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ad79
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Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 07:33
Hi folks

1. If you are coming down the upper left road in this example, do you have to go all the way down to the y-intersection before going up the right road, or can you take the shortcut between the red roadhexes?(since they are adjacent)

..\ .... . /
....\... /
..... y
.. ../
(dots used to get t he illustration to line up properly)

2a. If you play Infiltrators(Winter Combat Deck) or BEL, then use the Heat of Battle to get an extra attack, do the additional die from Infiltrators/BEL carry over?

2b. Can you take ground after the Heat of Battle attack?

2c. If 2a is Yes, can you then play several Heat of Battles in succesion?

2d. Can you play Heat of Battle after an Armor Overrun attack to get a 3rd attack in?
      
stevens
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 13:18
Since it is so close to VALENTINES DAY, I believe a rose by any other name stills mells as sweet.

A road is a road is a road.

Adjacent road hexes are adjacent road hexes. Use them. The "Y" is an aesthetic visual, not a limiting factor.

That is how I play it.

http://www.pixabella.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/love-heart-clipart-200x177.png
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 14:41
But to get the extra road movement bonus the roads must be connected rather than just adjacent? So I would play that you have to use the 'Y' junction to get the extra road movement.
      
Morgiliath
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 15:47
A road is a road is a road, and an offroad is not a road.
The roads must be connected, or no go IMHO.
      
sam1812
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 16:08
ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 01:33

Hi folks

1. If you are coming down the upper left road in this example, do you have to go all the way down to the y-intersection before going up the right road, or can you take the shortcut between the red roadhexes?(since they are adjacent)

..\ .... . /
....\... /
..... y
.. ../
(dots used to get t he illustration to line up properly)

(Great picture, Stig!) In the Terrain Pack rule book, where Roads are first explained, and most fully explained, it says, "Movement: An ordered unit that starts on a Road hex, moves along the road and ends its move on a Road hex may move 1 additional hex this turn on the road." It has to move along the road. Jumping to a neighboring road is different.
Quote:



2a. If you play Infiltrators(Winter Combat Deck) or BEL, then use the Heat of Battle to get an extra attack, do the additional die from Infiltrators/BEL carry over?


Interesting question. Using the various cards where tanks get a second battle, if this is like Armor Assault or TFH, the the answer should be yes. If it's like Close Assault, then the answer should be no. Richard's logic in explaining the Close Assault card was that the initial attack is a prepared attack, and the follow-up, out in the open, is a normal overrun. I think the name "Heat of Battle" suggests that the passion of the initial attack is continued, so I would side with keeping the extra die.
Quote:

2b. Can you take ground after the Heat of Battle attack?


I'd say yes. That's part of "battling."
Quote:

2c. If 2a is Yes, can you then play several Heat of Battles in succesion?


There is nothing on the card to forbid that. In fact, the rule book says, "There is no limit to the number of Combat cards a player...may play during his, or an opponent's, turn."
Quote:

2d. Can you play Heat of Battle after an Armor Overrun attack to get a 3rd attack in?

This would be impossible. HOB is only for infantry units.

For infantry in armor, see BattleLore or CCA. Smile
      
ad79
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 16:16
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 16:08

ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 01:33

Hi folks

1. If you are coming down the upper left road in this example, do you have to go all the way down to the y-intersection before going up the right road, or can you take the shortcut between the red roadhexes?(since they are adjacent)

..\ .... . /
....\... /
..... y
.. ../
(dots used to get t he illustration to line up properly)

(Great picture, Stig!) In the Terrain Pack rule book, where Roads are first explained, and most fully explained, it says, "Movement: An ordered unit that starts on a Road hex, moves along the road and ends its move on a Road hex may move 1 additional hex this turn on the road." It has to move along the road. Jumping to a neighboring road is different.
Quote:



2a. If you play Infiltrators(Winter Combat Deck) or BEL, then use the Heat of Battle to get an extra attack, do the additional die from Infiltrators/BEL carry over?


Interesting question. Using the various cards where tanks get a second battle, if this is like Armor Assault or TFH, the the answer should be yes. If it's like Close Assault, then the answer should be no. Richard's logic in explaining the Close Assault card was that the initial attack is a prepared attack, and the follow-up, out in the open, is a normal overrun. I think the name "Heat of Battle" suggests that the passion of the initial attack is continued, so I would side with keeping the extra die.
Quote:

2b. Can you take ground after the Heat of Battle attack?


I'd say yes. That's part of "battling."
Quote:

2c. If 2a is Yes, can you then play several Heat of Battles in succesion?


There is nothing on the card to forbid that. In fact, the rule book says, "There is no limit to the number of Combat cards a player...may play during his, or an opponent's, turn."
Quote:

2d. Can you play Heat of Battle after an Armor Overrun attack to get a 3rd attack in?

This would be impossible. HOB is only for infantry units.For infantry in armor, see BattleLore or CCA. Smile


Thanks for the answers,Sam, they are inline with my own thoughts on the subjects.
Last question is my bad, the train of thought on multiple attacks got me.
      
stevens
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 19:43
So what I hear Sam and Stig saying is that they believe you have to literally follow the road AS IT IS VISUALLY DRAWN on the Road Hexes rather than follow the NATURE OF THE HEX (A ROAD HEX).

This is not necessarily consistent with other rules relating to the NATURE of HEXES.

If you place a BRIDGE structure on a RIVER hex. The entire hex is now treated as if it was open terrain. It now has the NATURE of an OPEN TERRAIN hex. You may cross this at any adjoining hex, not just where the ends of the bridge happen to visually fall. In fact, often the end of the bridge falls into 2 hexes and either one may be entered.

I am not saying you guys are wrong, just that there is more than one way to look at this.
Confused

So let's see how DOW answers this.

[Updated on: Sun, 13 February 2011 19:46]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 20:00
This is an interesting question that I've wondered about as well...and I can see both sides. This might be something to add to the FAQ once we figure out a good answer!

Q: For a unit to enjoy the movement bonus of a road hex, does it need to follow the road image? Would a unit still get the bonus if it moves through the side of a road image but remains on road hexes?

A:


Does that question accurately portray what we're wondering? Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Sun, 13 February 2011 20:01]

      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 20:00
stevens wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 13:43


I am not saying you guys are wrong, just that there is more than one way to look at this.
Confused

So let's see how DOW answers this.




Yeah, I agree we need some kind of word from DOW here. The *spirit* of the rule suggests you should have to move continuously along connected roads, but the letter of the rule is ambiguous.
      
stevens
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 20:12
Great Jesse! Looks like a good format.
      
ad79
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 20:44
stevens wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 19:43

I am not saying you guys are wrong, just that there is more than one way to look at this. Confused


Your way or the highway, ehh? Very Happy (Only kidding)


Q: For a unit to enjoy the movement bonus of a road hex, does it need to follow the road image? Would a unit still get the bonus if it moves through the side of a road image but remains on road hexes?

This one sounds good, Jesse, but I'd like to complicate it even further just to get this one correct.

Can I move between adjacent unconnected roadhexes and still enjoy the roadbonus,if
a) the roads connect somewhere else on the board?
b) the roads don't connect anywhere on the board?

I know the b) situation doesn't yet apply to any scenarios in the game, but I feel it should be clarified.
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 21:33
I think it would not be logical that a unit still the advantage of the road (+1 move) while it jumps from one road to another.
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/mypage/291698/m44/gallery
I think, no : I'm pretty sure that to have the benefit of move +1, you shouldn't follow the arrow, but the road (look at 7th photo).

[Updated on: Sun, 13 February 2011 21:34]

      
Phread
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 21:39
My view - for what it is worth - is that the road hexes have to be directly connected.

Given the scale of the hexes in M44 adjacent road hexes could be separated by hundreds of metres of countryside terrain, therefor there's no movement bonus unless following contiguous road hexes.
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Sun, 13 February 2011 21:47
Right.
      
Shoegaze99
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Mon, 14 February 2011 16:42
stevens wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 13:43

So what I hear Sam and Stig saying is that they believe you have to literally follow the road AS IT IS VISUALLY DRAWN on the Road Hexes rather than follow the NATURE OF THE HEX (A ROAD HEX).

This is not necessarily consistent with other rules relating to the NATURE of HEXES.

This is how I've played it. The hex is the hex is the hex.

Though on the other hand, terrain such as the wadis hexes are impacted by direction. One might be able to argue that roads could/would be treated the same way.

I think it's fair to say the letter of the rule is a touch ambiguous but suggests you don't need to follow the road exactly, but the spirit of the rule suggests that you should.

Though I've played by the letter (I think) this far, some of the comments in this thread have me leaning the other way now.
      
gheintze
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Mon, 14 February 2011 16:52
Isn't this the same as moving from one parallel bridge to another? I think that there was a previous question about moving from pontoon bridges or fordable streams directly onto an adjacent bridge -- and I believe it was answered that you could not. So direction of bridges, roads, rivers, etc... does matter.

I think that you should have to stay on the road and follow it's direction to benefit.

Geoff

[Updated on: Mon, 14 February 2011 16:52]

      
eldonion
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Mon, 14 February 2011 18:14
Just to add my own humble view

In reality if you want to move at a faster pace then leaving any road to travel accross some other terrain cannot possible increase your speed.

(I know that this does not take into account any reduction in total distance travelled by cutting corners etc)

Therefore if you want to benefit from an increase in speed "in the game" then you must stick to the road.

At least that's how i play it
      
tank commander
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Mon, 14 February 2011 22:32
I have always played it by following the road as it appears on the map -- from one directly connected road hex to another.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Mon, 14 February 2011 23:17
I also have always played you must follow the road. Kind of makes intersections less useful for control purposes if you can just bypass them, doesn't it?

If you can "jump" to adjacent road hexes if on the same road them why not have a train jump tracks? (I know there is no train intersection, but it is possible to have winding tracks that are adjacent.) I don't think jumping trains makes sense, and from this can see the road hex jumping is also a bit odd. Just my opinion, though.

But given rules say "follow" I think there is nothing to argue about here.
      
PanzerRunes
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Tue, 15 February 2011 06:46
stevens wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 10:43



So what I hear Sam and Stig saying is that they believe you have to literally follow the road AS IT IS VISUALLY DRAWN on the Road Hexes rather than follow the NATURE OF THE HEX (A ROAD HEX).

This is not necessarily consistent with other rules relating to the NATURE of HEXES.

If you place a BRIDGE structure on a RIVER hex. The entire hex is now treated as if it was open terrain. It now has the NATURE of an OPEN TERRAIN hex. You may cross this at any adjoining hex, not just where the ends of the bridge happen to visually fall. In fact, often the end of the bridge falls into 2 hexes and either one may be entered.

I am not saying you guys are wrong, just that there is more than one way to look at this.
Confused

So let's see how DOW answers this.




I am not saying I am right in this expanation but this is how I have played bridges:
If the bridge opening is alligned at a hex side it then units must enter from that side.
If the bridge is placed so that its opening is to a hex junction it can be entered from either of the two hexes.

I am curious what RB has to say about this too.

I also play roads as connected as portrayed... therefore a unit must enter the Y to receive the road bonus.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Tue, 15 February 2011 09:24
I don't think that the way bridges are aligned on the map matters. They can be entered / exited from any adjacent hex.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 February 2011 09:24]

      
50th
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Tue, 15 February 2011 09:43
Achtung Panzer wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 02:24

I don't think that the way bridges are aligned on the map matters. They can be entered / exited from any adjacent hex.


Panzerrunes is talking about bridges laid side by side, in which case, no you cannot move from bridge to bridge. see page 8 of current FAQ downloadable from here: http://cdn1.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_faq_full_v1- 3_en.pdf

      
Antoine
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Tue, 15 February 2011 11:19
Hi officers,

Here are our answers to your questions...

ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 07:33

1. If you are coming down the upper left road in this example, do you have to go all the way down to the y-intersection before going up the right road, or can you take the shortcut between the red roadhexes?(since they are adjacent)

..\ .... . /
....\... /
..... y
.. ../
(dots used to get t he illustration to line up properly)

I suppose that the real question is "Do I get the extra hex if I take the shortcut" and not "Am I allowed to take the shortcut". As you all know, a unit may always move from one road hex to another, even if it's not the same road. I just want to make it clear so that newcomers are not confused with this question.

However, a unit that moves from one road hex to another may NOT move 1 additional hex if these road hexes are not connected. They do not "move along" the road, they jump from one road to another, losing the extra move.

ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 07:33

2a. If you play Infiltrators(Winter Combat Deck) or BEL, then use the Heat of Battle to get an extra attack, do the additional die from Infiltrators/BEL carry over?

Yes.

ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 07:33

2b. Can you take ground after the Heat of Battle attack?

Yes, depending on terrain (ie apply normal Armor Overrun rules - you cannot move further if you entered a terrain that prevents you from doing that)

ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 07:33

2c. If 2a is Yes, can you then play several Heat of Battles in succesion?

You mean if 2b is yes? Yes, provided you're able to take ground.

ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 07:33

2d. Can you play Heat of Battle after an Armor Overrun attack to get a 3rd attack in?

No, this card may only be used with Infantry units.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 February 2011 16:13]

      
tank commander
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Tue, 15 February 2011 12:12
50th wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 03:43

Achtung Panzer wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 02:24

I don't think that the way bridges are aligned on the map matters. They can be entered / exited from any adjacent hex.


Panzerrunes is talking about bridges laid side by side ....



I think he was talking about how to enter a bridge from its ends (not from adjacent bridges) as his post was:

"If the bridge opening is alligned at a hex side it then units must enter from that side. If the bridge is placed so that its opening is to a hex junction it can be entered from either of the two hexes."

In which case panzerrunes the Official FAQ states (on Pg 7 - 3rd sentence):

Q. Does the orientation of the bridge matter, or can a unit move onto the bridge from any adjacent non-water hex?

A. A unit may move onto a bridge from any non-waterway hex.

Note the 5th question on that page about moving from one adjacent bridge to another (those that are side by side). The answer states that bridges are not considered non-waterway hexes and such a move is prohibited.


[Updated on: Tue, 15 February 2011 12:13]

      
stevens
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Tue, 15 February 2011 13:17
Antoine states:
Quote:

I suppose that the real question is "Do I get the extra hex if I take the shortcut" and not "Am I allowed to take the shortcut". As you all know, a unit may always move from one road hex to another, even if it's not the same road. I just want to make it clear so that newcomers are not confused with this question.

However, a unit that moves from one road hex to another may NOT move 1 additional hex if these road hexes are not connected. They do not "move along" the road, they jump from one road to another, losing the extra move.



Dear Antoine,
Thanks for your astute and clear response.

An FAQ question may now be;
Q. If road hex tiles are adjacent on the board, although the road images themselves are not visually connected, may I move across these hex tiles my standard number of movement points.

A. Yes you may. However, you forfeit the road movement bonus of moving one additional hex unless you move directly along the connected road images.


And so guys you may actually find yourself at the exact same point if you decide to go "cross country". And if you happen to have a FROZEN GROUND card in your hand you can use the extra hex move to make up the difference.

Thanks Stig for posing a good question!

[Updated on: Tue, 15 February 2011 13:22]

      
ad79
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Tue, 15 February 2011 18:54
Thanks for the answers, Antoine.
      
eldonion
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Wed, 16 February 2011 18:46
Some good answers to some good questions
Thanks all
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Thu, 17 February 2011 04:57
I will include those questions and their subsequent answers in the FAQ for the next update. Thanks for asking such great questions, Stig! Very Happy
      
ad79
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Re:Road movement question and a Winter Combat card question. Thu, 17 February 2011 06:42
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 17 February 2011 04:57

Thanks for asking such great questions, Stig! Very Happy


There really is no end to the praise I'm getting for asking this question. Laughing Mr. Bump is feeling good.
      
    
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