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moflaher
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Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 05:38
This game is painfully unbalanced. It would be nice if they finally fixed it by at least fixing the cards. I can't play another game until they fix the problem with having all your cards in one section while one infantry unit makes it way through ALL your tanks and infantry units in the other sections. This makes it not even a game. Even farmers fought back. Where's the return fire? Also, 1 unit should not have the strength of a full healthy unit. I don't buy that this would change the game. It would simply fix the terrible flaws. Seriously, it's painful and ridiculous.

Remove the ALL cards. Put options on the rest.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 May 2011 05:42]

      
stevens
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 06:32
If the game were seriously flawed those of us who have been playing the game for almost 5 years would have given up by now.

Although in any game, there may be an occaision where yes you do get a bad run of cards or dice, this is not the norm. The issue is usually not the cards, the dice or other intangibles, it is usually the way you are managing your playing hand which needs some improvement.
The following is from a post by Phil McD and I think it may be helpful in recalibrating your approach.

Quote:

Things to consider when playing Memoir 44:
1. M44 is a hand management game that happens to have a war theme.

2. DON'T advance units just to take your best available shot on a turn-by turn basis.

3. NEVER advance units if you don't have at least one more card (and
preferably 2) in your hand that can order them. You will only leave them
stranded for your opponent to defeat in detail.

4. Use dotted line hexes to your advantage. Shift units from one section to
another if you have a lot of cards for one section. Tanks are particularly
useful for this, but so are infantry advancing in hexes on or adjacent to
dotted lines.

5. If you are dealt a particularly poor opening set of cards, don't start
advancing troops until you've re-modeled or at least improved your hand.
Moving units forward from the second sea row is an excellent way of
buying time beneficially in a beachhead scenario.

6. Retreating a crippled unit with a Recon-1 card and getting a choice of 2
cards is NOT a wasted turn. A medal saved is as good as a medal won.

7. Get blocking cards out of your hand immediately at the start of the game
or as quickly as possible when you draw them. For example Dig-In and an
Armor Assault or an Artillery Bombard (if you don't have the required
units) will just sit in your hand and fester if you don't get rid of it, limiting
your choice of actions for the rest of the game. Yes, they can be useful as
a single order anywhere card, but not at the expense of sitting there for
ages, particularly if you only have 4 or 5 cards. Use them and lose them.

8. You should know what card you are going to play NEXT turn before you
play THIS turns card. If luck brings you a better option in the card draw
then that's a bonus. This should always be at the forefront of your mind.

Hopefully these tips will be useful. Memoir 44 is primarily intended to be a game of maneuver and strategy, not a toe-to-toe slugfest, although it CAN be played that way too. Dice are the inevitable necessity of a lite game. They produce the predominant factor of chance. If you play your hand well and are not EXTREMELY unlucky, the bad effects of the dice will be limited.

Asymmetric scenarios are what give the game its character and its closest nod towards being a war game. Nonetheless, it is intended that the scenarios be played twice, with all medals being totaled to decide the winner. Even if you can't win a scenario, taking that extra medal can still bring victory in the end.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 May 2011 06:39]

      
Nygaard
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 09:14
moflaher wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 05:38

This game is painfully unbalanced. It would be nice if they finally fixed it by at least fixing the cards. I can't play another game until they fix the problem with having all your cards in one section while one infantry unit makes it way through ALL your tanks and infantry units in the other sections. This makes it not even a game. Even farmers fought back. Where's the return fire? Also, 1 unit should not have the strength of a full healthy unit. I don't buy that this would change the game. It would simply fix the terrible flaws. Seriously, it's painful and ridiculous.

Remove the ALL cards. Put options on the rest.


Now I'm going to assume that you are actually interested in another opinion, and not just mad because you lost a game...

As Stevens points out, Phil McD's little post is a good way to start. The 500+ pages strategy guide coming out by Praxeo might also help you (but only if you read French) win more than you loose.

In my eyes the command cards don't represent actual shots fired, but units being ordered to do something USEFUL. Most of the time in war is spend waiting to go here or there or stationary in a position making puck-shots against an opponent hiding somewhere in those woods over there, you think...
Your complain about a single Infantry unit taking out a flank single handedly has happened more times than you think in war. Why didn't any of the units fight back? Fog of war, bad intelligence, bad officers, miscommunication, there's literally hundreds of things that could be wrong. Now you could make rules for EVERY thing (and some games try, and fail, IMO) or you could keep it simple and still manage to have fun with history as Mem44 does.

