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gheintze
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movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 21:12
In case you haven't noticed, there is a debate happening on BGG about movement into ocean hexes. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6321872#6321872

It basically boils down to two choices:

1. You can only move one hex if you enter an ocean hex. Therefore, in order to enter the ocean from the beach, you must begin your turn adjacent to the ocean. If you are moving in the ocean, your total movement for the turn is capped at one hex.

2. You can only move one hex upon entering the ocean. Therefore, you could move one hex on the beach and then one hex into the ocean, for a total of two hexes movement.

I agree with choice 1, but can see the logic behind the second choice. I think that an official response would help in this case.

Thanks,

Geoff
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 21:52
One hex when entering the ocean; two hexes when leaving the ocean?
Rolling Eyes

      
gheintze
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 22:01
Achtung Panzer wrote on Mon, 21 February 2011 15:52

One hex when entering the ocean; two hexes when leaving the ocean?
Rolling Eyes




Sorry, I'm not sure I understand...

Geoff
      
clexton27
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 22:23
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa117/jaapmeursing/Naamloos-1.jpg

The simple question is:
Is the above move permissable?

[Updated on: Mon, 21 February 2011 22:24]

      
gheintze
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 22:29
stevens wrote on Mon, 21 February 2011 16:23

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa117/jaapmeursing/Naamloos-1.jpg

The simple question is:
Is the above move permissable?


Stevens, thanks for simplifying the question.

What do you think?

Geoff
      
Randwulf
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 22:47
If you start in water, you can move from ocean to ocean 1 per turn.
If you move onto land from an ocean you may move max of 2 on the beach. You may not move from the beach into the ocean. Unless you are using scenario specific rules such as Dunkirk...

There is no retreats onto or in any ocean hex.

      
gheintze
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 22:51
Randwulf wrote on Mon, 21 February 2011 16:47

If you start in water, you can move from ocean to ocean 1 per turn.
If you move onto land from an ocean you may move max of 2 on the beach. You may not move from the beach into the ocean. Unless you are using scenario specific rules such as Dunkirk...

There is no retreats onto or in any ocean hex.




Although you cannot retreat from the beach into the ocean, you can move there with an ordered unit. From the FAQ:

Q. Can a unit move (not retreat) from a Beach hex back onto an Ocean hex?
A. Yes. Although it seems strange, units can move from a Beach hex onto an Ocean hex or from one Ocean hex to another,
though movement is still restricted to 1 hex in the Ocean.

Geoff
      
Randwulf
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 22:58
Huh.... well I'll be...

Thanks Geoff
      
ad79
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Mon, 21 February 2011 23:22
Randwulf wrote on Mon, 21 February 2011 22:58

Huh.... well I'll be... stuck on the beach if I still use my own rules.
Thanks Geoff


I completed that sentence for you. Laughing

      
clexton27
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Tue, 22 February 2011 00:04
Quote:

Stevens, thanks for simplifying the question.

What do you think?

Geoff


I think absoluely YES. No problem. Nothing in the current rules prevents it from being a possible move.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 February 2011 00:04]

      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Tue, 22 February 2011 00:04
That makes a lot of sense- I'd spotted people moving units back into the water on M44 online, and wondered whether it was a bug.

No idea about the actual Question tho...
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Tue, 22 February 2011 04:38
I suspect that the fact that we can move back into the Ocean while playing Memoir '44 Online is an official answer for us!

I know that some people would say that it's still in beta and it might be a bug, but moving into the ocean has been allowed since Closed Beta and I've played several beach scenarios against Richard Borg...as far as I know, he's never had a problem with this being allowed. Rolling Eyes
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Tue, 22 February 2011 10:28
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 22 February 2011 03:38

I suspect that the fact that we can move back into the Ocean while playing Memoir '44 Online is an official answer for us!

I know that some people would say that it's still in beta and it might be a bug, but moving into the ocean has been allowed since Closed Beta and I've played several beach scenarios against Richard Borg...as far as I know, he's never had a problem with this being allowed. Rolling Eyes


But has anyone moved two hexes into the Ocean?
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Tue, 22 February 2011 11:56
Mighty Jim 83 wrote on Tue, 22 February 2011 13:28


But has anyone moved two hexes into the Ocean?


I haven't played a game yet to try this myself, but from what Stevens has said, he has moved two hexes and ended in the ocean...

To be clear, though, nobody is allowed to move three hexes total and end in the ocean (I'm not sure if that's what you're asking) because the sand limits you to 2 hexes total. So the best anyone can do is move one hex on the sand and then move into the ocean to end the turn. Cool I believe that this move is possible in Memoir '44 Online, though like I said I haven't tried it specifically yet.
      
clexton27
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Tue, 22 February 2011 13:33
Jesse, you are correct in saying that the BEACH movement allows a maximum of two hexes. This rule is not violated in the aforementioned move.

Also many are saying that you can only move 1 hex in the ocean. Again this rule is not viloated as the unit is just moving into the ocean and must stop, as no further movement into the ocean is possible.

I think we had a similar discussion when trying to understand what terrain a unit using BEL card was capable of moving through. The most simple and most elegant answer was this.
Quote:

Krieghund wrote on Mon, 28 February 2005
So basically the unit is allowed to go anywhere it could legally go in 3 one-hex movements, but all at once. Simple enough.


So breaking the movement down to simple one-hex moves gives us the answer:

Is the unit able to move from a BEACH hex to an adjacent BEACH hex without restriction - YES!!

Is a unit able to move from a BEACH hex to an OCEAN hex -YES!!



http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_1.jpg

Did the unit that first entered onto a BEACH hex move more than 2 hexes - NO!!

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_7.jpg

Did the unit that entered onto an OCEAN hex travel more than 1 hex
in the ocean
- NO!!

No issues, the unit has simply made a 2-hex permissable move.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 February 2011 13:34]

      
eldonion
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Tue, 22 February 2011 20:54
I completely agree with you stevens
(A good explanation with nice visual aids)

Thats the way i have been playing it and it seems pretty logical to me.
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 04:24
I've always played that a unit can re-enter the Ocean as its second hex of movement.

However, there is an official ruling to the contrary in the analogous situation of a tank moving from regular ground to Beach. FAQ, page 6: "A unit that moves onto a beach hex during any part of its movement phase (it does not matter if it's the first or second hex) may only move 2 hexes for its total movement this turn."

When moving onto Beach, its 2-hex limit prevails. By that logic, when moving onto Ocean, its 1-hex limit would prevail.

So maybe I've been playing it wrong. Nobody is ever too old or experienced to learn. Smile
      
JaapM
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 09:53
Hi everybody. Geoff was so kind to post the question here after I started a thread at BGG. The initial question was: does the movement principle concerning a beach hex also applies to a sea hex (but instead a maximum total movement of 2 hexes, a maximum total movement of 1 hex). I also made the graphical masterpiece which was shown earlier to illustrate what I meant Wink

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa117/jaapmeursing/Naamloos-1.jpg

IMO the explanation that Stevens gave made a lot of sense. If I follow his reasoning the answer to the initial question is: NO, the beach movement principle doesn't apply to sea hexes. Concerning movement onto beach/sea hexes:

*A unit that moves onto a beach hex during any part of its movement phase may only move 2 hexes for its total movement this turn.

*During any part of its movement phase a unit may only move onto 1 ocean hex.

sam1812 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 04:24

I've always played that a unit can re-enter the Ocean as its second hex of movement.


Well, in theory (I say theory, because I don't know why you want to do this) it is also valid to do the following move:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa117/jaapmeursing/BeachTheory.jpg

Correct?

      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 10:16
Stevens's answers are correct.

Remember that M44 Summary cards override previous version of rules (AP p.11):
Quote:

These cards were designed with great care, and will answer most rules related questions during game play. They override previous versions of rules and existing cards, where available.


The Oceans Summary card states that "Maximum movement in ocean is 1 hex." In your example, the unit moves 1 hex on the beach and 1 hex in the ocean. Therefore, it is a legal move.
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 11:17
Antoine wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 10:16

Stevens's answers are correct.

Remember that M44 Summary cards override previous version of rules (AP p.11):
Quote:

These cards were designed with great care, and will answer most rules related questions during game play. They override previous versions of rules and existing cards, where available.


The Oceans Summary card states that "Maximum movement in ocean is 1 hex." In your example, the unit moves 1 hex on the beach and 1 hex in the ocean. Therefore, it is a legal move.



Antoine, Christopher Ebert over at BGG raised an interesting question I'd like to confirm with you related to your clarification:

Can you move onto a Beach hex, then onto Ocean, and then back onto a Beach hex again?

It would have to be a 3 hex moving armor unit, it would move only 1 hex on Ocean, and 2 hexes onto Beach. So it should be legal then?

Edit: I see it was already posted above your confirmation. So it is legal.

[Updated on: Wed, 23 February 2011 11:24]

      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 11:28
bdgza wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 14:17


Antoine, Christopher Ebert over at BGG raised an interesting question I'd like to confirm with you related to your clarification:

Can you move onto a Beach hex, then onto Ocean, and then back onto a Beach hex again?

It would have to be a 3 hex moving armor unit, it would move only 1 hex on Ocean, and 2 hexes onto Beach. So it should be legal then?

Edit: I see it was already posted above your confirmation. So it is legal.


No, it would not be legal!!

Any unit who moves on Beach hexes at any point in their turn is not allowed to move more than 2 hexes! So even Armor would not be able to do that move. The only exception to this rule is an Infantry unit that has been ordered with BEL, in which case he ignores all terrain anyway... Cool
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 11:36
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 11:28

bdgza wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 14:17


Antoine, Christopher Ebert over at BGG raised an interesting question I'd like to confirm with you related to your clarification:

Can you move onto a Beach hex, then onto Ocean, and then back onto a Beach hex again?

It would have to be a 3 hex moving armor unit, it would move only 1 hex on Ocean, and 2 hexes onto Beach. So it should be legal then?

Edit: I see it was already posted above your confirmation. So it is legal.


No, it would not be legal!!

Any unit who moves on Beach hexes at any point in their turn is not allowed to move more than 2 hexes! So even Armor would not be able to do that move. The only exception to this rule is an Infantry unit that has been ordered with BEL, in which case he ignores all terrain anyway... Cool


Yes, I just realized that too. Getting too confused now. Can't see the beach through the waves anymore Smile.
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 11:41
bdgza wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 14:36


Yes, I just realized that too. Getting too confused now. Can't see the beach through the waves anymore Smile.


Laughing No worries. Very Happy
      
clexton27
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 11:45
I don't think I'll be going to the Beach anytime soon!

Laughing Laughing Laughing

[Updated on: Wed, 23 February 2011 11:45]

      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 14:33
stevens wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 05:45

I don't think I'll be going to the Beach anytime soon!

I hear there's a hex on it! Smile
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 14:41
Antoine wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 04:16

Stevens's answers are correct.

Remember that M44 Summary cards override previous version of rules (AP p.11):
Quote:

These cards were designed with great care, and will answer most rules related questions during game play. They override previous versions of rules and existing cards, where available.


The Oceans Summary card states that "Maximum movement in ocean is 1 hex." In your example, the unit moves 1 hex on the beach and 1 hex in the ocean. Therefore, it is a legal move.


Antoine, just to be clear, you're not also saying that a unit in the second row of Ocean may now move forward through 1 Ocean hex and onto a Beach hex in a single turn, since that's just 1 hex of movement in Ocean, are you?
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 14:51
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 17:41

Antoine, just to be clear, you're not also saying that a unit in the second row of Ocean may now move forward through 1 Ocean hex and onto a Beach hex in a single turn, since that's just 1 hex of movement in Ocean, are you?


Oh, you just had to go there!! Laughing Now you're making everything complicated all over again... Rolling Eyes
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 15:37
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 14:41


Antoine, just to be clear, you're not also saying that a unit in the second row of Ocean may now move forward through 1 Ocean hex and onto a Beach hex in a single turn, since that's just 1 hex of movement in Ocean, are you?


Hahaha good one! I'm curious to see what Antoine has to say. IMO the difference lies between "onto" (regarding the beach hexes) and "in" (regarding the sea hexes).

Regarding movement on beach hexes, it doesn't matter if you start your movement from a beach hex, It depends on which hex you move "onto".

Regarding sea hexes, it DOES matter if you start your movement on a sea hex. Therefore, if you start on the second row, you already ARE in the ocean and are therefore only allowed to make a 1 hex move.

I therefore think that moving from the second row of ocean (which is the furthest from the beach) onto the beach is an invalid move.
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 15:38
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 14:51

sam1812 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 17:41

Antoine, just to be clear, you're not also saying that a unit in the second row of Ocean may now move forward through 1 Ocean hex and onto a Beach hex in a single turn, since that's just 1 hex of movement in Ocean, are you?


Oh, you just had to go there!! Laughing Now you're making everything complicated all over again... Rolling Eyes


I knew it! I knew there had to be something fishy about that clarification!
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 15:52
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 05:41

Antoine wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 04:16

Stevens's answers are correct.

Remember that M44 Summary cards override previous version of rules (AP p.11):
Quote:

These cards were designed with great care, and will answer most rules related questions during game play. They override previous versions of rules and existing cards, where available.


The Oceans Summary card states that "Maximum movement in ocean is 1 hex." In your example, the unit moves 1 hex on the beach and 1 hex in the ocean. Therefore, it is a legal move.


Antoine, just to be clear, you're not also saying that a unit in the second row of Ocean may now move forward through 1 Ocean hex and onto a Beach hex in a single turn, since that's just 1 hex of movement in Ocean, are you?



No he ins't. From the 2nd row, you can only move 1 hex to the 1st row and stop. Ever tried running in the water? Very Happy
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 15:54
eric wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 15:52

sam1812 wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 05:41

Antoine wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 04:16

Stevens's answers are correct.

Remember that M44 Summary cards override previous version of rules (AP p.11):
Quote:

These cards were designed with great care, and will answer most rules related questions during game play. They override previous versions of rules and existing cards, where available.


The Oceans Summary card states that "Maximum movement in ocean is 1 hex." In your example, the unit moves 1 hex on the beach and 1 hex in the ocean. Therefore, it is a legal move.


Antoine, just to be clear, you're not also saying that a unit in the second row of Ocean may now move forward through 1 Ocean hex and onto a Beach hex in a single turn, since that's just 1 hex of movement in Ocean, are you?


No he ins't. From the 2nd row, you can only move 1 hex to the 1st row and stop. Ever tried running in the water? Very Happy


But if you can't do [OCEAN] -> OCEAN -> BEACH, then why can you do [BEACH] -> BEACH -> OCEAN? Which part of the card specifies that difference? Or is that the way it is and it's not on the card?

Does the "in ocean" relate to which terrain you start your move in?

[Updated on: Wed, 23 February 2011 15:55]

      
gheintze
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 16:21
So to sum up:

If you move on a Beach hex at any point during your turn, you can only move two hexes total. Which means that your third hex of movement cannot be onto a Beach hex.

As soon as you move into an ocean hex, your movement is over.

I think this pretty much summarizes the situation -- any corrections or clarifications welcome.

Jesse -- I think this should be in the FAQ. Very Happy

Geoff
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 16:35
gheintze wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 19:21

So to sum up:
As soon as you move into an ocean hex, your movement is over.

I think this pretty much summarizes the situation -- any corrections or clarifications welcome.

Jesse -- I think this should be in the FAQ. Very Happy

Geoff


I'm not sure that this is right...are we sure that water stops all movement? I think I'll wait a while still before I jot this down to include in the FAQ! Cool

[Updated on: Wed, 23 February 2011 16:36]

      
gheintze
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 16:48
I don't see how else to explain this: From the 2nd row of the ocean, you can only move 1 hex to the 1st row and stop. At least not with the rule as explained.

You are still only moving one hex in the ocean, and your movement is not more than two hexes onto the beach. Now, I agree that you shouldn't be able to do that, but the rules that have been quoted still need some clarification to fit together.

The rule must be that a unit (without an LC) entering the ocean can move no further on that turn.

Geoff
      
clexton27
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 17:15
Sam the hex and pox will be on you.

Laughing Laughing

Just read the card:
http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_7.jpg

Since your first move is into an OCEAN hex it's movement would STOP there.

Now I know why I always liked the Mountains more than the Ocean!!!! Mad

[Updated on: Wed, 23 February 2011 17:58]

      
clexton27
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 18:33
Since this topic refuses to die, let me make one comment about the diagram below.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa117/jaapmeursing/BeachTheory.jpg

I DO NOT personally believe that this is a legal move. Once the unit moves INTO the OCEAN hex, I believe that it's movement ceases and it may not then move back onto the beach.
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Wed, 23 February 2011 18:49
stevens wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 12:33

Since this topic refuses to die, let me make one comment about the diagram below.

I DO NOT personally believe that this is a legal move. Once the unit moves INTO the OCEAN hex, I believe that it's movement ceases and it may not then move back onto the beach.



I agree, but the wording on the cards is still confusing -- since you treat beaches one way, and oceans a different way. I still think it is best summarized by "once a unit enters an ocean hex, it cannot move again that turn."

I'm pretty sure that covers all the above cases adequately.

Geoff (who is sorry he entered this discussion, and is remembering the BEL debate fondly at this point Laughing )
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Thu, 24 February 2011 02:23
stevens wrote on Wed, 23 February 2011 12:33

I DO NOT personally believe that this is a legal move. Once the unit moves INTO the OCEAN hex, I believe that it's movement ceases and it may not then move back onto the beach.


I believe Eric's post answered this question. Moving onto Ocean and continuing onto Beach is not permitted. It doesn't matter whether the unit started its turn on Ocean, Beach, or Hill.
      
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Thu, 24 February 2011 23:10
I tried to read the entire thread at once, and here are the conclusions:

1) a unit starting in 2nd row of Ocean can ONLY move to 1st row of Ocean (1 hex)

2) a unit starting in 1st row of Ocean can move 2 hexes on the beach, both Armor and Infantry

3) a unit on a Beach may move 1 hex on a Beach and enter the Ocean to stop its movement, for the total of 2 hex

4) a unit on a Beach may move only 2 hexes, even when exitting the Beach on pastures greener? E.g. Armor starts on the last hex of a Beach can only move two hexes on Normal Countryside? (here am not sure)

5) BEL allows a three hex plus three hex move, wading across the Ocean and fishing

6) I am not going to a Beach this year, as I can't complete the move in two hexes

7) There's a nice German word Hexenschuss... I believe I can feel it in my bones after all that wading...

[Updated on: Thu, 24 February 2011 23:10]

      
gheintze
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Re:movement into ocean hexes - official ruling would be nice :) Thu, 24 February 2011 23:19
4) a unit on the last row of beaches has full movement if they enter normal hexes. However, if you move onto one beach hex, and then enter normal terrain, your movement is limited to two hexes total.

Geoff
      
    
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