Memoir '44 D-Day Landings Memoir '44 D-Day Landings

Forums

Search
Forums » Memoir '44 Online - English » How is this "Free to play"?
Show: Today's Posts 
  
AuthorTopic
CrewcutJim
Junior Member
First Lieutenant

Posts: 5
Registered:
June 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 16:43
I don't think anyone is complaining that you have to pay to play for some games. What bugs me is it was advertised as "Free to Play", not demo, or "Free to Try". I wondered why I was paying on DOW when I could play for free on Steam, so I downloaded the steam version which screwed up my DOW version. I only had a 100 or so GI left on DOW and glad I didn't just purchase more. If the steam version robs players from the DOW version who would I play anyway with my gold. I liked the dedicated bunch of Memoir players on DOW and don't want to deal with steam griefers. I deleted both versions and won't be back and would hesitate to buy any other DOW games.
      
JamesJacked
Junior Member
Cadet

Posts: 8
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 17:10
I think it's already been established this isn't free to play by this point. But you're probably right to move it, it wouldn't be too hard to make parts of it F2P though.

---
As a gamer or consumer when being sold something giving feedback or complaining is almost a right, it's push and push back, what they sell and what is accepted by the market. How else would developers and sales know how to improve, it's not enough to say don't like it don't play. If you like it but don't see it as very fair to gaming or gamers in general, say so. Besides I see this as more constructive feedback for the developers.
---

I'm not a massive fan of microtransactions but they have there place in traditional games. I have some experience of this believe me. (though I consider Zynga games to be the antithesis of gaming and avoid like the plague, they really are mind numbing one-armed-bandits).

The thing is the microtransactions were always for something *extra* on top of the base game, not for access to the base game itself which is the problem you'll find most gamers coming up against. It's a little odd for a gamer to say you can pay £27 for something and still not 'own' it.

@sdnative Now subscriptions *were* the way for MMRPGs, another area of mainstream gaming, but they are all moving over to free to play, because they know they can give away the base game and get more people playing and more people giving up a small amount of money each for something extra. It's works out for everyone as long as the paid content doesn't ruin the base game balance.

Look at the long list of traditional MMRPG which have now gone F2pP world of warcraft being a good example, they have given the first 20lvls free now. They pretty much got everyone they could with subscriptions for years then broadened out. Same with Starcraft the first 3 lvls are free, and now you simple unlock the rest of the game to continue- no further download necessary. I believe Age of Conan is Free to play, Rift has a 7 day trial, basically all the new MMRPGs coming out. I've generally been against subscription games when they started simply because that's not the type of game I like to play and I like variety rather than paying and feeling like I missing out when not playing that game. They are too time consuming anyway.

@Phread you've spent $180 on ONE game? Why is everyone here so convinced this is the only model to allow continued development? And yet other developers survive on their initial product and perhaps DLC? And before we had DLC there were free map packs made by the company AND the community. I can't get my head around the idea of paying £27 and NOT owning the game I've just bought. That's renting. To say that they wouldn't keep developing is not true. And frankly that is were micro transactions (on top of the base game) WOULD come in to fund other things if need be. As for maps, there's an editor there, you'll have hundreds very soon. Thing of the better good will you'd have in the gaming community if you gave away something for free and got people hooked and then offered to upgrade.

If your going to have micro transactions and something called 'WAR' 'Gold' why the hell can't you win any of it in game? Or place bets on an outcome.

The board game was mentioned before, and now I remember seeing it on shelf. Checking online it's £37, which frankly almost is better value. But board game makers have always been notorious at raising prices, but at least in those cases they have materials costs to cover.

I just think micro transactions for access to a base game is very odd and out of spirit with gaming in general. They only do it because they know they can get more money from causal players buying a £4 package but it won't generate good will.
      
Franck
-= Crew =-

User Pages
Posts: 1044
Registered:
February 2003
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 17:13
Hello

CrewcutJim écrit le Fri, 14 October 2011 16:43

I don't think anyone is complaining that you have to pay to play for some games. What bugs me is it was advertised as "Free to Play", not demo, or "Free to Try". I wondered why I was paying on DOW when I could play for free on Steam, so I downloaded the steam version which screwed up my DOW version. I only had a 100 or so GI left on DOW and glad I didn't just purchase more. If the steam version robs players from the DOW version who would I play anyway with my gold. I liked the dedicated bunch of Memoir players on DOW and don't want to deal with steam griefers. I deleted both versions and won't be back and would hesitate to buy any other DOW games.


As a colleague explained you here, your Gold Ingots are not lost...
All you have to do to get access to them is to log out from your Steam Account and log in with your DoW one...

      
CrewcutJim
Junior Member
First Lieutenant

Posts: 5
Registered:
June 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 18:22
I'm sorry I didn't explain well. I realize my GI are still on the DOW, but I wasn't expecting the steam version to mess with the DOW version since nothing transfers from DOW to Steam (gold, achievements, rank...). It looks like I can't have a steam version and a DOW version (for tournaments?) without logging into each one everytime.

I just don't see that there are enough Memoir players to support two different places to play...it was hard enough to find opponents at certain time of the day on DOW. It seems to me, the steam version will win out eventually if the griefers don't drive the diehards away.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Memoir '44. It was interesting attaining achievements, playing new maps, and gaining rank, but I'm not sure I want to do it all over again on Steam.

One of the things I enjoyed about Memoir was using a few minutes of free time to take Juno or Sword beach for the 100th time. I found myself often playing "solo" because of the lack of opponents or lack of time to play the longer, more complex scenarios. Who doesn't love a tank battle to kill time.
      
eric
-= Crew =-
Advanced Combat Training

User Pages
Posts: 3190
Registered:
October 2002
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 18:26
DavidMoore wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 07:14

As an M44 and Steam player, all I can say is I was surprised to find M44 on Steam, even more surprised to find it listed as free, then a bit annoyed to find out that it isn't free after all. I think DoW just made a mistake, or maybe miscommunicated with Valve (the company that operates Steam).

I would agree with the people who say the free program should be labelled as a demo, but I don't agree that this is some kind of sneaky trick. DoW are venturing into a new area, and mistakes like this happen.

Just relax and enjoy. Cool


All I can say is:

We were not trying to mislead anyone; we're sorry if we did; we are working with Valve to address this; While we don't know exactly when it will happen yet, the app will move from the Free to Play section to the Strategy section soon.

Eric Hautemont
CEO - Days of Wonder

      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 18:57
CrewcutJim wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 20:22

I'm sorry I didn't explain well. I realize my GI are still on the DOW, but I wasn't expecting the steam version to mess with the DOW version since nothing transfers from DOW to Steam (gold, achievements, rank...). It looks like I can't have a steam version and a DOW version (for tournaments?) without logging into each one everytime.

I just don't see that there are enough Memoir players to support two different places to play...it was hard enough to find opponents at certain time of the day on DOW. It seems to me, the steam version will win out eventually if the griefers don't drive the diehards away.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Memoir '44. It was interesting attaining achievements, playing new maps, and gaining rank, but I'm not sure I want to do it all over again on Steam.

One of the things I enjoyed about Memoir was using a few minutes of free time to take Juno or Sword beach for the 100th time. I found myself often playing "solo" because of the lack of opponents or lack of time to play the longer, more complex scenarios. Who doesn't love a tank battle to kill time.


I might be wrong here, but my understanding is that no matter what account you log on to, you are all in the same lobby for playing battles. Why would one type of account have to 'win out' over the other?
      
CrewcutJim
Junior Member
First Lieutenant

Posts: 5
Registered:
June 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 19:19
If you are in the same lobby that would be a good thing. When I logged in the other day on DOW there weren't all the cadets that there were on steam. If this is true, why can't our achievements, rank etc carry over in some way. It was interesting on steam the other days with lots of cadets, a couple of majors (testers?) and no other ranks.
      
eric
-= Crew =-
Advanced Combat Training

User Pages
Posts: 3190
Registered:
October 2002
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 19:51
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 09:57

... my understanding is that no matter what account you log on to, you are all in the same lobby for playing battles.


That is correct.
      
stevens
Senior Member
Omaha Victory

User Pages
Posts: 2937
Registered:
February 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 20:35
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=23621&start=0

ERIC STATES:
Quote:

And one more thing: we've made the decision to put Pegasus Bridge and Juno Beach free (i.e. they will cost you no Gold Ingots going forward), effective immediately. This way, you can train new Cadets to your heart's content on these 2 scenarios, without having to worry about it taking from your stash of Gold Ingots.


So the game is FREE. Not in all of it's content, but for those who want to play and learn.

[Updated on: Fri, 14 October 2011 20:37]

      
Henry Pelham
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 120
Registered:
December 2010
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 14 October 2011 23:21
JamesJacked wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 11:10


If your going to have micro transactions and something called 'WAR' 'Gold' why the hell can't you win any of it in game? Or place bets on an outcome.



Twisted Evil

JamesJacked, those are all good points and insights you have ... thanks for writing them up.
      
Phread
Senior Member
Stiff Upper Lip

User Pages
Posts: 1772
Registered:
December 2008
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 04:37
DavidMoore wrote on Sat, 15 October 2011 03:14

As an M44 and Steam player, all I can say is I was surprised to find M44 on Steam, even more surprised to find it listed as free, then a bit annoyed to find out that it isn't free after all. I think DoW just made a mistake, or maybe miscommunicated with Valve (the company that operates Steam).

I would agree with the people who say the free program should be labelled as a demo, but I don't agree that this is some kind of sneaky trick. DoW are venturing into a new area, and mistakes like this happen.

Just relax and enjoy. Cool



Well said sir. Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Nod Nod Nod Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 10:16
As usual, DoW fixes things better than any other company I know...

Seeing how much confusion and frustration there was on Steam because of the fact that people thought Memoir '44 Online was completely free, DoW clarified the wording and created two free battles. Smile

Now it actually is free to play (some very basic battles) and those of us who are willing to teach new recruits can do so without using up our Gold. Such a great solution!! Cool

Well done, gents, well done.

[Updated on: Sat, 15 October 2011 10:17]

      
ShadowyMOON
Junior Member
Leutnant

Posts: 4
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 16:08
Hey guys, I'm a new player from Steam.

At first I was a bit mad to find out about how GIs work, and while I still don't really like that system of payment, reading this thread has been a positive surprise, and making two free maps was very nice of DoW, good job guys!

Now while you are settled on Pay to Play with an effective 20-30 or so free test games, my suggestion would be to make it truly F2P with a free map rotation, say 3-5 different scenarios are free each week, the rest keep the normal GI system, and you keep that rotation. Similar to how League of Legends works, of sorts.

Now I don't know if that's viable or makes any sense for you as a business, it's just what I'd prefer as a player. As of right now I may consider getting some 5 euro packs after I buy some other game on steam and have money leftover, but 30 euro is something I'd spend solely on an unlimited multiplayer "full" game, so to say.

Just my 2 cents. Great game by the way, it's loads of fun!
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 16:26
ShadowyMOON wrote on Sat, 15 October 2011 18:08

Now while you are settled on Pay to Play with an effective 20-30 or so free test games, my suggestion would be to make it truly F2P with a free map rotation, say 3-5 different scenarios are free each week, the rest keep the normal GI system, and you keep that rotation. Similar to how League of Legends works, of sorts.


I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the game! It's a fun game and remains fun despite having played thousands of battles.

Another player had the same suggestion of cycling through the free scenarios. While it's possible that DoW will do something like this, I would be kind of surprised if they did. They have plans for continued development and I would guess that they would need people to pay instead of just being able to wait until their favorite battles came up on the rotation.

As it is, you can play the free battles and try out lots of different ones with the 50 free Ingots before having to buy anything...and I expect it will stay that way. Smile But you never know! It sure would be great for the players... Rolling Eyes
      
ShadowyMOON
Junior Member
Leutnant

Posts: 4
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 16:56
I don't want to get into an argument what system is "best" since it's up to DoW and they have every right to pick what works for them in a purely business sense.

The thing that irked me while reading through the thread was how the current system is the "only" one that can maintain continued development. That is simply not true.

Now I know that DoW are a board game company and don't have that much experience with online payment methods and monetization of online games but I could list plenty of online games with much more vast development and running costs than Memoir 44 that are entirely F2P (free-to-play, without resorting to in-game advertisements or anything of the like. (which is what a lot of people seem to be hinting)
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 17:44
ShadowyMOON wrote on Sat, 15 October 2011 18:56

I don't want to get into an argument what system is "best" since it's up to DoW and they have every right to pick what works for them in a purely business sense.

The thing that irked me while reading through the thread was how the current system is the "only" one that can maintain continued development. That is simply not true.

Now I know that DoW are a board game company and don't have that much experience with online payment methods and monetization of online games but I could list plenty of online games with much more vast development and running costs than Memoir 44 that are entirely F2P (free-to-play, without resorting to in-game advertisements or anything of the like. (which is what a lot of people seem to be hinting)


Sure, we don't need to argue, but I certainly don't mind a friendly discussion! Very Happy

I don't know what works best for DoW, but I do know that they've already played around with the payment system and this is what they've hit on. Is it the only payment option? No. Did DoW research what other game companies are doing? Certainly! So apparently this was the best payment system for them.

Having said that, DoW is not the kind of company to stick with a plan that doesn't work. If they discover that another payment plan would work better, or would keep more people playing (but still earn the money they need) then they may very well change their model.

I still doubt DoW will make it completely free to play, or even rotate through all of the scenarios as free, but who knows. Razz
      
ShadowyMOON
Junior Member
Leutnant

Posts: 4
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 19:32
Glad to hear they actively seek to improve everything around the game as well then, after the initial fumble with Steam and categorizing the game, I have a positive impression.

A few good examples of what I mean would be World of Tanks, League of Legends which I mentioned, Dungeons and Dragons Online and of course Team Fortress 2.

Also, a very insightful video from people in the industry about micro-transactions and F2P:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWMBeLrZoyw

[Updated on: Sat, 15 October 2011 19:39]

      
AtlasRedux
Junior Member
First Lieutenant

Posts: 1
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 19:53
Just admit it, you were going for some free publicity.
This is a demo, nothing more and nothing less, not a F2P.
Personally I am happy I stumbled over it, but I do feel its unfair towards the real F2P's and demos.
      
cordsmith
Junior Member
Kouhosei

Posts: 2
Registered:
December 2010
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sat, 15 October 2011 21:10
I would never support such a pay structure as this. I know the Dev's have the philosophy that they put in a lot of time and money, and to support future releases this is the structure we need to have. Its flat out wrong. Go with the Sam Walton philosophy. Sell a few games that you have to buy ingots, or sell a ton of games on steam at $10 or even $5 and see how much cash you get...

Selling 10K copies at 5 bucks is an easy $50,000. You would have to sell nearly 1700 of your $30 ingots packages to equate to this. Much easier to sell access to the game at 5 bucks. Then you add downloadable content at a buck a shot...

I have seen this work IRL so well, that I am baffled over the decision to use this structure.

Its a shame too, because there are no other types of games similar on the market.

Fire your marketing person and do the math. I'm sure the people at Steam have statistics to support how much cash inflow you can make with the proper prices structure.

At this structure I'll have to stick to playing the board game myself!
      
Rakeman
Junior Member
Cadet

Posts: 1
Registered:
December 2008
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sun, 16 October 2011 09:22
I'll gladly support digital adaptations of board games (such as the upcoming Carcassonne game), but not if the agreement is unfair to the consumer.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 April 2013 18:46]

      
player670234
Junior Member

Posts: 1
Registered:
November 2010
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sun, 16 October 2011 12:38
I have to start off by saying I really enjoy the MM44 game and would love to recomend it to all my friends but with the current price model I don't feel as though I can.I really can't you have people on here myself included saying they are prepared to pay the price of a full game release for unlimited play time and you won't do it this is madness.By selling a low cost flash game you have achieved what for many game developers as the holy grail and yet you refuse to sell it to them in this way.

I understand you are a board game developer but you don't even support your own core fans by allowing people who have purchased
your board game to play unlimited.If your costs are so high that you feel this rental model is the only profitable one you really need to look at your costs.

A game like Civ V surely has far higher development costs and yet it shipped at the same sort of price as your most expensive rental but Civ V is ownded by the customer.Also it has to be noted that civ has been on sale for £10 on steam lately.

I feel terrible for being negative about a game that I could love so much but you won't allow me to.I don't think anybody is saying ditch the lower price points but simply add another layer to your pricing.
      
SnùffleKítty Nim
Junior Member
Captain

Posts: 2
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sun, 16 October 2011 21:04
player670234 wrote on Sun, 16 October 2011 06:38

I have to start off by saying I really enjoy the MM44 game and would love to recomend it to all my friends but with the current price model I don't feel as though I can.I really can't you have people on here myself included saying they are prepared to pay the price of a full game release for unlimited play time and you won't do it this is madness.By selling a low cost flash game you have achieved what for many game developers as the holy grail and yet you refuse to sell it to them in this way.

I understand you are a board game developer but you don't even support your own core fans by allowing people who have purchased
your board game to play unlimited.If your costs are so high that you feel this rental model is the only profitable one you really need to look at your costs.

A game like Civ V surely has far higher development costs and yet it shipped at the same sort of price as your most expensive rental but Civ V is ownded by the customer.Also it has to be noted that civ has been on sale for £10 on steam lately.

I feel terrible for being negative about a game that I could love so much but you won't allow me to.I don't think anybody is saying ditch the lower price points but simply add another layer to your pricing.


I'm sorry, but this is exactly how I feel as well. As much as I love this game, I cannot personally justify paying for it at any of the available price-points. 200 GI would last me half a month, at best. 1000 GI would last me less than two months, at roughly 15$ a months (I stopped playing MMORPGs for a reason).

The only package that is relatively tempting is the Major Pack. Buying the Captain Pack with the 30$ voucher would add up to about 7 or 8 months of playtime for me. Alternatively, buying a physical copy of the game could be fun, but given that the 30$ doesn't cover the cost of the base-game (despite the fact that I've found copies of the game for sale online ~35$), I'd have to go down an additional 20$ to cover the cost.

I think that the bottom line here is that your rent-to-play pricing model is scaring potential customers away. That's just how I and everyone else I know who might have purchased this game feels.

- Nim
      
AeneasXII
Junior Member

Posts: 1
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Sun, 16 October 2011 21:29
eric wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 18:26

All I can say is:

We were not trying to mislead anyone; we're sorry if we did; we are working with Valve to address this; While we don't know exactly when it will happen yet, the app will move from the Free to Play section to the Strategy section soon.

Eric Hautemont
CEO - Days of Wonder



Don't do that!
Your game IS f2p from the definition!
No F2p game in the f2p section is REALLY f2p!
They all work with systems similar to yours.
And since the ACCESS to the game is free as well as 2 maps it IS a free to play game!

You would ->utterly<- ruin your sales if you move out of the free2play section! (there are 100s of strategy games but only a handful of games in the f2p section) It would ruin you marketing wise!

What I would want to see is other methods of paying for the game.
I like the game but dislike the fact that you gotta pay PER game VERY much. I am a hardcore gamer and when I play a game I play only that game and I play it excessivly. I would want a possibility to pay ~40¤ or something and have ALL of the game without ever having to pay again. Either that or I probably won't spend any money on this game at all and just stick with the free scenarios! 30¤ for NOT unlimited gametime is unacceptable for me. At least when there is NO possibility ingame to earn gold without buying it.

This game is fun but really needs some other possibilities.
Maybe that you earn 1 gold per won match i.e. or something else that encourages free2play players to spend alot of time in it to gain some gold in order to play some of the better scenarios
Or at least some fixed amount to have ALL of the game. And not just gold coins!

I know there are many people that may not have that much time per day to play alot of games who welcome that system, but that should be an OPTION for those people and shouldn't screw ALL of the people that would actually play the game alot!

I really like this game but I hardly can see me spending any money with that system in place sadly... I would like the game enough to spend 30,40¤ to have everything from it though...! (and yes 1000points issn't nearly enough for a player like me and I won't ever want to spend 60¤ for a game like this!) and even if I would spend 60¤ I still wouldn't be able to play the game forever which is very frustrating tbh!

As it is now I will be playing the 2free scenarios over and over again until I get bored and then I'll have to move to another game since there is no reasonable payment option in place in order for me to go for it!

edit: ps: take spiral knights for example. there every dungeon you go in (the actual game) costs some point and you only have a few ones for free. As soon as these are out you CANNOT play anymore but idle in the lobby or buy gametime (just like here)
And that game is STILL in the f2p section... I highly recommend you getting your game into that section again tbh

[Updated on: Sun, 16 October 2011 21:54]

      
Brucaliffo
Junior Member
Tenente

Posts: 1
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Mon, 17 October 2011 12:01
I started playing yesterday evening.
I really like this game because i love the boardgame as well.
But i think it is too expensive.
I think i will buy some Ingots if prices will lower.
      
Red Is Dead
Junior Member

Posts: 3
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Tue, 18 October 2011 17:31
AeneasXII wrote on Sun, 16 October 2011 21:29


Don't do that!
Your game IS f2p from the definition!
[...]
ps: take spiral knights for example. there every dungeon you go in (the actual game) costs some point and you only have a few ones for free. As soon as these are out you CANNOT play anymore but idle in the lobby or buy gametime (just like here)
And that game is STILL in the f2p section... I highly recommend you getting your game into that section again tbh


You probably chose the worst example for your misinformed rant as you can actually play Spiral Knight and get the full experience without spending a single cent ever, making it probably the best example of a F2P system.

In SK, your "free energy" replenishes through the day (about 22 hours to get a full bar) and it'll last you about one hour and half of gameplay per day. You can also buy more energy using the in game currency or real life currency. I've been playing SK since it's been out on Steam and haven't spent a single euro on it.

Compare this to M44 when once you run out of free ingots (about 20-25 games I believe), you have to pay to play, basically making it not a F2P game by definition. M44 is a subscription based game, like WoW and others, except you pay for your game time in the form of games amount instead of monthly.

Anyway, I'm amazed that you guys actually moved it away from the F2P list. I guess I was wrong about the lack of ethics things etc. I apologize.

[Updated on: Tue, 18 October 2011 17:32]

      
Jeronimon
Senior Member
Brigadier

User Pages
Posts: 935
Registered:
November 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Tue, 18 October 2011 17:36
player827067 wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 17:31


Anyway, I'm amazed that you guys actually moved it away from the F2P list. I guess I was wrong about the lack of ethics things etc. I apologize.

That's DOW for you, they really listen. Now if only they would make me a general.
Very Happy
      
Smarf
Member
Major

Posts: 59
Registered:
February 2006
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Tue, 18 October 2011 21:26
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 12 October 2011 21:53

If the pricing on Steam is similar to the pricing on the DoW website (which includes a credit toward future DoW purchases), buying the big pack of ingots gets you nearly 1,000 games at less than 5 cents per game. For most people, a game averages 20-30 minutes. It works out to something like 400+ hours of play for a net cost of about $30.

So if you decide to go beyond the free introductory period, it's an incredible bargain.


To each their own I guess Porkins. I think it's a great deal, the DoW pack I mean, and I'm not even halfway through my ingots after several months of play. Plus the 30$ credit gives you almost enough to buy the board game, which I'll get when I refill my ingots.

Most games nowadays do actually cost $60. I just finished two, and I've only had them for a week. Just to put things in perspective.
      
piratedwarf
Junior Member
Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 27
Registered:
March 2005
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Wed, 19 October 2011 04:05
player827067 wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 18:31


In SK, your "free energy" replenishes through the day (about 22 hours to get a full bar) and it'll last you about one hour and half of gameplay per day. You can also buy more energy using the in game currency or real life currency. I've been playing SK since it's been out on Steam and haven't spent a single euro on it.


I think you may have just cited one of the reasons why M'44 isn't fully F2P. Such games get a huge serverload from people unwilling to pay even for the little stuff. For some this will work, and for some it won't.

What new players from Steam need to consider that DOW doesn't actually sell a video game. They sell a service, in which they host a board game online and provide a community bolstering with fellow players of which to choose. You say it's expensive. Well, compared to the board game it's not. I have spent more money on the board game and the expansions than on ingots, yet I have played under 100 irl games, and over 300 online games. A few online games cost less than the gas I need to buy in order to get to another player.

What DOW needs to consider - and I'm sure they do - is whether or not these Steam players are right. Is it possible to broaden the player base with such a multitude by either having a fixed price for the base game and another for the expansions, or by just lowering the pack or GI prices, that while it'll make playing cheaper, it will still make more money for DOW?

I have bought over 50 video games on Steam, and more elsewhere. All of them have had a fixed one-time price. Or have they? Actually, when you think you buy a game on Steam, you buy a Steam subscription of the game. If they decide to terminate your subscription or go out of business, bye-bye goes your gaming collection. Well... that's probably not going to happen, but it might.

But is a one-time fixed price always a good thing? In my experience it isn't. I have bought several 50¤ games filled with enthuasiasm, only to be disappointed by the qualities of the game. Equally, I have bought several 50¤ games mostly for multiplayer, and noticed that after a year or so the developer either went out of business or just didn't feel like continuing the multiplayer service. The worst one was an EA game, which admittedly had already come down to 16¤... and after two weeks of playing EA decides to cut the multiplayer service. I had to fight with them for nearly 6 months to get my money back, and even then I only got it after getting in touch with consumer officials. And sure, most of my Steam games have cost less than 5 ¤, but then... 35 of them I have played less than an hour.

And to compare M'44 with a flash game... pfft. Anybody with a little know-how can make a flash game. But nobody designs the game like Richard Borg!
      
JFKoski
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

User Pages
Posts: 602
Registered:
October 2005
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Thu, 20 October 2011 05:11
Zathael wrote on Thu, 13 October 2011 02:32

I checked out the DoW packs vs the Steam packs, and most of them are not the same. Using Steam, you can purchase 125 GI for $5, 400 GI for $15, or you can buy 1000 GI for $30 and get access to Expert mode. The "incredible bargain" 2400 point pack that gives you Expert mode and also gives you credit towards a future DoW purchase for $60 doesn't exist.


I played this online game rather intensely when I first got it. Compulsive was a good word. I'd played the board game 100x so I'd learned most of the rules and strategies already. Because the computer handled the rules, it was fairly easy to learn new stuff that I don't have at home: Snipers, Commissar, Japanese Army, etc.

If after my trial, I'd bought the 1000 GI Captain's Pack, I'd have gone through that in 45 days, and accomplished my objectives of achievement badges and making Lt. Colonel. So a month and a half of intense gaming for $30 - I feel it's been a good deal compared to buying say, Stalingrad and Eastern Front for the board game.

Instead I bought the 2500 GI Major's Pack and have about 350 games left to play + another 333 or so if I use the $30 credit to buy more GIs as some have reportedly done.

The intensity or compulsion is fading, and I'm looking for a new challenge. If I were cashed out of GIs, I'd be checking the game or website regularly for new scenarios or features to decide whether to buy more. I suppose I'd just be playing Juno Beach and Pegasus Bridge after they were dropped to a cost of 0 GIs.

Nygaard wrote on Thu, 13 October 2011 11:19


DoW need a steady revenue to keep developing their games. They do this by selling expansions to their board games, and by charging a fee for using their online services. If you don't want to pay, you don't have to. If the price is too high, well then it's DoW's problem, because they lose customers.



New scenarios (or more scenarios) were my primary concern. Since I've been a member they've added Knightsbridge and Operation Spring, I believe, which aren't great. There's talk of upgrading the editor, so it will trigger online features. Previously I wasn't concerned about that, but now I'd like to see SFTF work properly, so I can play new good scenarios. But I don't know if a working editor would cause me to plop down another $30 if my GIs were near 0.

I am looking forward to Overlord, if that ever gets developed online. It's pretty much impossible to get 8 players at home, but should be feasible online. Considering I was thinking of buying the scenario packs, I'd pay for the online version.

Breakthrough could be another option. It has a complicated rules, takes a lot to set up so an online version should help.

It's too bad they don't ask you what new project you'd prefer when you buy GIs.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 October 2011 05:26]

      
dr-whoopass
Junior Member
Cadet

Posts: 1
Registered:
January 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Thu, 20 October 2011 07:40
I'd like to weigh in with my opinion as well.

I also was a bit bummed by the pay to play model as well. It's essentially a subscription model that adjusts based on your usage I do very much enjoy the board game and I'm an avid video gamer so it seemed a good fit. However, I'm also a deeply frugal and cheap penny pinching bastard.

The problem I have with game subscriptions in general is that if every game I play wants me to subscribe, even if every game is really cheap, they will add up. Quite frankly, because I don't want to support that payment model in gaming, I've never subscribed to a single monthly fee game and I'm not starting here.

Also, I don't like that I have to "charge" up the game with credits because when the day comes that I stop playing, there will be unspent money in my account that I will never use. I know it won't be a lot of money, but I'm a cheap bastard like I said. The biggest issue I have with it is that every game, no matter how much or how little it costs, it's still going to bug me that I'm spending money by simply playing it. I HATE spending money. If I know that every time I play this game that I'm spending money out of an account, it will rob me of the enjoyment of it.

For $30-60 I get a lot of fun and playtime in a box. They are a good deal, fun per dollar wise. I own the M44 board game for the money I've spent. I can sell the game or trade it for a different one if I ever get sick of it. With this online subscription payment model, I never "own" the right to play the online version. I spend $30 and if I like it, I have to spend it again and again and again.

So please, make me watch advertisements between games. Make me buy the game upfront for $30 and charge me for the expansions. Make me prove that I own the physical game and give me unlimited play online for a one time fee. Offer a different pay model. This model robs all the fun out of playing for me and sadly I won't have any part of it.
      
SnùffleKítty Nim
Junior Member
Captain

Posts: 2
Registered:
October 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Thu, 20 October 2011 19:06
piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


What new players from Steam need to consider that DOW doesn't actually sell a video game. They sell a service, in which they host a board game online and provide a community bolstering with fellow players of which to choose.



Fair point. On the other hand, I've purchased games outright that have done stat-tracking and the like, and frankly I don't see a reason why the rest of this business couldn't be handled client-side.

piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


You say it's expensive. Well, compared to the board game it's not. I have played under 100 irl games, and over 300 online games.



Spend ~$40.00, play base game forever. Spend $60.00 every 8 months (approximately), play base game and all expansions for as long as your GI holds out. This really depends on HOW LONG you think you're going to want to play Memoir '44. In the short term, the Online Model is a better bang for your buck. But in the long term, Buying the board game and it's expansions will be less expensive. But as you pointed out, finding opponents is infinitely easier online.

piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


What DOW needs to consider - and I'm sure they do - is whether or not these Steam players are right. Is it possible to broaden the player base with such a multitude by either having a fixed price for the base game and another for the expansions, or by just lowering the pack or GI prices, that while it'll make playing cheaper, it will still make more money for DOW?



Increase player-base, or continue milking your existing customers for all they are worth. That's a tough one.

piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


I have bought over 50 video games on Steam, and more elsewhere. All of them have had a fixed one-time price. Or have they? Actually, when you think you buy a game on Steam, you buy a Steam subscription of the game. If they decide to terminate your subscription or go out of business, bye-bye goes your gaming collection. Well... that's probably not going to happen, but it might.



Short of a world-ending catastrophe, this would never happen.

piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


And to compare M'44 with a flash game... pfft. Anybody with a little know-how can make a flash game. But nobody designs the game like Richard Borg!



The production value of this game seems low compared to other titles. The fact that the board game was designed by whomever is immaterial.

      
Vonkrumm
Junior Member
Second Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 3
Registered:
September 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 21 October 2011 04:36
Kelly's Hero wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 07:26

Nygaard wrote on Thu, 13 October 2011 09:19



I, for one, like the model because it roots out those who don't take it serious enough to pay. "Free" online games are teeming with people (mostly kids it seems) who have nothing better to do than ruining other people's fun.

Anyway, that's my 0.02 DKK,
Magnus


Actually a very good point. I agree.



Me three!

      
piratedwarf
Junior Member
Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 27
Registered:
March 2005
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 21 October 2011 08:24
SnùffleKítty Nim wrote on Thu, 20 October 2011 20:06


piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


You say it's expensive. Well, compared to the board game it's not. I have played under 100 irl games, and over 300 online games.



Spend ~$40.00, play base game forever. Spend $60.00 every 8 months (approximately), play base game and all expansions for as long as your GI holds out. This really depends on HOW LONG you think you're going to want to play Memoir '44. In the short term, the Online Model is a better bang for your buck. But in the long term, Buying the board game and it's expansions will be less expensive. But as you pointed out, finding opponents is infinitely easier online.




Finding opponents is - at least to me - a key to how much I play the game. In six years I have played under a 100 plays of the board game and in 10 months I have played about 300 online games. And still for some of those real life games one party or the other has had to drive 200+ km. For 60 ¤ I get over a 1100 OL games, and at current rate it will take me ~70 years to get so many plays for the board game. So yes, once I'm a 100 years old and play the game with my grandchildren, I can reminisce to them about what a great deal it was to buy the board game. At that age I will probably have forgotten how many packs of replacements cards I have bought by then.

Yet you are right, if you have gaming buddies that share your love for Memoir'44 and live next door, then by all means the board game is the solution. And even if online playing will be cheaper for me for the next 70 years or so, I still prefer the board game and play it every time I get a chance. I'll probably even buy some more expansions, and the only thing I'm sorry about is that they'll see way too little table time and way too much shelf time.

SnùffleKítty Nim wrote on Thu, 20 October 2011 20:06


piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


What DOW needs to consider - and I'm sure they do - is whether or not these Steam players are right. Is it possible to broaden the player base with such a multitude by either having a fixed price for the base game and another for the expansions, or by just lowering the pack or GI prices, that while it'll make playing cheaper, it will still make more money for DOW?



Increase player-base, or continue milking your existing customers for all they are worth. That's a tough one.




I think you are oversimplyfying here. From this thread alone, one can see that many of the new players wish that the game was free, or that it would have a fixed price. Fixed price is OK, but would 60 ¤/$ be a acceptable price for most of the new players? Probably not. Would 30 be? Well... certainly for many more than 60, but how many? And would it make up for those of us who are willing to pay that amount for ingots? Lowering the GG cost would seem natural, but the tricky thing is that so many seem to detest this model by itself, regardless of the cost. If the prices were cut to half, they'd have to double the amount of games played (not just the playerbase) just to make it even, and that's not counting added expense.

The thing is, people who say things like "the production value of this game seems low" are usually not willing to pay that much for the game. People who understand it's a good online version of a well-designed board game are.

Yet I'm not saying the current model or pricing is the right one, but it is a complex issue.

SnùffleKítty Nim wrote on Thu, 20 October 2011 20:06


piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


I have bought over 50 video games on Steam, and more elsewhere. All of them have had a fixed one-time price. Or have they? Actually, when you think you buy a game on Steam, you buy a Steam subscription of the game. If they decide to terminate your subscription or go out of business, bye-bye goes your gaming collection. Well... that's probably not going to happen, but it might.



Short of a world-ending catastrophe, this would never happen.




Many video game developers and other much larger and older companies have gone out of business, and there is nothing immortal about Valve.

The basic point is you don't own a Steam game. You cannot lend it to a friend when you don't need it, you cannot sell it when your done with it. You subscribe to it for as long as the service exists, or until they alter the subscriber agreement so that you don't want to accept it any more.

SnùffleKítty Nim wrote on Thu, 20 October 2011 20:06


piratedwarf wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 22:05


And to compare M'44 with a flash game... pfft. Anybody with a little know-how can make a flash game. But nobody designs the game like Richard Borg!



The production value of this game seems low compared to other titles. The fact that the board game was designed by whomever is immaterial.




Compared to other titles, which would be? This is a online version of a board game, not a video game. There's no point in comparing M'44 OL with Company of Heroes or something like that. If there were online versions of say Battle Cry, Battlelore or Commands & Colors - or perhaps Tide of Iron, then you could compare. I'd say the production value compares quite well to the board game, as it does against most online versions of board games - and especially the VASSAL version of M'44 - which by the way is free.

The point is that being the hit product of the light wargame designer, production values above the current level are immaterial.
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 6851
Registered:
July 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 21 October 2011 15:38
Very well said, piratedwarf! Smile Your points are very well thought out and well articulated.

Something we can all remember is that DoW has studied this issue already and they have access to way more data than we ever will (number of paying players, cost of upkeep, cost of development, etc). They are a company that has always listened to their fans but they won't provide a service at a loss to themselves. They also won't continue in a payment system that is driving away too many players. If DoW has shown one thing, it's that they know when to modify their plans to maintain a successful company!

So players can complain about the pay-to-play model, everyone can wish for a lower cost, we can all hope for more free scenarios, but in the end DoW will decide to keep their payment system or change it all based on if they can meet the bottom line.

I think this discussion has been very interesting, and I know that DoW also reads it with interest, so thank you to everyone who has contributed! It makes for a fascinating read... Very Happy

[Updated on: Fri, 21 October 2011 15:40]

      
Kelly's Hero
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 301
Registered:
April 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 21 October 2011 19:46
dr-whoopass wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 23:40


So please, make me watch advertisements between games.


Please don't make me watch advertisements between games.
      
hdescavernes
Senior Member
Michael Wittmann

User Pages
Posts: 733
Registered:
October 2003
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 21 October 2011 22:03
"This dice roll is brought to you by [insert brand]"

LOL
      
stevens
Senior Member
Omaha Victory

User Pages
Posts: 2937
Registered:
February 2007
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Fri, 21 October 2011 22:09
Quote:

"This dice roll is brought to you by [insert brand]"



LOL while rolling on the floor! Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
Vonkrumm
Junior Member
Second Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 3
Registered:
September 2011
Re:How is this "Free to play"? Thu, 27 October 2011 00:38
hdescavernes wrote on Sat, 22 October 2011 07:03

"This dice roll is brought to you by [insert brand]"

LOL



I hadn't even thought of this. Please DoW, don't ever do this to us.

Thank you to piratedwarf for his answers. They tally pretty much exactly with my thoughts.

The online version is for when you haven't got the kids or friends nearby. The boardgame is more of an event. You need to make a bigger investment and therefore has a bigger impact.

My kids, aged 10 & 12, prefer the online for the speed, but they happily do the setup and discuss tactics in the 3D real world of the board game. They love planning their own scenarios that are not based on reality, just "playing" with the possibilities in those hexes and units. Once the dice start rolling, they don't want to stop to catch the bus to school or other things we have to do! Smile

I think DoW do great online versions of both M44 and Ticket to Ride. They take away the "slowness" (i.e human speed) of the board games while keeping all the things that make these games so great in the first place.

The payment system shocked me a little at first (after the all inclusive payment for TTR), but I just bought the biggest package and I will be happily playing for at least 2 years. Plus I get a $30 credit to use on the new Ticket To Ride board games later this year! Smile
      
Pages (2): [ «  <  1  2 ]     
Previous Topic:Suggestion for an Alternative to the Feature Request Log
Next Topic:Looking for a player
Goto Forum: