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dea1
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general thoughts on team events Wed, 12 September 2012 21:56
To all who play NC and/or CL or refuse to play it because they don't like the format:

In several years we had discussions about possible formats for team competitions, that contained lots of interesting and generally valid ideas - good

These discussions always came up during registration phase of NC - bad, because at that time everyone is focused on what he consideres to be "the spirit of NC", and other ideas are not welcome at that time

Therefore I open this thread to discuss what the community might like to see for the future.

---

Currently we have 2 time slots for team competitions - Sep-Nov (Dec) and Feb-Apr (May).
I think the times are good in terms of holidays, and I don't think a 3rd one would fit in, so we could choose 2 different formats for team events to be played next year.

What could be there?

1) NC as it is
Aim is national teams only - TNTs tolerated to give players of "small nations" a chance to participate, but everyone is strongly asked to try for a pure national team

2) CL as it is
Team members must be from different countries


Here come the ideas I remember, please add your own.
Details would have to be worked on, for a start I think just ideas are sufficient.

3) Ryder Cup
Germany vs "rest of the world" or 4(?) zones

4) Play with your friends no matter where they're from
No restrictions as to nationalities, anyone just chooses with whom he wants to play

5) National teams, but max 1 team per nation. Small countries can recruit foreign legionaries from all countries.

6) No nationality restrictions, but other restrictions (like max. ELO, max. amount of #1's per team, ...)

---

I'd like to know

a) which other ideas do you have?

b) If you had to pick 2 out of these variants, what would it be?

e.g.
dea's choice:
V1 (NC) in autumn
V4 (play with your friends) in spring

---

Idea behind this: Discuss possible ideas for the future in a neutral environment.
So please refrain from comments like "this year's NC is crap because ..."
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 01:02
Tricky part is to manage to have 2 tourneys with 2 clear identities.

If a tourney happens to be the baby of the other one; that wont work anymore.

It's all a matter of balance between both. if lineups are the same in both tourneys, what's the point.

I guess, there's should be no limitations on forming a team anymore on the spring tourney. Then v1 and v4.


On a format : We could have all the teams in CL playing for the right to fight against the winner of the previous edition in the Final. (like America's cup).
That would give a bit more prestige to the event.

On the playing format : instead of playing only 2ers in both tourneys, why not adding a bit of spice. Quick tag tourney was fun and attractive.
Why not adding a multi, a 3er or a tag in it.
That would renew the team tourney genre.

[Updated on: Thu, 13 September 2012 01:03]

      
dea1
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 15:35
Sysyphus AMD schrieb am Thu, 13 September 2012 01:02

Why not adding a multi, a 3er or a tag in it.
That would renew the team tourney genre.

Sounds good to me

Let's try on details ...
Spring event suggestion:
3+ player teams (5+ recommended unless players have high availabilty) with no restrictions on nationality or ELO.
A clash consists of 3 single player matches (5 games) and 1 TAG (3 games).
Singles count 1 point for the clash win, TAG counts 2.
Single player lineup must be 3 different players, the TAG players can also be nominated for Singles.
      
The Tinman
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 18:02
I would like to see a tourney where all the players are randomly drawn to form the teams each year.

This would give new and lesser players a chance to play with different top players that would not otherwise invite them on their team.

Another option is to take the top however many players needed, and have an open draft of players for the teams each year.

Any thoughts?
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 18:12
i would like to see also something like that.

take the league winners or top10 at a current time

ask them to pick their team mates and play a tournament Smile

      
Qorlas
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 19:06
Wonderful idea!

I agree for the draft
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 20:07
I like the draft, definitely something you.

What about also, having each team sponsoring a rookie, to renew the community and include more players in our tourneys ?
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 20:25
Draft is decent (except I assume people would still pick people they know).

No one plays the different maps much, but it would be interesting to have a team format. Perhaps each round is 7 matches for the 7 different maps. Would have to be fairly big teams, unless maybe each player on a team could play 2 maps/round, then you would only need 4 or 5 on a team.

Tag team sounds fun, but I don't think you would get enough people to play, so adding it to any new tournament would probably limit its success.
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 20:50
define rookie.

ironhorse counts as rookie? Wink ok ok i'll behave now Smile
      
onyx puffin
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 21:56
As one of the organizers of the CL (Champion's League) I could surely like to entertain the idea of a simple rule change to be an adaptation of the current format and number 4 of dea's original post.

2) CL as it is
Team members must be from different countries
4) Play with your friends no matter where they're from
No restrictions as to nationalities, anyone just chooses with whom he wants to play.

So possible way to achieve this would be for Champion's league: "One half of the Team members must be from different countries, and no member of your team can have been on the same Nation's Cup team in the past year."
One of the original thoughts of CL was that it would indeed be different players than a person's nation's cup team, and to encourage people to get to know players form other nations.

Finally let me say I would love to see the idea from Tinman developed: have a tourney where all the players are randomly drawn to form the teams each year.
Work out those details would be great and make it a 6 week tournament in January-February. Random or even drafted new each year by top players would be great! perhaps top rated persons willing to be captain. Don't assume all top players want to be captain, and have the time.
      
Ravage811
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 22:18
+1 for Tinman's post pertaining an open draft.

Another thought that has came to mind. Is a Team multiplayer tournament. I know there is the multi tournament in December, but is it possible to form such an event with teams?

      
mennonite436
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Re:general thoughts on team events Thu, 13 September 2012 23:08
I definitely agree that a fresh tournament should come about soon. As someone said previously, the game can lose it's luster after playing it more than 10,000 times.

With that said, I agree with tin in mixing it up with random teams or possibly having drafts with the top players being captains.

I also always thought the idea of the FED cup was a great idea and I like the thought of combining it with normal 2 player games.

I remember that previously we also had a tournament (only one year I think) where we had unrated games of snake, 8+ tix, draw all open, and others. I think this could be fun to mix things up if teams got together and played opponents in this style.

I realize that the last idea could work for just a small tournament and wouldnt neccessarily have to be one of the big 2.

Just my 2 cents..

Menno
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Fri, 14 September 2012 00:41
Draft would be pretty fun : Having a good night, with top guys picking their partners in the lobby...

Maybe half a draft, half random... otherwise the draft would look like "I picked my friends" and then we have the same teams.

I'd like to see bigger teams up to 5/6 players rather than the 4 of CL.

A tag doesnt necessarily a pain or a cause of disinterest since some players wont be compelled to play.

If Tag is not of interest, maybe there will be a way to integrate of 4er.

More maps is definitely a plus.

[Updated on: Fri, 14 September 2012 01:06]

      
ACP Miguel
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Re:general thoughts on team events Fri, 14 September 2012 10:13
draft rules

u cant pick your NC or CL team members

this way its prevents whoever is picking of taking the same users
      
yaelka
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 15 September 2012 17:49
I don't know whether this is the right place but ....

for future NCs or other team events:

what about starting a thread where all single players who haven't found a team yet can sign up and

... either create a new team - if there are enough from one country

... or show captains who are looking for more players for their team, that they are willing to play


I think there was a thread like that to create teams for first CL!?

... just a proposal ...

yaelka
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 15 September 2012 18:03
Well for NC, it's tricky and can happen only after the national team registration process.

A player can't apply for a TNT before it was made sure he cant be part of a national team.

I think NC has to start later than it used to, closer to the timeline of this year. Too many players are out in August, and we should leave them a possibility to answer pms in September.

However, when the NC player list is released, the thread can be used by potential teams to give updates on their reserch, or on their progress to form a national team. More positive than "We will probably not make it, let's form a TNT".

It would make it way clearer once the TNT process has started.

I'll pick a non-polemical example :


Dutch Team :

Truckerteller = OK
dizz = OK
Patterson = Ok
Mr Bean = OK, unless Ireland merge with UK by then Very Happy
Anabel = no answer to pm yet. But we expect an answer later.
youki = answer pending
Peter de Zeeuw = under debate

With 4 players confirmed, we are shaky at the moment. With 5 players, it looks better but we would rather have a 6th to face any situation.

[Updated on: Sat, 15 September 2012 18:04]

      
dea1
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 15 September 2012 18:26
Back to the question about the format

CL had 12 teams in the last 2 years, 16 in the first.
So if we think about including TAGs or different maps we need to find 12 TAG couples / 12 different map players.
I think, that can be found easily.

What about

1 clash =
- 2 single player matches US (6 games)
- 1 single player match all maps but US (6 games, 1 for each)
- 1 TAG US (3 games)
A player can be in the lineup for TAG and 1 of the single player matches.

------

I don't think random draft is a good idea. Let people play with their friends.
In a format where "special things" (other maps, TAGs, multis) are involved it certainly wouldn't work, as you need to have players for the specialites to form a team.

Whith a format including TAGs I would expect teams to develop around the TAG couples.

------
Thinking about a format including multis.
Aiming at groups with 4 teams (5 or 3 to balance uneven numbers work).

3 weeks to play the clashes as usual for the single matches (say 5 games)
In addition to that 3 multi matches, 1 per week (5 games), where 2 player from each team in the group is nominated together with the lineup for the singles.
Teams can change their multi player each week, but don't need to.
The multi player can be in the lineup for single matches, too.

Tournament would have to consist of a qualifying round robin (4 groups would be best) and a final round robin (as you always need 4 teams+/- to play the multis).
Or maybe 3 stages: Qualifying - Semi with 8 teams in 2 groups - Final for the best 2 of each group.

[Updated on: Sat, 15 September 2012 18:39]

      
yaelka
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 15 September 2012 18:35
Sysyphus AMD schrieb am Sat, 15 September 2012 18:03

Well for NC, it's tricky and can happen only after the national team registration process.

A player can't apply for a TNT before it was made sure he cant be part of a national team.






... seems I didn't express myself well/understandable enough ...

open a thread "players who like to play NC" (not for a TNT)

I can imagine there are quite a few players who would like to play NC but don't dare to ask any team - maybe thinking that they don't play good enough. I, for example was really happy when Kasi asked me two years ago to become a member of TuS ... but I would never have asked myself ...

I could imagine - maybe specially for Germany - there might be enough players to create one more German team ... maybe same for other countries ... - specially now, there's no need to create real big teams ...
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 15 September 2012 22:33
About the format :

Are players really interested to be involved in a tourney including a TAG or all maps (they are 7 now btw Very Happy,) ?

By involved, I don't necessarily mean "playing" but be there to watch teammates, to check results etc...

I like dea's idea, not forcing anyone to play a map they dont want to play.

Though, the pool of players likley to play all maps is quite limited : we had 12 players in the last AAT. We would then need to see some players step up as pluri-specialist to form more teams.

Then, those players should be "labelled" as pluri-specialist to help players to form their teams.

To keep the Draft idea going along with "playing with Friends", teams would be allowed to trade 1 or 2 player with other teams after the draft... Would add some strategy if you need a pluri-specialist, a TAG player or simply a friend !

I really like the Draft thing, because it's a concept really out-of-the-box fun and would add some true spice and strategy.

Miguel rule = "You cant pick a NC partner" is really a good start and would help to keep the CL spirit. CL which is meant I guess to disappear then.

[Updated on: Sat, 15 September 2012 22:36]

      
JenAck
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 15 September 2012 23:49
TAG is nice but whats about the language?
if my teammate dont speak german it would be really crazy to play Laughing
what not means we cant have a lot of fun Cool
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sun, 16 September 2012 00:09
Well Tag teams could draft the players that would form their team.

So that each team would be guaranteed a solid Tag-team, likely to be friends.

If we have 50 players :

Top 10 Tag-teams would pick their teammate among a list of the 30 players remaining. They will need strategy in building their teams, picking pluri-specialist or USA specialist..

3 rounds of draft.
First round : Each of the 10 teams picks a player in the list.
Second Round : same process in a different order to keep balance.

3rd round : same process. If some players are not picked at the end of the draft, they can be claimed by any team. If 2 teams want to claim the same player, that player can then choose his team.

If a player is not picked at all, then I guess he can't play (if you are rejected by 10 teams, then you probably have a problem).

Players that do not sign up in the Draft, can't be added to an incomplete team afterwards.

Each team can be allowed one trade with another team.

[Updated on: Sun, 16 September 2012 00:10]

      
Hecki
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sun, 16 September 2012 01:25
Jasmin, Du bist Schweizerin. Seit wann sprecht Ihr Deutsch? Laughing
      
Lucullupus
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sun, 16 September 2012 04:41
TIC Hecki schrieb am Sun, 16 September 2012 01:25

Jasmin, Du bist Schweizerin. Seit wann sprecht Ihr Deutsch? Laughing


hat was, Hecki! Very Happy
      
JenAck
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sun, 16 September 2012 10:10
AT_Lucullupus schrieb am Sun, 16 September 2012 04:41

TIC Hecki schrieb am Sun, 16 September 2012 01:25

Jasmin, Du bist Schweizerin. Seit wann sprecht Ihr Deutsch? Laughing


hat was, Hecki! Very Happy


ODW UND ODHS!!!!!
http://s7.directupload.net/images/120916/vbw3em96.gif

[Updated on: Sun, 16 September 2012 23:11]

      
onyx puffin
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Re:general thoughts on team events Fri, 02 November 2012 18:10
As the Nation's Cup Round Robin enters the last week, I thought it may be important to look into these thoughts and planning for future events.

I do hope maybe someone will figure out a random teammates tournament as listed below in red, perhaps for January. If so, they need to start organizing now.

As for me, I plan to continue as one of the organizers of the CL (Champion's League) played in (February March) with the following rule change:

"One half of the Team members must be from different countries, and no member of your team can have been on the same Nation's Cup team in the past year."
One of the original thoughts of CL was that it would indeed be different players than a person's Nation's Cup team, and to encourage people to get to know players form other nations.

Finally let me say I would love to see the idea from Tinman developed: have a tourney where all the players are randomly drawn to form the teams each year.
Work out those details would be great and make it a 6 week tournament in January-February. Random or even drafted new each year by top players would be great! perhaps top rated persons willing to be captain. Don't assume all top players want to be captain, and have the time. Find a format where tournament can be completed quickly, like in 6 weeks.
[/quote]
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Fri, 02 November 2012 19:12
Well, i think there's no room for 2 tourneys between january and SPWC starting in April.

We still need to redefine what CL was in another type of tourney.
Needs to be something different from NC, to give a clear identity to that tourney.

a) Teams have to be formed without restrictions of nationalities or ELO.

b) Introduce some other maps like Drake suggested. For instance :
- 1 match bo5 USA 2er, 3 other bo5 on 3 different map. (then the other maps the next week).
- or 2 matches bo5, and 2 other Bo5 on 2 different maps (rotating all the maps through 3 weeks).
- 2/3 matches bo5 Usa and a match bo7 on all the maps.

c) tag can be used as match 5 and tiebreaker for the clash.

d) Team are made up randomly, with an open draft. Can offer a priviledge to tourney winners over the past year to pick the players in their teams.
      
GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:general thoughts on team events Fri, 02 November 2012 20:13
If time is an issue, why not try a double or single elimination tournament set up?

5 players per team.
Each player plays one map or one modified rule game in each round. Or you play a set of different games - not unlike fun tournament. Doesn't matter to me. Could be all standard US 2 person.
Best of 5 games
Winning team in the clash advances in the bracket.

If you do double elim, you simply add a loser's bracket.

Or try this idea on for size:

Teams of 5 players.
Divisions of 5 teams.
Each player is entered into a "Survivor" style tournament (5 person, player finishing last is eliminated, then 4 person, etc). Assign points for finishing 1st 2nd 3rd, etc for each player. Highest points move on to quarters or semis or whatever it is.

Final two teams play 2 sets of Survivor. One set has 3 players from team A and 2 from team B. Other set is reversed. Similar point set up to determine champion with tie break being points scored in games.

WEll, they sounded fun when I thought of them....

Rob
GFF
      
\/\/ill
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 03 November 2012 14:48
My CL ideas... Response to Sysy's post.

a) agree
b) I sort of agree, I think I have a pretty good solution.

I have all of the maps and expansions, but I imagine that quite a lot of players won't and perhaps don't want to spend/or have the money to get them, so playing europe/swiss/asia/US in one match is probably too much. Also, asia is not available on mac without that stupid steam software yet as far as I know.

I'd personally like it to be all USA - real test of skills on the same map. I thought the following could work quite well...

2 x USA, start each
2 x USA 1910, start each
2 x Big Cities, start each
1 x Mega as tiebreaker if 3-3, random start?

c) Tag tiebreaker could be a good idea. Very tough to schedule for a US vs Europe clash though, maybe impossible. I personally don't like mega, but it would be a good tie-breaker in my solution as start is less significant...

d) Disagree with the privilege bit and would rather this tournament wasn't random. CL should be playing with people you want to play with, NC has nationality restrictions. I support the random bit for another tournament but not CL. If you have a random tourney, and a super-strong team are drawn then they're likely to just stay together next year with 'privilege', but the other teams have to split up, seems odd.
      
stemayf
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 03 November 2012 16:02
My turn, re: CL

As the originator of the tourney, I have some strong views as to its format. I may appear as if I'm taking my bat home here, but:

1. More than one player from a single nation - NO. The original CL was designed specifically to be contrary to the NC. No need to reproduce this, otherwise the competitions become too similar.

2. No ELO limit - NO. Without the limit, we get teams with far too great power. The ELO limit acts as a handicapping system for participants. Who wants to play in another team competition where the same teams/players always progress? I'll tell you: only those players. Selfish and elitist, IMO. And perhaps I'm a little selfish too: I wanted to design a competition where the good but not brilliant TTR player had a chance of winning something. I got my wish with G70. I'm sure there are others who also appreciated this opportunity.

3. Increase team size - NO. Again, this is not NC.

4. Different maps/more than 2P matches - NO. Alright, you could argue that since NC is US 2P only, this goes against my argument in #1. But, the US map is by far the most familiar and played map, and therefore is the most accessible to all. As such, it becomes a more attractive competition to more people. Moreover, scheduling for 2P is often difficult enough - scheduling for more players would increase the likelihood of matches not taking place. And if I'm wrong, why do we play SPWC and League (and the QTs when they used to run) all US 2P? It's because that's what the majority of us want.

5. Scrap the format that made the competition Champions League-esque - NO. That was the premise of the tournament. Home and away legs. Seeding and draw in the lobby. Losing these loses the CL essence.

Now, I'm all for change. I like what's been done for the NC this year. It's actually kind of funny - match sizes have been reduced to allow 4v4 matchups, closing in on what the CL is. If you want a multimap, multiplayer side to competition, go for it. But all you'll be doing is making it less inclusive - only for those players who can commit time (money) to playing the different maps and with differing numbers of players. I for one, and I won't be alone here, don't have the time or inclination to play competitively in a range of formats. I'll stick with US 2P, thanks.

Some of the other ideas in this thread are interesting and exciting, and it sounds as if there is a call for a refreshing of tournaments to include new things. Again, I'm all for it, and if appeals to me, I'll play. BUT - if you want a tournament that drastically changes the original concept of the CL, gather your ideas, put to a vote. Make the changes that are requested. Play it in the CL slot. Enjoy your tournament. Just don't call it Champions League.
      
\/\/ill
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sat, 03 November 2012 16:48
Yes steve, I thought the registration for CL was fine as it was, I actually think I agreed to the wrong thing. Keep as it is, you can choose your friends to play with with very little limitation.

One thing I hate about NC now is that you can draw in an individual match. A clash drawing is fine, but individual sucks. I wouldn't want any rule to come into CL that involves players drawing 3-3 etc. That's really taken some fun out of it for me, if I drew against Felix (what number is he playing?!) I wouldn't feel happy, neither would he.

What do you think about my all-US map version? Any good reason it wouldn't work? It's on the map people are familiar with, they know fast routes, good colours etc but the changes in ticket sets adds a little more variation, difficulty and more skill is required to be a 'champion'. It is a less drastic change than for example "US Europe and Swiss". If you want a tournament that, perhaps, allows lesser players to progress, I'd maybe suggest 1910 and big cities gives less advantage to 'elite' players as fewer play these well.

I think a tag match is impossible to implement in a reasonable time-frame. I'd scrap that idea straight away, its not really in-line with CL either. One clash vs America is tough to organise as it is...

Steve is right that it wouldn't be CL with major format/registration changes, but I thought my idea was feasible, interesting and easy for people to understand/implement.

Having had a little more reflection time, I'd slightly adjust my suggestion:

Random first, alternate starts
2 x USA,
2 x USA 1910,
2 x Big Cities,
Final game, person drawing 2nd chooses tickets - USA/1910/Big

[Updated on: Sat, 03 November 2012 16:54]

      
GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:general thoughts on team events Sun, 04 November 2012 01:59
CL
Regarding CL. I just want to make it clear that I like CL the way it is. I appreciate the effort Steve put into it. It's an excellent event.

Regarding my suggestions/thoughts. It was more in response to the idea of a new event.

Best,
Rob
GFF
      
GSV3
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 13:21
My 50 cent about the ELO-system (in general)
As multi player, I know that my rank can change very quickly (in a positive or negative way).
Did already someone think about categories for players?
For instance (do not consider this as the truth, just an example):
Category 1 (*****):
White Train, Schwenn, Kostasss, TennisKasi, Angel6, Truckerteller, Daedin, Rui, ...
Category 2 (****):
Sysyphus, toutoune, Will, Knockando, Patterson, Miguel, ...
Category 3 (***):
stemayf, ommie, Pifbat, Hecki, dea, ...
Category 4 (**):
other players

Then, instead of counting this continiously changing ELO, we should consider the sum of * (or the average?)
For CL, the maximum = 15 (proposal)
Let's try with team ACE (CL 2011)
Kostasss + Tenniskasi + Will + GSV: 5+5+4+3 = 17-> too high
Good combinations:
5+5+3+2
5+4+3+3
4+4+4+3
...



V
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 17:10
Well, like GFF stated, we are just giving ideas to Stemayf.
Stemayf had the initiative to show up with a tourney 3 years ago, it's then ultimately his choice to take those ideas into account or not.
In other words the time slot january - march is reserved for stemayf's tourney.

Honestly, there's no room for a new tourney between NC and SPWC.
That period is already overcrowded : Multi, FUN, and League coming back in January.

Considering stemayf's post, we can maybe narrow our range of ideas and focus on what's feasible :

Team size :

I do agree on that, hard enough to make teams of 4 players.

ELO limit :
I don't think ELO should be used for team tourneys anymore.
ELO shows mainly consistency, even if you play multis it's possible to keep ELO consistenlty high.
GSV's proposal on that regard is more accurate to define the real strength of a player in tourneys, or at least one's perception of that strength. Truck opened a thread about it, only a few people answered unfortunately.

Stemayf was mentioning to be more inclusive.

An open draft would give a chance to some players to team up with players they would never play with.
An open draft would give a chance to any player to participate to that tourney without having the burden to form a team beforehand.
An open draft, using GSV's proposal with players split into different pots (pot 1, Pot 2, Pot 3, pot 4), would fit with the wish of stemayf of building "balanced" teams.
And a draw using pots is very "Champions' League".

Then we would need criteria to define the pots :
1) Organizer's priviledge ? Stemayf and/or onyx designs the pots according to their subjective perception.
2) Larger poll among players that registered.
3) Or point system designed according to the 2012 results in tourneys. (League, CL, SPWC, NC).

On that case, I'd leave that responsibility to stemayf to design pots with his own criteria.


If I'd keep only one idea to revamp slightly the tourney which would respect stemayf's original concept, it's the open draft.




[Updated on: Mon, 05 November 2012 17:12]

      
\/\/ill
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 18:01
Seems a reasonable way of doing it by putting people into categories. Those with big Ego's like Sysy would want to be in category 1 whereas humble me would be happy with category 4 Wink There is a big difference in my, and undoubtedly others', playing styles between casually playing and concentrating during tournaments.

Last year, me Vincent and Kostas all tried to get our ELO's up as much as possible for UKB (managed rank 1, 2 and 3) to make us feared Very Happy Me and K were rank 1&2 2er respectively. I'm probably nowhere even close to that now as I dont take the casual games too seriously, nor am I selecting good-value opponents ie play an average player at 1600 rather than a top one that fell to 1600 in a bad multi run. My ELO is all over the place from multis. A players vote on peoples' classification would be easy to do objectively. I could organize an anonymous online survey type thing really easily and do an average to classify depending on numbers of players. Easy to set up for 50+ people. (48 last year)
      
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 18:29
I'm not fond of the open draft for CL or there isnt a tournament in the calendar other than tag where I can select to play alongside someone from another nation Kostas/Kasi/Vincent...

However, I have been busy calculating... if it were the case...
Based on same number of players, 48, as last year here are your odds:

Odds of me being in your team: 6.38% (Enough for Trucker to not enter!)

48(n)!
---------------
{48-4(r)}! x 4!

Odds of playing in exact same team as last year: 1 in 194,580 or 0.000005%

6210+4230+2162
--------------
97290 (47x46x45)

Odds of playing with one or more person from your last team: 12.95%
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 18:33
SNS Will-Skyfall wrote on Mon, 05 November 2012 10:01



Last year, me Vincent and Kostas all tried to get our ELO's up as much as possible for UKB (managed rank 1, 2 and 3) to make us feared Very Happy Me and K were rank 1&2 2er respectively.


Humble to be in category 4 but worried enough to not be considered as good as you think you are by posting your record once every 2 post ! Razz

That's why Truck's post was not popular, because some people think it'd be offensive to accept peers' perception of their actual strength, or worried to hurt peers' feelings.

People would agree on 80-90% on each other's global opinion. Like I do with GSV's draft, including where I stand, and like I did with all that posted in Truck's thread.


About ELO rankings :

ELO would then a good reflection when you are at the top, but not a good one when you are slightly below your average ? Games are casual when you are around 16 ? and serious only when close to top 10 ?

I do agree with you about the concentration factor during tournaments.
But then explaining that you had a bad multi run to explain your low ELO : doesnt that just mean you are a better 2er player than a multi player ?
Kostas, to whom you also referred, is consistently in top 20 whether he plays multis or 2er, casually or not.

And like i stated above, i think you can be a consistent top 20 by playing mainly multis, casually or seriously.



      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 18:39
SNS Will-Skyfall wrote on Mon, 05 November 2012 10:29

I'm not fond of the open draft for CL or there isnt a tournament in the calendar other than tag where I can select to play alongside someone from another nation Kostas/Kasi/Vincent...




Draft could be made of pairs picking another pairs.

I don't defend any specific options.
I think we can still find balance between random and pre-established so that everybody has a chance to be in a competitive team.
If someone has an idea close to that option, I'd definitely lean towards it.

But if people want to keep CL as it is. Then no need to keep elaborating discussions either !

[Updated on: Mon, 05 November 2012 18:40]

      
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 19:36
Sysyphus AMD wrote on Mon, 05 November 2012 17:33

That's why Truck's post was not popular, because some people think it'd be offensive to accept peers' perception of their actual strength, or worried to hurt peers' feelings.

ELO would then a good reflection when you are at the top, but not a good one when you are slightly below your average ? Games are casual when you are around 16 ? and serious only when close to top 10 ?


It can be done ANONYMOUSLY quite easily where every participant is given an individual link and data is not linked to a user, Universities do this all the time for online surveys and it's free.

With regards to ELO, yes believe it or not. If im say 1700 and rank one is 1800+ I wont be really particular which games/opponents I play. If I have a good run though I would play really slowly, calculated like in a tournament, to get my score to the top. But that's just me. I believe Felix has played the odd multi when his rank is down - by his standards that's not taking things to seriously...

For me, ELO is a bit daft in terms of stopping/allowing player combinations. It's fairly useful for seeding teams perhaps and good fun for the fantasy leagues. It can be manipulated and from one day to the next the team may be eligible/ineligible. I'm saying this as someone who won CL last year and would most prefer to stay with the same team. We'd maybe be split up. But still, categorising players makes more sense and could be done easily.
      
onyx puffin
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Re:general thoughts on team events Mon, 05 November 2012 21:45
As one who organizes with Stemayf the Champions League, let me affirm his notations above about Champion's League. He and I have not even had a good conversation about CL for 2013; but I will say, we think CL is working and working well. So while we may be willing to listen, there are some aspects not open to change.

Now let me explain my comment and question raised in note above: "One half of the Team members must be from different countries, and no member of your team can have been on the same Nation's Cup team in the past year."
One of the original thoughts of CL was that it would indeed be different players than a person's nation's cup team, and to encourage people to get to know players form other nations.

My stating this note was TO CONSIDER A CHANGE to allow for people from perhaps AMD, & BIP to play on the same team OR UEG & TIC or the many other German teams. Obviously Stemayf and I did not discuss that dimension.

NOW concerning ELO limits, as stemayf wrote: 2. No ELO limit - NO. Without the limit, we get teams with far too great power. The ELO limit acts as a handicapping system for participants. Who wants to play in another team competition where the same teams/players always progress? I'll tell you: only those players. Selfish and elitist, IMO. And perhaps I'm a little selfish too: I wanted to design a competition where the good but not brilliant TTR player had a chance of winning something. I got my wish with G70. I'm sure there are others who also appreciated this opportunity.
Obviously, we will need to discuss how this will work out, since ELO is strange rating since DoW changed the system in people's start level. So we appreciate hearing thoughts about creative possibilities, but not sure some voting system would work either.

FINALLY, I do hope someone comes forward with a format for random teammates in a different NEW tournament. And hopefully can find a time frame for such a tournament

[Updated on: Mon, 05 November 2012 21:55]

      
DrakeStorm
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Re:general thoughts on team events Tue, 06 November 2012 05:02
Not related to CL at all.

Ideas for Team events:

1.) 2P USA where everyone on a team can help (i.e. via skype, in person, etc.). Was just thinking about this when watching NC matches and thinking, if only they saw what I see, they could have won that game, etc. Sure maybe White Train wouldn't need anyone on his team, and games would take longer since teams would be discussing moves. Not sure all the details, but something that might be interesting to try.

2.) Something similar to the NC, but instead of 4x 2P USA matches, you have 2x 2P USA matches, 1x 2P Other Maps, 1x Multi USA. There would be a RR and the top 4 teams would advance to another RR (need 4 teams so 1 person from each team could play multi).

3.) Somthing similar to #2 above, but add a tactical portion to the pairings. No idea on the details, but an example would be - each Team plays the other team twice, and for each match up one team gets to assign who plays who and on what map(s).

4.) This bizarre thought just popped into my head - What about some weird format that is like the card game War. You split everyone into 2 Teams, and you are doing matches, and if you lose you end up on the other team, and the event ends when 1 team has all the players on it. And the rule is everyone has to play once before they play again (i.e. like when you run out of cards and shuffle the deck), so you can't have White Train play every game for one Team (unless he is last person on the team!).

5.) More thoughts later.
      
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