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Kelly's Hero
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 16:12
nemesszili wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 07:25

By Antoine from the French forum (translated by Google; Antoine works at DoW, so...):

"- Or the unit moves, in which case it can still fight, but as normal infantry (the men use their arms but cannot move and use the mortar at the same time). The rules of normal infantry combat apply: 3 hex range, possible protection of the ground and line of sight required."

French discussion:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=23816&start=0

Veritas vincit! Very Happy



Good find nemesszili.

Though I agree that some of the wording seems to indicate that los is never required, i believe that was not was intended. This post from Antoine (I don't read French) seems to concur.
      
Antoine
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 16:27
ad79 écrit le Sat, 05 November 2011 16:16

Simple question I didn't find a clarification for in the Faq(Excellent work, by the way, Jesse and Stevens)

Does the fourth bullet point on the card (Ignore line of sight) applies
1. At all times
or
2. Only when the unit does not move?

Answer is 2. Only when the unit does not move.

When you order your mortar unit to battle, it can
- either stay where it is and use the mortar (as I said on the French forum, imagine that your men are deploying the mortar on the battlefield). In this case, range increases to 4 hexes (3,2,1,1) and the unit ignores LoS and battle terrain restrictions.
- or move 1 hex and battle like an infantry unit - ie exaclty like an infantry unit (your men do not use their mortar, they use their rifles). In this case, LoS is required (battle restrictions still apply and range does not increase).

Sorry if the card was not clear enough.
      
Kelly's Hero
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 17:17
Antoine wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 08:27

(your men do not use their mortar, they use their rifles).


Laughing
      
nemesszili
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 17:40
What a surprise...
      
stevens
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 19:18
Quote:

What a surprise...


Laughing Laughing Laughing

see below:

[Updated on: Wed, 09 November 2011 19:34]

      
stevens
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 19:32
Antoine wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 10:27

ad79 écrit le Sat, 05 November 2011 16:16

Simple question I didn't find a clarification for in the Faq(Excellent work, by the way, Jesse and Stevens)

Does the fourth bullet point on the card (Ignore line of sight) applies
1. At all times
or
2. Only when the unit does not move?

Answer is 2. Only when the unit does not move.

When you order your mortar unit to battle, it can
- either stay where it is and use the mortar (as I said on the French forum, imagine that your men are deploying the mortar on the battlefield). In this case, range increases to 4 hexes (3,2,1,1) and the unit ignores LoS and battle terrain restrictions.
- or move 1 hex and battle like an infantry unit - ie exaclty like an infantry unit (your men do not use their mortar, they use their rifles). In this case, LoS is required (battle restrictions still apply and range does not increase).

Sorry if the card was not clear enough.


Quote:

This is a good question. I don't believe that it is absolutely clear on the LOS issue.

I personally read it that the Mortar Unit NEVER needs LOS, but only gets the range of 4 if it does not move. The section about LOS for this unit is separate and seems to be a constant condition rather than a case specific condition for this fighting unit. But I could be wrong.

Now I know you will say to yourself, yes, but when the guys are moving their mortar, if they had to combat, they would use their carbines and not the mortar until they had a place to stop and set up. I would not argue with that as it is obviously more realistic. The fact is DOW didn't say that they fire with their carbines when they move and so we are left with what they did say as a basis for our deciding.





I stand corrected. Embarassed

Glad we got that out of the way . Laughing

It takes a village to answer a question. Definitely a question for the FAQ.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 November 2011 21:30]

      
ad79
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 20:52
Antoine wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 16:27

ad79 écrit le Sat, 05 November 2011 16:16

Simple question I didn't find a clarification for in the Faq(Excellent work, by the way, Jesse and Stevens)

Does the fourth bullet point on the card (Ignore line of sight) applies
1. At all times
or
2. Only when the unit does not move?

Answer is 2. Only when the unit does not move.

When you order your mortar unit to battle, it can
- either stay where it is and use the mortar (as I said on the French forum, imagine that your men are deploying the mortar on the battlefield). In this case, range increases to 4 hexes (3,2,1,1) and the unit ignores LoS and battle terrain restrictions.
- or move 1 hex and battle like an infantry unit - ie exaclty like an infantry unit (your men do not use their mortar, they use their rifles). In this case, LoS is required (battle restrictions still apply and range does not increase).

Sorry if the card was not clear enough.


Thanks for the answer. Good to see a discussion that stays serious and doesn't end up in namecalling. This community is a good one.

      
50th
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 22:43
I still disagree! If you look at the card, the LOS statement is a separate item. It does not appear to be a part of the statement about what happens when you move. It has a dot next to it denoting a separate statement. Also the WW rulebook stating that late war mortars act like artillery is a separate statement. So until Mr Borg tells us, I disagree.

      
Kelly's Hero
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Wed, 09 November 2011 22:55
50th wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 14:43

I still disagree! If you look at the card, the LOS statement is a separate item. It does not appear to be a part of the statement about what happens when you move. It has a dot next to it denoting a separate statement. Also the WW rulebook stating that late war mortars act like artillery is a separate statement. So until Mr Borg tells us, I disagree.




I can see your point based on how the card is organized. But there have been other cards that were interpreted incorrectly in the past, or actually read incorrectly (ie, bridges blocking los and terrain movement restrictions applying to BEL are actual printed errors I am sure you are aware of.) DoW has the right to officially interpret and/or correct misprints in the rules. The card may have been misleading, but a ruling has been given. Antoine even said, "Sorry if the card was not clear enough"

It appears that late war SWA units are to be used exactly like regular infantry units when they move and battle. It works that way for anti-tank guns, and for machine guns - logically, why would it not work that way with mortars?

50th wrote

If you want to make your own house rule because you don't agree with the official rules, that is your option.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 November 2011 23:00]

      
stevens
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Thu, 10 November 2011 03:00
50th wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 16:43

I still disagree! If you look at the card, the LOS statement is a separate item. It does not appear to be a part of the statement about what happens when you move. It has a dot next to it denoting a separate statement. Also the WW rulebook stating that late war mortars act like artillery is a separate statement. So until Mr Borg tells us, I disagree.




Antoine is the rules man at DOW. If he says that LOS is necessary for Mortars that move before battle, then that is the way it is. He was kind to offer the concession that he was "Sorry if the card was not clear enough".

So enough said.
      
RBorg
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 04:25
When an infantry SWA mortar unit moves one hex, it must battle like infantry and will need line of sight.

Richard Borg
      
Phread
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 04:29
RBorg wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 16:25

When an infantry SWA mortar unit moves one hex, it must battle like infantry and will need line of sight.

Richard Borg


There we are - the definitive ruling.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 04:30
RBorg wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 07:25

When an infantry SWA mortar unit moves one hex, it must battle like infantry and will need line of sight.

Richard Borg


Thanks for jumping in on this, Richard! Looks like we have our answer from the source himself... Smile

I'll make sure this question and answer is included in the next update of the FAQ Supplement. Cool
      
50th
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 05:01
Ok, I stand corrected! We have the Official ruling!

(Yes, I'll accept this answer)!

Embarassed
      
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 05:26
50th wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 08:01

Ok, I stand corrected! We have the Official ruling!

(Yes, I'll accept this answer)!

Embarassed


I would point out that Antoine is also an official answer... Cool Just because it was on the French Forum doesn't make it any less official. Razz Laughing
      
Phread
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 05:31
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 17:26

50th wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 08:01

Ok, I stand corrected! We have the Official ruling!

(Yes, I'll accept this answer)!

Embarassed


I would point out that Antoine is also an official answer... Cool Just because it was on the French Forum doesn't make it any less official. Razz Laughing


Except that some of us don't read the French forums.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 05:48
Phread wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 08:31

rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 17:26

50th wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 08:01

Ok, I stand corrected! We have the Official ruling!

(Yes, I'll accept this answer)!

Embarassed


I would point out that Antoine is also an official answer... Cool Just because it was on the French Forum doesn't make it any less official. Razz Laughing


Except that some of us don't read the French forums.


True, even though this question had apparently been answered already on the French Forum we did have Antoine's answer before Richard jumped in...

Anyone from DoW who gives an answer to one of our questions is giving us an Official Answer. Cool
      
hdescavernes
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 07:24
Antoine écrit le Wed, 09 November 2011 16:27

ad79 écrit le Sat, 05 November 2011 16:16

Simple question I didn't find a clarification for in the Faq(Excellent work, by the way, Jesse and Stevens)

Does the fourth bullet point on the card (Ignore line of sight) applies
1. At all times
or
2. Only when the unit does not move?

Answer is 2. Only when the unit does not move.

When you order your mortar unit to battle, it can
- either stay where it is and use the mortar (as I said on the French forum, imagine that your men are deploying the mortar on the battlefield). In this case, range increases to 4 hexes (3,2,1,1) and the unit ignores LoS and battle terrain restrictions.
- or move 1 hex and battle like an infantry unit - ie exaclty like an infantry unit (your men do not use their mortar, they use their rifles). In this case, LoS is required (battle restrictions still apply and range does not increase).

Sorry if the card was not clear enough.



Is that french then?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 08:22
No, but the answer below that nemesszili found on the French Forum was in French...and counted as an official answer long before Antoine posted on this forum...and way before Richard Borg jumped in. We've actually had an answer to this question for a while!

nemesszili wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 18:25

By Antoine from the French forum (translated by Google; Antoine works at DoW, so...):

"- Or the unit moves, in which case it can still fight, but as normal infantry (the men use their arms but cannot move and use the mortar at the same time). The rules of normal infantry combat apply: 3 hex range, possible protection of the ground and line of sight required."

French discussion:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=23816&start=0

Veritas vincit! Very Happy


      
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 08:24
In fact...you even found it in French as well!! Confused Razz

Here's what you said before:

hdescavernes wrote on Wed, 09 November 2011 18:33

Speak french ?

Antoine écrit le Wed, 09 November 2011 15:17

De deux choses l'une :
- ou l'unité utilise son mortier et donc ne se déplace pas (les hommes installent le mortier, règlent le tir, etc.). Dans ce cas elle peut tirer un hex plus loin, ignore les protections du terrain et n'a pas besoin de ligne de mire.
- ou l'unité se déplace, et dans ce cas elle peut toujours combattre, mais comme de l'infanterie normale (les hommes utilisent leurs armes mais ils ne peuvent pas bouger et utiliser le mortier en même temps). Les règles de combat d'infanterie normale s'appliquent alors : 3 hex de portée, protection éventuelle du terrain et ligne de mire nécessaire.

EDIT - Attention : je parle ici de la règle de Winter Wars qui concerne le mortier à partir de 1942. Le mortier standard est encore plus restrictif puisqu'il ne permet pas de se déplacer et combattre. De plus il ne permet pas non plus de tirer un hex plus loin.


Translation : Moving => need for line of sight (I, like you all, would have accepted otherwise)

EDIT : oops sorry Nemesszili didn't see your reply Razz



      
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 13:51
I am so appreciative of the FORUM for debating these issues in a kind manner and even moreso for the DOW staff and Richard Borg piping in to provide guidance when necessary. I doubt there are many other games out there with this level of personal support.

Very Happy
      
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Re:SWA 6: Late war Mortar Tue, 15 November 2011 15:08
stevens wrote on Tue, 15 November 2011 16:51

I am so appreciative of the FORUM for debating these issues in a kind manner and even moreso for the DOW staff and Richard Borg piping in to provide guidance when necessary. I doubt there are many other games out there with this level of personal support.

Very Happy


I have to agree with Stevens here...this community is great!! For this many people to all weigh in on a question, and for everyone to be respectful and polite the whole time, is amazing! Nice work everyone. Cool
      
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