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bkmartin26
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Wire ... how to handle? Mon, 17 May 2004 16:42
During a playing of Pegasus Bridge, the following questions came up about Wire ...

1) Can a unit battle on the same turn in which it enters wire?

2) If a unit can battle on the same turn, can it then refuse that battle to remove the wire?

My reason for asking is that the rulebook doesn't have a restriction on move and battle on wire, so we played that you not only can move onto wire, but, if you only move one hex, you can also remove the wire.

I submit that this gives the attacker far too much power. The rule should force dealing with wire as follows (for infantry units only):

1) Move into wire and stop.

2) To remove wire, you must start your turn in the hex, and do nothing but remove wire. An infantry unit cannot move on a turn in which it removes wire.

3) Units *in* wire are attacked with one additional die. Units which attack *from* wire attack with one fewer die.

The notion here is that being *in* wire involves serious risk while tangled in it, and that removing it requires units to assume the risk while untangling themselves. Of course, a unit trying to fire *from* wire should be handicapped in some way, as well.

Brien
      
eric
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Mon, 17 May 2004 17:14
1) yes, assuming it could if the wire wasn;t there (ie an infantry moving 1 hex into wire can battle, but one moving 2 hexes could not - just like it would not on regular terrain)
2) yes, that is exactly the effect. If an infantry can battle after moving into a wire hex, it may then battle (at -1 die) OR remove the wire this turn.

The attacker must make a choice (going on to fight at -1 die, OR removing the wire and not battling this turn), so he doesn't have that much power Wink. Or I may have missed something in your question.

eric

[Updated on: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:15]

      
bkmartin26
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Mon, 17 May 2004 17:33
Eric:

I appreciate the answer.

However, the infantry is rarely going to be "held up" by wire using the existing rules. They can move onto *and* remove wire in the same game turn, with no advantage given to the forces set up on the other side of the wire.

Surely, there should be some danger to advancing into wire. That's why I suggested that wire should be a "stop and end turn" type of terrain, with a +1 for units who attack *into* wire and a -1 for units attacking *out of* wire.

You'll make wire more dangerous to navigate, but that would be the case, as wire was generally placed in open, exposed areas. Trying to clear wire with no cover is dangerous, and the +1 to incoming fire simulates that perfectly.

Oooh ... I smell a house rule coming on ...

Brien
      
BloodyBucket
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 18 May 2004 05:58
House wire rule? Cool!
      
dfristrom
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 18 May 2004 18:43
bkmartin26 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 11:33

However, the infantry is rarely going to be "held up" by wire using the existing rules. They can move onto *and* remove wire in the same game turn, with no advantage given to the forces set up on the other side of the wire.



But the defender in this situation does have an advantage -- the attacker had to spend a turn removing wire when he or she could otherwise have been shooting. As a defender, I would see that as a definite advantage.

I haven't had a chance to play Memoir '44 yet (I hate waiting!), but in Battle Cry losing the chance to shoot can have a major impact, especially since you have just moved yourself closer to the enemy.
      
bkmartin26
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 18 May 2004 18:48
Except that, because of the way the rules are written, wire is virtually meaningless because you can move into, and remove, said wire in one turn.

So, you can whack me with three dice on your turn, and I get to whack you back the next turn with three of my own.

Wouldn't it be better, and more dangerous, if, while I was in that wire, that you got to roll *four* dice against me? And, because I can't move into wire *and* remove it, wouldn't it give me, the attacker, another option ... not fire next turn to remove the wire (and give you another four-dice shot) or fire from within the wire, but with two dice?

I think my house rule opens up some interesting decisions for the attacker, because it's going to take two turns, under withering fire, to remove the wire. Would you risk losing a unit for that benefit? Right now, the defender cannot eliminate such a unit with one, three-dice shot ... and he only gets one chance before the attacker can come right back at him.

Brien
      
Yann
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 18 May 2004 20:22
Actually, in my own (limited) experience, I think the wires are already a pain in the neck the way they are right now. Wink

This is because (1) I have to stop and (2) because I have to waste a shot to remove them. So in effect, I am exposing myself to the ennemy fire and I am loosing the initiative of the attack.

The Omaha Beach scenario reminds me every time about this when I play the Allies Wink - and loose every time Rolling Eyes



      
BloodyBucket
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Wed, 19 May 2004 06:10
The proposed wire rules could sure be used as a "handicap" for a defender.
      
eric
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Wed, 19 May 2004 16:50
yes, that's a great idea!
Now, the question is why would the Allied player need a handicap slogging his way up Omaha Beach ? Laughing
His vision must be impaired, I guess, with all those artillery shells, so maybe he thinks the current set up would be a walk in the park ? (it ain't exactly Very Happy )
eric
      
moofrank
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Thu, 20 May 2004 02:54
Actually the current wire rules feel about correct. Especially on the Omaha Beach scenario as Yann pointed out.

Pegasus Bridge gives you a hint of the issues involved with wire. The left hand side of the map has a bridge being guarded by a unit sitting behind sandbags and only reachable through a pair of wire hexes. And there is a second unit right behind him.

If you move two units up to the wire, do you stop in front of the wire and open fire at a range of 2 hexes, or go on into the wire with both units and do nothing while your opponent fires at your units with a full 3 dice (main unit), + 2 dice (reinforcing unit.)

That ton of wire also makes it very tricky to use the rangers much on Omaha Beach. They HAVE to stop running through that wire hex, which is right next to that annoying artillery bunker.

Moo
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eric
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Thu, 20 May 2004 03:07
Yes, on Omaha (more so than on Sword), ANNOYING is the word, for that artillery bunker Very Happy
eric
      
eric
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Thu, 20 May 2004 03:11
dfristrom wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 09:43

bkmartin26 wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 11:33

However, the infantry is rarely going to be "held up" by wire using the existing rules. They can move onto *and* remove wire in the same game turn, with no advantage given to the forces set up on the other side of the wire.



But the defender in this situation does have an advantage -- the attacker had to spend a turn removing wire when he or she could otherwise have been shooting. As a defender, I would see that as a definite advantage.

I haven't had a chance to play Memoir '44 yet (I hate waiting!), but in Battle Cry losing the chance to shoot can have a major impact, especially since you have just moved yourself closer to the enemy.


Besides, my experience watching quite a few games, is that _most players_ will fear the thought of spending their turn removing the wire so much that they will in general choose to shoot at -1 die instead(a big disadvantage, I'll post the stats for dice rolling one day). This is generally a bad choice, 'cause the next turn, you're still shooting at -1 from those darned wires.

It also just so happens that wires are usually found sitting next to fortified/sandbagged positions. Laughing

eric

[Updated on: Thu, 20 May 2004 03:13]

      
Znapperhead
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Thu, 20 May 2004 16:14
I feel that you actually don't have to modify the wire-rules. They work perfectly if you ask me Smile
      
Brett
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Mon, 24 May 2004 02:51
Keep in mind that you are -1 dice shooting/battiling out of it. That -1 is added to any terrain modifer as well. Example - the wire in front of the bunkers on sword beach. Infantry is -1 vs bunker and would also be -1 for battiling/shooting in the wire.

Its one of the only times the modifiers stack like that. It makes wire the pain in the tookus it is supposed to be Smile

So you can battle at 1 dice in the case above, or remove the wire, so next turn you're at 2 dice (plus the wire is gone!).
      
leonnez
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 19 September 2006 04:51
If a unit lands on barbed wire and decides to battle instead of remove wire, can the unit just move out of barbed wire hex on his next turn, and leave barbed wire as is? Like it just passed through it? Or is it mandatory it remove barbed wire before moving off?
      
yangtze
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 19 September 2006 10:32
Oh, don't start me on Omaha... how many times have I assaulted that German left wing with my hopes up and my head held high...

'... this time, the tanks'll hunker up next to the sea wall, the Rangers and the grunts are gonna hit the artillery all at once! This time...'

...and then you have to watch your brave lads getting shelled to smithereens in the sea.

No, don't start me on Omaha...
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 19 September 2006 13:34
leonnez wrote on Mon, 18 September 2006 21:51

If a unit lands on barbed wire and decides to battle instead of remove wire, can the unit just move out of barbed wire hex on his next turn, and leave barbed wire as is? Like it just passed through it? Or is it mandatory it remove barbed wire before moving off?

An infantry unit that lands on the wire does not have to remove it - so, yes, it can move right past it. A tank, however, must remove it and must do so upon entering the hex. So in this case it is mandatory that it be removed (think of it as crushing the wire as it rolls by).
      
yangtze
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Tue, 19 September 2006 15:03
I appreciate the maths on the dice rolling in wire, Eric, but circumstances have a big impact on the decision too. If you're down to 2 figs of infantry next to the artillery, particularly if you've knocked the guns down to 1 fig, I think the best course of action is to fire with 1 die and hope to get lucky, rather than risk obliteration without having done any damage on the Germans' next turn.

On the other hand, if you're at full strength in the wire, and you've got plenty of back-up, then removing the wire is probably the best choice. But when did that ever happen in the Omaha scenario?

[Updated on: Tue, 19 September 2006 15:06]

      
leonnez
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Thu, 21 September 2006 02:18
Let's say one of my infantry units lands on a Barbed Wire hex and cannot battle. On my next turn, am I correct to say I have four options; (1) to do battle minus one dice, (2)remove wire, or (3)advance one hex and do battle, or (4)advance two hexes and not do battle?
      
JMcL63
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Thu, 21 September 2006 03:48
leonnez wrote on Thu, 21 September 2006 01:18

Let's say one of my infantry units lands on a Barbed Wire hex and cannot battle. On my next turn, am I correct to say I have four options; (1) to do battle minus one dice, (2)remove wire, or (3)advance one hex and do battle, or (4)advance two hexes and not do battle?

Yes, I'd say you're correct leonnez. Wink
      
Astrologer
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Wed, 06 December 2006 08:31
For the scale of the game, the wire rules are perfect.

All it is there to do is to delay you, hold you up, while the clifftop bunkers waste your guys.

If you have guys who are bold and lucky they might get a shot at blowing the wire with a bangalore, etc.

If not, go through it, it's hell. And the guys behind you have to deal with it, when they make their run.

Rommel designed it, yes?

I think it does a more than fine job of representing how difficult the real deal is / was to handle.



      
UKDane
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Sun, 12 June 2011 20:44
Hi,
I have a question about battling across wire.
The rules say that "In wire, Infantry battles out at -1 die".
I get this, my question though, is if I have infantry in the hex adjacent to the hex containing the wire, and they are battling against an opponent in a hex on the opposite, adjacent side of the hex containing the wire, do they battle at -1 too?
In this instance, I'm assuming that both infantry are on regular "countryside" hex tiles.
If there was no wire between them, then they'd use 2 die, BUT because they are battling "across" the wire, that doesn't block line of site, do they still battle using 2 die, or should it be 1 die, (because of the -1 of the wire).
Thanks
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Sun, 12 June 2011 20:54
UKDane wrote on Sun, 12 June 2011 22:44

Hi,
I have a question about battling across wire.
The rules say that "In wire, Infantry battles out at -1 die".
I get this, my question though, is if I have infantry in the hex adjacent to the hex containing the wire, and they are battling against an opponent in a hex on the opposite, adjacent side of the hex containing the wire, do they battle at -1 too?
In this instance, I'm assuming that both infantry are on regular "countryside" hex tiles.
If there was no wire between them, then they'd use 2 die, BUT because they are battling "across" the wire, that doesn't block line of site, do they still battle using 2 die, or should it be 1 die, (because of the -1 of the wire).
Thanks


They will battle with 2 dice against each other. Infantry only suffer from the -1 when they are in the same hex with the wire. Smile

It is also worth noting (though you might already know this) that any unit in Wire battles out at -1. What I mean by this, is that it doesn't matter which side placed the wire...anyone in the hex with wire will suffer from the battle die reduction. Also, the -1 from wire and the -1 from protection will add together to reduce an attack -2.

So a unit in wire (-1), attacking an adjacent unit in Sandbags (-1) will attack with 1 die, because it would be 3 dice -2 = 1 die. I hope this helps! Cool
      
UKDane
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Sun, 12 June 2011 21:17
Thanks, yes, your answer is clear, concise, and understood.
I prveiously understood your additional detail, but just wanted to clear up about battling "across" the wire, as I couldn't quite see the "logical" reason for it not applying.
What I mean by this, is that when teaching the rules to my son, I can normally apply a logical explanation, which helps him understand the rules. For example, you can't battle through your own infantry, as that would risk shooting them in the back. But with the wire, I couldn't apply the logic- it's harder to shoot when you're in the wire, than when you're behind it. (The die roll would indicate that it's equally difficult, but for different reasons, to battle from behind the wire, as it is from within the wire).
      
trumpetman52
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Sun, 12 June 2011 22:07
I have played a lot of strategy/war games and i find that most of the time, playing by the rules provided by the game manufacturer will make the game play very well. I've tried tweaking some games and it added to the rules and did not really enhance the game that much. Also I figure, hopefully correctly, that the game designers have already worked on all different types and theories of game rules and have come up with the current rules for a specific reason.
I personally like the Memoir44 rules just as they are. I like the playability and the fairness of all of the rules. I take into consideration when i am using tanks or other gunned vehicles or armor that this is also a simulation and not an actual battle. After all, I've never seen an M1, firing three hexes, equal the firing range of a tank, firing three hexes.
Memoir44 designers, keep it up, you are doing great. I would like to see more official Pacific scenarios.
Memoir44 players, Keep playing and play with any rules that you and your fellow players would like to incorporate.
EVERYONE have a fun time playing
trumpetman52
      
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Re:Wire ... how to handle? Mon, 13 June 2011 02:48
Honestly, I think the wires are perfect the way they stand right now. If you're on the beach, you've got artillery coming in, bunkers opening up, and then on top of that you're stuck. If it goes to, say, moving in, getting stuck and unable to battle until the next round, wouldn't that be classified as an unfair advantage for the defender?
      
    
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