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50th
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Operation Overlord question Wed, 16 February 2011 17:53
I was looking at the book that came with operation overlord, and I think I found an error. On page 7, at the bottom of the first column, it says that a commander in chief places it face up and draws another card. In the next column, it says that a commander in chief may give an air sortie card to a field general of his choice and that it is never played by the commander in chief himself! These two seem to contradict. I ask this because I finished my own air rules version 01.05 complete with pictures and overlord rules. So I have been looking at the overlord book a lot when I found this. My air rules will be on my user page very soon if you want to check them out.

      
Turboheizer
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Re:Operation Overlord question Wed, 16 February 2011 18:15
Quote:

My air rules will be on my user page very soon if you want to check them out.


Very nice! Please notify us when you are finished.
      
50th
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Re:Operation Overlord question Wed, 16 February 2011 18:22
Turboheizer wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 11:15

Quote:

My air rules will be on my user page very soon if you want to check them out.


Very nice! Please notify us when you are finished.


It's there, the rules are five pages now, instead of two, but include pictures and Eastern Front and Overlord.

      
ad79
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Re:Operation Overlord question Wed, 16 February 2011 20:24
As in the standard and Breakthrough scenarios Air Sorties you draw are placed face up next to your hand, and doesn't count towards your hand limit. This talks about what happens to the Air Sortie when it is drawn and when it is in the C-in-C's hand.

If he wants put it into play, he must hand it to one of his Field Generals and then the Field General can play it in his section, and chose an action and roll the dice. The CinC can't play an Air Sortie card himself, like he can with Air Power(if you don't use Air Rules), Barrage and Counter-Attack.

I don't think there is a contradiction here, as one talks about placing and one talks about playing.
      
tank commander
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Re:Operation Overlord question Wed, 16 February 2011 20:30
50th wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 11:53

I was looking at the book that came with operation overlord, and I think I found an error. On page 7, at the bottom of the first column, it says that a commander in chief places it face up and draws another card. In the next column, it says that a commander in chief may give an air sortie card to a field general of his choice and that it is never played by the commander in chief himself! These two seem to contradict. I ask this because I finished my own air rules version 01.05 complete with pictures and overlord rules. So I have been looking at the overlord book a lot when I found this. My air rules will be on my user page very soon if you want to check them out.




All that is stating is that until a CinC hands an AIR SORTIE card to one of his FGs for that FG to use during the current turn, any / all AIR SORTIE cards drawn by the CinC are displayed face up as normal.

The act of handing an AIR SORTIE card to an FG does not mean the CinC "played" the card himself. That is left to the FG who received the AS card.
      
50th
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Re:Operation Overlord question Wed, 16 February 2011 21:26
Thanks guys, it looked a little confusing to me. Well, my "house air rules" are a little different. In my game the air sortie card does count toward your card count. I did this because if you look at the section on Eastern Front and Overlord in the Overlord rules, it looks like it does count toward the number of cards placed under the commissar chip.

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 05:02
50th wrote on Thu, 17 February 2011 00:26

I did this because if you look at the section on Eastern Front and Overlord in the Overlord rules, it looks like it does count toward the number of cards placed under the commissar chip.


Are you sure about this? Rolling Eyes If this was true, it would be a pretty big shift away from the normal Air Rules...what are the lines in the rules that lead you to believe this?
      
50th
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 05:09
Right in the middle of page 6 of the operation overlord rule book it says, "The Air Sortie (if Air rules are in effect) and Counter-
Attack cards are exceptions; they may be played as
normal, Air Sortie card visible on the table, and
Counter-Attack card directly from the Soviet
Commander-in-Chief's hand, but only if playing
these card(s) AND the Command cards already placed
under the Commissar chip during the prior turn does
not exceed the maximum of 3 Command cards played
during a turn!"

This tells me that these cards do count toward the number of cards placed under the commissar chip. [unless I'm totally reading this wrong]!

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 05:22
50th wrote on Thu, 17 February 2011 08:09

Right in the middle of page 6 of the operation overlord rule book it says, "The Air Sortie (if Air rules are in effect) and Counter-
Attack cards are exceptions; they may be played as
normal, Air Sortie card visible on the table, and
Counter-Attack card directly from the Soviet
Commander-in-Chief's hand, but only if playing
these card(s) AND the Command cards already placed
under the Commissar chip during the prior turn does
not exceed the maximum of 3 Command cards played
during a turn!"

This tells me that these cards do count toward the number of cards placed under the commissar chip. [unless I'm totally reading this wrong]!




Yep, you're right that the cards count toward your Commissar Chip...but what you said earlier is that the Air Sortie Card counts toward your hand! While they are related, those are two very distinct parts of the game and can make a big difference in a game.

