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Fred the Obscure
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Winter rules Sun, 25 November 2012 13:20
Greetings All,

i was playing Breakthrough - Nach Mockau yesterday and was having some thoughts about the effects of Winter on the combatants.

The background to the scenario states the temperature fell
to -40 C, and tank tracks are solderred into the frozen mud.

I live in Durban, South Africa - I think 15C is getting chilly, never mind -40c!

The "General Winter" rule of Axis rolling two dice and removing a unit for each granade made sense, although it didn't have an impact on our game. Units were lost, never an entire unit, and from units on the back lione.

It was the Special rule - Blitz rules in effect that seemed odd. i.e. Allied (Russian ) armour move two hexes, Axis no effect. Doesn't seem correct somehow in the context of the conditions.
I understand Blitz rules in the context of the Blitz effect, giving the German armour more movement againt Allied opposition - not at the Gates of Moscow though.

So the Blitz rules didn't reflect what was happening on the ground, and "General Winter" didn't have that much effect.

Anybody with any Winter type house rules that they use to replicate the German experiance?

Thanks,

Fred the Obscure,
Durban, South Africa.




      
JFKoski
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Re:Winter rules Tue, 27 November 2012 19:50
Winter Wars has 3 rules that you usually use together, but you can separate them.

Winter Weather: Tanks move 2 (unless on roads, etc.). Roll 1d for Air Power on both sides.

Winter Combat: Draw 2 Winter cards at the start, draw a Winter card when you use a Recon to draw cards.

Reduced Visibility: tank and infantry symbols DO NOT count as hits unless you are in close combat (except Barrage).

I don't like the last one very much; last time we didn't roll any grenades while distance shooting. Firefight is now lame, as well as artillery. It's too bad they didn't include another Close Assault card to add to the deck for winter scenarios, plus an Air Power to reflect the new rule (see above).
      
50th
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Re:Winter rules Tue, 27 November 2012 22:10
I like Rasmussen's weather chart more than reduced weather rules. I use it instead of the weather rules whenever I play a winter scenario that says winter rules are in effect. It is available as a chart on his user page!

      
Moomer
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Re:Winter rules Wed, 28 November 2012 00:24
Played a competition once with only Battle of the Bulge scenarios.
The extra rule there was often : FOG

Visibility throughout the game limited to one or two hexes.
All dicerolls as normal. This simulated an enemy creeping nearer and nearer until the fight broke loose. Shocked

I wouldn't use Blitz rules for battles during or past autumn in Russia. All got stuck in the mud on the Russian dirt roads, hence the Blitz effect wasn't quite there anymore. For some battles I would consider a limit on movement for all units.
Perhaps even a diceroll which could give the outcome of "Stuck in the mud" for all mechanized units given a movement order.

Then you have the option :
stuck for the rest of the game Sad
stuck for a fixed number of turns Confused
roll dice to determine stuck/moving Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Wed, 28 November 2012 00:34]

      
JFKoski
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Re:Winter rules Wed, 28 November 2012 17:28
I slept on your comment. I think I like the idea of normal visibility 1-2 spaces, then reduced visibility (only grenades hit) for 3+ spaces.

PS: I'm afraid I don't play often enough to test out new rules. I do have a couple variants ahead on my list: Suomussalmi w/Winter cards, and Red Barricades w/Urban cards.

[Updated on: Thu, 29 November 2012 05:01]

      
JFKoski
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Re:Winter rules Fri, 02 August 2013 04:06
I did try one side of Red Barricades with 3 extra Recon cards, Urban Combat Cards and no Blitz (but Armor moved 0-2) and it was fun.

Suomussalmi (and other winter board-scenarios) was OK with just Winter Combat Cards (I guess we could have done Winter Weather - tanks move 2, but I dislike Reduced Visibility.)

I've still got a few more scenarios with Winter Cards to play, but they're not top on my list.

=======

I played Raid on Barce again today where all UK units are Patrol Cars, which require a re-roll of all hits to get a grenade. This makes the game even more luck-dependent.

While contemplating this game, I thought of the odds of getting a hit on 1 die:
Patrol Car 1/12 = 8% (inf hits * re-rolls),
Patrol Car no retreat 1/9 = 11%,
Artillery 1/6 = 16% (grenade),
Armor 1/3 = 33% (arm+grenade),
Infantry 1/2 = 50% (inf+grenade),
Infantry no retreat 4/6 = 67% (inf+grenade+flag),
and no retreats for others: look down 1 row.

A 1/6 hit rate is fine for artillery. It's a trade-off on whether to target a tough unit you think can hurt you, or go for an easier target. I might attack artillery that can't retreat with Barrage or Allied Air Power, if I'm able to follow-up when I get 1 hit.

=======
I've been upset with Reduced Visibility from the beginning: units not in close combat are hit by a grenade only (sometimes a star by Tank Destroyers or Maching Guns).
http://cdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_action_27.jpg
I kept thinking move it up 1 so you have to do tank hits on inf and grenades on armor and artillery, but I didn't like that. Well, I had a brainwave today. Maybe we should use a 4-sided die when attacking inf (and arm?) with RV not in a close combat:
1/4 = 25%.



This might still have the problem that odds of hitting a tank and artillery will be the same, but that's not too bad.
Roll d6 vs artillery (1/6)
Roll d6 vs armor (1/6)
Roll d4 vs infantry (1/4)
Roll d6 AP/TD vs armor (1/3) and Air Power vs artillery
Roll d6 AP/MG vs infantry (1/3)

Thoughts?

=======

I have another problem with a winter card: Frozen Ground, which gives +1 to movement. Letting armor move 3 again (limit 2 with Winter Weather) is fine. An extra move to infantry is OK. It's when you add that to road movement and/or Infantry Assault that it seems outrageous. Some people don't like BEL. It seems too much to Move a section full of infantry 3 and battle.

http://cdn0.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_compendium_winter_3.jpg
IMHO it's OK to move +1 over a frozen field, but it doesn't make sense to move +1 over a frozen road. I think the card(s) should have said,
"Up to 3 ordered units receive the +1 road movement bonus whether or not they use a road."
So +1 Frozen Ground and +1 Road movement bonuses won't combine.

Thoughts?



[Updated on: Sun, 11 August 2013 21:52]

      
Aussie_Digger
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Re:Winter rules Fri, 02 August 2013 09:03
Fred the Obscure wrote on Sun, 25 November 2012 21:50


It was the Special rule - Blitz rules in effect that seemed odd. i.e. Allied (Russian ) armour move two hexes, Axis no effect. Doesn't seem correct somehow in the context of the conditions.
I understand Blitz rules in the context of the Blitz effect, giving the German armour more movement againt Allied opposition - not at the Gates of Moscow though.

So the Blitz rules didn't reflect what was happening on the ground, and "General Winter" didn't have that much effect.

Anybody with any Winter type house rules that they use to replicate the German experiance?

Thanks,

Fred the Obscure,
Durban, South Africa.






Just to keeps things simple and more historical I would just switch the blitz rule around so that the russians don't suffer the movement restrictions but the germans do. I mean the russians had anti freez for their tanks and their T-34's had wider tracks to make going through snow and mud some what easier than the Germans, also alot of units that were use to hard weather were transfered to the defence of moscow by the russians.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Winter rules Fri, 02 August 2013 11:07
Aussie_Digger wrote on Fri, 02 August 2013 09:03

Fred the Obscure wrote on Sun, 25 November 2012 21:50


It was the Special rule - Blitz rules in effect that seemed odd. i.e. Allied (Russian ) armour move two hexes, Axis no effect. Doesn't seem correct somehow in the context of the conditions.
I understand Blitz rules in the context of the Blitz effect, giving the German armour more movement againt Allied opposition - not at the Gates of Moscow though.

So the Blitz rules didn't reflect what was happening on the ground, and "General Winter" didn't have that much effect.

Anybody with any Winter type house rules that they use to replicate the German experiance?

Thanks,

Fred the Obscure,
Durban, South Africa.






Just to keeps things simple and more historical I would just switch the blitz rule around so that the russians don't suffer the movement restrictions but the germans do. I mean the russians had anti freez for their tanks and their T-34's had wider tracks to make going through snow and mud some what easier than the Germans, also alot of units that were use to hard weather were transfered to the defence of moscow by the russians.



It would be interesting to see if the battle indeed is more historicaly correct on how you play it this way.
Maybe you can put some numbers on the outcome?
J.
      
JFKoski
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Re:Winter rules Sun, 11 August 2013 21:50
I played again with Patrol Cars.

Another option for modifying Reduced Visibility would be to keep grenades as hits, but then re-roll inf- and arm-symbol hits. Each grenade that shows up on the re-roll would be a hit.
      
50th
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Re:Winter rules Tue, 13 August 2013 16:28
I still prefer using the night/day chart from PT for weather (as per Rasmuessen's weather rules)

I like the idea that the weather can get better or worse!
      
    
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