Memoir '44 D-Day Landings Memoir '44 D-Day Landings

Forums

Search
Forums » Memoir '44 Online - English » scores !!!!
Show: Today's Posts 
  
AuthorTopic
mekke71
Junior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 12
Registered:
January 2006
scores !!!! Sat, 04 December 2010 19:11
hi

last night i played 8 games i won 6 and lost 2.
the scores i got by loosing 2 games was the scores i get by win 6.

btw i played a 2 lieutenant and me self is captain.

Do u get more scores if u play some one in our level and loose more if u loose to a lower lev.


Åge
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:scores !!!! Sun, 05 December 2010 01:04
mekke71 wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 22:11


Do u get more scores if u play some one in our level and loose more if u loose to a lower lev.

Åge


The score you get depends on several things: the difficulty of the side you choose to play, the skill level of your opponent, and how much you win by. It does not matter what your rank is.

So if you defeat someone who is a much higher skill level than you when you play a really tough battle (Omaha Beach as the Allies or something like that) and you keep them from getting any medals, your skill will jump way up! The opposite will also be true.

I hope this makes sense. Cool
      
Nightrain
Senior Member
Oberstleutnant

User Pages
Posts: 424
Registered:
October 2008
Re:scores !!!! Sun, 05 December 2010 01:08
That's true friend, the idea is to always challenge a higher skill player so you'll get the advantage of winning big and losing small, but in my opinion, this isn't really the right way of implementing ELO because unlike chess, M44 deals with different setup, randomized cards, and different dices distribution, therefore ELO can only be implemented after completing two games by flipping sides and not one. That way, everything is balanced and real skill can be correctly calculated.

Now, if we still want to calculate skill based only on each game, reward for outperformances should be much bigger, in a way that even losing can still give you skill.

because in lopsided maps like arnhem, omaha, or paris, to lose by 0-6 should be treated different as to lose by 5-6, or any map with lower odds, each medal should be counted.

Another thought for the final version Smile
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:scores !!!! Sun, 05 December 2010 01:22
Your score is not meant to be a big part of the game (which is why it isn't front-and-center). The more important element is having fun!!! The Achievements and Military Rank should help make things more fun. Cool
      
Nightrain
Senior Member
Oberstleutnant

User Pages
Posts: 424
Registered:
October 2008
Re:scores !!!! Sun, 05 December 2010 04:57
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 05 December 2010 07:22

Your score is not meant to be a big part of the game (which is why it isn't front-and-center). The more important element is having fun!!! The Achievements and Military Rank should help make things more fun. Cool


Jes,
the moment you decided to implement a Skill system, it became an important element of the game, otherwise, it might be better to not use it at all.

Now, to some people, this isn't important, and I myself also don't think it's really important, I even don't really care about achievement and military rank since playing is the real fun factor for me; however, to some other people, that could be a major factor as skill plays in role to decide ladder ranks, and it could be a heart-breaking moment to see how hard you fight in a losing battle and close to win but failed and watch -25 points gone away in the wind, and probably this could discourage people to play the underdog.

Since this is still a beta phase, I guess it's wise to collect all suggestions from every players and let DoW decide which one is best for all of us.

I just remember, that in our own King of the hill ladder game, Sam implemented a scoring system just like in Tennis, but of course, score/skill only counted after two games are completed, where the highest score are gained if you sweep two games and beat the higher seeded player. Maybe Sam can elaborate more about his scoring system Smile
      
sam1812
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 2177
Registered:
August 2006
Re:scores !!!! Sun, 05 December 2010 05:30
I've seen the formula the US Chess Federation uses for its ratings, and it was daunting to me. However, I used the basic concepts to create my Memoir rating system, which is specifically adapted for use in a tournament where everybody is playing 2-game matches of the same scenario, at the same time. Apart from those adaptations, it's conceptually similar to DOW's ELO formula.

The Ladder ratings have six basic components:

1. Number of medals won and lost as Allies.
2. Number of medals won and lost as Axis,
3. Number of figures won and lost as Allies.
4. Number of figures won and lost as Axis.
5. 200 point bonus, divided among all players who sweep their matches. (If there are 8 sweeps, it's divided 8 ways; if only one sweep, that lucky guy gets all 200 points for such an extraordinary feat.)
6. An adjustment based on the relative ratings of the two players. You get more credit for beating someone rated higher than you.

Factors 1-4 are weighted with exponents, so the biggest medal and figure differentials are rewarded most heavily. I chose the exponents based on experiments to see what gave everything reasonable relative importance.

Notice that the formula doesn't explicitly reward wins (except if they were sweeps). The player who lost 5-6 didn't really do that much worse than the one who won the game 6-5. Instead, the formula rewards dominant play.

Ratings start at 1000 for all new players, and have ranged from about 350 to 2000. The formula doesn't consider how many rated games the person has played. As a result, every round, one or two people go up by about 250 points.

      
caroper
Senior Member

Posts: 166
Registered:
April 2004
Re:scores !!!! Sun, 05 December 2010 22:11
I Personally think that joining a ladder should be optional and not compulsory.

Far too many elements of the Interface can be gamed themselves rather than Playing the Game. A case in point is the thread on Medals, with everyone listing how to attain each one, the next step is people saying I need the Arnhem badge, you let me win a decisive victory there and I will give you one in Omaha.

Next thing you know we have Cliques springing up, of players who wont play anyone with less than x Badges or Y Skill points, because they are more interested in gaming the system than playing the game.
      
philmcd
Member
Major

User Pages
Posts: 39
Registered:
November 2007
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 00:43
There is an inherent problem with the way that the merit points are calculated after a scenario.

1. The cost/benefit could lead to high ranked players only playing each other so that the win and loss of points is an acceptable risk.

I was ranked #1 a week ago, but accepted games against anyone who offered, cos I think that's in the spirit of the game. Trouble is, If I won a scenario I was gaining 3-5 points and if I lost I was losing 23-27 points. Consequently, despite continuing to win more than I lost, I slipped way down the rankings again. Though I'm on my way back up again now. I will continue to play anyone who has 3 honour or more cos I play for fun.

I can't help noticing that those at the top of the rankings haven't played in a fair few days (their # of games hasn't changed). Maybe they don't see any benefit Smile
      
sam1812
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 2177
Registered:
August 2006
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 03:00
caroper, twodifferent things are being talked about here.

DOW is calculating Ratings based on the results of people's games on M-Online. Even though they calculate it, you don't have to look at, or care about, your rating or other people's ratings.

The Ladder is a specific tournament on Vassal (which Tank Commander runs), and now there's a new Ladder (which Marnick runs) on M-Online. If somebody wants to join either of these Ladders, he has to specifically contact the organizer. (I believe the M-Online Ladder isn't taking new entries.)

Steve asked about the rating system I developed for the Vassal Ladder, so I explained how that works.
      
Caboose
Senior Member
First Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 1595
Registered:
May 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 06:52
And like some other betas, I suspect DoW, when everything has been fleshed out, probably will reset the rankings of all. Since there might (not saying there is or not) be some issues with rankings and all that. Remember, it is a BETA!!

So I wouldn't sweat much over rankings. And sadly some people put more merit into rankings than realize it is a game..PURE and simple.

Cab
p.s. and if you feel there is something wrong, FILL OUT a BUG REPORT!!

[Updated on: Mon, 06 December 2010 06:52]

      
caroper
Senior Member

Posts: 166
Registered:
April 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 10:35
Hi Sam, I am well aware of your Vassal ladder, and I think that is the way DoW should go, Optional. But by Giving everyone a score and awarding Rank and Medals, you are part of a ladder in this system with no option to just play a friendly game. As Phil said, if you play for fun or introduce new players you risk your ladder points, so if the ladder becomes important then no one will play for fun.
      
Valeroth
Junior Member
First Lieutenant

Posts: 7
Registered:
August 2007
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 16:02
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 19:22

Your score is not meant to be a big part of the game (which is why it isn't front-and-center). The more important element is having fun!!! The Achievements and Military Rank should help make things more fun. Cool


I have to reiterate what Jes said. If the skill rating is not important, then don't display it. Otherwise it will be important to a great many people.

For me it is not important until people will not play me because of my skill rating. If we reach a point where high skill level people won't play me because of fear of losing to much skill, or low skill people won't play me because they think it will be to hard, then I'm going to care... and I'm not going to like it.
      
gheintze
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 937
Registered:
August 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 16:26
caroper wrote on Sun, 05 December 2010 16:11

A case in point is the thread on Medals, with everyone listing how to attain each one, the next step is people saying I need the Arnhem badge, you let me win a decisive victory there and I will give you one in Omaha.



Are you suggesting that i take down the medal thread in the forums?

I thought that it would be helpful for people to know what goals to shoot for. I had a lot of fun trying to win objectives without ending the game by eliminating units -- it was an interesting lesson in strategy. Same with the Commando medal at St. Vith -- it's a different game when you only want to eliminate units with your special forces units.

I would hope that people wouldn't start to game the system. What's the point in earning a virtual medal the cheap way? I don't understand...

And regarding the skill discussion. I find it interesting, but I'm willing to play anyone who wants to compete. I don't mind giving advice to newcomers while I lose or getting trampled by a more experienced player at Mont Mouchet (my current trouble Laughing ).

My only frustration is playing against people who won't use the special units. I like to play them the way they are designed and feel like it wasn't a real victory if I didn't have to beat the better units.

Geoff
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 17:35
Valeroth wrote on Mon, 06 December 2010 19:02

I have to reiterate what Jes said. If the skill rating is not important, then don't display it. Otherwise it will be important to a great many people.

For me it is not important until people will not play me because of my skill rating. If we reach a point where high skill level people won't play me because of fear of losing to much skill, or low skill people won't play me because they think it will be to hard, then I'm going to care... and I'm not going to like it.


So here's the million dollar question...Do people think the Skill rating should be removed completely? Confused

I believe the whole Skill Rating system is not emphasized on purpose so that we don't run into the same problems in Memoir '44 Online that we see in Ticket to Ride: high ranked players being exclusive and refusing to play anyone below the top 100, or the top 50, or whatever. I agree that this attitude takes away the fun for me and apparently for some others.

However, some people will want this measure of their 'skill' so it makes sense that Days of Wonder would provide it. But apparently keeping the skill ranking in the 'background' behind the Military Rank and the Achievements system hasn't kept people from focusing attention on the skill...so does that mean it shouldn't even be available? I'm not sure...

We already have a tournament for Memoir '44 Online being run by marnick and getting into it has nothing to do with your skill rank. Instead, people are randomly assigned opponents from the people who signed up and the purpose is fun! I hope that we'll see many more tournaments and that they will also focus on fun and community instead of becoming exclusive events for high skill leveled players.

In the end, I hope it will be the community who chooses where the focus of Memoir '44 Online will be! Will it be on the skill system or the fun aspect? I think there will be enough opponents online that we can all avoid the 'exclusive' players as much as they avoid us! Very Happy
      
gheintze
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 937
Registered:
August 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 17:41
One of the interesting things about M'44 is getting a grasp for the size of the community. Many of the names I recognize from the forums -- Jesse, Malcolm, Stevens, Steve Nighttrain, Randwulf, etc... -- but those are far outweighed by the number of people online.

The community is much bigger than I ever conceived. It's up to us whether it is a community of fun (play all comers for fun, have tournaments, etc...) or if we become like TTR (complaining endlessly in the forums, only worry about skill and world rank).

I posted the medal thread to encourage people to go after them for the fun and the challenge. I hope that is how people are using it.

I also suspect that the M'44 users who frequent the forums are a small subset of the players online, but that's just my gut feeling.

Geoff
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 17:49
gheintze wrote on Mon, 06 December 2010 20:41

One of the interesting things about M'44 is getting a grasp for the size of the community. Many of the names I recognize from the forums -- Jesse, Malcolm, Stevens, Steve Nighttrain, Randwulf, etc... -- but those are far outweighed by the number of people online.

The community is much bigger than I ever conceived. It's up to us whether it is a community of fun (play all comers for fun, have tournaments, etc...) or if we become like TTR (complaining endlessly in the forums, only worry about skill and world rank).

I posted the medal thread to encourage people to go after them for the fun and the challenge. I hope that is how people are using it.

I also suspect that the M'44 users who frequent the forums are a small subset of the players online, but that's just my gut feeling.

Geoff


I agree completely, Geoff! I do believe that those of us on the forum are a small number of M'44 Online players (though I've recently seen lots of new posters brought to the forum by the game).