The Air Sortie card is still placed face up if you draw it from the pile and does not count toward the total number of cards that you can hold. However, when you choose to use the Air Sortie card, it is place under the Commissar Chip and it does count toward your attack!

So in your house rules (which I haven't had a chance to look at yet in this format) if you are saying that the Air Sortie card counts as one of the cards in your hand, that is a large difference from Richard Borg's rules...which is perfectly fine if that's what you wanted for your rules. Cool

EDIT: I had been using "Air Power" when I meant to use "Air Sortie". I have fixed that mistake in this post (thanks Sam).

[Updated on: Thu, 17 February 2011 05:42]

      
sam1812
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 05:33
I'm wondering if there may be confusion here over two difference senses of the word "played." Let's see if I can clarify by paraphrasing.

1. A CinC may never deploy more than 3 cards in a turn.

2. A Russian CinC may put up to 3 cards under his Commissar Chip.

3. On a given turn, if the Russian CinC deploys any cards from under the Chip, he must deploy all of them. (As in standard Commissar games, there are cases where the Russian CinC won't use his Chip cards. For example, if the opponent plays a TFH, he may Counter-Attack that.)

4a. In addition, if he has fewer than 3 cards under the Chip, the CinC may deploy Counter-Attacks from his hand or Air Sorties from their usual face-up-on-the-table location, so long as he doesn't exceed the 3-card limit.

4b. Alternatively, the CinC may play one or more Counter-Attacks from his hand, and leave all the Chip cards in place for that turn.

5. If he wishes to use an Air Sortie, he gives it to a Field General, to bring a new plane onto the board or order an existing plane.

6. Note: The CinC never orders units directly. Only FGs can order units. That includes planes.

7. Also note: If, for example, the Russian player draws 2 cards to restore his hand to 10 cards, and one of his draws is a Sortie, then he puts the Sortie face-up on the table and draws new card to his hand. He now has a total of 11 cards, but his hand is still 10.

(Note: Point 4b was added after the original post.)

[Updated on: Mon, 21 February 2011 06:27]

      
sam1812
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 05:34
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 23:22

Yep, you're right that the cards count toward your Commissar Chip...but what you said earlier is that the Air Power Card counts toward your hand! While they are related, those are two very distinct parts of the game and can make a big difference in a game.

The Air Power card is still placed face up if you draw it from the pile and does not count toward the total number of cards that you can hold. However, when you choose to use the Air Power card, it is place under the Commissar Chip and it does count toward your attack!

Um, Jesse, you mean Air Sortie, right? Smile
      
50th
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 05:35
Yes, in my rules, the air sortie counts toward the cards in your hand and is played like any other card, except you re-shuffle the deck after playing it (like TFH) so that these cards will come up more often. My system does away with air checks as ground units (especially ships and AAA) can shoot back, or sometimes shoot first at an attacking air unit. Please, have a look and tell me what you think. I know these rules work, because I have been using them for over a year (except air and ground interdiction, which are new rules).

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 05:36
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 17 February 2011 08:34

rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 23:22

Yep, you're right that the cards count toward your Commissar Chip...but what you said earlier is that the Air Power Card counts toward your hand! While they are related, those are two very distinct parts of the game and can make a big difference in a game.

The Air Power card is still placed face up if you draw it from the pile and does not count toward the total number of cards that you can hold. However, when you choose to use the Air Power card, it is place under the Commissar Chip and it does count toward your attack!

Um, Jesse, you mean Air Sortie, right? Smile


Shoot... Embarassed Yes, I mean Air Sortie. Now I have to look back at all my posts this morning and make sure they make sense!! Razz I must not have slept as well as I thought. Laughing

EDIT: I've now corrected my post...thanks for catching that, Sam!

[Updated on: Thu, 17 February 2011 05:39]

      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Operation Overlord question Thu, 17 February 2011 19:49
I took a look and I was very impressed.
Great job, 50th.
      
50th
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Re:Operation Overlord question Sat, 19 February 2011 03:44
Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Thu, 17 February 2011 12:49

I took a look and I was very impressed.
Great job, 50th.


Thank you for those kind words. I looked at the rules today and "cleaned" them up a little and fixed a couple of typo's. Please try these rules, I have been using my own rules for the air pack for a couple of years now. I believe that they work a lot better than moving an aircraft one hex more than an armor unit. (not that I'm putting down the original, I have nothing but respect for the creator of what I think is the best WWII game made!) Wink Nod

      
tank commander
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Re:Operation Overlord question Sun, 20 February 2011 12:24
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 23:33

I'm wondering if there may be confusion here over two difference senses of the word "played." Let's see if I can clarify by paraphrasing.

4. In addition, if he has fewer than 3 cards under the Chip, the CinC may deploy Counter-Attacks from his hand ...


Hi Sam.

I thought that even if there were 3 cards under the chip, the Russian CinC may still play play Counter-Attack (up to 3 if he had them) but this would be in lieu of playing any of the chip cards.


      
50th
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Re:Operation Overlord question Mon, 21 February 2011 01:57
tank commander wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 05:24

sam1812 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 23:33

I'm wondering if there may be confusion here over two difference senses of the word "played." Let's see if I can clarify by paraphrasing.

4. In addition, if he has fewer than 3 cards under the Chip, the CinC may deploy Counter-Attacks from his hand ...


Hi Sam.

I thought that even if there were 3 cards under the chip, the Russian CinC may still play play Counter-Attack (up to 3 if he had them) but this would be in lieu of playing any of the chip cards.





On page 6 of operation overlord, it says, "The Air Sortie (if Air rules are in effect) and Counter-
Attack cards are exceptions; they may be played as
normal, Air Sortie card visible on the table, and
Counter-Attack card directly from the Soviet
Commander-in-Chief's hand, but only if playing
these card(s) AND the Command cards already placed
under the Commissar chip during the prior turn does
not exceed the maximum of 3 Command cards played
during a turn!

The Ambush card is an exception."
It looks to me like the amount of cards under the chip AND cards played from the hand cannot exceed three cards during a turn. Also look at page 43 of the official FAQ.

[Updated on: Mon, 21 February 2011 02:34]

      
sam1812
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Re:Operation Overlord question Mon, 21 February 2011 06:26
TC and 50th, you're correct. I didn't include the case where the CinC substitutes Counter-Attacks (and possibly Air Sorties) in place of playing any cards at all from under the Chip.

The rules and FAQ aren't explicit, but I assume he can combine Air Sorties with these Coutner-Attacks, too.

I'm adjusting my earlier post to clarify this point.
      
Oros
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Re:Operation Overlord question Tue, 22 February 2011 15:58
50th wrote on Mon, 21 February 2011 08:57

tank commander wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 05:24

sam1812 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 23:33

I'm wondering if there may be confusion here over two difference senses of the word "played." Let's see if I can clarify by paraphrasing.

4. In addition, if he has fewer than 3 cards under the Chip, the CinC may deploy Counter-Attacks from his hand ...


Hi Sam.

I thought that even if there were 3 cards under the chip, the Russian CinC may still play play Counter-Attack (up to 3 if he had them) but this would be in lieu of playing any of the chip cards.





On page 6 of operation overlord, it says, "The Air Sortie (if Air rules are in effect) and Counter-
Attack cards are exceptions; they may be played as
normal, Air Sortie card visible on the table, and
Counter-Attack card directly from the Soviet
Commander-in-Chief's hand, but only if playing
these card(s) AND the Command cards already placed
under the Commissar chip during the prior turn does
not exceed the maximum of 3 Command cards played
during a turn!

The Ambush card is an exception."
It looks to me like the amount of cards under the chip AND cards played from the hand cannot exceed three cards during a turn. Also look at page 43 of the official FAQ.





I think this restriction is only for Counter-Attack cards, right?

If I don't forgot the mail reply which DoW crew send to me, the Air Sortie Cards is not count in the maximum of 3 command cards played in a turn, and you can also have 1 tactic card and 1 Air Sortie to differemt FG in a turn.

But I can't remember whether Air Sortie Cards can give to a FG who already receive 1 tactic card or not.
      
sam1812
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Re:Operation Overlord question Wed, 23 February 2011 04:13
The short answer is that when the Russian CinC plays the cards under the Chip, he may add Counter-Attack(s) from his hand and/or Air Sortie(s) from his table, but (A) he must use all the cards he placed under the Chip, and (B) the total number of cards played on that turn can't be more than 3.

Here are the specific quates from the Operation Overlord expansion rulebook, page 7:

"If an Air Sortie card is drawn, the Commander-in-Chief places it face-up, next to his camp but visible to the others, and draws a new Command card for his hand."

"During his turn, the Commander-in-Chief may give the Air Sortie card (alone, or in combination with a Section card!) to any of his Field Generals."

"The Air Sortie card counts as one card toward the total of up to three cards the Commander-in-Chief may play during his turn. It also counts as one card toward the maximum of two cards a Field General may receive and play during this turn."

"The Air Sortie may not be given to a Field General if that Field General also receives another Tactic card this turn. But it can be given (and played) along with a Section card, if desired."

And regarding Air Rules when the Commissar is present, page 6 says:

"The Air Sortie (if Air rules are in effect) and Counter-Attack cards are exceptions; they may be played as normal, Air Sortie card visible on the table, and Counter-Attack card directly from the Soviet Commander-in-Chief's hand, but only if playing these card(s) AND the Command cards already placed under the Commissar chip during the prior turn does not exceed the maximum of 3 Command cards played during a turn!"

I hope this clarifies it for you.

[Updated on: Wed, 23 February 2011 04:14]

      
    
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