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ChizelMonkee
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Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 04:38
I'm eyeing the official Bastogne Overlord scenario for an upcoming event.

I think one of the first changes I'll make will be to move it to the winter boards as I'm sure the scenarios creation predates the release of the D/W maps.

Has anyone tried this scenario with the Winter Wars combat cards and/or Winter Rules?

I'm inclined to try it with both to get the most out of recent investments in M44 product.

It seems to me like it would be historically accurate and a lot of fun.

Any reports from the front on this approach?

Thanks!

      
Nordiskanc
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 05:32
I've played several Bastogne Overlord with them...no problems at all and wouldn't do it without ever again.
      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 05:49
Great! Thanks.


Of course, now I'm flipping through all my Air Pack and WW cards and getting ideas. I don't want to go crazy, but was thinking in addition to the Winter Wars Combat Cards and Winter Rules adding:

1) A few Tiger Tanks swapped in for one German Elite Armor unit each. Is that a fair swap? Historically accurate?

2) Maybe a few supply trucks for the Americans

3) Maybe some anti tank guns too. Maybe on the American side only.

4) Maybe even some Tank Destroyers for the americans which I think also has some historical validity. Not sure about the Germans though.

Again, not trying to go overboard but definitely thinking that if the scenario was written today it would include this stuff.

Ever use any of that stuff in Bastogne?

[Updated on: Sat, 02 April 2011 05:58]

      
ad79
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 08:29
I tried Bastogne with winter rules and some other stuff.
Stuff put in because I wanted too, and not as a result of extensive research. Rolling Eyes
Setup is described in this image.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/896901/memoir-44-winter-wars

It was a fun solo session.

Any question about it just ask.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 April 2011 08:30]

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 10:21
ChizelMonkee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2011 04:49

but was thinking in addition to the Winter Wars Combat Cards and Winter Rules adding:

1) A few Tiger Tanks swapped in for one German Elite Armor unit each. Is that a fair swap? Historically accurate?


I played it this way:

Axis player rolls one die once for each German elite armour unit in turn. On a Star or Armour it can be replaced with a Tiger, with a maximum of 2 Tiger units being available. The Axis player must decide to replace the unit with a Tiger before coninuing to roll for the next elite armour unit. Thus there is a risk of deciding against a Tiger, only to miss out as no more Stars or Armour are subsequently rolled.

Seemed to work OK. Give it a go.

      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 16:49
That's the approach I was thinking of.

So you swapped out elite armor for the tigers, but the half tracks and tank destroyers were added on top of the existing forces, right?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 16:55
ChizelMonkee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2011 18:49

That's the approach I was thinking of.

So you swapped out elite armor for the tigers, but the half tracks and tank destroyers were added on top of the existing forces, right?


Adding new forces might change the battle a lot more than if you simply replaced some units with new types...but if you don't care too much about that I think it could work. Cool

As soon as you start fiddling with the scenario, though, you have to know that the balance will be different than normal. Rolling Eyes It might change the balance in a good way, but it will be different than how other people have played it. Smile
      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 17:59
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 02 April 2011 09:55

ChizelMonkee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2011 18:49

That's the approach I was thinking of.

So you swapped out elite armor for the tigers, but the half tracks and tank destroyers were added on top of the existing forces, right?


Adding new forces might change the battle a lot more than if you simply replaced some units with new types...but if you don't care too much about that I think it could work. Cool

As soon as you start fiddling with the scenario, though, you have to know that the balance will be different than normal. Rolling Eyes It might change the balance in a good way, but it will be different than how other people have played it. Smile



Yeah, that is why I was asking the questions. No one in our group has played this scenario though.

I don't know that DOW looks at balance as being the primary factor though. There are plenty of scenarios that are still fun to play that are also unbalanced from a game perspective. That includes many official overlord maps. Bastogne is one of the largely balanced ones though.

I would be more than happy to play an updated official Bastogne overlord map if one existed.

I think ultimately I'm learning towards swapping out elite armor for tigers (Germans) and standard armor for destroyers (maybe at 2 for 3) for the Americans. Adding two supply units for Americans maybe one for Germans.

Combat cards are in for sure along with winter rules. Haven't decided on low visibility though. I'm kinda back and forth on that one.

Thanks all.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 April 2011 18:08]

      
ad79
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sat, 02 April 2011 21:22
ChizelMonkee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2011 16:49

That's the approach I was thinking of.

So you swapped out elite armor for the tigers, but the half tracks and tank destroyers were added on top of the existing forces, right?


Correct. I gave the Germans 2 half track units and 1 TD and gave the Allied side 1 Half-track and 3 Tank Destroyers.

Don't remember how it went as it was solo and I didn't record the score.

I would like DOW to officially update it now that Winter Wars is available.

Stig Morten
      
Thuddeus
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sun, 03 April 2011 07:19
I have played the Peiper at Stoumont breakthrough scenario. It has built in everything you are looking for, unit variety, winter rules, winter combat deck. I played without the air rules, because I don't really like them, yet. The scenario fits your Bastogne interest and the town of Stoumont provided great competition as we battled for control.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sun, 03 April 2011 10:47
ChizelMonkee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2011 15:49

That's the approach I was thinking of.

So you swapped out elite armor for the tigers, but the half tracks and tank destroyers were added on top of the existing forces, right?


No, I didn't add these units. I just swapped the elite armour for Tigers as per my rule above and used the Winter Combat cards. I agree with Ras about not changing play-tested scenarios too much.

[Updated on: Sun, 03 April 2011 10:47]

      
50th
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sun, 03 April 2011 14:20
I've played the Bastogne Corridor at one of my first conventions, and everyone who played, liked it very much. It is a great first Overlord scenario. Here is a photo of the scenario being played at one of the conventions I went to. I don't remember if this one was the first one, or not.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Games/HPIM1325.jpg

      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Sun, 03 April 2011 19:46
Achtung Panzer wrote on Sun, 03 April 2011 03:47

ChizelMonkee wrote on Sat, 02 April 2011 15:49

That's the approach I was thinking of.

So you swapped out elite armor for the tigers, but the half tracks and tank destroyers were added on top of the existing forces, right?


No, I didn't add these units. I just swapped the elite armour for Tigers as per my rule above and used the Winter Combat cards. I agree with Ras about not changing play-tested scenarios too much.





Sorry Achtung, I was referring to ad79's approach not yours. It seems that wasn't clear. While your idea seemed novel, it does seems to add a lot of dice rolling and lengthening the turn. Glad it worked for you though.

I'd agree with you about not changing the official scenarios *too much*. As I said at the outset, this Bastogne overlord scenario predates many of the supplements and hasn't been edited in three years. I don't expect it to be necessarily, but I also don't pay these official scenarios undue reverence in that they shouldn't be toyed with.

I've never had anyone explain the consequences of modifying a changing a scenario. They usually just recommend against it and leave it at that. It can't be because of gameplay balance, right? Anyone who owns the Disaster at Dieppe Battle Map can tell you gameplay balance isn't always key.

I'd much rather modify an official scenario than build a completely untested one.

I think we can look to the WW official rules to see what they did with those scenarios to get some idea what would happen if the map were built today with all rules available. Speculation of course, but you can see the 12/30/44 The Final Counter Attack BT scenario, same battle,same day uses:

1) Winter Combat Cards
2) Winter Rules
3) Mobile Arty
4) Tank Destroyers
5) A host of SWAs

I'm thinking about swapping in Tigers, as others have done, adding a few supply units (both with some historical legitimacy) and leaving out mobile arty and SWAs. I'm not talking about adding tons of new units to an already full board.

In the end I'm pretty conformable with that based on others' experience and without any definitive downside of what changing the original scenario could be.

Thanks all for the feedback!

[Updated on: Sun, 03 April 2011 20:02]

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Tue, 05 April 2011 11:16
Hi ChizelMonkee. The Tiger replacememt role was done once, before the game so it didn't lengthen any turns once the game started. Any excuse to use a Tiger as they do add fun and period feel. Very Happy

[Updated on: Tue, 05 April 2011 16:07]

      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Tue, 05 April 2011 15:20
Achtung Panzer wrote on Tue, 05 April 2011 04:16

Any excuse to use a Tiger as they do add fun and period feel. Very Happy




Amen to that!

[Updated on: Tue, 05 April 2011 15:21]

      
ad79
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Wed, 06 April 2011 13:12
Thinking back to this play a bit, I remember it was fun. And that is success enough for me. Very Happy

The TD's hid in the woods and blasted away at anything that came across open ground. Winter weather ensured crossing open ground was hard and reduced visibility made certain two turn would be needed to get into close assault to be able to hit anything.

TD's was more powerful with winter weather since stars hit normally.

I think this play took a little bit longer than the official scenario, since crossing open ground was hard, due to reduced visibility and winter weather.

Combat cards worked great when the fighting was close to the woods, but wasn't used too much.

Half-tracks took part in both combined attacks and supplying weakened units.

Tigers are a ton of fun!

Reduced visibilty should historically probebly be left out as scenarios on the same date doesn't have them. I found it fun to have them in there, but I don't think they will make or break the scenario.

Try the changes you have suggested and tell us how it went.

Good luck!
      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Mon, 11 April 2011 04:11
ad79 wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 06:12


Try the changes you have suggested and tell us how it went.

Good luck!



We ran our even Friday night. The changes I went with:

1) Swap out 3 German elite armor units for 3 Tigers
2) Swap out 2 American armor units for 3 Tank Destroyers
3) Added 3 units of supply trucks for the Americans (2 trucks each)
4) Added winter combat cards
5) Added winter rules

How well did it work? I think the results were inconclusive.

It was a six player Overlord match with two of the six entirely new to the game. Everyone but me was new to the combat cards and I think I may have been the only one to use them. I was reminding other players to draw new ones and play them too with not much success. Sad

The TDs and the STs weren't used much or weren't used wisely. Sad

The Tigers are the easiest of the changes I made to understand and had some impact on the battles.

Germans ended up winning 12-10. Everyone said they had fun and I don't doubt that. I don't think there are any changes I regret making, but many of the changes weren't used to their full potential. The result being more from inexperienced/hesitant players than a flaw in the additions if you ask me. Smile
      
50th
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Mon, 11 April 2011 04:25
I may of said this before on another thread, but I don't like the reduced visibility rules in WW. I would rather go with Rasmussen81's weather rules found on his user page. The weather in these rules can go better or worse! I played "The Bulge Pushes Out" with these rules instead of Reduced Visibility, and the visibility never got above three hexes, and several times went back to one hex.

      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Bastogne Overlord with Winter Cards and/or Winter Rules? Mon, 11 April 2011 05:31
50th wrote on Sun, 10 April 2011 21:25

I may of said this before on another thread, but I don't like the reduced visibility rules in WW. I would rather go with Rasmussen81's weather rules found on his user page. The weather in these rules can go better or worse! I played "The Bulge Pushes Out" with these rules instead of Reduced Visibility, and the visibility never got above three hexes, and several times went back to one hex.





Interesting idea

Just to be clear we played with Winter Weather not Reduced Visibility.
      
    
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