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clexton27
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New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sat, 28 July 2012 15:18
P.4 Equipment Pack Rules
Quote:

Assault Bridge
In lieu of battling, a Hobart's Funnies unit equipped with an Assault Bridge may place its bridge over any adjacent River hex and move onto it during the same turn. Once set, the Assault Bridge functions the same as a standard bridge (Terrain 9 Bridges). The bridge accessory may only be used one time; once placed, another bridge may not be built by this same Churchill unit during the game.


1. Does this mean that the Churchill with the Assault Bridge MUST begin it's turn adjacent to a river hex?

2. Does this mean that the entire MOVEMENT aspect of the turn involves placement of the bridge and one movement hex upon the bridge with no further movement allowed?

3. May the unit still battle after placing the bridge or is ALL it's effort consumed in bridge placement?

[Updated on: Sat, 28 July 2012 15:19]

      
hdescavernes
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sat, 28 July 2012 16:26
about point 3, doesn't the first sentence ("in lieu of battling") answer this ?
      
hdescavernes
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sat, 28 July 2012 16:27
as for point 1, as this is "in lieu of batling", therefore following the movement phase, I'd say that you do NOT have to start adjacent


If I'm right it logically follows that you cannot move anymore after placing the bridge so no to point 2

[Updated on: Sat, 28 July 2012 16:29]

      
clexton27
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sat, 28 July 2012 16:49
hdescavernes wrote on Sat, 28 July 2012 10:26

about point 3, doesn't the first sentence ("in lieu of battling") answer this ?


DUH! Embarassed

THOUGHT:
So if the Armor unit has 3 movement points, are you are saying it may move two hexes to a hex adjacent to a River. Place the bridge and use its third movement point to move upon the bridge that is now on the River hex?
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sat, 28 July 2012 16:55
Strictly reading what is written:

Movement (nothing to say it can't use full movement) - 3 hexes

Battle: Instead of battling, place the bridge and move onto it.

Seems that the unit gets to move 4, if it places the bridge and doesn't battle.

Opinion: perhaps placing the bridge causes the unit to be on it. It's supposed to be a bailey bridge or some such, yes?

[Updated on: Sat, 28 July 2012 16:55]

      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sat, 28 July 2012 17:20
I would state that the tank can move up to 2 hexes - then place a bridge and then move its third hex onto the bridge. I do not think that placing a bridge allows a bonus 4th hex of movement.
      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sat, 28 July 2012 17:49
that's not how the rules are written, tank commander

but, of course, opinions abound

[Updated on: Sat, 28 July 2012 17:52]

      
clexton27
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 00:55
Do you see now why I am asking these questions in advance! We already have several opinions on how the rules are to be interpreted.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 01:33
--JP wrote on Sat, 28 July 2012 11:49

that's not how the rules are written, tank commander

but, of course, opinions abound


I beg to differ - that section does not state a tank unit gets an extra hex of movement - I would think it would have been included if that was the case.

I guess one could argue that the as the bridge laying replaces battle and therefore the move onto the bridge may be considered a form of taking ground?

But we shall see....
      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 01:42
you are allowed to differ. The rules state that it can lay the bridge in leiu of battling.

Battling occurs _after_ movement.

It states that the vehicle may occupy the hex when it lays the bridge.

No extra MP needed.

Move,lay the bridge instead of combat, occupy the bridge if you lay it.

If the movement were curtailed, it would state it. It doesn't, therefore movement is not curtailed.

The only questions about the section all stem from "Do the rules really mean what they state?"

yes, they do.

Of course, if the rule writers left something out.. well.. can't fight city hall.

It will probably go the way of the combat engineers moving onto a "0" minefield - something wierd.

[Updated on: Sun, 29 July 2012 01:44]

      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 01:54
--JP wrote on Sat, 28 July 2012 19:42

If the movement were curtailed, it would state it. It doesn't, therefore movement is not curtailed.


How would a tank moving up to 3 hexes (including occupying a laid bridge) curtail a normal 3 hex move?

Basically it is stating that a tank that lays a bridge cannot battle. So following the normal move - battle pattern may be assumptive here.