For a discussion on number of figs and firepower go HERE

Magnus
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 10:21
moflaher wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 04:38

I can't play another game until they fix the problem with having all your cards in one section while one infantry unit makes it way through ALL your tanks and infantry units in the other sections.


Did you shuffle the cards before dealing them out? Rolling Eyes


      
Nordiskanc
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 13:22
I'd say play Overlord, more cards in the hand (say 10 instead of 5 as per scenario rules). Less chance of getting "stuck" with a bad hand.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 13:32
Nordiskanc wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 15:22

I'd say play Overlord, more cards in the hand (say 10 instead of 5 as per scenario rules). Less chance of getting "stuck" with a bad hand.


With this format you also have the option of rolling for initiative if you want! For that matter, you could play with the initiative roll in every game...the key is to have fun, and if it takes a few house rules to make it fun for you, I would say go for it!
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 15:24
I agree with all the responses here.

But...

It would be cool if there was some type of official rule for putting a unit "on alert" or "standby" (or whatever you want to call it) so that it could fire defensively, if an enemy unit entered its range/LOS.

Maybe instead of playing a card, a player could put a unit on "standby" (marked with a token) and that unit could then preemptively fire once before the token was removed? I dunno...
      
Vulch
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 18:01
OldBloodandGuts wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 14:24


It would be cool if there was some type of official rule for putting a unit "on alert" or "standby" (or whatever you want to call it) so that it could fire defensively, if an enemy unit entered its range/LOS.

Maybe instead of playing a card, a player could put a unit on "standby" (marked with a token) and that unit could then preemptively fire once before the token was removed? I dunno...


Which sounds very similar to the ambush card Rolling Eyes
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Rebalance Fri, 13 May 2011 20:07
Vulch wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 12:01

OldBloodandGuts wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 14:24


It would be cool if there was some type of official rule for putting a unit "on alert" or "standby" (or whatever you want to call it) so that it could fire defensively, if an enemy unit entered its range/LOS.

Maybe instead of playing a card, a player could put a unit on "standby" (marked with a token) and that unit could then preemptively fire once before the token was removed? I dunno...


Which sounds very similar to the ambush card Rolling Eyes


...except you wouldn't be limited to close assaults, and you wouldn't be limited by when you get the card. Other than that, totally the same...
      
tank commander
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 11:25
moflaher wrote on Thu, 12 May 2011 23:38

This game is painfully unbalanced. It would be nice if they finally fixed it by at least fixing the cards. I can't play another game until they fix the problem with having all your cards in one section while one infantry unit makes it way through ALL your tanks and infantry units in the other sections. This makes it not even a game. Even farmers fought back. Where's the return fire? Also, 1 unit should not have the strength of a full healthy unit. I don't buy that this would change the game. It would simply fix the terrible flaws. Seriously, it's painful and ridiculous.

Remove the ALL cards. Put options on the rest.



Well,exactly how many games have you played?

If you are looking for a major overhaul of the system you will have to relay on house rules (your own and / or others) and then find another player who agrees to use them (or play solo).

I do not know if that is worth your time or not. It sounds like you are not happy at all with the game so you might be better off looking elsewhere.

However, I think if you stick with it and follow the good advice / tips given above you may discover a gem.

I play with the RAW and think the system works just fine for what it is -- expecting it to be something it is not will certainly lead to disappointment.

      
sam1812
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 12:57
I second everything Tank Commander says here, and I know that he speaks from the experience of a vast collection of games.

Memoir isn't intended to be a detailed, realistic simulation of war. Personally, I think of it as being an abstract strategy game with a WW2 theme. And based on my own experience (recognizing that others will vary on this), it's about 75% skill and 25% luck.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 15:34
It's kind of amusing that moflaher posted the initial comment and we've done such a thorough job of answering it...but we haven't heard from moflaher again. I wonder if he's even reading this thread any more or if it was just a temporary rant and he's moved on. Razz

No matter what, you guys have done a great job convincing me that Memoir '44 is a great game as it was written. Nice work! Laughing Very Happy
      
stevens
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 17:05
I know that as a newbie, I often misplayed my cards and it took me awhile (with good coaching from some of the guys who have also posted) to sort of figure out how to manage my cards and best utilize the forces I had.
Unfortunately, it seems that Moflaher is lacking this mentoring spirit in his online games and is experiencing the normal frustration many new players experience.
I think we as senior players ought to consider offering him our services and see if he would benefit from a little coaching.
I think he might be encouraged by a PM from this group and maybe we can show him why we love this game as it is.

I know that Memoir '44 is not everyone's cup of tea, so there is no guarantee that we will make a convert, but no harm in asking.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 17:07]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 19:26
stevens wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 19:05

I know that as a newbie, I often misplayed my cards and it took me awhile (with good coaching from some of the guys who have also posted) to sort of figure out how to manage my cards and best utilize the forces I had.
Unfortunately, it seems that Moflaher is lacking this mentoring spirit in his online games and is experiencing the normal frustration many new players experience.
I think we as senior players ought to consider offering him our services and see if he would benefit from a little coaching.
I think he might be encouraged by a PM from this group and maybe we can show him why we love this game as it is.

I know that Memoir '44 is not everyone's cup of tea, so there is no guarantee that we will make a convert, but no harm in asking.


I think that's a great idea! It's possible that he doesn't check the forum (or his account) very often so he might not get it for a while, but it's worth asking if he would like a guided tour of why we love the game.

Good thinking, Paul! If you have time, I think you would be a great guide. Smile
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 19:55
Maybe you could solve the problem by giving each player a full deck and he being able to choose from the whole deck.

I used to have a house rule to eliminate the cards problem by playing without cards : each player has to play his turn with DFHQ : Each turn, order four units.

BUT :
I think one of the great tactical issues of M44 is to think ahead : Look at the rest of your cards and move your units to have the advantage from the rest of the cards. M44 has a certain factor of luck, but one can force one's luck. Dice is another question.
(Sorry for my poor English).

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 20:05]

      
moflaher
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 20:52
That's maybe because I have a job.
The first thing I would like to point out is that I did not post because I lost a game. The second thing I would like to point out is that I have played this game over 200 times.

I made a post due to flaws I see in the game design that could be fixed and made better. But since you have it all figured out, I guess there isn't any room for improvement - right? Everything is always good like it is - right? Nothing ever needs updates or improvements?

Both the opponents I have played and myself have had many games where you never moved any units in a region while the other side wipes them out. That has nothing to do with resource management, playing Recon-1 cards, retreating wounded units, etc. Yes, I do come from ASL and see this as a non strategic game due to all the luck(cards and dice). If you say there is no luck in this game and claim this happens all the time in real war - a couple of men taking out 15 tanks, you don't know what you are talking about. Could that happen on rare occasions? Yes. All the time? No.

I even have a problem with Combat Commander thanks to the cards - you can win or lose on the "luck" of a draw.

You cannot employ a strategy and carry it out in this game. Even if you did have 4 cards in the same region and you attack - which I have done many times, if you are not lucky, you run out of cards then watch while your strategy goes down the drain.

However, I see potential by balancing the cards. Removing the All section cards and putting options on all the cards where some sections have better options than others (where you choose the section) as a better way to allow for more strategy. I see no strategy in watching units get wiped out in sections you don't have cards in while having cards in sections you don't have any units in from the start.


As for the Ambush card - again, that only works if you are lucky enough to get one. Adding the suggested def or return fire is a start.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 20:56]

      
moflaher
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 20:59
Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 10:55

Maybe you could solve the problem by giving each player a full deck and he being able to choose from the whole deck.

I used to have a house rule to eliminate the cards problem by playing without cards : each player has to play his turn with DFHQ : Each turn, order four units.

BUT :
I think one of the great tactical issues of M44 is to think ahead : Look at the rest of your cards and move your units to have the advantage from the rest of the cards. M44 has a certain factor of luck, but one can force one's luck. Dice is another question.
(Sorry for my poor English).



This is an excellent suggestion.

As for the BUT, Again, can you imagine chess with cards. I'm sorry, you don't get to move this turn. The whole idea of war games is to pit your strategy against another's.

Removing cards and adding resources you can use to determine how many units you can move is a great idea (I have never been a proponent of adding luck on top of luck - i.e. cards and dice). Some people will say this changes the whole game. Right? How would they know until they have actually tried it? There are people who put on blinders and never want anything to change. I see it with my engineers, I see it with designers, I see it in every field. This often leads to getting left behind.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:10]

      
tank commander
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 21:21
It took you over 200 playthroughs to decide that you would play no more Shocked

I have played wargames for over 40 yrs. I own several hundred of them and have played over a hundred of those (wish I had the time to play all of them - perhaps one day).

Each one that I have played has flaws (even my favorites) and each probably could have been improved upon (at least IMO).

Is Mem '44 perfect - no. But I play it knowing what it is and that is good enough for me when I play that game (if I wish to play something more "realistic" I have many options waiting on my game shelves).

Have I had those bad situations that you bring up happen to me? Yes, but I do not paint such a gloomy picture of the game's overall effect as you do.

As to the Assault cards you wish to get rid of, I cannot understand why. They can be over powering at times but so can some other cards in that same deck.

I can "suffer" through a bad game or two in every 10 (as will my opponent every once in a while) as the others are usually exciting contests.

Like I said before, Mem '44 as it stands does not meet your expectations. You are not alone as there are many who have come up with house rules of one type or another. But there is a loyal camp following (which I suspect is somewhat larger than the naysayers) that are more than happy to play the game as it is.

You are entitled to your thoughts and to play the game (or not play) as you wish of course. I am sorry that we could not help you in this matter.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:23]

      
moflaher
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 21:22
stevens wrote on Thu, 12 May 2011 21:32

If the game were seriously flawed those of us who have been playing the game for almost 5 years would have given up by now.

Although in any game, there may be an occaision where yes you do get a bad run of cards or dice, this is not the norm. The issue is usually not the cards, the dice or other intangibles, it is usually the way you are managing your playing hand which needs some improvement.
The following is from a post by Phil McD and I think it may be helpful in recalibrating your approach.

Quote:

Things to consider when playing Memoir 44:
1. M44 is a hand management game that happens to have a war theme.

2. DON'T advance units just to take your best available shot on a turn-by turn basis.

3. NEVER advance units if you don't have at least one more card (and
preferably 2) in your hand that can order them. You will only leave them
stranded for your opponent to defeat in detail.

4. Use dotted line hexes to your advantage. Shift units from one section to
another if you have a lot of cards for one section. Tanks are particularly
useful for this, but so are infantry advancing in hexes on or adjacent to
dotted lines.

5. If you are dealt a particularly poor opening set of cards, don't start
advancing troops until you've re-modeled or at least improved your hand.
Moving units forward from the second sea row is an excellent way of
buying time beneficially in a beachhead scenario.

6. Retreating a crippled unit with a Recon-1 card and getting a choice of 2
cards is NOT a wasted turn. A medal saved is as good as a medal won.

7. Get blocking cards out of your hand immediately at the start of the game
or as quickly as possible when you draw them. For example Dig-In and an
Armor Assault or an Artillery Bombard (if you don't have the required
units) will just sit in your hand and fester if you don't get rid of it, limiting
your choice of actions for the rest of the game. Yes, they can be useful as
a single order anywhere card, but not at the expense of sitting there for
ages, particularly if you only have 4 or 5 cards. Use them and lose them.

8. You should know what card you are going to play NEXT turn before you
play THIS turns card. If luck brings you a better option in the card draw
then that's a bonus. This should always be at the forefront of your mind.

Hopefully these tips will be useful. Memoir 44 is primarily intended to be a game of maneuver and strategy, not a toe-to-toe slugfest, although it CAN be played that way too. Dice are the inevitable necessity of a lite game. They produce the predominant factor of chance. If you play your hand well and are not EXTREMELY unlucky, the bad effects of the dice will be limited.

Asymmetric scenarios are what give the game its character and its closest nod towards being a war game. Nonetheless, it is intended that the scenarios be played twice, with all medals being totaled to decide the winner. Even if you can't win a scenario, taking that extra medal can still bring victory in the end.