I have definitely enjoyed working to get the Achievements and I agree that as the community it is up to us, to an extent, how the Online game feels and what we focus on. But like you said, many players are only playing online and may not be on the forums to hear our discussions about what we think should be focused on!

In the end, if the game turns into a military version of TTR online with bickering and a focus on their skill and world rank I would support the decision to remove the skill entirely. If people can keep things in perspective I don't mind having the skill system in place.
      
gheintze
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 937
Registered:
August 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 17:53
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 06 December 2010 11:49

In the end, if the game turns into a military version of TTR online with bickering and a focus on their skill and world rank I would support the decision to remove the skill entirely. If people can keep things in perspective I don't mind having the skill system in place.


I couldn't agree more. I'm not going to get overly concerned with the skill level, especially since it seems extremely fickle.

A few days ago I was up to #6 (which I couldn't believe), but since then I've been trying to win as the Axis at Arnhem (finally did Surprised ) and as the Allies at Mont Mouchet (still trying Crying or Very Sad ). Now i'm #87 even though I've been playing hard scenarios. I just can't be bothered getting perturbed about that...

Geoff
      
LooneyLlama
Senior Member
Lucky Bastard

User Pages
Posts: 660
Registered:
March 2008
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 20:55
I have to agree with Valeroth. I play the game for fun and couldn't care less about rankings. If you want to give achievements out, that's fine. But if rankings cause people not to play with me, I would be very upset. When I sit down to play a few games, I don't want to wait around forever to find a game because I'm not good enough or too good. This isn't chess. There are way too many variables out of our control(luck of cards, luck of the dice, scenario selections) to tell where somebody ranks. Here's someone hoping they get rid of the ranking system.
      
ad79
Senior Member
Major Howard

User Pages
Posts: 785
Registered:
September 2007
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 20:56
Geoff, If you don't do the achievement list, someone else will and DOW's plan is to use tham as motivation. I think achievements are a cool feature in the game and it is impossible to avoid someone taking advantage of the system. But I am certain the majority of players will play fair and be a ruthless opponent and try to win while enjoying the game.

Ranking isn't important for me cause I play this game for fun, adn if that involves playing and losing against new players, low ranked players or high ranked players then so be it. As long as I have fun I'll play anyone.

I signed up for the M44 King of the Beta to try a tournament. I promptly went on to lose in round 1 against garibaldi Italian which had a lower skill rating than me at the time, but it was exhilarating to play the Allies knowing I had to win 4-0 without losing 9 figures. I had great fun in that game even though I lost 10 figures and conceded 1 medal. The tension was great.

The thing I have taken away from the closed beta and into the open beta is this: I have become a better Memoir'44 player by playing against different people with different playing styles.
I have become better at taking advantage of my opponents choices. I have become a more cautious Memoir player. But I still enjoy the challenge this game gives me, online or in it's boardgame from.

And taking on Brummbar in Arnheim as the Axis is always going to be a fun challenge, no matter the sklill rating or ranking either of us have.

I also enjoy the challenge Johnny gives me in the solo mode.

Stig Morten
      
gheintze
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 937
Registered:
August 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 21:03
Hi Stig,

Thanks for the reply. It seems that most of us are on the same page with ignoring or paying slight attention to the rankings.

I also can't imagine anybody sandbagging a game so their opponent could get a medal. I had played to three 5-4 losses at Arnhem Bridge before I won. In one of the games, my opponent was very aggressive and came out of the towns after my infantry, and I still lost! Everything really has to go your way to win there...

Hopefully, the rankings haven't become a problem yet and i hope it stays that way. And going after the achievements was a lot of fun. I hope to find more soon...

BTW Stig, I hope to catch you online sometime to play. I've been looking forward to competing with you -- what times are you usually online?

Geoff
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 957
Registered:
December 2006
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 21:05
I play for fun. I don't care about the ranking, but it hasn't necessarily have to go. Leave it as it is. If you think they're important, look at them, otherwise don't ...
(Simple)
      
Brummbar44
DoW Content Provider
Artillery Specialist

User Pages
Posts: 1129
Registered:
June 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 21:13
ad79 wrote on Mon, 06 December 2010 11:56



And taking on Brummbar in Arnheim as the Axis is always going to be a fun challenge, no matter the sklill rating or ranking either of us have.



Hear, hear! Always a pleasure to play you Stig. And that goes for the rest of you out there as well, always a pleasure folks.

And that is why I play. I enjoy meeting the names I see on the forums (even though it is online). I feel a connection there when we actually get to play not just talk about the game.

I used to advocate the rating system, but I ignore it largely now and just play. I'm not even concerned about chasing achievements. If I get one, bonus. My main goal is to have an engaging game of Memoir '44 (wish the dice would understand that though, LOL!).

So thanks to all the great players I've already had the opportunity to play...and to all I have yet to play!

Hope to see you on the field!

(ps - don't be shy...if you see me, pick a fight!)
      
caroper
Senior Member

Posts: 166
Registered:
April 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 21:27
Hi Geoff, I meant no offence by siting your thread and didn't wish to imply that you guys are cheating, far from it, I love that thread and it got me to thinking how that could become a game in itself, rather like hunting easter-eggs in computer games.
Many people like to have a ranking system many do not, I am in the latter category, I like Games and sports for fun not glory.
I prefer the Tournament system where you specifically sign up and you play by rules and are awarded points. Normal games then have no effect on your ranking and you are free to play against anyone, but in the Tournament you have to play specific people to advance.
Bottom line is keep the Rating System but allow the players to select if a game is match play, and therefor they have to play both sides, and the game is ranked, or free play which has no baring on either players rank.


      
gheintze
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 937
Registered:
August 2004
Re:scores !!!! Mon, 06 December 2010 21:29
No problem, caroper. I didn't think you meant that, i just wanted to make sure that my intentions were clear.

I think I'll just ignore the rankings and play all challengers. But please use the special rules and units!

Geoff
      
Randwulf
DoW Content Provider
Major

User Pages
Posts: 1361
Registered:
March 2005
Re:scores !!!! Tue, 07 December 2010 08:08
I do think the ranking scoring is broken...

Tonight I played Arracourt twice. First as the Germans, and it was down to the last man at 5 to 5. He missed, I missed, he ganged up and got the last kill for a 6 to 5 win. Was a great game.

I go down 17 points, he go's up 17.

we swap... and I trash him 6 to 0 a complete blow out.

I win 10 points.

Between the two games I had 11 medals to his 6 but I was at a net loss of 7 points????

Because my ranking was higher than his???

No, this system is broken.

It may work for TTR but not for M44.

It is in no way representative of any skill at this game.

It does not even take into count the number of medals or the out performs of each game when you lose that I can see.

The game is made to swap sides, but the system is not reflective of that.

I don't care about the numbers, but many will, and it is flawed.

Find someone, beat him and don't swap, just move on to the next victim, only play those of higher rank, you may get lucky and rake it in...

That is not the spirit of the game.

      
stevens
Senior Member
Omaha Victory

User Pages
Posts: 2937
Registered:
February 2007
Re:scores !!!! Tue, 07 December 2010 15:08
I must agree with Randwulf 100%.

The scoring in Memoir Online is definitely off kilter. I beat a fellow today in Arracourt with the Axis and I get 9 points. He beats me in the rematch and I lose 32 points. Anyway, it is a good thing that points don't count for anything!!!

Laughing Laughing Laughing

Game on!

[Updated on: Tue, 07 December 2010 19:15]

      
Oros
Member
Michael Wittmann

User Pages
Posts: 75
Registered:
August 2007
Re:scores !!!! Tue, 07 December 2010 16:29
Agree.

The Scenarios are imbalance, so we need to switch side and rematch.

But before we do this, we're already been "punished" by the score. Even winning the 2nd game can't help us to gain the same score back.

Sorry but please allowed me to say it: it really made people have less interest to play the diffcult side, with new/low-score players.

I know it is all about "Good Luck and have fun", but the score itself made me hard to take it easy and don't care about gains and losses.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 December 2010 16:36]

      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:scores !!!! Tue, 07 December 2010 19:43
Oros wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 19:29


I know it is all about "Good Luck and have fun", but the score itself made me hard to take it easy and don't care about gains and losses.


So, what would you think about the "score system" going away completely? Rolling Eyes You are currently ranked #2, which means that you won't want to play anyone with a very low score because if you lose to them (even as the Allies in Omaha Beach) you'll be losing a lot of points! Is that still fun for you, or does it make the game more stressful?

I don't know that the Skills will ever be taken away completely, but I agree that with them available I have a tendency to notice them and I do care a little bit when I see that I just gained 34 skill points, or lost 25 skill points for a hard fought loss.

Personally, I would be just as happy not to have any kind of world ranking system but I don't know that everyone would agree with me. I can see the attraction of the ranking system, so I'll understand if people find it a really fun way to gauge their progress.
      
Mighty Jim 83
Senior Member
Starshiy Leytenant

User Pages
Posts: 333
Registered:
August 2009
Re:scores !!!! Tue, 07 December 2010 20:49
Where is a player's rank displayed? I can see their score if i click on their name in the menu, but if someone invites me for a game, I can't even do that.

I admit I'm sometimes puzzled by the way the system gives/takes points, but I don't think the display of them is particularly prominent.
      
SgtBob49
Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 64
Registered:
December 2009
Re:scores !!!! Tue, 07 December 2010 20:59
I agree with Philmcd 100%. I play the game for fun and play anyone with 3 Honor stars or more regardless of rank or skill points. I do not worry about points etc. The game is to be played for fun and that is what I am doing. The skill point system is flawed anyway as many members have pointed out. The purpose of the Beta is to play for fun and work out the bugs. Best way to play is to swap sides after each battle as the game was intended for and enjoy the games!

SgtBob49
      
Randwulf
DoW Content Provider
Major

User Pages
Posts: 1361
Registered:
March 2005
Re:scores !!!! Tue, 07 December 2010 21:23
Hey Jim

Click on your name, or anyone's name in the forums.

you will then see the front page of their profile, and off to the side you can see their ranking score.


It really is hard to find and really does not matter at all.

If folks want a ranking system, there has to be a better way.

      
Oros
Member
Michael Wittmann

User Pages
Posts: 75
Registered:
August 2007
Re:scores !!!! Wed, 08 December 2010 02:50
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 13:43


So, what would you think about the "score system" going away completely? Rolling Eyes You are currently ranked #2, which means that you won't want to play anyone with a very low score because if you lose to them (even as the Allies in Omaha Beach) you'll be losing a lot of points! Is that still fun for you, or does it make the game more stressful?


Just like you said, it does make the game more stressful, but I still like to play with you guys, no matter your score is high or low, even the defeats make me fall.

I don't know exactly the score system should be sustained or not, but the Ranking do made people eager to win. The people who eager to win would try some unfair ways to get this, as Randwulf said: "Find someone, beat him and don't swap, just move on to the next victim."

If "switch/rematch system" is available, I think it would make ranking and score more interesting and fair.

      
tank commander
Senior Member
I Love Pineapples

User Pages
Posts: 2005
Registered:
October 2004
Re:scores !!!! Thu, 09 December 2010 11:51
stevens wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 09:08

I must agree with Randwulf 100%.

The scoring in Memoir Online is definitely off kilter. I beat a fellow today in Arracourt with the Axis and I get 9 points. He beats me in the rematch and I lose 32 points. Anyway, it is a good thing that points don't count for anything!!!

Laughing Laughing Laughing

Game on!



It takes into account the scenario, the side played and the relative ratings of the players. But what about the cards played and hit pct of dice rolled?

In one game I faced a string of powerful cards - DHQs and such where my opponent was able to order 4+ units a turn and throw a lot of lead downrange. I had to battle back with mainly probes. The after battle hit pcts were 42% for me vs 62% for him. I lost badly -- ran into a dice and card buzzsaw when my own cards and dice were trash. Was this taken into account when awarding points won or lost for that game?

A game program may be able to take these additional factors into account.

Even the best most experienced player can lose to a newbie under those conditions. I witnessed this in person at WBC '09 when a player with 1 month's experience rode his hot dice to the finals table.
      
sam1812
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 2177
Registered:
August 2006
Re:scores !!!! Thu, 09 December 2010 13:08
tank commander wrote on Thu, 09 December 2010 05:51

It takes into account the scenario, the side played and the relative ratings of the players. But what about the cards played and hit pct of dice rolled?

For people who don't want to suffer from the luck of the cards and dice, there's always chess. Smile

Such fine adjustments can't possibly be taken into account in a rating system. However, a scenario that is well-designed for "skill" purposes will require enough rolls for the law of large numbers to somewhat even out the luck.

(Of course, there are certain scenarios that are ruled by the luck of which player draws the Armor Assault. That's a separate category.)
      
stevens
Senior Member
Omaha Victory

User Pages
Posts: 2937
Registered:
February 2007
Re:scores !!!! Thu, 09 December 2010 20:12
Quote:

I must agree with Randwulf 100%.

The scoring in Memoir Online is definitely off kilter. I beat a fellow today in Arracourt with the Axis and I get 9 points. He beats me in the rematch and I lose 32 points. Anyway, it is a good thing that points don't count for anything!!!
Laughing Laughing Laughing


Unfortunately, sarcasm doesn't translate well in online forums. I apologize for my attempt at it. I should have been more direct in my first comment, so here goes....

I am sure that DOW has spent a considerable amount of both time and resources to come up with a reasonable and fair scoring system. The problem is that no matter what kind of system they came up with, someone would take issue with the statistics and how it didn't favor their particular interest.

The reality also exists that no matter what system is put in place, those who figure out a way to tweak the system to enhance their particular score will be tempted to do so, because that provides them with a reward. Not everyone plays just for fun after all. And even those say they do (including myself) would still rather have more wins than losses.

As long as we are competing, which IS what we are doing after all with our little plastic men and computer boardgame simulations, there will be a tension between playing well and performing well. Our opponent may acknowledge our good play in a narrow and well fought battle where we don't get as many medals, but the scoring system may, at least in our minds, PENALIZE us.

Consider this -
Where else do you have the opportunity to play a game you enjoy with hundreds of people from all over the globe for pennies on the dollar?

Take time to enjoy this gift. And if you want to even up the odds, start or join a group tournament where everyone plays everyone else.

I am so thankful for the good mentors and friends I have made online playing Memoir 44, who have encouraged, cajoled and humored me through wins and losses. And I am thankful to DOW for their continued support of the game and the community.

Play On!!

[Updated on: Sat, 11 December 2010 20:21]

      
philmcd
Member
Major

User Pages
Posts: 39
Registered:
November 2007
Re:scores !!!! Thu, 09 December 2010 20:18
If the ranking system can't be made to MEAN something... uh meaningful Smile then it might as well be scrapped.

Personally I would favour keeping it, but ditching the current system of calculation.

Might sound complcated (but bear in mind the computer does the brain work).....

If you win, you score the reciprocal of the percentage that your side normally wins the scenario.

Lets say that a scenario is won 24% of the time by Axis and 76% of the time by the Allies.

An Axis Win would gain you 7.6 points or a loss would lose you 2.4 points

An Allied win would gain you 2.4 points or a loss would lose you 7.6 points

It can therefore be seen that if (as is hoped) opponents play both sides of a scenario, You can win exactly 10 points if you win with both sides, and lose exactly 10 points if you lose with both sides. A win and a loss would result in either a small gain or a small loss of points. Removing the wild swings currently in evidence.


This would be a far better system than the current one because the difficulty of the scenario is the predominant factor, and better players would tend to rise to the top.

To prevent the table being dominated by those who have played most games, you simply divide the point total by the number of games. Only players with minimum 25 games in any calendar month shown in rankings. then players can't just sit on their hands when they get to the top. You could have monthly and annual rankings.

With regard to penalties for playing 'weaker' players, that's just lame. I started M44 online with 300 plays of the boardgame under my belt for Petes sake, and I suspect the majority of online players have experience.

Just a suggestion.....

[Updated on: Thu, 09 December 2010 20:44]

      
Axelb9
Junior Member
Major

User Pages
Posts: 25
Registered:
November 2010
Re:scores !!!! Sat, 11 December 2010 00:13
Having a ranking system in an internet game is a plus. Most people who play online are really keen on seeing their ranking and how they fair against other peole. However making a ranking system based on a foundationally flawed idea will just turn a lot of people away in disgust. If this ranking is based on ELO than the thinking behind it is totally flawed as ÉLŐ (as it is spelled correctly) was mant to calculate scores in chess or any other game where both sides have equal chances at the beginning. Here most scenarios are intentionally lopsided and unless both sides are played and only the final medal score compared using ÉLŐ for skillscore calculation leads nowhere with regards to having anything to do with skill.
      
    
Previous Topic:BEL bug
Next Topic:Have DoW lost the plot?
Goto Forum: