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stevens
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New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Sun, 29 July 2012 19:11
SMOKE SHELLS
p. 3 Equipment Pack Rules:
Quote:

Line of Sight: A hex containing a Smoke Shell blocks Line of Sight,
though units that are in the hex containing this Smoke Shell may be
seen and see out of that hex. In other words, a unit is hidden from line
of sight only if the line of sight crosses the hex containing a Smoke
Shell. Smoke Shell hexes also block line of sight for Artillery units.


Is this introducing a NEW RULE?

In most situations, MOST artillery (Heavy-Antitank guns being an exception) do not need line of sight to their target. Does this mean that in the presence of Smoke Screens, ALL units now need LOS (this would also include Mortars) if they are firing ACROSS hexes with Smoke Screen Markers?
      
tank commander
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Sun, 29 July 2012 20:09
stevens wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 13:11

SMOKE SHELLS
p. 3 Equipment Pack Rules:
Quote:

Line of Sight: A hex containing a Smoke Shell blocks Line of Sight,
though units that are in the hex containing this Smoke Shell may be
seen and see out of that hex. In other words, a unit is hidden from line
of sight only if the line of sight crosses the hex containing a Smoke
Shell. Smoke Shell hexes also block line of sight for Artillery units.


Is this introducing a NEW RULE?

In most situations, MOST artillery (Heavy-Antitank guns being an exception) do not need line of sight to their target. Does this mean that in the presence of Smoke Screens, ALL units now need LOS (this would also include Mortars) if they are firing ACROSS hexes with Smoke Screen Markers?



I missed that one.

Hmmm, that wording throws me - how is something blocked when that unit type does not need to have LOS to fire.

But the implication it that arty might not be able to target units is there is Smoke Shell hexes between it and the target unit.

[Updated on: Sun, 29 July 2012 20:09]

      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Sun, 29 July 2012 20:23
Maybe it means those units that are arty - but need LOS?

88mm guns?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Mon, 30 July 2012 01:35
stevens wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 21:11

SMOKE SHELLS
p. 3 Equipment Pack Rules:
Quote:

Line of Sight: A hex containing a Smoke Shell blocks Line of Sight,
though units that are in the hex containing this Smoke Shell may be
seen and see out of that hex. In other words, a unit is hidden from line
of sight only if the line of sight crosses the hex containing a Smoke
Shell. Smoke Shell hexes also block line of sight for Artillery units.


Is this introducing a NEW RULE?

In most situations, MOST artillery (Heavy-Antitank guns being an exception) do not need line of sight to their target. Does this mean that in the presence of Smoke Screens, ALL units now need LOS (this would also include Mortars) if they are firing ACROSS hexes with Smoke Screen Markers?


So it would seem. Cool

In history, Smoke Screens were used all the time to prevent Artillery from firing on ground troops, so it makes sense. Smile
      
Quit2
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Tue, 31 July 2012 20:22
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 30 July 2012 01:35

stevens wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 21:11

SMOKE SHELLS
p. 3 Equipment Pack Rules:
Quote:

Line of Sight: A hex containing a Smoke Shell blocks Line of Sight,
though units that are in the hex containing this Smoke Shell may be
seen and see out of that hex. In other words, a unit is hidden from line
of sight only if the line of sight crosses the hex containing a Smoke
Shell. Smoke Shell hexes also block line of sight for Artillery units.


Is this introducing a NEW RULE?

In most situations, MOST artillery (Heavy-Antitank guns being an exception) do not need line of sight to their target. Does this mean that in the presence of Smoke Screens, ALL units now need LOS (this would also include Mortars) if they are firing ACROSS hexes with Smoke Screen Markers?


So it would seem. Cool

In history, Smoke Screens were used all the time to prevent Artillery from firing on ground troops, so it makes sense. Smile

Again, it's not like this is new: we have seen the rules about mountains being impassable by artillery fire ... that's actually also line of sight for artillery ...
      
50th
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Tue, 31 July 2012 23:20
Maybe its talking about the German 88, which does need LOS. Artillery needs LOS only if you have a forward observer, if you fire blind, you don't need LOS, however your shots will scatter all over the area. Maybe it's because of rules of war, smoke prevented the ships from firing longer at Iwo Jima because it was a standing Naval rule that you had to be able to see what you were shooting at. If you took a shot in the dark, so to speak, you should be able to hit something, however you would have a greater chance to miss your target. Maybe this would make a good house rule, get out the old arty scatter chart!

      
rasmussen81
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Tue, 31 July 2012 23:32
50th wrote on Wed, 01 August 2012 01:20

Maybe its talking about the German 88, which does need LOS. Artillery needs LOS only if you have a forward observer, if you fire blind, you don't need LOS, however your shots will scatter all over the area. Maybe it's because of rules of war, smoke prevented the ships from firing longer at Iwo Jima because it was a standing Naval rule that you had to be able to see what you were shooting at. If you took a shot in the dark, so to speak, you should be able to hit something, however you would have a greater chance to miss your target. Maybe this would make a good house rule, get out the old arty scatter chart!



Sounds like an interesting House Rule! Cool

As written, it clearly says that the Smoke Shells block LOS for Artillery...not just German 88 units. But as with all things, you can modify the rule to fit whatever effect you want, and the scatter shot is certainly realistic. Smile
      
sam1812
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Sat, 04 August 2012 09:45
I asked Richard about the Smoke Shells. He confirmed, yes, they block line-of-sight for conventional artillery, too.
      
stevens
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Sat, 04 August 2012 15:00
sam1812 wrote on Sat, 04 August 2012 03:45

I asked Richard about the Smoke Shells. He confirmed, yes, they block line-of-sight for conventional artillery, too.


Thanks Sam for going straight to the horses mouth.
Laughing
Hope you all are having a great time at the WBC!

What about Mortars, does it block their LOS too?

[Updated on: Sat, 04 August 2012 15:02]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Sat, 04 August 2012 17:36
stevens wrote on Sat, 04 August 2012 17:00

sam1812 wrote on Sat, 04 August 2012 03:45

I asked Richard about the Smoke Shells. He confirmed, yes, they block line-of-sight for conventional artillery, too.


Thanks Sam for going straight to the horses mouth.
Laughing
Hope you all are having a great time at the WBC!


Great, I'll include this in the next FAQ Update.

Quote:

What about Mortars, does it block their LOS too?


Yes...if it blocks LOS for Artillery (where hardly anything blocks their LOS) then it most certainly blocks Mortar LOS.
      
Almilcar
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Wed, 08 August 2012 23:06
One question regarding Smoke Shells.

I know it may sound a bit weird at first sight, but...

Since Smoke Shells don't inflict damage on units, can I place the Smoke Screen markers on hexes occupied by units, regardless they are friend or foe as long as the hex it's within range?
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Wed, 08 August 2012 23:18
Almilcar wrote on Thu, 09 August 2012 01:06

One question regarding Smoke Shells.

I know it may sound a bit weird at first sight, but...

Since Smoke Shells don't inflict damage on units, can I place the Smoke Screen markers on hexes occupied by units, regardless they are friend or foe as long as the hex it's within range?


Absolutely, but don't forget that a unit (friendly or enemy) can still see out of a Smoke Screen hex, and can be seen. So basically you would be wasting the Smoke Screen.

Is there a situation that you have in mind when this might be useful? Rolling Eyes
      
--JP
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Thu, 09 August 2012 00:59
Rasmussen81, per the rules:

"Battle: When targeting a unit that is on a hex containing a Smoke Shell,reduce the number of Battle dice rolled by 1. And a unit battling from a hex containing a Smoke Shell battles out at minus 1 die."

You can drop smoke and cause the unit to chose between moving or shooting at -1.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Thu, 09 August 2012 01:15
--JP wrote on Thu, 09 August 2012 02:59

Rasmussen81, per the rules:

"Battle: When targeting a unit that is on a hex containing a Smoke Shell,reduce the number of Battle dice rolled by 1. And a unit battling from a hex containing a Smoke Shell battles out at minus 1 die."

You can drop smoke and cause the unit to chose between moving or shooting at -1.


That's true; that's a choice I hadn't considered forcing my opponent to make. But I would think that I might want to block LOS...or set the Smoke Screen in a place where his units would have to move into the smoke to attack me.

For example, if I set the Screen on the same hex with an Infantry unit, all it has to do is move one hex forward to step out of the smoke and attack at full strength. For Elite Infantry, I would set the Screen two hexes away (if I could) to force them to shoot from the Smoke if they want to attack me.

I still can't think of a time when it would be best to shoot the Smoke Screen right onto the hex with an enemy unit. But there might be a time... Razz
      
ad79
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Fri, 10 August 2012 19:50
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 09 August 2012 01:15

--JP wrote on Thu, 09 August 2012 02:59

Rasmussen81, per the rules:

"Battle: When targeting a unit that is on a hex containing a Smoke Shell,reduce the number of Battle dice rolled by 1. And a unit battling from a hex containing a Smoke Shell battles out at minus 1 die."

You can drop smoke and cause the unit to chose between moving or shooting at -1.


That's true; that's a choice I hadn't considered forcing my opponent to make. But I would think that I might want to block LOS...or set the Smoke Screen in a place where his units would have to move into the smoke to attack me.

For example, if I set the Screen on the same hex with an Infantry unit, all it has to do is move one hex forward to step out of the smoke and attack at full strength. For Elite Infantry, I would set the Screen two hexes away (if I could) to force them to shoot from the Smoke if they want to attack me.

I still can't think of a time when it would be best to shoot the Smoke Screen right onto the hex with an enemy unit. But there might be a time... Razz


When the enemy unit is infantry and is behind a river and you have tanks on your side.... Or was that stretching it a bit Maybe??
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Fri, 10 August 2012 20:07
ad79 wrote on Fri, 10 August 2012 21:50

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 09 August 2012 01:15

--JP wrote on Thu, 09 August 2012 02:59

Rasmussen81, per the rules:

"Battle: When targeting a unit that is on a hex containing a Smoke Shell,reduce the number of Battle dice rolled by 1. And a unit battling from a hex containing a Smoke Shell battles out at minus 1 die."

You can drop smoke and cause the unit to chose between moving or shooting at -1.


That's true; that's a choice I hadn't considered forcing my opponent to make. But I would think that I might want to block LOS...or set the Smoke Screen in a place where his units would have to move into the smoke to attack me.

For example, if I set the Screen on the same hex with an Infantry unit, all it has to do is move one hex forward to step out of the smoke and attack at full strength. For Elite Infantry, I would set the Screen two hexes away (if I could) to force them to shoot from the Smoke if they want to attack me.

I still can't think of a time when it would be best to shoot the Smoke Screen right onto the hex with an enemy unit. But there might be a time... Razz


When the enemy unit is infantry and is behind a river and you have tanks on your side.... Or was that stretching it a bit Maybe??



Sure! That could work...and I could see using the Smoke that way if the situation came up. Cool Nice job coming up with an example! Very Happy
      
sam1812
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Mon, 20 August 2012 14:46
Another question came up yesterday. Are the die reductions for battling out of and into smoke added to terrain reductions? For example:

Can a tank battle into a forest if the tank is on the edge of a smoke screen? (I think no, because it's similar to battling out of wire.)

Can a tank battle into a forest if the forest is on the edge of a smoke screen? (I think no again. If dice are reduced battling out, they should be reduced battling in, too. Smoke should make terrain reductions worse.)

On open terrain, how many dice does a tank roll if both it and the target are in smoke screens? (I think it's reduced by 2d, so the tank would roll 1d.)
      
stevens
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Mon, 20 August 2012 16:18
sam1812 wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 08:46

Another question came up yesterday. Are the die reductions for battling out of and into smoke added to terrain reductions? For example:

Can a tank battle into a forest if the tank is on the edge of a smoke screen? (I think no, because it's similar to battling out of wire.)

Can a tank battle into a forest if the forest is on the edge of a smoke screen? (I think no again. If dice are reduced battling out, they should be reduced battling in, too. Smoke should make terrain reductions worse.)

On open terrain, how many dice does a tank roll if both it and the target are in smoke screens? (I think it's reduced by 2d, so the tank would roll 1d.)


Makes sense to me.
      
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Re:New Equipment Pack SMOKE SHELLS Mon, 20 August 2012 16:22
stevens wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 18:18

sam1812 wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 08:46

Another question came up yesterday. Are the die reductions for battling out of and into smoke added to terrain reductions? For example:

Can a tank battle into a forest if the tank is on the edge of a smoke screen? (I think no, because it's similar to battling out of wire.)

Can a tank battle into a forest if the forest is on the edge of a smoke screen? (I think no again. If dice are reduced battling out, they should be reduced battling in, too. Smoke should make terrain reductions worse.)

On open terrain, how many dice does a tank roll if both it and the target are in smoke screens? (I think it's reduced by 2d, so the tank would roll 1d.)


Makes sense to me.


I would have to agree. The rules clearly say that dice are reduced battling out of the Smoke and battling into the Smoke.
      
    
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