Yes, I have seen this many times. Basic strategy. But none of it fixes one bad card after another. You can dump all the bad cards you get but that does nothing when you keep getting the same cards. The problem is the card balance. You can't manage resources you don't have. Things like - You should know the card you are going to play the next turn is simply dumb. Who plays a war game and does not think out several moves ahead. Get blocking cards out of your hand, use dotted lines, don't attack in regions you don't have a lot of cards in is a bit common sense don't you think? Look, this is all great advice for someone who has never played a game before. But it has nothing to do with the perceived flaws.

But I get it. You guys love the game the way it is. Nothing should ever change. That's great. I was just suggesting improvements that would allow for people to not just manage resources but to actually pit one's strategy against another's. If this makes people angry, forget I ever said anything.

Also, I do understand the appeal. I like to play it too. That is why I posted the suggestions. I see a lot of potential. But it's not going to be the first game off my shelf. I think it's great for kids too; I enjoy playing it with my kids due to it's simplicity.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:29]

      
moflaher
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 21:36
tank commander wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 12:21

It took you over 200 playthroughs to decide that you would play no more Shocked

I have played wargames for over 40 yrs. I own several hundred of them and have played over a hundred of those (wish I had the time to play all of them - perhaps one day).

Each one that I have played has flaws (even my favorites) and each probably could have been improved upon (at least IMO).

Is Mem '44 perfect - no. But I play it knowing what it is and that is good enough for me when I play that game (if I wish to play something more "realistic" I have many options waiting on my game shelves).

Have I had those bad situations that you bring up happen to me? Yes, but I do not paint such a gloomy picture of the game's overall effect as you do.

As to the Assault cards you wish to get rid of, I cannot understand why. They can be over powering at times but so can some other cards in that same deck.

I can "suffer" through a bad game or two in every 10 (as will my opponent every once in a while) as the others are usually exciting contests.

Like I said before, Mem '44 as it stands does not meet your expectations. You are not alone as there are many who have come up with house rules of one type or another. But there is a loyal camp following (which I suspect is somewhat larger than the naysayers) that are more than happy to play the game as it is.

You are entitled to your thoughts and to play the game (or not play) as you wish of course. I am sorry that we could not help you in this matter.




First, it's not a gloomy picture. It's called suggestions. So what I hear you saying is that all games have flaws - agreed. So does this mean suggest nothing? It would seem that anyone making suggestions here is not welcome - by the negative responses in all the posts. That's too bad because even Chad - the designer of Combat Commander, likes to hear suggestions. And he responds positively to them. That is how he came to design the new Fighting Formations. That's the difference between turning a blind eye and doing something about it.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:46]

      
moflaher
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 21:38
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 06:34

It's kind of amusing that moflaher posted the initial comment and we've done such a thorough job of answering it...but we haven't heard from moflaher again. I wonder if he's even reading this thread any more or if it was just a temporary rant and he's moved on. Razz

No matter what, you guys have done a great job convincing me that Memoir '44 is a great game as it was written. Nice work! Laughing Very Happy



Are you still amused?
      
tank commander
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 21:41
As far as I know none of the posters here have anything to do with the design of this game nor do they have the power to make official changes to it.

You might be better served offering up your suggestions to the "powers that be" - you never know what might happen Smile

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:42]

      
moflaher
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 21:42
Nygaard wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 00:14

moflaher wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 05:38

This game is painfully unbalanced. It would be nice if they finally fixed it by at least fixing the cards. I can't play another game until they fix the problem with having all your cards in one section while one infantry unit makes it way through ALL your tanks and infantry units in the other sections. This makes it not even a game. Even farmers fought back. Where's the return fire? Also, 1 unit should not have the strength of a full healthy unit. I don't buy that this would change the game. It would simply fix the terrible flaws. Seriously, it's painful and ridiculous.

Remove the ALL cards. Put options on the rest.


Now I'm going to assume that you are actually interested in another opinion, and not just mad because you lost a game...

As Stevens points out, Phil McD's little post is a good way to start. The 500+ pages strategy guide coming out by Praxeo might also help you (but only if you read French) win more than you loose.

In my eyes the command cards don't represent actual shots fired, but units being ordered to do something USEFUL. Most of the time in war is spend waiting to go here or there or stationary in a position making puck-shots against an opponent hiding somewhere in those woods over there, you think...
Your complain about a single Infantry unit taking out a flank single handedly has happened more times than you think in war. Why didn't any of the units fight back? Fog of war, bad intelligence, bad officers, miscommunication, there's literally hundreds of things that could be wrong. Now you could make rules for EVERY thing (and some games try, and fail, IMO) or you could keep it simple and still manage to have fun with history as Mem44 does.

For a discussion on number of figs and firepower go HERE

Magnus


Yes, I am. Unlike others, I am interested in others opinions. I understand your point about doing something USEFUL. How can you do that without cards?

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:42]

      
stevens
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 21:43
Quote:

But I get it. You guys love the game the way it is.


In the end, what you say is exactly true. And if I want to play with a more tweaked version of the rules with my friends, I always have that option.

I can tell you that all of these guys want to be helpful, want to encourage game play and more than anything, like to have fun. So I hope you do not take what was said in this forum in anyway as a personal afront. And I am personally sorry if I assumed you were a novice to this game. I have just heard similar comments from novices and apparently followed the wrong rabbit trail in trying to respond to your concerns. No harm or insult intended.




[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:43]

      
moflaher
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Re:Rebalance Sat, 14 May 2011 23:41
tank commander wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 12:41

As far as I know none of the posters here have anything to do with the design of this game nor do they have the power to make official changes to it.

You might be better served offering up your suggestions to the "powers that be" - you never know what might happen Smile


So, you think none of the "Power to be" read the forums? If you own a business and reading the forums is not required reading, you won't be in business too long.
      
tank commander
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October 2004
Re:Rebalance Sun, 15 May 2011 00:01
moflaher wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 17:41

tank commander wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 12:41

As far as I know none of the posters here have anything to do with the design of this game nor do they have the power to make official changes to it.

You might be better served offering up your suggestions to the "powers that be" - you never know what might happen Smile


So, you think none of the "Power to be" read the forums? If you own a business and reading the forums is not required reading, you won't be in business too long.



Hmmm, I do not believe that my last post stated I thought that anyone who is employed by DOW does not read these forums. As a matter of fact I know they do, but trying to get your type of message across may be better done directly, not through these forums.

With that, I am siging off here as I like to do my own thinking.

You can lead a horse to water and you cannot beat a dead horse but you can saddle up a horse and ride off into the sunset Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Sun, 15 May 2011 00:15]

      
stevens
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Re:Rebalance Sun, 15 May 2011 00:22
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5BV_YADVD7o/TRCo20UIQtI/AAAAAAAAFAc/uaVab0ScAqo/s320/cowboy-sunset.jpg

Hi Ho Silver!!
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Rebalance Sun, 15 May 2011 02:53
stevens wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 18:22

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5BV_YADVD7o/TRCo20UIQtI/AAAAAAAAFAc/uaVab0ScAqo/s320/cowboy-sunset.jpg

Hi Ho Silver!!


...this makes me want a Marlboro for some reason...
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Rebalance Sun, 15 May 2011 05:11
moflaher wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 23:38

rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 06:34

It's kind of amusing that moflaher posted the initial comment and we've done such a thorough job of answering it...but we haven't heard from moflaher again. I wonder if he's even reading this thread any more or if it was just a temporary rant and he's moved on. Razz

No matter what, you guys have done a great job convincing me that Memoir '44 is a great game as it was written. Nice work! Laughing Very Happy



Are you still amused?


Yes, very. I wasn't saying I was amused because you hadn't posted...I was amused because without any further feedback from you (the original poster) we all continued to explain why we like the game so much as it is. It's amusing to me because it started to look like we were simply convincing each other, even though we already agreed.

I'm sorry if you've felt attacked in some way for your view point. Like people have already said, your initial comment is one we hear sometimes from players who have only played a few games and don't understand some of the basic tactics. If you've played 200 games, that's clearly not you.

You're welcome to play with house rules (and many people do) to help make this a better game for you, but I enjoy the game as it is; dice, cards, occasional frustration, and all. Cool

In the end, having fun is the key and you can do whatever you need to ensure that Memoir '44 is fun for you. Smile
      
Phread
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Re:Rebalance Sun, 15 May 2011 06:40
Ocassional frustration?

I am frequently frustrated and some of that is with my cards and dice in M44 !! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
ad79
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September 2007
Re:Rebalance Sun, 15 May 2011 07:52
moflaher wrote on Fri, 13 May 2011 05:38

This game is painfully unbalanced. It would be nice if they finally fixed it by at least fixing the cards. I can't play another game until they fix the problem with having all your cards in one section while one infantry unit makes it way through ALL your tanks and infantry units in the other sections. This makes it not even a game. Even farmers fought back. Where's the return fire? Also, 1 unit should not have the strength of a full healthy unit. I don't buy that this would change the game. It would simply fix the terrible flaws. Seriously, it's painful and ridiculous.

Remove the ALL cards. Put options on the rest.


Hi moflaher

I have read this thread with interest, and your comments tells to me that you might not prefer playing card driven games, which M'44 and CC is. When I first read your original post I thought: ASL might be the answer, but then you replied that you came from that game, so it shines through that you like that kind of control in your games. Not every game can suit every player, but I understand that you want to like this game as an alternatie to ASL.

I have 2 questions for you, and none of them meant to disrespect you, but I am as you put it, one of those that like the game and wouldn't want anything to change.

1. Have you tried the game with your proposed rulechanges?
Return fire. Do you propose to allow this for every unit or just those that stand their ground like the BEF? Before or after the enemy attack?
1 figure should not have the same strength as a full unit. What firepower would you propose for 1 figure? For 2 figures? For 3 figures?
Remove the ALL cards. Do you want to remoe it altogether or put in a maximum number of units you can order, say 4?
Put options on the other cards. Do you want an option on all the section cards? Why not just omit the words "Right, Center and left" on the cards? "Order two units in a section" Maybe that would work better for you?

Actually this turned out to be more than 2 questions as I have my second left. Embarassed

2. Considering you have over 200 games played, you might have tried the "Breakthrough deck" but you don't mention it so I would like to ask anyway. have you tried it, and if you have, did you find that deck equally painful?

I have played some standard deck scenarios by using the "On the Move" option on the section cards. It worked very well and didn't unbalance the scenario as I saw it, but you can manouvre more units.

It would be nice if you could do some work with those ruleproposals you made and maybe post them for all to see. There hae been a few alternative rules posted oer the last years both here and on boardgamegeek.com so there might be some interest for your alternative rules, even if us regulars like the game as it is.

Hope you find a way to enjoy the game, as I don't think DOW will release an "Advanced" or "alternative" version of Memoir. Have you tried "C&C Ancients"? that game has battleback at least.

For me, when I don't want a game with luck, I play Napoleon's Triumph. Awesome fun of a completely different kind than Memoir.

Stig Morten
      
Nygaard
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Re:Rebalance Sun, 15 May 2011 08:07
moflaher wrote on Sat, 14 May 2011 21:42



Yes, I am. Unlike others, I am interested in others opinions. I understand your point about doing something USEFUL. How can you do that without cards?



You know that pretty much everybody who posted here do so because they are interested in the game and people's opinion about it, right? So that comment might come off a tad insulting.

But anyway. You are right - without cards, no command. Now if you don't like it like that, but still like miniatures and hexes, try Tide of Iron. Funny enough it was exactly the command system I didn't like, but it might suit you, since it's not as random.

And you must admit that it's a bit strange to play hundreds of games before deciding that the basic premise for the game is not to your liking. I have a whole list of Command & Colors games I'd advice you against...

[Updated on: Sun, 15 May 2011 08:08]

      
Elendil90
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January 2011
Re:Rebalance Mon, 16 May 2011 21:16
I think the point of the cards is to limit the players' options and thereby reduce the amount of thinking and strategy necessary, making the game easier. If you find the game frustrating as is, the solution is simple: use more cards! 8-10 per side ought to produce a more strategic game.
      
Phread
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Re:Rebalance Mon, 16 May 2011 23:12
Sir Dave wrote on Tue, 17 May 2011 07:16

I think the point of the cards is to limit the players' options and thereby reduce the amount of thinking and strategy necessary, making the game easier. If you find the game frustrating as is, the solution is simple: use more cards! 8-10 per side ought to produce a more strategic game.


8-10 cards per side would produce a slugfest, not a strategic game. More cards in each player's hand will result in more combat not strategy.

If you want more choice (implying more strategy) draw two and keep one for every card, on a recon-1 draw 3 and keep 1.

      
    
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