      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 02:10
--JP wrote on Sat, 28 July 2012 19:42

If the movement were curtailed, it would state it. It doesn't, therefore movement is not curtailed.


How does a tank moving 3 hexes (including the 1 hex onto a laid bridge) curtial a normal 3 hex move?

What is clear that a tank that lays a bridge cannot battle. So following the normal move - battle order may be assuming too much in this special case.
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 02:19
There is no curtailment. 3 hex move, bridge lay instead of battle, advance onto the bridge when you lay it.

I guess I don't understand your question.

and since it's pointless to debate - no conclusion reached here has any weight, I'm out.
      
Phread
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 02:38
stevens wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 01:18

P.4 Equipment Pack Rules
Quote:

Assault Bridge
In lieu of battling, a Hobart's Funnies unit equipped with an Assault Bridge may place its bridge over any adjacent River hex and move onto it during the same turn. Once set, the Assault Bridge functions the same as a standard bridge (Terrain 9 Bridges). The bridge accessory may only be used one time; once placed, another bridge may not be built by this same Churchill unit during the game.


1. Does this mean that the Churchill with the Assault Bridge MUST begin it's turn adjacent to a river hex?

2. Does this mean that the entire MOVEMENT aspect of the turn involves placement of the bridge and one movement hex upon the bridge with no further movement allowed?

3. May the unit still battle after placing the bridge or is ALL it's effort consumed in bridge placement?


When placing the bridge the unit may not battle.
It can place it on an adjacent river hex - which suggests to me that the unit has to start adjacent to the river.

I am not clear whether the unit can only move 1 hex onto the new bridge or move onto, across and off the bridge in the placement turn. Is the bridge placed in the movement phase of the bridging unit?

Can anyother unit move across the bridge on the turn of placement?
Image two armour units next to the river. One unit places a bridge. The other unit moves 3 hexes onto across and off the bridge to battle on the other side of the river. Is this allowed?
      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 03:49
can't keep quiet...

it states 'in lieu of battling',, things like clearing wire, removing mines, abatis, etc all use this phrase. It happens in the combat phase and if done, the unit cannot battle mormally.

Therefore, no other unit could possibly move over the bridge the turn it is placed, as it is the Combat phase.

"The bridge is placed on an adjacent river hex"

Ok, since the bridge is placed in lieu of combat (i.e. during the combat phase), there is nothing remotely suggesting the unit could not move during the previous movement phase.

Just read the rules as written, accept them. Every word makes sense and is unambiguous. The only issue anyone is having goes back to some kind of incredulity that the rules can't possibly mean what they say.

They do. And when accepted, as written, there are no issues with interactions with other units, or who can move onto the bridge when it is placed.

The phase sequences are clear.

in my opinion, of course
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 03:51
and is it time for WBC? (Phread, if there are any giveaways, I'll grab you one)
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 04:02
--JP wrote on Sat, 28 July 2012 20:19

There is no curtailment. 3 hex move, bridge lay instead of battle, advance onto the bridge when you lay it.

I guess I don't understand your question.


Umm, my question was in response to this passage from your prior post:

"If the movement were curtailed, it would state it. It doesn't, therefore movement is not curtailed."


Sometimes the things we are most certain of are not.

[Updated on: Sun, 29 July 2012 04:04]

      
Phread
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 04:08
Why would the rules allow the brigde laying unit to move onto the bridge if the bridge is placed in the combat phase?
      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 04:08
and tank commander, I stand by all of my statements.

The movement is not stated to be curtailed. (There is no reduction for a 3 hex move implied anywhere). Therefore, the unit can move 3 hexes.

It can lay the bridge in lieu of battling (not in lieu of movement) and can advance onto the bridge it laid.

The over-arching paragraph for Hobart's Funnies is just above the section for Assault Bridges.

It states:

"Hobart’s Funnies units move and battle like normal Tank units."

Period. There is no uncertainty, except when one thinks the rules, as written, cannot mean what they say.

      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 04:10
Phread, the rules don't explain _why_.

They simply state that it _can_.

Perhaps it's part of the bridge laying process? Perhaps it's being treated like an over-run?

Regardless, the rules, as written, state that the bridge-laying unit may move onto it.
      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 04:24
--JP wrote on Sat, 28 July 2012 22:08

and tank commander, I stand by all of my statements.

The movement is not stated to be curtailed. (There is no reduction for a 3 hex move implied anywhere). Therefore, the unit can move 3 hexes.

It can lay the bridge in lieu of battling (not in lieu of movement) and can advance onto the bridge it laid.

The over-arching paragraph for Hobart's Funnies is just above the section for Assault Bridges.

It states:

"Hobart’s Funnies units move and battle like normal Tank units."

Period. There is no uncertainty, except when one thinks the rules, as written, cannot mean what they say.





Now I do not understand you. By your reasoning a tank that lays a bridge can move up to 4 hexes. Why was that not made more clear in the rules?

I am sorry but just because you think you are 110% right on this does not make it so.

As you said earlier, I am outta here but unlike you I shall not return a few posts later.
      
Phread
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 05:32
Let's not start attacking each other for expressing a different view.

The rules are clear the act of bridge laying prevents the bridge laying unit battling.

For me the questions about bridge laying and movement are not resolved.

Hopefully someone from DoW might clarify the issue.
      
Almilcar
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 10:34
Hello,

after re-reading the thread a few times, this is the conclusion I do get:

- Hobart's Funnies fitted with an Assault Bridge may place the bridge instead of battling, thus it happens in the Combat Phase of the turn.
- Once deployed, it may move onto it. An additional movement is needed for this during the combat phase, so my understanding is that the unit may Take Ground after placing the bridge.

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rules. For newbies like me, it's an invaluable lesson . Smile
      
deemao
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 10:51
Well, my two cents..it clearly states that the action of laying is in lieu of battling, so after movement phase. It doesnt states that the unit must start its movement in adjancent hex. For me - first normal movement phase (0-3 hexes), then if you are at adjancent hex you can lay the bridge. This "and move onto it during the same turn" means for me, that you lay this bridge and you control him. It would be strange if in your oponnents next turn some of his unit will cross this bridge without battling and advance between your positions. So this move onto bridge is there for control of the bridge and it's special action related to laying. Something like "block the bridge guys". Smile

Hmm, but question is, if you can lay the bridge, stay where you are and let some of your other units cross the bridge..Probably yes, because there is "may".

[Updated on: Sun, 29 July 2012 10:55]

      
clexton27
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 12:24
deemao wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 04:51

Well, my two cents..it clearly states that the action of laying is in lieu of battling, so after movement phase. It doesnt states that the unit must start its movement in adjancent hex. For me - first normal movement phase (0-3 hexes), then if you are at adjancent hex you can lay the bridge. This "and move onto it during the same turn" means for me, that you lay this bridge and you control him. It would be strange if in your oponnents next turn some of his unit will cross this bridge without battling and advance between your positions. So this move onto bridge is there for control of the bridge and it's special action related to laying. Something like "block the bridge guys".


I am warming up to this particular view.

[Updated on: Sun, 29 July 2012 12:24]

      
50th
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 13:16
stevens wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 05:24

deemao wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 04:51

Well, my two cents..it clearly states that the action of laying is in lieu of battling, so after movement phase. It doesnt states that the unit must start its movement in adjancent hex. For me - first normal movement phase (0-3 hexes), then if you are at adjancent hex you can lay the bridge. This "and move onto it during the same turn" means for me, that you lay this bridge and you control him. It would be strange if in your oponnents next turn some of his unit will cross this bridge without battling and advance between your positions. So this move onto bridge is there for control of the bridge and it's special action related to laying. Something like "block the bridge guys".


I am warming up to this particular view.


I am just joining this conversation, but I agree with you, it is in lieu of battling like engineers removing a mine.
      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 15:03
tank commander, I responded to a question you made after I said I'd leave..

and I will do the same now. You just asked:

"By your reasoning a tank that lays a bridge can move up to 4 hexes. Why was that not made more clear in the rules?"

More clear? Well, that is the way the rules as written read.

As to 'why', can't answer that.

A tank that moves 3 spaces may get the opportunity to take ground (twice). So moving a space is allowed in the combat phase.

I do not feel 110% right. No such thing.

If anything, I may have been over-zealous in response to your other quote:

"Sometimes the things we are most certain of are not."

I think Yoda said that...(insert smiley face)

Anyway, not my intent to offend or 'attack' anyone. Since there are questions, it seems that it's not obvious to all what the interpretation should be. What I'd hate to do is lose the potential of meeting a decent person across the M44 board.

If I've rubbed you the wrong way, my apologies, tank commander - no personal offense meant, whatsoever. Sent an email, as well.


      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 16:14
--JP wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 09:03

tank commander, I responded to a question you made after I said I'd leave..

and I will do the same now. You just asked:

"By your reasoning a tank that lays a bridge can move up to 4 hexes. Why was that not made more clear in the rules?"

More clear? Well, that is the way the rules as written read.

As to 'why', can't answer that.

A tank that moves 3 spaces may get the opportunity to take ground (twice). So moving a space is allowed in the combat phase.

I do not feel 110% right. No such thing.

If anything, I may have been over-zealous in response to your other quote:

"Sometimes the things we are most certain of are not."

I think Yoda said that...(insert smiley face)

Anyway, not my intent to offend or 'attack' anyone. Since there are questions, it seems that it's not obvious to all what the interpretation should be. What I'd hate to do is lose the potential of meeting a decent person across the M44 board.

If I've rubbed you the wrong way, my apologies, tank commander - no personal offense meant, whatsoever. Sent an email, as well.






Well, I said I would not post again on this thread but....

JP - sent a reply to your PM.

Well I cannot top the above post - I just offer up my thanks to you sir and my apologies too.

      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 16:31
tank commander - let's blame it all on stevens! it's all _his_ fault!
      
clexton27
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 17:36
I will gladly accept the blame if it gets us all to talking and figuring. I am very much aware when I read some of these new rules that they are not always written succinctly enough that ONLY ONE conclusion can be drawn from them. My goal is always to have some discussion and in the end have DOW concur with the community on the best way to understand this. In this way when we play together, we ALL know what to expect and there is less frustration and misunderstanding later. FAQ questions and answers will arise from this discussion and in that way, the whole community benefits.

It takes a village to answer a question.

[Updated on: Sun, 29 July 2012 17:40]

      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 19:59
--JP wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 10:31

tank commander - let's blame it all on stevens! it's all _his_ fault!



Hey your right but do not tell him we are after him Laughing
      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Sun, 29 July 2012 20:03
stevens wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 11:36

I will gladly accept the blame if it gets us all to talking and figuring. I am very much aware when I read some of these new rules that they are not always written succinctly enough that ONLY ONE conclusion can be drawn from them. My goal is always to have some discussion and in the end have DOW concur with the community on the best way to understand this. In this way when we play together, we ALL know what to expect and there is less frustration and misunderstanding later. FAQ questions and answers will arise from this discussion and in that way, the whole community benefits.

It takes a village to answer a question.



A worthy goal indeed and certainly helpful down the road.

      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Mon, 30 July 2012 00:25
I just got back from a weekend away, so you can all blame me. (Stevens, you're off the hook, because of your astute observations about Nebelwerfers.)

I, too, am swayed by the logic that says, since the bridge is placed "in lieu of battling," it can happen after standard movement. Because it's during the battle phase, friendly units can't immediately use the bridge. I distinguish between engineers removing mines or roadblocks (where they may move) and Hospital Recovery (which specifies that the unit may not move or battle). Also, Armor Breakthrough and Reinforcements are two actions that create something and specify that movement is not permitted.

To me, the reference to "any adjacent River hex" seems to specify which hexes are eligible, rather than restricting the Hobart's movement.

Analyzing a step farther, though, it says, "may place its bridge over any adjacent River hex and move onto it during the same turn." It sounds to me like moving onto the bridge probably is a necessary part of the special action -- not optional. (Why did the Hobart cross the bridge? To get it to the other side.) This could pose its own element of risk in scenarios where the enemy is able to blow up bridges.
      
clexton27
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Mon, 30 July 2012 00:55
Stirring the pot further.....
Twisted Evil

One other thing to consider:

If a Hobart funny with a bridge moves into a hex adjacent to a River that limits either further movement or battling (i.e. woods, village, minefield, wire, etc.) can it still lay its bridge or move onto it?

Can it do part of its effort or none of it?

[Updated on: Mon, 30 July 2012 01:00]

      
sam1812
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Mon, 30 July 2012 01:03
stevens wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 18:55

Stirring the pot further.....
Twisted Evil

One other thing to consider:

If a Hobart funny with a bridge moves into a hex adjacent to a River that limits either further movement or battling (i.e. woods, village, minefield, wire, etc.) can it still lay its bridge or move onto it?

Can it do part of its effort or none of it?

No. If a tank moves into a town (for example), it can't battle. Therefore, it can't perform another action in lieu of battling.

We've had similar examples before: IJA moving into wire not being able to remove the wire if there is no adjacent enemy unit or if the enemy unit is no longer there ... engineer moving onto a town hex that also has a minefield.
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Mon, 30 July 2012 01:04
stevens wrote on Mon, 30 July 2012 02:55

Stirring the pot further.....
Twisted Evil

One other thing to consider:

If a Hobart funny with a bridge moves into a hex adjacent to a River that limits either further movement or battling (i.e. woods, village, minefield, wire, etc.) can it still lay its bridge or move onto it?

Can it do part of its effort or none of it?



Now you guys are just reaching clear into the pot!! Laughing

Moving into terrain always ends a turn unless otherwise noted. Smile
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Mon, 30 July 2012 01:57
Consider this, an armor unit moving into a wire may still battle. So why couldn't a Hobart with a bridge moving into a wire lay the bridge but just not move onto it.
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Mon, 30 July 2012 02:19
stevens wrote on Mon, 30 July 2012 03:57

Consider this, an armor unit moving into a wire may still battle. So why couldn't a Hobart with a bridge moving into a wire lay the bridge but just not move onto it.


Yeah, that could work. I'm still not convinced that this rule allows the Armor to move an extra hex...just like moving into Bunkers and battling doesn't let Infantry move any exta hex to attack. But maybe I'm alone in that view, which is fine.
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Tue, 31 July 2012 20:13
Let's go back to the basics.
The rulebook of the base game.

It says:
On your turn, follow the sequence below:
1 - Play a Command card.
2 - ORDER. Announce all units you intend to order, within the limits of the Section or Tactical Command card
just played.
3 - MOVE. Move all ordered units you wish, one at a time. Respect unit and terrain movement limitations,
as per the summary cards.
4 - BATTLE. Battle one ordered unit at a time. Select an enemy target and
a. Check Battle Range (by counting down the Battle dice, see page 9), and Line of Sight (page 9)
b. Check for potential Terrain effects (page 13).
c. Resolve Battle (page 10)
5 - Draw a new Command card.


1: I play a recon 1 card for the section which contains a tank with a hobart funny able to laying a bridge.
2: I order the tank unit with the hobart funny.
3: I can move the funny. A few pages further, the rulebook says: Armor Movement
An ordered Armor unit may move up to 3 hexes and battle.

We've stated that my hobart can move like armor, so he can move 3 and still battle.
4: Provided I did not move onto terrain that prevents me from battling, I can now battle. The hobart funny can lay a bridge instead of battling. The laying a bridge action is: if adjacent to a river hex, place a bridge onto the river hex and you may move onto it. Nothing states that you can only do this if you didn't do a full movement during your movement phase. Also: the rules just said in the part above, that the movement occurs before battling, so if this hobart can still move after/during his action that replaces battling, it is a kind of movement that is outside of the movement phase like an ormor overrun. However, if I moved onto wire or mines or other terrain or obstacles that state that I cannot move any further for the rest of the turn, I believe I am allowed to lay the bridge but I would not be allowed to move onto it.
5: this you know

Compare to what exists already: you are allowed to make an armor overrun, even if you have done your full movement during the movement phase. You are not allowed to do an armor overrun if you moved into wire or mines. I see no reason for it to be different with the hobarts.

That's how I see this.
      
50th
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Re:New Equipment Pack ASSAULT BRIDGE Tue, 31 July 2012 23:26
The answer lies in the phrase "in lieu of battling", like the engineer that can remove the mine instead of battling. One can remove a mine instead of battling, and the other can move onto the bridge instead of battling!
      
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