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Achtung Panzer
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House rules for the 88mm? Sun, 25 January 2009 20:55
A few posts back I asked about any special rules for the DAK. I think a special feature of this famous unit was the 88mm anti-tank gun which made its fearsome reputation in the desert campaigns. I've come across several rules for its use including:

3,3,3,3
4,4,4 against armour; 2,2,2 against infantry
3,3,3,2,1

However all seem to agree on the need for a Line Of Sight.

Thoughts on consistency?

      
yangtze
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Sun, 25 January 2009 21:04
Agree entirely that an 88 unit should have LOS to be effective.

This is essentially an AA gun, the AA optics being the thing that allowed it greater range and accuracy, and the (greater) ability to fire at moving targets.

I'd go 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with battlestars counting as hits, and
3-2-1 against infantry with LOS and with battlestars as misses.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Sun, 25 January 2009 21:22
yangtze wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 20:04


I'd go 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with battlestars counting as hits, and
3-2-1 against infantry with LOS and with battlestars as misses.


So you'd give it the same range as normal artillery? I guess that in desert games you may be able to get 6 hexes with a clear LoS but this would be less common in the Italy and NW Europe scenarios.

Would using 4 dice at 1 hex range (i.e. 4,3,2,2,1,1) be too powerful? Rolling Eyes


      
yangtze
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Sun, 25 January 2009 22:10
Yes, when you think that tanks fire 3 hexes without penalty, and the most common range for tank fire was 500m in western Europe, 6 hex range for the 88 isn't unreasonable. As you say, in non-desert battles you'd struggle getting 6 hexes LOS anyway.

4 dice with battlestars? Why not - you'd just have to set up the scenario carefully so it didn't result in a walkover for the axis every game Smile
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Mon, 26 January 2009 18:38
yangtze wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 20:04


I'd go 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with battlestars counting as hits.


Same for firing on artillery?

      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Mon, 26 January 2009 19:05
I don't think so...
Artillery is harder to hit...
      
rasmussen81
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Mon, 26 January 2009 19:17
Achtung Panzer wrote on Mon, 26 January 2009 09:38

yangtze wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 20:04


I'd go 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with battlestars counting as hits.


Same for firing on artillery?




I would think that an 88 firing on artillery wouldn't have any particular advantage. I would say the Allied artillery should still only be hit by grenades, but that's just me. Smile
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Mon, 26 January 2009 20:35
Thanks to all I think I now have a very workable house rule for the "mighty 88"! Very Happy

* 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with stars counting as hits
* 3-2-1 against infantry with LOS and with stars as misses
* 3-2-1 against artillery with LOS and grenades only counting as hits

Along with the previous "British Lion" and amended "Stiff Upper Lip" and the existing rules for the Italians, my desert games are now taking on a very special feel.

[Updated on: Mon, 26 January 2009 20:42]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Mon, 26 January 2009 20:52
Achtung Panzer wrote on Mon, 26 January 2009 11:35

Thanks to all I think I now have a very workable house rule for the "mighty 88"! Very Happy

* 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with stars counting as hits
* 3-2-1 against infantry with LOS and with stars as misses
* 3-2-1 against artillery with LOS and grenades only counting as hits

Along with the previous "British Lion" and amended "Stiff Upper Lip" and the existing rules for the Italians, my desert games are now taking on a very special feel.




Sounds great! Have you tested them to see how the rules play out? Let us know how they work!
      
5 star general
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Mon, 26 January 2009 23:08
Would the 88s move the same as artillery?
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 27 January 2009 20:08
Personnally, I use them as fast artillery :
Move 1 and fire or
Move 2
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 27 January 2009 21:32
Hawkmoon von Köln wrote on Tue, 27 January 2009 19:08

Personnally, I use them as fast artillery :
Move 1 and fire or
Move 2


I'm sure there's evidence of the 88s sometimes being used with their wheels still attached to the cruciform frame to allow a quick retreat / redeployment. Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Tue, 27 January 2009 21:33]

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 27 January 2009 21:39
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 26 January 2009 19:52

Achtung Panzer wrote on Mon, 26 January 2009 11:35

Thanks to all I think I now have a very workable house rule for the "mighty 88"! Very Happy

* 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with stars counting as hits
* 3-2-1 against infantry with LOS and with stars as misses
* 3-2-1 against artillery with LOS and grenades only counting as hits

Along with the previous "British Lion" and amended "Stiff Upper Lip" and the existing rules for the Italians, my desert games are now taking on a very special feel.




Sounds great! Have you tested them to see how the rules play out? Let us know how they work!


I first started this thread after playing the Totensonntag game where, interestingly, the allied tanks kept well clear of the 88s! I will now play using the new rules suggested above and place an AAR.


      
RonB
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Wed, 28 January 2009 14:40
When the 88 was used on its wheels, it's accuracy dropped dramatically due to instability, even with the jacks deployed. Also, it was more difficult to serve as everything such as sights, shells trays, etc, were so far off the ground, so the rate of fire dropped as well. It was a big, heavy gun that took quite awhile to set up. I'd treat it as normal artillery as far as moving/firing. One or the other, but not both.
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Wed, 28 January 2009 14:58
You're right, RonB...
Perhaps not count the stars when gun had moved...
Becomes to be complicated...
Greetings from Le Mans Cool
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Wed, 28 January 2009 21:07
RonB wrote on Wed, 28 January 2009 13:40

I'd treat it as normal artillery as far as moving/firing. One or the other, but not both.


Yes that's sounds right and that's what I'll do. Thanks for the insight and comments. Smile

      
SirKirby
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Wed, 25 February 2009 22:47
As suggested in this other thread, I think giving the 88mm the ability to "ambush" would make a considerable difference to its power on the battlefield:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=16496&start=0

My suggestion would be that when an enemy tank unit came within 2 hexes of an 88mm, the 88mm would get to fire.

Include just one such unit; allow it to "ambush" only once per turn; have your Allied units make the best possible use of any available cover, and it wouldn't necessarily become all-powerful.

Besides, it's just unrealistic to have Shermans trundle across 2000m of open terrain and overrun such a powerful weapon.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Thu, 26 February 2009 17:29
SirKirby wrote on Wed, 25 February 2009 21:47

As suggested in this other thread, I think giving the 88mm the ability to "ambush" would make a considerable difference to its power on the battlefield:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=16496&start=0

My suggestion would be that when an enemy tank unit came within 2 hexes of an 88mm, the 88mm would get to fire.

Include just one such unit; allow it to "ambush" only once per turn; have your Allied units make the best possible use of any available cover, and it wouldn't necessarily become all-powerful.

Besides, it's just unrealistic to have Shermans trundle across 2000m of open terrain and overrun such a powerful weapon.



Remeber though that the above suggested house rule for 88mm includes an extended range of 3-3-2-2-1-1 against armour with a LOS, with stars counting as hits. Desert terrain would normally mean a LOS is possible. This might keep the Shermans at arm's length. Rolling Eyes

      
PanzerRunes
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 03 March 2009 04:12
The 88 would fall into a new category I devised for the Betio (Pacific Theater) scenario I created.

AAA artillery and armor start the game in AAA or ground mode.
Place a battle star next to it to show it is in AAA mode.
The unit must be ordered to change modes and may not attack on the same turn it changes modes.

AAA units in ground mode will attack ground units at 2-2-2
In air mode it adds one die to an aircrafts air check roll if with in three hexes.

AAA artilery moves one or attacks
AAA armor moves 2 or attacks

I have been mulling over the 88 for the Stalingrad scenarios I am working on.

The 88 is a different beast. It will likely have stats of 3-3-3-3 against armor and truck units and 2-2-2-2 against infantry.

Because Pak36 units were produced instead of 88's or 105mm howitzers for the base M'44 sets I've been using 88's from TOI's Days of the Fox and 105mm from Perrin. GFI Minifig also has a 88 that looks nice. The aesthtics are nice on the game board.

Regarding camo and ambushing Brummbar has a "cambush" variant that works very nicely... Check his site out.
http://www.brummbar44.com/tag/haus-rules/
      
50th
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Wed, 06 February 2013 20:13
Below is from a post I made today on BGG about EP house rules:

In the Equipment Pack, these fire at a shorter range than standard artillery. In reality, a Flak 18 had an effective range of 48,600 feet when fired at a ground target. A M-101 Howitzer had a maximum range of 36,960 feet. The 88 definitely had a longer range than the M-101 Howitzer!
Although it was much shorter than the 77,616 maximum range of the long tom! So I use the battle dice rolls of 4,3,3,2,2,1,1 instead of the range of 4 at two dice of the "official" rules.

I use 4 for the close assault, because these guns were deadly at any range, I figured a target at point blank would be easier to hit.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Fri, 08 February 2013 21:24
50th wrote on Wed, 06 February 2013 19:13

In the Equipment Pack, these fire at a shorter range than standard artillery.


Do you think that's because of the LOS rule? The 88mm wouldn't fire 'blind' like a larger field piece. A 6 hex LOS may be impractical in anything other than a desert scenario.
      
50th
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Sun, 10 February 2013 16:07
Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 08 February 2013 14:24

50th wrote on Wed, 06 February 2013 19:13

In the Equipment Pack, these fire at a shorter range than standard artillery.


Do you think that's because of the LOS rule? The 88mm wouldn't fire 'blind' like a larger field piece. A 6 hex LOS may be impractical in anything other than a desert scenario.



It could be, but why not give it it's due when it has LOS? There have been other scenarios where an 88 has had clear line of sight out to five hexes, it should be able to shoot in that situation.

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 12 February 2013 09:58
I see your point.
      
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 12 February 2013 10:49
50th wrote on Wed, 06 February 2013 23:13

Below is from a post I made today on BGG about EP house rules:

In the Equipment Pack, these fire at a shorter range than standard artillery. In reality, a Flak 18 had an effective range of 48,600 feet when fired at a ground target. A M-101 Howitzer had a maximum range of 36,960 feet. The 88 definitely had a longer range than the M-101 Howitzer!
Although it was much shorter than the 77,616 maximum range of the long tom! So I use the battle dice rolls of 4,3,3,2,2,1,1 instead of the range of 4 at two dice of the "official" rules.

I use 4 for the close assault, because these guns were deadly at any range, I figured a target at point blank would be easier to hit.



The issue you'll run into is that for Memoir '44, the 88 will be almost unstopable. If they're in a Bunker, you can forget about taking them out!

Giving them extra hexes of range isn't as big a change as giving them more dice of damage. I understand that they were powerful guns, but they can still only be hit with Grenades...so if they're in cover, Infantry will only be able to roll 2 dice while the 88 will attack with 4 dice every time!! I would love to have a weapon like that on my side but I don't think it would be much fun as a game. Smile

Of course if it works for you, go for it. I would just worry that it makes the 88 too powerful and too hard to kill.
      
50th
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 12 February 2013 11:30
I see your point, however just because you roll four dice at close range, doesn't mean that it will take out an infantry unit every time. This is where concentration of firepower reigns. I mainly think they should get their longer range. I don't always use house rules, but sometimes it can make a historical scenario more historical or more accurate!

      
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 12 February 2013 14:58
50th wrote on Tue, 12 February 2013 14:30

I see your point, however just because you roll four dice at close range, doesn't mean that it will take out an infantry unit every time. This is where concentration of firepower reigns. I mainly think they should get their longer range. I don't always use house rules, but sometimes it can make a historical scenario more historical or more accurate!


Imagine an 88 (with this house rule) in a Bunker or behind Sandbags! No chance of retreat and units trying to pick away at the Artillery while they get hammered with 4 dice every turn. Then imagine when you play TFH or another card that gives an extra die...5 dice against close units.

No matter the concentrated firepower, the player with the 88 will win simply because it will take so many units, and so many casualties to take them out. Add that to increased range and the 88 will control the board if there's any LOS.

I don't mind the idea of added range, but I think there's a good reason that no units in the game roll 4 dice every time they attack. Cool
      
Quit2
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Tue, 12 February 2013 15:13
there are two things to consider when designing new units or house rules for this game.

Historical accuracy
Game mechanics

Too much of one and too little of the other will always be bad.

Also, when you design a new rule/unit, ask yourself two things:
How much fun will I have playing with this new unit/rule?
How much fun will I have when my opponent gets this new unit/rule advantage?
      
Phread
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Wed, 13 February 2013 08:28
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 13 February 2013 02:58


I don't mind the idea of added range, but I think there's a good reason that no units in the game roll 4 dice every time they attack. Cool


Full strength Japanese infantry can roll 4 on every attack, 5 with TFH, BEL, or Close Assault.

That's why many players always wound them ASAP.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:House rules for the 88mm? Wed, 13 February 2013 09:34
Phread wrote on Wed, 13 February 2013 11:28

rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 13 February 2013 02:58


I don't mind the idea of added range, but I think there's a good reason that no units in the game roll 4 dice every time they attack. Cool


Full strength Japanese infantry can roll 4 on every attack, 5 with TFH, BEL, or Close Assault.

That's why many players always wound them ASAP.


You just proved my point...there are no units that get to attack with 4 dice every time. Full strength Japanese Infantry are dangerous, but all you need is one hit and they are no longer as big a threat. They do not get to roll 4 dice every time because, like you said, many players wound them ASAP.

The 88 would get to keep rolling 4 dice every time until they are eliminated. That's a very powerful ability for a unit that's so hard to kill! Rolling Eyes
      
    
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