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ad79
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SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sat, 05 November 2011 16:16
Simple question I didn't find a clarification for in the Faq(Excellent work, by the way, Jesse and Stevens)

Does the fourth bullet point on the card (Ignore line of sight) applies
1. At all times
or
2. Only when the unit does not move?

The question is really. Does it ignore line of sight when it battles like infantry?

[Updated on: Sat, 05 November 2011 16:16]

      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sat, 05 November 2011 16:30
I imagine them like regular infantry when moving. Late War Mortar squads had the ability to pack their equipment much faster, thus being able to battle with light weapons.

So I'd say that they would need LoS when battling after moving.

I hope this helps. Smile
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sat, 05 November 2011 17:19
From the Winter Wars Rulebook:
Quote:

Battle: When it moves, an ordered Infantry unit with
a Mortar may battle any enemy ground unit three or fewer hexes away, rolling the same number of dice a standard Infantry would.
If it did not move this turn, the Infantry with a Mortar may also fire on a target 4 hexes away, rolling 1 die.
It also ignores the terrain battle protections of its target, in this case.

 Line of Sight: Like a standard Artillery unit, an
Infantry unit with a Mortar does not need line of sight
to its target.


This is a good question. I don't believe that it is absolutely clear on the LOS issue.

I personally read it that the Mortar Unit NEVER needs LOS, but only gets the range of 4 if it does not move. The section about LOS for this unit is separate and seems to be a constant condition rather than a case specific condition for this fighting unit. But I could be wrong.
Shocked

[Updated on: Sat, 05 November 2011 19:12]

      
Sgt Storm
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sat, 05 November 2011 20:05
I think the rule is pretty obvious. It battles like infantry (thus requiring LOS) when moving, otherwise it is using a mortar and does not need LOS.
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sat, 05 November 2011 20:40
Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 05 November 2011 15:05

I think the rule is pretty obvious. It battles like infantry (thus requiring LOS) when moving, otherwise it is using a mortar and does not need LOS.


It may seem obvious, but if you look at the LOS description for each of the 3 late war units (anti-tank, mortar, and machine gun) the MORTAR unit description for LOS states:

Quote:

Line of Sight: Like a standard Artillery unit, an Infantry unit with a Mortar does not need line of sight to its target.


At NO time does it specify that this feature only applies to the unit if it has not moved. The implication then is that it is a constant feature of the unit.

WHEREAS for the other 2 late war units (Anti-tank, Machine Gun)
there is a specific limiting feature described:

Quote:

Line of Sight: An Infantry unit with an Anti-Tank Gun must have line of sight to its target, like a standard
Infantry unit.

Line of Sight: An Infantry unit with an Machine Gun must have line of sight to its target, like a standard
Infantry unit.


[Updated on: Sat, 05 November 2011 20:41]

      
50th
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sat, 05 November 2011 20:43
I would disagree. The rulebook for WW simply states that "Like artillery, an infantry unit with a mortar does not need line of site". It does not state "in this case" The unit loses the ability to fire at a unit four hexes away, and rolls like standard infantry (and that's it!).

This chart might help:
http://cdn.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/272628/_4477.p df

[Updated on: Sat, 05 November 2011 20:44]

      
ad79
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sat, 05 November 2011 23:38
stevens wrote on Sat, 05 November 2011 20:40

Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 05 November 2011 15:05

I think the rule is pretty obvious. It battles like infantry (thus requiring LOS) when moving, otherwise it is using a mortar and does not need LOS.


It may seem obvious, but if you look at the LOS description for each of the 3 late war units (anti-tank, mortar, and machine gun) the MORTAR unit description for LOS states:

Quote:

Line of Sight: Like a standard Artillery unit, an Infantry unit with a Mortar does not need line of sight to its target.


At NO time does it specify that this feature only applies to the unit if it has not moved. The implication then is that it is a constant feature of the unit.

WHEREAS for the other 2 late war units (Anti-tank, Machine Gun)
there is a specific limiting feature described:

Quote:

Line of Sight: An Infantry unit with an Anti-Tank Gun must have line of sight to its target, like a standard
Infantry unit.

Line of Sight: An Infantry unit with an Machine Gun must have line of sight to its target, like a standard
Infantry unit.





After reading the LOS describtions for the three SWA's I am going to believe Mortar units ignore LOS at all times.

Nothing in the rulebook or the card ties the LOS statement to when it doesn't move.

But it should be clarified in the FAQ, since there are different interpretations.

And, stevens, I love it when people quote the actual rules. Razz
      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 11:36
I believe that taking the rules word-by-word is nitpicking. The late-war SWA units were supposed to function like this: battle with their special equipment when deployed, battle like regular infantry when moving. So when the machine gunners can't use them (no hit on star after moving against infantry), the mortar crew shouldn't be able to use them either...
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 11:40
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 10:36

I believe that taking the rules word-by-word is nitpicking. The late-war SWA units were supposed to function like this: battle with their special equipment when deployed, battle like regular infantry when moving. So when the machine gunners can't use them (no hit on star after moving against infantry), the mortar crew shouldn't be able to use them either...


But isn't a mortar a fundamentally different weapon to LOS guns? They fire a shell not a bullet and like other artillery varients I don't think they would need LOS.
      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 13:23
When being used, sure they don't need LOS. But when they are packed up and carried by the crew they can't be used, thus the unit needs LOS...
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 13:46
This is obviously a question that, in the end, will be decided by DOW and appear in any update to the FAQ.

[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2011 13:46]

      
50th
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 14:18
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 06:23

When being used, sure they don't need LOS. But when they are packed up and carried by the crew they can't be used, thus the unit needs LOS...


They never need LOS. Read the page, page 9. The ability to fire without LOS is not tied to being stationary! The mortar fires like artillery, it lobs its shell in an arc. It does not fire straight at the target ever!

      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 18:17
50th:

stevens wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 14:46

This is obviously a question that, in the end, will be decided by DOW and appear in any update to the FAQ.


I'm still basing my theory on pure logic rather than only on the rulebook.

[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2011 18:21]

      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 19:27
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 12:17

50th:

stevens wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 14:46

This is obviously a question that, in the end, will be decided by DOW and appear in any update to the FAQ.


I'm still basing my theory on pure logic rather than only on the rulebook.


Yes, it does make sense to at least take the time to think about in a logical realistic way. So you are to be commended for your thoughtfulness in this area. However, this is in a way an abstract game not a pure simulation and so things that seem logical in real practice, don't always manifest themselves as directly in the application of the rules. Being that I am not necessarily a purest for technical detail I am more concerned about the consistency of a rules application than whether the effect truly mimics actual combat conditions.

To me the real distinction (or nitpicking as you said) comes in the way that DOW defined the LOS category:
Quote:

Line of Sight: Like a standard Artillery unit, an Infantry unit with a Mortar does not need line of sight to its target.


DOW emphasized the fact in the other units (Anti-Tank, Machine Gun) that they were like a standard infantry unit and had to have LOS, but specifically defined LOS for a MORTAR UNIT as Like a standard Artillery Unit. They made the disctintion and so I understand the detriment of trying to move a weapon and then fire it. But in this case, 50th made the best contribution when he asked us to consider how the weapon itself was fired. The Anti-tank gun and Machine gun are fired in a straight line, but a mortar has an arc pattern and is lobbed into the target. And so it fires in the same way as an Artillery.

Now I know you will say to yourself, yes, but when the guys are moving their mortar, if they had to combat, they would use their carbines and not the mortar until they had a place to stop and set up. I would not argue with that as it is obviously more realistic. The fact is DOW didn't say that they fire with their carbines when they move and so we are left with what they did say as a basis for our deciding:

Like a standard Artillery unit, an Infantry unit with a Mortar does not need line of sight to its target.

And so in actuality, whether you are using the early war mortar, which either moves or battles, but not both {EXCEPTION/ BEL card} or whether you are using the late war rule; in either case, when the unit fires (battles) it does not need LOS because it is battling with it's Mortar. This consistency is what I appreciate most.

[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2011 19:39]

      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 19:48
You win! Laughing

But still

stevens wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 14:46

This is obviously a question that, in the end, will be decided by DOW and appear in any update to the FAQ.
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 20:04
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 13:48

You win! Laughing

But still

stevens wrote on Sun, 06 November 2011 14:46

This is obviously a question that, in the end, will be decided by DOW and appear in any update to the FAQ.



Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Laughing

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_swa_3.jpg
Line#3
Ignore LOS and Terrain Protections (this is a constant).

[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2011 20:05]

      
Kelly's Hero
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 22:54
I still hope for an official ruling. Im not totally convinced by either argument, though I can accept either if it turns out to be correct. It appears to me that the intent was to make swa units behave like normal infantry if they move and battle.
      
Lujo
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Sun, 06 November 2011 23:25
That's how I understood it too, we play no SWAS when moving, but some official word would be certainly welcome here...
      
50th
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Mon, 07 November 2011 17:07
I believe that reading the rulebook line by line is not nitpicking. It is interpreting the rules as written. If you want to make your own house rule because you don't agree with the official rules, that is your option. I've done that myself on several occasions. But house rules are not the same as the official rules, and as a player of house rules, I will be the first to point that out. One of my personal house rules is that Italian armor and Japanese armor only has two figures. That is because they had much thinner armor than their German and Allied counterparts. That is one of my house rules that I sometimes use. You are free to make a house rule that mortars fire like infantry when they move.

      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Mon, 07 November 2011 17:15
I personally never use house rules, as I don't quite have time to make my own and I don't like using the others'.

I didn't mean this interpretation of the official rules to be a house rule, so let's just wait for the official clarification, as I still believe that my theory makes more sense, if I have in view all SWA units.

[Updated on: Mon, 07 November 2011 17:15]

      
Kelly's Hero
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Mon, 07 November 2011 20:56
50th wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 09:07

You are free to make a house rule that mortars fire like infantry when they move.




You can't just say that interpretation is a house rule. Actually, that is what the official card says:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/brdavis3/Untitledpicture.png

The problem here is that the lines "battles like infantry" and "ignores line of sight" appear to contradict each other.

One argument puts more emphasis on battles like infantry, the other puts more emphasis on ignores line of sight. So which statement overrules the other? I don't believe it is clear.

From the original post:

ad79 wrote:


Does it ignore line of sight when it battles like infantry?



This is the question not specifically answered.



      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Mon, 07 November 2011 21:12
That's what I was talking about! Smile
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Mon, 07 November 2011 22:01
Quote:

Does it ignore line of sight when it battles like infantry?


NO, because it doesn't ever battle like an infantry.

It Battles like artillery.
Quote:

Line of Sight: Like a standard Artillery unit, an Infantry unit with a Mortar does not need line of sight to its target.

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

[Updated on: Mon, 07 November 2011 22:02]

      
Kelly's Hero
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Mon, 07 November 2011 22:31
stevens wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 14:01

because it doesn't ever battle like an infantry.




Did you read the card?

when it moves, battles like infantry
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 00:23
Kelly's Hero wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 16:31

stevens wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 14:01

because it doesn't ever battle like an infantry.




Did you read the card?

when it moves, battles like infantry


Yep, SWA card #6
But battles like infantry simply means,
battles at range 3-2-1

and if you look at the card this diagram of range is right next to the explanation.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/brdavis3/Untitledpicture.png

But if you look at the bottom of SWA card #6 it states:
Quote:

Ignore line of sight


So you are saying is that you agree that the late war Mortar always ignores LOS.
This is what I have been saying All along. Increased range is conditional on whether or not the unit moves or not, but LOS is unconditional as it is a constant feature of this special unit.

[Updated on: Tue, 08 November 2011 00:30]

      
50th
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 00:49
stevens wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 17:23

Kelly's Hero wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 16:31

stevens wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 14:01

because it doesn't ever battle like an infantry.




Did you read the card?

when it moves, battles like infantry


Yep, SWA card #6
But battles like infantry simply means,
battles at range 3-2-1

and if you look at the card this diagram of range is right next to the explanation.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/brdavis3/Untitledpicture.png

But if you look at the bottom of SWA card #6 it states:
Quote:

Ignore line of sight


So you are saying is that you agree that the late war Mortar always ignores LOS.
This is what I have been saying All along. Increased range is conditional on whether or not the unit moves or not, but LOS is unconditional as it is a constant feature of this special unit.



Once again, Stevens is right! Thank you. Sorry if I was sounding a little judgmental, I had a lot to do today.

      
Kelly's Hero
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 01:03
So... if the unit moves, then it loses the extra range characteristic of a mortar, loses the ability to punch through terrain protection characteristic of a mortar, but retains the ability to ignore line of sight characteristic of a mortar.

"well, are they using the mortar or aren't they?"


stevens wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 16:23

Increased range is conditional on whether or not the unit moves or not, but LOS is unconditional as it is a constant feature of this special unit.




I'd just like to know whether this is what was originally intended. I think those who believe the other point of view is correct have a valid argument. Still looking forward to an official ruling.



      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 01:11
Kelly's Hero wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 19:03

So... if the unit moves, then it loses the extra range characteristic of a mortar, loses the ability to punch through terrain protection characteristic of a mortar, but retains the ability to ignore line of sight characteristic of a mortar.

"well, are they using the mortar or aren't they?"


stevens wrote on Mon, 07 November 2011 16:23

Increased range is conditional on whether or not the unit moves or not, but LOS is unconditional as it is a constant feature of this special unit.




I'd just like to know whether this is what was originally intended. I think those who believe the other point of view is correct have a valid argument. Still looking forward to an official ruling.


Yes, I am certain DOW will resolve this, and until then, I will play it as once a Mortar always Mortar and others will switch to their carbines when they move.
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 01:29
I agree that the card seems to make the point that they don't need LOS at any stage. But I think that this should be an ability when the unit dose not move (motars are set up) and I think when the unit moves it is treated as a normal inf unit (as their motars are packed up and have to use their rifles)

Although as we dont know how long a turn is, they might have time to set back up after moving and firing but due to moving they have had less time to properly target their enemy hence the reduction in range and having to deal with terrian protection.

It really depends how you look at it, and not everyone see's things the same way
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 19:02
stevens wrote on Sat, 05 November 2011 15:40

Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 05 November 2011 15:05

I think the rule is pretty obvious. It battles like infantry (thus requiring LOS) when moving, otherwise it is using a mortar and does not need LOS.


It may seem obvious, but if you look at the LOS description for each of the 3 late war units (anti-tank, mortar, and machine gun) the MORTAR unit description for LOS states:

Quote:

Line of Sight: Like a standard Artillery unit, an Infantry unit with a Mortar does not need line of sight to its target.


At NO time does it specify that this feature only applies to the unit if it has not moved. The implication then is that it is a constant feature of the unit.

WHEREAS for the other 2 late war units (Anti-tank, Machine Gun)
there is a specific limiting feature described:

Quote:

Line of Sight: An Infantry unit with an Anti-Tank Gun must have line of sight to its target, like a standard
Infantry unit.

Line of Sight: An Infantry unit with an Machine Gun must have line of sight to its target, like a standard
Infantry unit.





Sorry, you are right about how the rule reads and it is not so obvious.

I read the rules as written and then decided it made no sense and so essentially I use a house-rule that when the mortar unit is moving, they have the mortar packed up and are firing with small arms. That is what is obvious to me. I will play it this way in FTF games regardless of what DOW decides.
      
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 21:06
Isn't the Battle line the line that determines the number of dice by range and the Line of Sight line that determines whether a unit can fire? If so, saying that you battle like infantry on the Battle line has no relevance on line of sight and vice versa.

Dale
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 21:10
dhurtt wrote on Tue, 08 November 2011 15:06

Isn't the Battle line the line that determines the number of dice by range and the Line of Sight line that determines whether a unit can fire? If so, saying that you battle like infantry on the Battle line has no relevance on line of sight and vice versa.

Dale


Thats the way I read it. Rolling Eyes
      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 21:19
dhurtt wrote on Tue, 08 November 2011 22:06

Isn't the Battle line the line that determines the number of dice by range and the Line of Sight line that determines whether a unit can fire? If so, saying that you battle like infantry on the Battle line has no relevance on line of sight and vice versa.

Dale


But when it says: "for all purposes"?
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 08 November 2011 21:52
nemesszili wrote on Tue, 08 November 2011 15:19

dhurtt wrote on Tue, 08 November 2011 22:06

Isn't the Battle line the line that determines the number of dice by range and the Line of Sight line that determines whether a unit can fire? If so, saying that you battle like infantry on the Battle line has no relevance on line of sight and vice versa.

Dale


But when it says: "for all purposes"?

Maybe your reading ALL a little too inclusively.

All Purposes:
ORDER with an order that orders an infantry
MOVE one hex and battle / 2 hexes no battle like infantry
BATTLE with infantry range 3-2-1
HIT on an Infantry Symbol on the dice

However,
an Infantry can take Ground after a close assault, but an Infantry with a Mortar can not.
An Infantry with a Mortar can battle at all times without LOS, but a regular Infantry can not.

So not actually ALL the same.....

[Updated on: Tue, 08 November 2011 22:00]

      
tinsoldier
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 10:46
stevens wrote on Tue, 08 November 2011 21:52


an Infantry can take Ground after a close assault, but an Infantry with a Mortar can not.




Are you sure an Infantry with Mortar cannot take ground ?
      
clexton27
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 13:22
tinsoldier wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 04:46

stevens wrote on Tue, 08 November 2011 21:52


an Infantry can take Ground after a close assault, but an Infantry with a Mortar can not.




Are you sure an Infantry with Mortar cannot take ground ?


http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_swa_1.jpg

Bullet point #3

Unit with SWA may not take ground
      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 14:50
"All Purposes:
ORDER with an order that orders an infantry
MOVE one hex and battle / 2 hexes no battle like infantry
BATTLE with infantry range 3-2-1
HIT on an Infantry Symbol on the dice"

I understand all for all and not all, except this...

How comes that ONLY LOS is left out or the list? Rolling Eyes
Just curious...

[Updated on: Wed, 09 November 2011 14:51]

      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 15:25
By Antoine from the French forum (translated by Google; Antoine works at DoW, so...):

"- Or the unit moves, in which case it can still fight, but as normal infantry (the men use their arms but cannot move and use the mortar at the same time). The rules of normal infantry combat apply: 3 hex range, possible protection of the ground and line of sight required."

French discussion:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=23816&start=0

Veritas vincit! Very Happy

[Updated on: Wed, 09 November 2011 15:26]

      
hdescavernes
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 15:33
Speak french ?

Antoine écrit le Wed, 09 November 2011 15:17

De deux choses l'une :
- ou l'unité utilise son mortier et donc ne se déplace pas (les hommes installent le mortier, règlent le tir, etc.). Dans ce cas elle peut tirer un hex plus loin, ignore les protections du terrain et n'a pas besoin de ligne de mire.
- ou l'unité se déplace, et dans ce cas elle peut toujours combattre, mais comme de l'infanterie normale (les hommes utilisent leurs armes mais ils ne peuvent pas bouger et utiliser le mortier en même temps). Les règles de combat d'infanterie normale s'appliquent alors : 3 hex de portée, protection éventuelle du terrain et ligne de mire nécessaire.

EDIT - Attention : je parle ici de la règle de Winter Wars qui concerne le mortier à partir de 1942. Le mortier standard est encore plus restrictif puisqu'il ne permet pas de se déplacer et combattre. De plus il ne permet pas non plus de tirer un hex plus loin.


Translation : Moving => need for line of sight (I, like you all, would have accepted otherwise)

EDIT : oops sorry Nemesszili didn't see your reply Razz

[Updated on: Wed, 09 November 2011 15:35]

      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 15:36
It's better to post the same thing twice than to not post it at all, so don't worry. Very Happy
      
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