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marnick
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Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Mon, 17 January 2011 15:24
Because in non-competitive play, it's just not fun to have only cards on one flank where no action is happening. I've had friends quit playing because they had crap cards so continuing was pointless. When the goal is to have fun, something should be available to at least participate in the battle.

I'm trying to figure something out, but I just can't seem to get it right. Skipping a turn for a full mulligan is OP compared to the base rule that you can only switch one card. Taking hits for mulligan is maybe too much of a drawback.

So... anyone got a good houserule that is a bit balanced?

[Updated on: Mon, 17 January 2011 15:25]

      
Nygaard
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Mon, 17 January 2011 17:40
Any card can be used to activate any one unit no matter the flank.
Playing a Skirmish is still better, since you get to pick the best of two cards, but this rules allows you to always do SOMETHING.

      
Randwulf
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Mon, 17 January 2011 17:45
Most hands are from 4 to 6 cards, if you have a hand full of rights and no units there as I have had many times. It can be very frustrating.

Try this. Discard two

You see the two cards discarded, and if ether of them could be used, then the discard is not allowed.

and draw two, end of turn.

It is not as game changing as a whole new hand. And keeps folks from card hunting.
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 08:43
Is this REALLY that big an issue?

I've played hundreds of games of memoir, and often had hands of cards that have severely limited what I can do -Assault right when only one unit is one the right, Armour Assault with only infantry etc - But can only recall 1 occassion where I had to discard a card because there was nothing at all I could order- that came in a SFTF which had all the troops in one section, and after several plays, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that well set-up.

If you know you're running low on cards, think a turn or two ahead, and move a unit to a 2-sector hex or something. But if you get stuck completely, I'd say the chances are that you've not planned ahead well enough, and if it is just sheer bad luck, then it's rare enough not to matter.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 08:52
Speaking for myself here...the few times I've run into trouble and had absolutely nobody to order with the cards I had in my hand, it was because I hadn't been paying attention and I backed myself into a tight spot. Very rarely am I stuck simply because of the 'luck factor', though it does happen sometimes.

But for those wanting a house rule to help when they've gotten themselves into trouble, I've heard of people handing out a few tokens at the start of the game that can be traded to turn any card into a Recon 1 (to allow you to draw two cards and pick the best one).

In the end, it's all about having fun...so even if you have to change the rules quite a bit, make sure it's fun and you'll be fine! Cool
      
Phread
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 10:37
Getting poor cards or cards that don't suit your battle plan is all part of the game.

Isn't it supposed to simulate the fog of war when orders don't or can't get through?

What we do, here, is simply play & therefore discard an unwanted/unusable card and hope to draw a better card.
Many times I've been smashed because I didn't have the right orders to give to counter an attack.

It is always that one hasn't planned ahead. Sometimes one never had the cards to plan ahead. That happens. Other times I've had the best possible sequence of cards that support the perfect strategy and annihilates my opponent. This is all part of the game.

A bad run of cards is memorable, so is an excellent run of cards. I have had both and expect to have them again.

IMHO there isn't a need for a house rule. Simply play a card make no move and draw another.

Most importantly keep smiling and have fun
      
marnick
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 13:05
The most clear example of my problem is the following, which I've run into a couple of times in different scenario's.

Pegasus Bridge, Germans. You draw 4 cards for the left flank. First 3 turns the allies completely roll up your left flank and you drew 2 other left flank cards. You can now do absolutely nothing.

Every turn you discard a card you pray that the next card is useful. If it isn't it's just another discard and pretty much limits your hand to one card while the allies kill you 4 to 0. This is by no means a fun game.

My friend, who usually plays the axis, hates this kind of situation and I understand that. We were talking about mulliganing but unless there's a clear rule we can use for that, either house or official to standardise, he doesn't want to solve this ad hoc, which results in more un-fun games. When you play 20 games, you encounter this at least once.
      
Nygaard
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 13:58
marnick wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 13:05

The most clear example of my problem is the following, which I've run into a couple of times in different scenario's.

Pegasus Bridge, Germans. You draw 4 cards for the left flank. First 3 turns the allies completely roll up your left flank and you drew 2 other left flank cards. You can now do absolutely nothing.



Mère St. Eglise also but with center cards... And again for the Germans.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 14:13
Nygaard wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 16:58

marnick wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 13:05

The most clear example of my problem is the following, which I've run into a couple of times in different scenario's.

Pegasus Bridge, Germans. You draw 4 cards for the left flank. First 3 turns the allies completely roll up your left flank and you drew 2 other left flank cards. You can now do absolutely nothing.



Mère St. Eglise also but with center cards... And again for the Germans.


Yes, this does happen sometimes but I've never had a game where I couldn't do anything; just games where I couldn't do what I wanted to do...which is still annoying. Razz

Do none of the rules suggested so far work for you? Cool
      
Shoegaze99
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 16:04
Mighty Jim 83 wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 02:43

If you know you're running low on cards, think a turn or two ahead, and move a unit to a 2-sector hex or something.

Yeah, on a number of occasions I've seen a tight spot coming two or three turns away, so I've shifted units to a new sector. Maybe you're stacked with right sector cards even though you don't need them. Get troops to that side of the board ASAP so you can burn those cards and get something useful out of them!

I get the frustration with the situation described in this thread, but I've found it to be pretty rare and as others have mentioned, it's an intentional part of the game. Consider it supply line problems and communication issues.

It's probably an issue primarily in scenarios where most of the focus/action/objectives are confined to one sector. You see that from time to time.
      
SirKirby
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Tue, 18 January 2011 19:24
Poor scenario design can also multiply the effects of a bad hand. Look at this one, for example, where the Germans have only one unit on their right:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=21

If you happen to draw 3 out of 4 right flank cards, you're basically ####ed.

Given the mechanics of the game, scenario designers just shouldn't set games up like that!

I don't think enough attention is always given to the subject of design:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=7762&start=0

A house rule we play is that you can discard any three cards before the game starts and get two replacements, with your hand being made up next turn.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Thu, 20 January 2011 23:58
SirKirby wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 13:24

Poor scenario design can also multiply the effects of a bad hand. Look at this one, for example, where the Germans have only one unit on their right:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=21

If you happen to draw 3 out of 4 right flank cards, you're basically ####ed.

Given the mechanics of the game, scenario designers just shouldn't set games up like that!

I don't think enough attention is always given to the subject of design:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=7762&start=0

A house rule we play is that you can discard any three cards before the game starts and get two replacements, with your hand being made up next turn.


I don't think the Twin Villages necessarily suffers from bad design (although I haven't played it in a while). Maybe there was a reason for few units on the Axis right, such as to force the attack through the middle on Lausdell Crossroads so as to match the Historical Background. Just a thought.

But I sympathize with your view point. I generally find that scenarios that have one side with 4 cards are driven more by luck than those with more reasonable sets of cards. Well, maybe not luck, but I mean that the outcomes, say from playing the scenario multiple times can vary more widely. I would prefer the cards generally be 5 or 6 and the authors find other ways to impair one side or another, if necessary. I know this supposedly simulates fog of war, but M44 is not a simulation game, and this effect is not necessary (for me).
      
SirKirby
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Fri, 21 January 2011 09:33
No matter what the historical realism is or was, M44 really does need more even spacing of the units at the start: the system of random cards requires it or it immediately unbalances the game and puts one side at a disadvantage and risks frustrating one of the players.

Giving one side only 4 cards really ought to be a design no-no as well.
      
Phread
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Fri, 21 January 2011 10:44
SirKirby wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 22:18

Giving one side only 4 cards really ought to be a design no-no as well.


I don't agree with you good Sir.

Four cards might have a genuine historical basis for a scenario.
It may reflect the quality of the command & control system of one or both sides at the time & place of the scenario.

Four cards does make play difficult. It does increase the "luck-of-the-draw" factor, but the dice are always a big factor too.
Many times I won with bad cards because my opponent had bad rolls and I had good rolls, or I've lost with good cards because I couldn't hit units.

My records (loss) are a 16% hit rate and a 75% hit rate (won). This had more effect than the number of cards.

Twin Villages - for example as I've played it a lot recently online - is quite balanced, believe it or not. The Axis, with 4 cards, have a good chance of winning with decent die rolls and reasonable cards.

Four cards isn't easy, but I wouldn't bad that setup from a scenario.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Fri, 21 January 2011 11:17
When i played CinC at dissaster at dieppe overlord on vassal a couple of weeks ago as Allies, i had only 7 cards at the game start 3 of them where recon 1 cards, i played the recon 1 cards as quickly as possible and even got with the 3 cards i drew 2 recon 1 cards again and a probe 2 card.
This only to illustrate that even with bad cards and dices the object stays the same, do as well as you can and if you have bad luck, there is always the next game.
And yes i lost heavely Laughing
      
ad79
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Re:Does anyone have a good mulligan houserule? Fri, 21 January 2011 13:23
SirKirby wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 19:24

Poor scenario design can also multiply the effects of a bad hand. Look at this one, for example, where the Germans have only one unit on their right:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=21

If you happen to draw 3 out of 4 right flank cards, you're basically ####ed.

Given the mechanics of the game, scenario designers just shouldn't set games up like that!




I have played this scenario a few times online now, and a situation with only right cards is a challenge.

I think we need advice from Sun Tzu and the ART OF WAR. If you are weak you need to look strong. I would use that unit on the right to pester the closest town, and hope the Allied player responds to the attack by doing something on that flank. Hopefully you manage to keep him occupied long enough to get a better hand.

The times when I have found myself with an empty section and nothing to do, it has been because I have depended too much on getting cards for a sustained attack. If I have units in my left flank and I attack into the center without cards to support me, It's my fault. I do such things from time to time. Sometimes I win, most often I fail horribly. Laughing

I would propose the token rule Jesse mentioned. 2 or 3 tokens that can turn any card into a Recon-1 in the section of your choice would be a good way. You can not play use those tokens two turns in a row.

For me, that doesn't mind that I can't do anything from time to time, this problem seems strange, but if it concerns you and your opponents, it should be fixed.

Another rule you can use is to use command tokens.

Give each side as many tokens as you they have cards.
Play a section card(or Infantry Assault) in a section you don't have units. Discard 1 token to switch 1 of the orders on the cards to another section. Discard 2 tokens to switch 2 of the orders to another section.
Discard 3 tokens to switch 3 of the orders to another section. And so on and so on or limit it to 3 units per turn.

This should ensure that the side with limited command(fewer cards) has a lower ability to do this. It would also help in scenarios like Twin Villages.

Stig Morten
      
    
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