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sam1812
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sun, 13 February 2011 05:29
mescalito wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 17:21

Hi guys, here is the question:

Do we re-roll flag when there is nowhere for Tiger to retreat or does it just kill it?

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 22:01

Ernest_Harmon wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:40

The original rule book says resolve hits, then resolve retreats. So in the case of a Tiger that can't retreat, it's destroyed, because of this.


No, the Flag is a hit if the Tiger can't retreat and it must be re-rolled just like any other hit. Cool

      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sun, 13 February 2011 13:59
See this site for tiger information sheets

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=21423&start=0


Richard's answer to Sam:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=166111#msg_166111

May 25, 2009
Quote:

(RB) Yes you must re-roll to confirm.
As the Tigers Summary card state: Enemy re-rolls all battle dice that score a hit.

(RB) If a Tiger cannot ignore a flag and is forced to retreat, like any other unit that cannot retreat, one hit is score for each retreat hex it cannot complete. Again hits scored in this manner must be re-rolled to confirm.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 February 2011 12:34]

      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Tue, 15 February 2011 13:19
An FAQ question may now be;
Q. If road hex tiles are adjacent on the board, although the road images themselves are not visually connected, may I move across these hex tiles my standard number of movement points.

A. Yes you may. However, you forfeit the road movement bonus of moving one additional hex unless you move directly along the connected road images.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=21426&start=0

[Updated on: Tue, 15 February 2011 13:23]

      
GoboGobo
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 11:03
I'm hoping that there will be an update to the FAQ again soon, because I have the feeling that there may be some unclarities in recent expansions still.

After playing with the Breakthrough deck, with a friend some came up during play in regards with the "on the move" part of orders. I wonder if the following is allowed with units going "on the move":

* Airplane moving and performing an action other than strafing
* Supply truck moving to another unit and supplying another unit
* Unit being supplied by a supply truck (since both have to be ordered)
* Engineers moving somewhere and removing mines/wires.
      
tank commander
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 12:38
GoboGobo wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 05:03

I'm hoping that there will be an update to the FAQ again soon, because I have the feeling that there may be some unclarities in recent expansions still.

After playing with the Breakthrough deck, with a friend some came up during play in regards with the "on the move" part of orders. I wonder if the following is allowed with units going "on the move":

* Airplane moving and performing an action other than strafing
* Supply truck moving to another unit and supplying another unit
* Unit being supplied by a supply truck (since both have to be ordered)
* Engineers moving somewhere and removing mines/wires.


There was already a discussion on this. I believe that most thought (including myself) was that "Om the Move" orders were ONLY to move units -- they were not allowed to do anything else.
      
tank commander
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 12:45
GoboGobo wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 05:03


* Unit being supplied by a supply truck (since both have to be ordered)


As to this point in your post:

The weaken unit that is being re-supplied does not have to be ordered.

Richard Borg

      
GoboGobo
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 13:31
tank commander wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 12:38

GoboGobo wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 05:03

I'm hoping that there will be an update to the FAQ again soon, because I have the feeling that there may be some unclarities in recent expansions still.

After playing with the Breakthrough deck, with a friend some came up during play in regards with the "on the move" part of orders. I wonder if the following is allowed with units going "on the move":

* Airplane moving and performing an action other than strafing
* Supply truck moving to another unit and supplying another unit
* Unit being supplied by a supply truck (since both have to be ordered)
* Engineers moving somewhere and removing mines/wires.


There was already a discussion on this. I believe that most thought (including myself) was that "Om the Move" orders were ONLY to move units -- they were not allowed to do anything else.



I tried searching the forum, but the search function does not seem to work properly and/or the search terms are a bit too generic... Confused
Can you point me in the right direction?

[Updated on: Mon, 11 April 2011 13:32]

      
sam1812
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 13:38
tank commander wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 06:38

There was already a discussion on this. I believe that most thought (including myself) was that "Om the Move" orders were ONLY to move units -- they were not allowed to do anything else.


Yes. Engineers are only allowed to remove mines if they're eligible to battle, and that's not the case with OTM. Same thing with infantries removing wire. Interdiction, etc., are "battle actions," and not appropriate for OTM. (I suppose Storch Recon and Takeoff/Landing would still be permitted, but I've never seen them discussed.)
      
GoboGobo
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 13:40
sam1812 wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 13:38

tank commander wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 06:38

There was already a discussion on this. I believe that most thought (including myself) was that "Om the Move" orders were ONLY to move units -- they were not allowed to do anything else.


Yes. Engineers are only allowed to remove mines if they're eligible to battle, and that's not the case with OTM. Same thing with infantries removing wire. Interdiction, etc., are "battle actions," and not appropriate for OTM. (I suppose Storch Recon and Takeoff/Landing would still be permitted, but I've never seen them discussed.)


What I recall from reading the rules about airplanes is that it is dubious that you can even order them just to move, without an additional action such as strafing or interdiction.
There is no mention of battling anywhere, just that they have to be "ordered".
      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 15:44
Yes there will need to be some clarification on the aircraft function. Technically they are "ordered" with OTM, but they have no order other than movement. So no interdiction, no strafing, etc. would seem to be correct.
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 17:13
I think "On the move " is literraly "On the move".
Just move and nothing else.
      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 19:44
Quote:

I think "On the move " is literraly "On the move".
Just move and nothing else.


I believe this is the absolute BEST interpretation.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 20:23
stevens wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 21:44

Quote:

I think "On the move " is literraly "On the move".
Just move and nothing else.


I believe this is the absolute BEST interpretation.


Yep, I agree. Cool
      
GoboGobo
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Re:Official FAQ Book Mon, 11 April 2011 22:29
But is it possible to just move an airplane? The airplane rules don't seem clear whether this allows you to hold an airplane in the air...


Then another one came up with the Winter Combat Cards: Can you combine Fortify with Reposition to battle with an artillery, move it after the battle and then put a sandbag on it?

(IMHO these kind of things would crop up with just a few playtest sessions though Sad)
      
tank commander
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Re:Official FAQ Book Tue, 12 April 2011 01:07
GoboGobo wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 16:29

But is it possible to just move an airplane? The airplane rules don't seem clear whether this allows you to hold an airplane in the air...()


I would think that is allowed. In certain cases a plane that is ordered my not be able to reach a position in order to perform a mission (strafing, interdiction, ect).

For example, say my plane eliminated the last enemy unit in a flank via strafing. I wish to order my plane again in my next turn, but the closest enemy unit is too far away for my plane to affect it via any mission it can fly that turn. I see nothing wrong in ordering the plane just to move into a postion where it could do so the turn after.

In other words, an ordered plane DOES NOT have to perform a mission. In fact the only requirement is that it moves at least 1 hex when ordered. That is of course, if it is not shot down first Smile

[Updated on: Tue, 12 April 2011 01:09]

      
sam1812
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Re:Official FAQ Book Tue, 12 April 2011 02:53
You absolutely can just move a plane without performing a battle action. Page 6, under "Air Battle - Special Actions." "An airplane may use its 'air battle' action...." (Emphasis added.)

Think about the Me-109 in Montelimar that begins the game way off in left field. It usually needs 2 turns to reach any action.

The question of planes On The Move came up in December, too. http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=202343#msg_202343
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Official FAQ Book Tue, 12 April 2011 05:10
GoboGobo wrote on Tue, 12 April 2011 00:29

But is it possible to just move an airplane? The airplane rules don't seem clear whether this allows you to hold an airplane in the air...


The only requirement is that the Airplane move so that it can stay on the board. If a player wanted to just fly the plane around the battle field and roll Air Check rolls, they could do that...but it wouldn't be very useful. The On The Move orders can be used to keep the plane moving but you couldn't perform any special actions on those turns.


Quote:

Then another one came up with the Winter Combat Cards: Can you combine Fortify with Reposition to battle with an artillery, move it after the battle and then put a sandbag on it?

(IMHO these kind of things would crop up with just a few playtest sessions though Sad)


I'm sure these kinds of things did crop up in the playtest sessions, which is why on page 5 of the Winter Wars rule book, it says "There is no limit to the number of Combat cards a player may hold or the number of Combat cards he may play during his, or an opponent's, turn." I added the emphasis.

So to answer your question...yes, you can combine Fortify with Reposition. Smile
      
GoboGobo
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Re:Official FAQ Book Tue, 12 April 2011 07:41
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 12 April 2011 05:10

GoboGobo wrote on Tue, 12 April 2011 00:29

But is it possible to just move an airplane? The airplane rules don't seem clear whether this allows you to hold an airplane in the air...


The only requirement is that the Airplane move so that it can stay on the board. If a player wanted to just fly the plane around the battle field and roll Air Check rolls, they could do that...but it wouldn't be very useful. The On The Move orders can be used to keep the plane moving but you couldn't perform any special actions on those turns.




Actually, it would be very useful, since On The Move actions can be performed all over the board, so you can play in a section and keep your airplane alive using OTM. That makes it a whole lot easier to keep the airplane around in those breakthrough maps.

Quote:

Then another one came up with the Winter Combat Cards: Can you combine Fortify with Reposition to battle with an artillery, move it after the battle and then put a sandbag on it?

(IMHO these kind of things would crop up with just a few playtest sessions though Sad)


I'm sure these kinds of things did crop up in the playtest sessions, which is why on page 5 of the Winter Wars rule book, it says "There is no limit to the number of Combat cards a player may hold or the number of Combat cards he may play during his, or an opponent's, turn." I added the emphasis.

So to answer your question...yes, you can combine Fortify with Reposition. Smile [/quote]

Of course you can Smile, but the question is can it be used on the same unit? Fortify states "move and battle" Reposition makes the unit do "battle and move". It comes down to the order of things I guess (and perhaps my opponent being a bit overly precise Wink)

[Updated on: Tue, 12 April 2011 07:41]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Official FAQ Book Tue, 12 April 2011 09:49
GoboGobo wrote on Tue, 12 April 2011 09:41

Of course you can Smile, but the question is can it be used on the same unit? Fortify states "move and battle" Reposition makes the unit do "battle and move". It comes down to the order of things I guess (and perhaps my opponent being a bit overly precise Wink)


Yes, you can play several cards on the same unit...I would direct your friend to the Urban Combat rule page that can be downloaded here...just go down and find the 'Sword of Stalingrad Combat Rules' PDF.

You'll see that it says, " Combat cards that increase the number of Battle dice rolled are cumulative in effect, when played on the same ordered unit(s)." You can play any number of cards on the same unit, and if the card affects the attack capability the cards all add together. This way your friend doesn't have to take our word for it... he can just look at the official rules! Cool

I hope this helps.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 April 2011 06:46]

      
50th
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Re:Official FAQ Book Fri, 15 April 2011 22:07
sam1812 wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 22:29

mescalito wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 17:21

Hi guys, here is the question:

Do we re-roll flag when there is nowhere for Tiger to retreat or does it just kill it?

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 22:01

Ernest_Harmon wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:40

The original rule book says resolve hits, then resolve retreats. So in the case of a Tiger that can't retreat, it's destroyed, because of this.


No, the Flag is a hit if the Tiger can't retreat and it must be re-rolled just like any other hit. Cool




On page 15 of the FAQ, it says that if a Tiger retreats onto a frozen river and a star is rolled, it is not re-rolled and the Tiger is destroyed. However in light of the above, I think it should be re-rolled. This came up yesterday with Patrol Cars retreating onto a frozen river in "The Forgotten Offensive". Was the answer given in the FAQ the "official" answer? (good job, by the way, putting the FAQ together.)

      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 16 April 2011 00:18
Quote:

Was the answer given in the FAQ the "official" answer?


YES - it is the official FAQ.

Don't drive your tigers on the ice!

Ras states:
Quote:

When I was writing the section on Tigers crossing Frozen Rivers, Richard Borg was very clear that the Frozen River is more dangerous for Tigers than anything else. Even if we don't see a difference in the wording, Richard saw a difference when he answered the question for the FAQ.
13FEB2011

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=208261#msg_208261

[Updated on: Sat, 16 April 2011 00:23]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 16 April 2011 04:57
50th wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 00:07

Was the answer given in the FAQ the "official" answer? (good job, by the way, putting the FAQ together.)


Like Stevens said, it wouldn't be very good as the Official FAQ if I just made up answers and posted them as Official! Rolling Eyes

Yes, the Official FAQ is the final word and none of it is my own interpretation. Every single answer was checked by Richard Borg and the DoW crew to make sure we were all clear on the official interpretation. At times, we discussed the rule to make sure I had a solid understanding of the answer before I typed it up...but none of the answers are my own.

Believe me, it took a lot of patience and time from Richard Borg to answer every little question, but he did!! Smile
      
50th
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 16 April 2011 19:01
Yes, I understand how dangerous it would be for Tigers, but what about Patrol Cars, which are much lighter?

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 16 April 2011 20:43
50th wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 21:01

Yes, I understand how dangerous it would be for Tigers, but what about Patrol Cars, which are much lighter?


Once again we're looking at the game rules for realism, when it's simply a mechanic that illustrates the danger of crossing a frozen body of water. I believe the rule is the same. Razz

If the rules were trying to be perfectly realistic, wouldn't it make more sense for Infantry to roll dice but Armor to simply be destroyed? Rolling Eyes Although the rules do a remarkable job of reflecting real situations and actions, it is still a very basic system...Smile

[Updated on: Sat, 16 April 2011 20:44]

      
50th
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 16 April 2011 23:04
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 13:43

50th wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 21:01

Yes, I understand how dangerous it would be for Tigers, but what about Patrol Cars, which are much lighter?


Once again we're looking at the game rules for realism, when it's simply a mechanic that illustrates the danger of crossing a frozen body of water. I believe the rule is the same. Razz

If the rules were trying to be perfectly realistic, wouldn't it make more sense for Infantry to roll dice but Armor to simply be destroyed? Rolling Eyes Although the rules do a remarkable job of reflecting real situations and actions, it is still a very basic system...Smile


Thank you, that helps. So my friend won that last game because my patrol car sank in the ice and water. (we were playing "The Forgotten Offensive" scenario.)

      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sun, 17 April 2011 11:25
To prevent that, maybe you should play a Pacific Scenario.
Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sun, 17 April 2011 13:54
Or get some DUKWs.

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Ahl/Albums/ATHS9-03/slides/4-DUKW-Side.jpg
      
50th
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sun, 17 April 2011 23:11
Actually, (this might not be the best place to talk about this) I am working on house rules about DUKW and Schwimmwagen using the PC mini's. I have a scenario I'm working on and there is a unit of German observers in a Schwimmwagen.

      
eric
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Re:Official FAQ Book Wed, 20 April 2011 18:53
Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 08:13

I think "On the move " is literraly "On the move".
Just move and nothing else.


That is correct.
      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Wed, 20 April 2011 21:09
Quote:

Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Mon, 11 April 2011 08:13

Quote:

I think "On the move " is literraly "On the move".
Just move and nothing else.




That is correct.


Okay, on an aircraft ordered with an "on the move" order: does it still need to perform an aircheck?

And I guess you are saying that a unit ordered with an "on the move" order may not be resupplied on this turn!!!???
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Official FAQ Book Wed, 20 April 2011 21:23
stevens wrote on Wed, 20 April 2011 23:09


Okay, on an aircraft ordered with an "on the move" order: does it still need to perform an aircheck?


The Air Check roll has nothing to do with actions that airplanes can perform. If the airplane stays on the board because it was moved...it has to roll an Air Check (unless it was ordered with an Air Sortie or equivalent). So yes, it would still need to perform an Air Check roll.

stevens wrote on Wed, 20 April 2011 23:09

And I guess you are saying that a unit ordered with an "on the move" order may not be resupplied on this turn!!!???


The Resupply action is not considered 'moving' so units would not be able to resupply with the "on the move" order. They can only move from one hex to another hex (following the rules for the unit and terrain) and that's it. No other action. Cool

[Updated on: Wed, 20 April 2011 21:24]

      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Wed, 20 April 2011 22:18
Ras states:
Quote:

The Resupply action is not considered 'moving' so units would not be able to resupply with the "on the move" order. They can only move from one hex to another hex (following the rules for the unit and terrain) and that's it. No other action.


Maybe I should have worded this better:
What if I order a SUPPLY TRUCK with a "command order" and then order a weakened infantry unit with a "move only order", may I use these orders to get them adjacent to each other so that the SUPPLY TRUCK may use it's "command order" to resupply the infantry unit that has only been given a "move only order". This still seems reasonable as the unit being resupplied in any resupply situation does not normally have to receive or consume an order to be resupplied.

P.2 Supply Truck Rules
When a Supply Truck is adjacent to a friendly ground unit that is weakened, i.e. that no longer has the full figure count it had at the start of the scenario, it may re-supply that ground unit.

A Supply Truck unit may move before it re-supplies a weakened unit and a weakened unit may move before it is re-supplied.

I could understand not being able to resupply if my SUPPLY TRUCK was the unit given the "move only order", however, doing it the other way around seems reasonable.

[Updated on: Wed, 20 April 2011 22:24]

      
GoboGobo
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Re:Official FAQ Book Wed, 20 April 2011 23:23
stevens wrote on Wed, 20 April 2011 22:18

Ras states:
Quote:

The Resupply action is not considered 'moving' so units would not be able to resupply with the "on the move" order. They can only move from one hex to another hex (following the rules for the unit and terrain) and that's it. No other action.


Maybe I should have worded this better:
What if I order a SUPPLY TRUCK with a "command order" and then order a weakened infantry unit with a "move only order", may I use these orders to get them adjacent to each other so that the SUPPLY TRUCK may use it's "command order" to resupply the infantry unit that has only been given a "move only order". This still seems reasonable as the unit being resupplied in any resupply situation does not normally have to receive or consume an order to be resupplied.

P.2 Supply Truck Rules
When a Supply Truck is adjacent to a friendly ground unit that is weakened, i.e. that no longer has the full figure count it had at the start of the scenario, it may re-supply that ground unit.

A Supply Truck unit may move before it re-supplies a weakened unit and a weakened unit may move before it is re-supplied.

I could understand not being able to resupply if my SUPPLY TRUCK was the unit given the "move only order", however, doing it the other way around seems reasonable.


Since the other unit is only being moved around, I wouldn't see why not.

Going back to my original question: I looked up the exact rules for airplanes and on the move:
- an airplane has to be ordered and move at least one hex each turn or it is removed from the board. It can also perform special actions during its turn such as strafing, interdiction, etc.
- "on the move" orders a unit but in that turn it may only move.

So it turns out the original rules are actually quite clear Smile

      
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Re:Official FAQ Book Thu, 21 April 2011 03:30
stevens wrote on Thu, 21 April 2011 00:18


I could understand not being able to resupply if my SUPPLY TRUCK was the unit given the "move only order", however, doing it the other way around seems reasonable.


Yep, there's no reason that the weakened unit couldn't be ordered with the "on the move" orders...in fact it would be a smart option to get that unit back to full strength! Cool
      
Zalamence
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 30 April 2011 14:26
Is Move Out just a weaker version of Direct from HQ?
Does it offer any advantages?

If it doesn't, why is there the same text as in Armor Assault, BEL, Dig-in etc. in FAQ?
It's also odd that Direct from HQ doesn't state "Terrain movement and battle restrictions still apply." Artillery Bombard lacks this text, too, but there's clarification next to the card.
      
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 30 April 2011 14:42
Zalamence wrote on Sat, 30 April 2011 14:26

Is Move Out just a weaker version of Direct from HQ?
Does it offer any advantages?

If it doesn't, why is there the same text as in Armor Assault, BEL, Dig-in etc. in FAQ?
It's also odd that Direct from HQ doesn't state "Terrain movement and battle restrictions still apply." Artillery Bombard lacks this text, too, but there's clarification next to the card.


In 90% of the cases Move Out is a weaker version of Direct From HQ, but in a few rare cases you would rather play that than a Direct From HQ - as a way to limit the usefulness of a Counter-Attack. Say if your enemy has lots of Artillery and Armor in good positions and you have mostly Infantry (a few of the Pacific scenarios come to mind) there you would be better off using Move Out rather than DfHQ.

I don't really see the problem with the other notes you have... Artillery Bombard orders artillery only, and if you move artillery it can't battle, so no need to clarify terrain restrictions. Or have I misunderstood what you mean?
      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sat, 30 April 2011 15:40
Zalamence:

The Topic prior to your entry regarded the MOVE ONLY order on the NEW deck of BREAKTHROUGH Cards. I was wondering if your question related to these cards, or was it specifically referring to the ORIGINAL COMMAND CARD MOVE-OUT which orders up to 4 Infantry Units anywhere on the board?

If you are referring specifically to the Original Command Card then I think these fellows have answered your question.

Quote:

It's also odd that Direct from HQ doesn't state "Terrain movement and battle restrictions still apply."

The reality is that all the cards which allow unit movement could contain this verbiage, but it isn't necessary. For there is only ONE instance where this is not always a true and constant rule. And that instance is the BEL card where "Terrain Movement restrictions are ignored" (again within this the one exception being IMPASSABLE terrain). And for all practical purposes a unit ordered by the Behind Enemy Lines card may not move onto or through a hex occupied by a friendly or enemy unit.

[Updated on: Sun, 01 May 2011 13:09]

      
Zalamence
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sun, 01 May 2011 09:30
Actually I have been pondering few words in FAQ: "You may not apply card's effect." I just thought that I have missed something important. I understand that Armor Assault has an effect when used with armor units, but doesn't have anything special when used with one inf or arty.
I read FAQ first time more than a year ago. Since then I have asked many times from various opponents if they know any effect on Move Out. The usual answer is that they don't understand the question. Many thanks for finally giving a simple answer. And stevens, I indeed picked my timing badly as my question didn't have anything to do with On the Move. Embarassed

ADD: Nygaard, my other notes were to show the lack of logic. As stevens wrote, BEL is the only card which needs the verbiage. In FAQ Artillery Bombard has clarification while DfHQ doesn't.

[Updated on: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:38]

      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Sun, 01 May 2011 13:12
Quote:

I indeed picked my timing badly as my question didn't have anything to do with On the Move. Embarassed


Hey, there is really no bad time to ask a question, I just wanted to be sure I was answering your question correctly. Welcome to the forums. You will find lots of helpful people and those willing to help others along in the game.
      
stevens
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Re:Official FAQ Book Fri, 13 May 2011 21:41
Artillery Bombard Card and its effect on Mobile artillery

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=215467#msg_215467
      
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