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boersma8
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February 2005
Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Fri, 21 January 2011 14:10
ad79 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 14:04

I think the camouflage card is a good one. Nice to be able to protect week units againt artillery.

The thing I like the most about these winter combat cards is the Bitter Resistance ability. It is really great to be able to ignore a flag. And equally pesky when your opponent does so. A fine way to protect bjectives.




Yes, it is a very fun little rule. Not to be a nitpicker, though, but isn't this (Bitter resistance)more typical for the Battle of the Bulge rather than for winter battles in general? My point being on the one hand the expansion focuses on the BoTB on the other it claims to be suitable for recreating other (read Russian front) winter battles as well...I don't really see the latter reflected...
      
Shoegaze99
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Fri, 21 January 2011 15:01
stevens wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 06:18

My favorite part is the new breakthrough card deck for BREAKTHROUGH format games. They give you extra moves, which I believe better enhance the Fun and playability factor of these scenarios,

I'm glad to hear you say this. I have yet to use the Breakthrough deck but I have to confess, I had misgivings when I saw the additional movement those cards allow. It seemed to me that by extending unit movement you effectively make the board smaller, rendering null the impact of having a deeper board in the first place. (Though it doesn't impact firing range, which is still a big factor.) The more deliberate pace of Breakthrough games and the fact that you had to more closely manage unit movement lest you leave someone stranded in enemy territory is one of the things that appeal to me about the format. Glad your experience with the cards has been positive.
      
boersma8
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Fri, 21 January 2011 16:08
Shoegaze99 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 15:01

stevens wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 06:18

My favorite part is the new breakthrough card deck for BREAKTHROUGH format games. They give you extra moves, which I believe better enhance the Fun and playability factor of these scenarios,

I'm glad to hear you say this. I have yet to use the Breakthrough deck but I have to confess, I had misgivings when I saw the additional movement those cards allow. It seemed to me that by extending unit movement you effectively make the board smaller, rendering null the impact of having a deeper board in the first place. (Though it doesn't impact firing range, which is still a big factor.) The more deliberate pace of Breakthrough games and the fact that you had to more closely manage unit movement lest you leave someone stranded in enemy territory is one of the things that appeal to me about the format. Glad your experience with the cards has been positive.


"On the move" only comes into play with a very limited number of cards and even when it does it only applies to one unit at a time, so it certainly doesn't undo the effect of the breakthrough boards too much! No need to worry! It does however provide with that little bit of extra mobility (e.g. to get out of harm's way) in a sector you don't have any cards for or have much "better" cards to play out!
      
ad79
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Fri, 21 January 2011 18:54
boersma8 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 14:10

ad79 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 14:04

I think the camouflage card is a good one. Nice to be able to protect week units againt artillery.

The thing I like the most about these winter combat cards is the Bitter Resistance ability. It is really great to be able to ignore a flag. And equally pesky when your opponent does so. A fine way to protect bjectives.




Yes, it is a very fun little rule. Not to be a nitpicker, though, but isn't this (Bitter resistance)more typical for the Battle of the Bulge rather than for winter battles in general? My point being on the one hand the expansion focuses on the BoTB on the other it claims to be suitable for recreating other (read Russian front) winter battles as well...I don't really see the latter reflected...


This extends beyond my historical knowledge, but you are probably correct. I like Bitter Resistance for the impact it has on play, not for it's historical correctness, but that is me.
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Fri, 21 January 2011 20:05
ad79 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 12:54

boersma8 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 14:10

ad79 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 14:04

I think the camouflage card is a good one. Nice to be able to protect week units againt artillery.

The thing I like the most about these winter combat cards is the Bitter Resistance ability. It is really great to be able to ignore a flag. And equally pesky when your opponent does so. A fine way to protect bjectives.




Yes, it is a very fun little rule. Not to be a nitpicker, though, but isn't this (Bitter resistance)more typical for the Battle of the Bulge rather than for winter battles in general? My point being on the one hand the expansion focuses on the BoTB on the other it claims to be suitable for recreating other (read Russian front) winter battles as well...I don't really see the latter reflected...


This extends beyond my historical knowledge, but you are probably correct. I like Bitter Resistance for the impact it has on play, not for it's historical correctness, but that is me.


I might be misunderstanding this conversation (and apologies if that's the case!), but I think bitter resistance would be incredibly relevant on the Eastern front, although more so in the later (late 1942-45) war. While it's true that the Russians, for various reasons, were driven back quite easily early in the war, their resistance did stiffen (bitterly, one might say Smile ) at places like Stalingrad, for example -- arguably the bitterest European fighting of the war. Likewise, as the Russians drove the Germans back inexorably into Germany, German resistance stiffened in and around the Fatherland...but by then the difference in men and material was too severe for the resistance to matter much.
      
ISOisNo1
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Fri, 21 January 2011 20:05
I wonder if the "On the move" cards take away some of the decision making that makes M44 interesting. Less experienced players tend to go for the attack dice instead of using some of the orders to move units into cover or move artillery forward into a good long-term position. When you have cards that basically force you to make those "quality moves" for free, you might end up with a more simplistic game. It also makes the games longer since you can retreat your wounded units "for free".

I haven´t played much Battlelore, but in that game´s breakthrough format (called "epic") you have the chance to play two section cards at the same time. The benefit is that you have to wheigh attacking with all possible units against longer term positioning.
      
Thuddeus
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Sat, 22 January 2011 05:03
Boersma, it's good to know that you are you!
      
sniperscout
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Sun, 23 January 2011 14:21
I do like the WW expansion and I do think that DOW is doing a good job on developing the game.

However, one of the core reason I bought into the game was because it used minitures rather than tokens. As such I was dissapointed that there were no TD minitures with WW (although I was of course aware of this before I bought it)

It does seem a long time since the Med Theatre was released and, as I have mentioned other threads, I strongly feel that an Italian army pack, French army pack and an Equipment pack (miniatures for TD'S, mortars, MG's 88mm etc etc) are now essential. This is purely my own opinion and YMMV Smile

To put this is context I think that the whole C&C concept is a good one. I have both M44 and Battle Cry. But I would not buy C&C Ancients nor C&C Nap because miniatures are not involved.

I hope that this does not seem too much off topic

Regards

Mark
      
Thuddeus
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Sun, 23 January 2011 19:01
On topic:

I'm a big fan of Winter Wars. I love the added terrain, which is needed to play those breakthrough scenarios. I love the breakthrough deck with the "on the move" additions. And I love the focused scenarios that came with the pack. They can easly be translated into a super "Bulge" campaign.

Hijack:

I agree that it would be fun to have minis that represent the various special units (mg, mortar, tank destroyers, mobile artillery). I use single 1:144 scale minis for these units and add overlord tokens as hit counters, but 10ish mm generic minis would be better. And they would provide DoW with another expansion to sell us.

[Updated on: Sun, 23 January 2011 19:04]

      
Shoegaze99
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Mon, 24 January 2011 02:46
Thuddeus wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 13:01

I love the focused scenarios that came with the pack. They can easly be translated into a super "Bulge" campaign.

Between the WW pack, the original/air pack-revised scenarios, and Breakthrough, we've got 10 official Bulge scenarios and 5 official Bulge scenarios in Breakthrough format. Fifteen in all. Not bad!

I think folks have speculated time and again that if a second campaign book happens it will have a Bulge campaign. Considering how many Bulge scenarios are already available, it's easy to envision a truly EPIC Bulge Grand Campaign when you combine existing scenarios with another 10 or 12 created for a campaign.

Sure would be fun.
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:First thoughts on winter wars expansion Mon, 24 January 2011 12:07
Thuddeus wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 18:01



I use single 1:144 scale minis for these units and add overlord tokens as hit counters,


Genius! I've been working for a while on 1/100 ish scaleminis to replace the plastic figs from the games. Got some modular hex-based terrain to play it on as well- biggest puzzle was how best to do hit markers- it tends to work out as a single tank per unit. This is an ideal solution- something specific, and already owned!
      
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