Five Tribes Five Tribes

Forums

Search
Forums » Memoir '44 - English » Sniper and Jungle
Show: Today's Posts 
  
AuthorTopic
sdnative
Senior Member
Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 446
Registered:
February 2009
Sniper and Jungle Wed, 25 April 2012 04:47
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 10:22

tinsoldier wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 20:32

And the Japanese Engineers ?
Do they get it, plus the ability to close combat after a two-hex move ?

Edit: official answer on the French forum:

Yamato Damashi rule, Seishin Kyoiku rules or Banzai War Cry rule can be used by a Japanese Engineer unit.


The answer to this question was also answered in a thread over on the Memoir '44 Online forums where a question about it was asked a while ago. Antoine has taken care of two big questions today! Cool


Still another BIG question Ras, can the Japanese Sniper move 2 hexes into a jungle hex and still fire???

Moderator: Thread was starting to be a little messy, I split it. Original Thread: Japanese Sniper

[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 10:10] by Moderator

      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 7083
Registered:
July 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 05:02
sdnative wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 06:47

Still another BIG question Ras, can the Japanese Sniper move 2 hexes into a jungle hex and still fire???



Tank Commander actually got an answer to this question a while back and posted it on the FAQ thread for us. Here's the answer from DoW:

Quote:

I just an answer from DOW for this question.

My question as it was stated in my e-mail:


If a Sniper moves 2 hexes into a jungle hex, does its special terrian combat ability override the jungle battle restriction requiring a unit only being able to move 1 hex and battle?

and the official answer from DOW:

Dear John,

Thank you for your request.

Regarding Snipers and jungles:

A sniper moves like a Special Forces infantry unit, 1 or 2 hexes and battle.

Jungle Terrain rules do not allow a Special Forces infantry unit to move 2 hexes into the Jungle hex and still battle.

Therefore a sniper cannot move 2 hexes into a Jungle hex and battle.

Best Regards,

Franck Lefebvre
Customer Service
Days of Wonder



So there you have it! Cool

[Updated on: Wed, 25 April 2012 05:03]

      
stevens
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

User Pages
Posts: 3020
Registered:
February 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 05:04
Wow Ras you beat me by 1 minute. Just as I was going to paste the same answer, you already had it.
I guess I need to be quicker on the draw.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 7083
Registered:
July 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 05:09
stevens wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 07:04

Wow Ras you beat me by 1 minute. Just as I was going to paste the same answer, you already had it.
I guess I need to be quicker on the draw.

Laughing Laughing Laughing


Sounds like I was lucky with my timing...I'll have to save that luck and keep playing Memoir '44 Online! Maybe I'll be the lucky player who gets that 30,000,000th game!! Very Happy
      
sdnative
Senior Member
Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 446
Registered:
February 2009
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 05:30
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 20:02

sdnative wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 06:47

Still another BIG question Ras, can the Japanese Sniper move 2 hexes into a jungle hex and still fire???



Tank Commander actually got an answer to this question a while back and posted it on the FAQ thread for us. Here's the answer from DoW:

Quote:

I just an answer from DOW for this question.

My question as it was stated in my e-mail:


If a Sniper moves 2 hexes into a jungle hex, does its special terrian combat ability override the jungle battle restriction requiring a unit only being able to move 1 hex and battle?

and the official answer from DOW:






Dear John,

Thank you for your request.

Regarding Snipers and jungles:

A sniper moves like a Special Forces infantry unit, 1 or 2 hexes and battle.

Jungle Terrain rules do not allow a Special Forces infantry unit to move 2 hexes into the Jungle hex and still battle.

Therefore a sniper cannot move 2 hexes into a Jungle hex and battle.

Best Regards,

Franck Lefebvre
Customer Service
Days of Wonder



So there you have it! Cool


Cool Thanks
Very Happy
      
Kelly's Hero
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 303
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 20:06
Quote:

I just an answer from DOW for this question.

My question as it was stated in my e-mail:


If a Sniper moves 2 hexes into a jungle hex, does its special terrian combat ability override the jungle battle restriction requiring a unit only being able to move 1 hex and battle?

and the official answer from DOW:






Dear John,

Thank you for your request.

Regarding Snipers and jungles:

A sniper moves like a Special Forces infantry unit, 1 or 2 hexes and battle.

Jungle Terrain rules do not allow a Special Forces infantry unit to move 2 hexes into the Jungle hex and still battle.

Therefore a sniper cannot move 2 hexes into a Jungle hex and battle.


Best Regards,

Franck Lefebvre
Customer Service
Days of Wonder



This explanation doesn't make much sense to me - a sniper does not move and battle strictly like a special forces unit.

"Jungle Terrain rules do not allow a Special Forces infantry unit to move 2 hexes into the Jungle hex and still battle."

Well, city hexes don't allow a special forces unit to do that either, but a sniper certainly can.

Is there a better explanation as to why jungles don't allow snipers to battle?

It appears that the jungle rule "An Infantry or Armor unit that moves onto a Jungle hex from an adjacent hex may still battle" (PT pg 5) overrides the sniper rule, "May battle when he moves onto terrain type (woods, towns, etc.) where standard infantry could not battle" (EF pg 5)

I can accept the ruling, but the explanation 'special forces can't do it, so snipers cant do it either' makes no sense to me.

      
ad79
Senior Member
Major Howard

User Pages
Posts: 786
Registered:
September 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 20:30
I have to agree with Kelly's Hero here.

This ruling doesn't make sense to me. It punishes the sniper.

All the other restrictive terrain has "Unit moving in cannot battle", but the Sniper ignores this.

The Jungle terrain has "Unit moving in may battle if unit starts its move in adjacent hex." which is less restrictive to regular units than the other terrains, but to the sniper it becomes more restrictive than the other terrains since snipers can't ignore it.

I don't see why the sniper ignores the first, but can't ignore the jungle terrains battle restriction.

The sniper is a fantastic unit for harrassing the enemy, with it's ability to move from protective terrain to another protective terrain and still battle on entry. If the Jungle terrain restriction stays it turns the sniper into a low firepower stationary unit in Pacific Theater scenarios.

I hope DOW changes this ruling. Let's keep the sniper a pain in the ass to play against, even if the scenario involves jungles.

Let snipers move 2 hexes into jungle and battle!
      
JFKoski
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

User Pages
Posts: 603
Registered:
October 2005
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 21:11
We discussed this plenty already this year.
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=24457&start=0

Let's try to keep the same thread going, instead of starting a new one every month.
      
Kelly's Hero
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 303
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 22:03
ad79 wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 12:30

I have to agree with Kelly's Hero here.

This ruling doesn't make sense to me. It punishes the sniper.

All the other restrictive terrain has "Unit moving in cannot battle", but the Sniper ignores this.

The Jungle terrain has "Unit moving in may battle if unit starts its move in adjacent hex." which is less restrictive to regular units than the other terrains, but to the sniper it becomes more restrictive than the other terrains since snipers can't ignore it.

I don't see why the sniper ignores the first, but can't ignore the jungle terrains battle restriction.

The sniper is a fantastic unit for harrassing the enemy, with it's ability to move from protective terrain to another protective terrain and still battle on entry. If the Jungle terrain restriction stays it turns the sniper into a low firepower stationary unit in Pacific Theater scenarios.

I hope DOW changes this ruling. Let's keep the sniper a pain in the ass to play against, even if the scenario involves jungles.

Let snipers move 2 hexes into jungle and battle!


My thoughts exactly.
      
stevens
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

User Pages
Posts: 3020
Registered:
February 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 22:09
Kelly's Hero wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 16:03

ad79 wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 12:30


I hope DOW changes this ruling. Let's keep the sniper a pain in the ass to play against, even if the scenario involves jungles.

Let snipers move 2 hexes into jungle and battle!


My thoughts exactly.



Don't hold your breath!

When playing on the board game at home you will always have the opportunity to house rule it, otherwise in the ONLINE VERSION you will just need to buck up and play it as the Rules say.
      
ad79
Senior Member
Major Howard

User Pages
Posts: 786
Registered:
September 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 22:14
JFKoski wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 21:11

We discussed this plenty already this year.
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=24457&start=0

Let's try to keep the same thread going, instead of starting a new one every month.


Sorry, didn't see that one.
      
Kelly's Hero
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 303
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 22:31
stevens wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 14:09

Kelly's Hero wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 16:03

ad79 wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 12:30


I hope DOW changes this ruling. Let's keep the sniper a pain in the ass to play against, even if the scenario involves jungles.

Let snipers move 2 hexes into jungle and battle!


My thoughts exactly.



Don't hold your breath!

When playing on the board game at home you will always have the opportunity to house rule it, otherwise in the ONLINE VERSION you will just need to buck up and play it as the Rules say.


Okay, "My thoughts exactly" meant that I have the same line of reasoning as what was put forth by ad79. I was referring to the part of his post that you edited out.

However, what you pointed out is true, though I will add this:

We actually play the online game 'as programmed' which is not always the same as 'as the rules say' (ie, the online game does still have defects). Determining what the rule is can't always be done by seeing how it works in the online game.
      
stevens
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

User Pages
Posts: 3020
Registered:
February 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 22:34
Quote:

Determining what the rule is can't always be done by seeing how it works in the online game.


Yes, you have said a mouthful.
      
Kelly's Hero
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 303
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Japanese Sniper Wed, 25 April 2012 22:39
JFKoski wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 13:11

We discussed this plenty already this year.
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=24457&start=0

Let's try to keep the same thread going, instead of starting a new one every month.


The subject of that thread didn't come up in this thread until the 12th post. This thread didn't begin on the question of whether snipers can move 2 into jungle and battle, it simply came up while following the course of the discussion about Japanese Snipers.

Yes, I try to search for existing threads when I start a new thread, but I don't go searching for existing threads every time I post in a discussion that is already rolling. Sometimes the subject of the thread drifts...

      
Antoine
-= Crew =-
Historian

User Pages
Posts: 1658
Registered:
April 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Thu, 26 April 2012 10:05
The question was directly asked to Richard.

A Sniper is ordered and move like a Special Forces Infantry unit. Special Forces Infantry units cannot move 2 hexes and battle when entering a Jungle hex.

So a Sniper cannot move 2 hexes and battle if entering a Jungle hex.

I saw that some players do not agree with this rule ; well sorry guys, but whether you like it or not, it is an official rule.

(I answered here and in the above linked thread to make things clear).

[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 10:13]

      
ad79
Senior Member
Major Howard

User Pages
Posts: 786
Registered:
September 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Thu, 26 April 2012 12:11
Antoine wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 10:05

The question was directly asked to Richard.

A Sniper is ordered and move like a Special Forces Infantry unit. Special Forces Infantry units cannot move 2 hexes and battle when entering a Jungle hex.

So a Sniper cannot move 2 hexes and battle if entering a Jungle hex.

I saw that some players do not agree with this rule ; well sorry guys, but whether you like it or not, it is an official rule.

(I answered here and in the above linked thread to make things clear).


Not sure which thread to reply to this to, but I am one of those that dissagree with this ruling.

I can agree that this is the rule, but the reasoning behind is flawed and creates serious inconsistency in the rules.

Antoine wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 10:05

A Sniper is ordered and move like a Special Forces Infantry unit. Special Forces Infantry units cannot move 2 hexes and battle when entering a Jungle hex.So a Sniper cannot move 2 hexes and battle if entering a Jungle hex.


But why can a Sniper battle when entering woods hexes after moving 2 hexes when Special Forces Infantry can't?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the jungle ruling.
      
stevens
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

User Pages
Posts: 3020
Registered:
February 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Thu, 26 April 2012 15:50
I just had one thought:

If a Japanese Sniper is given the JUNGLE FIGHTERS badge(CB #2), he may move 2 hexes into a jungle and battle.

So the simple solution is to upgrade your Japanese Snipers to Jungle fighters and there should be no issues. Cool

Quote:

Jungle fighter units are not affected by Jungle terrain movement or battle restrictions.
Jungle hexes still do block LOS.

http://cdn.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/320854/_5524_web.jpg

So Jungle Fighters can
- Ignore the 'must stop' of the terrain when moving in (or through!)
- May move 2 hexes into it and still battle (ie. melee as per IJ rules)
- Jungles afford no protection to targets that JF are targeting

[Updated on: Fri, 27 April 2012 15:14]

      
djedi gamer
Senior Member
Cadet

User Pages
Posts: 155
Registered:
July 2010
Re:Japanese Sniper Thu, 26 April 2012 17:06
...The Jungle is the place where special units - especially snipers - can lost...

[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 17:10]

      
deemao
Senior Member
Captain

User Pages
Posts: 170
Registered:
March 2011
Re:Sniper and Jungle Thu, 26 April 2012 18:18
Well, for me, the answer is still open. Cant Sniper move 2 into jungle and fight because the movement of 2? And what in this case:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/713928/_5522_web.jpg

He start his movement on the hex next to the jungle, move over the bridge with permanent medal and finish his movement in a jungle so it looks he didnt break any rule. He may be able to fight now. Well, its the same if it will be special infantry..

[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 18:23]

      
Kelly's Hero
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

User Pages
Posts: 303
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Japanese Sniper Thu, 26 April 2012 18:24
ad79 wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 04:11



I can agree that this is the rule, but the reasoning behind is flawed and creates serious inconsistency in the rules.

Antoine wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 10:05

A Sniper is ordered and move like a Special Forces Infantry unit. Special Forces Infantry units cannot move 2 hexes and battle when entering a Jungle hex.So a Sniper cannot move 2 hexes and battle if entering a Jungle hex.


But why can a Sniper battle when entering woods hexes after moving 2 hexes when Special Forces Infantry can't?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the jungle ruling.


That's what I would like to have cleared up - I can accept the rule, but the explanation is what does not make sense to me.
      
Sgt Storm
Senior Member
Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 881
Registered:
December 2006
Re:Japanese Sniper Fri, 27 April 2012 01:12
If you look at the Snipers card it specifically says:

"Move onto any terrain and may still battle, but must still obey terrain movement restrictions."

And the Eastern Front rule book statesL "He must still stop
and move no further in any terrain that limits movement."

So, while the sniper can end its move on a town hex and battle, it could not move through two adjacent town hexes.

Also, the sniper could not move two hexes into a hedgerow as that terrain also requires the unit start its move adjacent. So this is not a bias towards the Japanese Nation rules or the Pacific expansion.

Its just the rules and plainly spelled out in two places.
      
tank commander
Senior Member
I Love Pineapples

User Pages
Posts: 2081
Registered:
October 2004
Re:Sniper and Jungle Fri, 27 April 2012 01:52
deemao wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 12:18

Well, for me, the answer is still open. Cant Sniper move 2 into jungle and fight because the movement of 2? And what in this case:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/713928/_5522_web.jpg

He start his movement on the hex next to the jungle, move over the bridge with permanent medal and finish his movement in a jungle so it looks he didnt break any rule. He may be able to fight now. Well, its the same if it will be special infantry..


A nice attmept to get around the intent of the adjacent jungle and battle but it does not fly.

If a unit does not move directly into the jungle (as in your example above) then I believe it just forfeited the ability to battle.
      
tank commander
Senior Member
I Love Pineapples

User Pages
Posts: 2081
Registered:
October 2004
Re:Japanese Sniper Fri, 27 April 2012 02:04
Kelly's Hero wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 12:24

ad79 wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 04:11



I can agree that this is the rule, but the reasoning behind is flawed and creates serious inconsistency in the rules.

Antoine wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 10:05

A Sniper is ordered and move like a Special Forces Infantry unit. Special Forces Infantry units cannot move 2 hexes and battle when entering a Jungle hex.So a Sniper cannot move 2 hexes and battle if entering a Jungle hex.


But why can a Sniper battle when entering woods hexes after moving 2 hexes when Special Forces Infantry can't?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the jungle ruling.


That's what I would like to have cleared up - I can accept the rule, but the explanation is what does not make sense to me.




I think the basic thing is that the Jungle battle restriction cannot be overridden, even by a Sniper. You can think of it in that light instead of making the apples-oranges terrain comparision.
      
stevens
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

User Pages
Posts: 3020
Registered:
February 2007
Re:Japanese Sniper Fri, 27 April 2012 14:58
tank commander wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 20:04


I think the basic thing is that the Jungle battle restriction cannot be overridden, even by a Sniper. You can think of it in that light instead of making the apples-oranges terrain comparision.


The Jungle battle restriction can be overridden:
If you make your snipers JUNGLE FIGHTERS


Quote:

Jungle fighter units are not affected by Jungle terrain movement or battle restrictions.
Jungle hexes still do block LOS.

http://cdn.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/320854/_5524_web.jpg

So Jungle Fighters can
- Ignore the 'must stop' of the terrain when moving in (or through!)
- May move 2 hexes into it and still battle (ie. melee as per IJ rules)
- Jungles afford no protection to targets that JF are targeting


[Updated on: Fri, 27 April 2012 15:14]

      
deemao
Senior Member
Captain

User Pages
Posts: 170
Registered:
March 2011
Re:Sniper and Jungle Fri, 27 April 2012 15:13
I know that it's just spelling with words, but it's a need to have clear rules. And truth is that I think nowhere is written that you cannot move around the terrain hex and enter it from second hex (but still start movement from adjancent hex. Nowhere is that you MUST go directly. And that's what is my picture about..

I think nobody cares about this, because it was nonsense and it wasnt needed - because unit's "abilities". But here collide the rule about snipers fight ability and jungle restrictions.

Stevens - but that is not the resolution. Change one unit to another just because non-clear rules. They are two totaly different units.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 April 2012 15:13]

      
Antoine
-= Crew =-
Historian

User Pages
Posts: 1658
Registered:
April 2007
Re:Sniper and Jungle Fri, 27 April 2012 16:00
tank commander écrit le Fri, 27 April 2012 01:52

If a unit does not move directly into the jungle (as in your example above) then I believe it just forfeited the ability to battle.
Correct.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 April 2012 16:01]

      
    
Previous Topic:BEL + Combat Card "Heat of Battle"
Next Topic:Japanese Sniper / Nation Rules
Goto Forum: