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jdrommel
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New Ovelord scenario Thu, 15 August 2013 23:23
Hello,

This is a new Overlord scenario : Klisura Pass.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/editor/view/?id=13657

This scenario has the characteristic to use the new Italian Royal Army rules with Italian High Command rules.
As there is no official rules for an Overlord scenario, I suggest the following home rule I used to test this scenario :
The Italian player begins the game with 10 cards.
In accordance with Italian High Command rules, he lost one card for each unit destroyed, but never go below three cards. But iaw the Overlord rules, he can regain cards during the game (only one card played and two cards regained).

So this system has the advantage to mix the two rules (Italian High Command and Overlord rules), giving some penalties to the Italian player but not insuring a total Italian defeat.

I repeat, it's only a home rule, but iaw the tests made, it seems to be the most accurate rule for Overlord scenario.

Yours, Smile
Jdrommel.
      
Antoi
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Thu, 15 August 2013 23:28
Looks great!
Thanks again for you effort en mostly: your creativity.

So this overlord scenario will play like the Market Garden overlord right? The allies also lose and gain command cards there.

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2013 11:47]

      
Sgt Storm
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Fri, 16 August 2013 00:10
Very nice. Good scenario for the summer. I already feel cooler.

Thanks so much.
      
JFKoski
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Fri, 16 August 2013 05:17
Thank you very much. I look forward to playing it on Vassal.
      
Almilcar
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Fri, 16 August 2013 09:32
Thanks again, Jacques.

You are an endless creator! Very Happy
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Fri, 16 August 2013 15:07
Very interesting and unusual scenario - thanks Jacques

[Updated on: Fri, 16 August 2013 15:08]

      
JFKoski
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Sat, 17 August 2013 18:10
Gonzalan & I started our first game of this scenario last night.

We had to figure out how to play Italian High Command Rules with OL. The Capture HQ rules (not used for this scenario) say the player who loses their HQ randomly discards a card, which could happen in Rzhev OL. Then they could draw it back upon taking it back.

The Italian rules say discard after a unit loss but not below 3 cards. I've always presumed that unlike Capture HQ, the Italians don't draw back card(s) at end of turn, and their hand size is permanently reduced.

In the case of an Ambush-kill, we realized that we shouldn't discard a card if they are only holding 3 after their C-C play, but they wouldn't draw since their hand size is down to 3.

So in our first game, when the Italians lost a unit, we reduced their hand size by one.

On Round 5, the Italians had 6 cards, but a hand-size of 7. Upon a loss, their hand size reduced to 6, and we had to decide whether to discard a card. I changed my mind and chose to discard since the rule says to (and doesn't mention hand-size).

After Round 6, Italians are up 8-6. His hand size is 6, but he only has 3 cards. (I have 2 lone-fig inf and he could kill a full inf on his Left, so they still have a chance to score 4 kills, before I score 6). He played TFH 2x & Recons 2x, so it's unit loss that has been hurting his hand, not playing 3 cards per turn. I declared I'd be playing TFH (my 2nd too- an unusual game), so Greeks will be holding 10 cards at end of turn.

Maybe in future games, we'll just discard when cards exceed hand-size since in OL your cards fall below hand size, normally?

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2013 18:40]

      
sam1812
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Sun, 18 August 2013 03:55
From the Equipment Pack rule book, page 10: "Each time a unit is lost, one Italian player's Command card is selected at random by his opponent and discarded. However the number of Command cards held by the Italian player cannot be reduced below three."

Seems pretty clear to me: During the Allies' turn, the moment Axis loses a unit, spread your cards out face-down, and the opponent discards one. If Axis loses a unit during his own turn during an Ambush, a card is taken from his hand, but he does draw a new card at the end of the turn.

The one thing that might be questionable is, if Axis had four cards before his turn and played one, he's now holding three; if he gets Ambushed and loses a unit, does he lose a card? Taking literally "the number of Command cards held by the Italian player cannot be reduced below three," I would tend to think he doesn't lose a card in that case.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Sun, 18 August 2013 07:18
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 18 August 2013 05:55

From the Equipment Pack rule book, page 10: "Each time a unit is lost, one Italian player's Command card is selected at random by his opponent and discarded. However the number of Command cards held by the Italian player cannot be reduced below three."

Seems pretty clear to me: During the Allies' turn, the moment Axis loses a unit, spread your cards out face-down, and the opponent discards one. If Axis loses a unit during his own turn during an Ambush, a card is taken from his hand, but he does draw a new card at the end of the turn.

The one thing that might be questionable is, if Axis had four cards before his turn and played one, he's now holding three; if he gets Ambushed and loses a unit, does he lose a card? Taking literally "the number of Command cards held by the Italian player cannot be reduced below three," I would tend to think he doesn't lose a card in that case.


I agree with Sam, and would agree that since he cannot be reduced below three, he would not lose a card.
      
JFKoski
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Sun, 18 August 2013 08:16
I looked over the Operation Market Garden rules about one side discarding a card while the other draws one from the deck. I haven't played it. The rules seem to say that the min and max cards don't change. So apparently, after the Allies lost a card (not dropping them below 2), they could play just a Recon, and draw 3 back as long as they don't exceed 13. I'm curious now what happens when Allies get knocked down to 2 cards. Can they still play 1 (as required by OL rules), or does the not-below-2 rule mean they don't get to play a card this turn?

I digress...
jdrommel wrote on Thu, 15 August 2013 17:23

...In accordance with Italian High Command rules, he lost one card for each unit destroyed, but never go below three cards. But iaw[in accordance with] the Overlord rules, he can regain cards during the game (only one card played and two cards regained).

So this system has the advantage to mix the two rules (Italian High Command and Overlord rules), giving some penalties to the Italian player but not insuring a total Italian defeat....



The point of Italian High Command in a regular game is for them to start at 6 cards and drop as they lose units, and there's no way for them to draw 2 in any turn, so card loss reduces hand size.

We figured out while playing a lot of scenarios and adding Italian High Command, that a loss on Italian turn (from Ambush, Battle-Back, minefield, frozen river) does not discard a card after Italians played their fourth card leaving them with 3 in hand, because that would drop them to 2.

With regard to OL, if you say max hand size is 10 here (and isn't reduced), it's possible Italians could play only 1 Recon a few turns in a row to build their hand back up after a loss.

*****
We finished our game - Italians squeaked out a win on 3 cards, 12-11 (I failed to kill a lone-fig baseline inf on 2d). Having 3 Italian TFH (and 2 Greek) meant the game was exceptional, allowing us to play 1 card & draw 2.

So I think I've changed my mind regarding max hand-size dropping, and just go with discards and card-draws to bring it back. It's hard to test long-games like OL or 12-medal BT, but I'm hoping to get 6 games in. It's possible that Italians might need a starting hand of 12 cards instead of 10, but we'll see.

[Updated on: Sun, 18 August 2013 08:24]

      
JFKoski
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Mon, 19 August 2013 06:28
Got my 2nd game in today. I was up 11-6, (and had a chance to win with Ambush if I'd rolled 2h/2d) but saw the Greeks come back to win it. I could have had another turn, but forgot to move my inf into the medal-church (played Probe: moved 1 but didn't move the 2nd) so he grabbed it with BEL and went from 9 to 12 medals.

======
My opponent noticed something when we were setting up. A bridge is adjacent to frozen river hexes: two going under it (A & B), and one splitting off from the fork (C). The FAQ says you cannot move from a river, frozen river or fordable stream hex onto a bridge hex and vice-versa. We played it as FAQ states. But I don't think it was meant to include river hexes where the river doesn't head under the bridge (C).
http://m44sed.wikispaces.com/file/view/Bridge_Fork.png/445420404/Bridge_Fork.png
I don't see an unclassified official scenario that has this situation, is there a classified one? (Including if C was on a fordable stream or unconnected passable river, or pontoon rules could set it up.)

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2013 07:06]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Mon, 19 August 2013 08:40
JFKoski wrote on Mon, 19 August 2013 08:28

Got my 2nd game in today. I was up 11-6, (and had a chance to win with Ambush if I'd rolled 2h/2d) but saw the Greeks come back to win it. I could have had another turn, but forgot to move my inf into the medal-church (played Probe: moved 1 but didn't move the 2nd) so he grabbed it with BEL and went from 9 to 12 medals.

======
My opponent noticed something when we were setting up. A bridge is adjacent to frozen river hexes: two going under it (A & B), and one splitting off from the fork (C). The FAQ says you cannot move from a river, frozen river or fordable stream hex onto a bridge hex and vice-versa. We played it as FAQ states. But I don't think it was meant to include river hexes where the river doesn't head under the bridge (C).
http://m44sed.wikispaces.com/file/view/Bridge_Fork.png/445420404/Bridge_Fork.png
I don't see an unclassified official scenario that has this situation, is there a classified one? (Including if C was on a fordable stream or unconnected passable river, or pontoon rules could set it up.)




As far as I know, you're right that there aren't any Official scenario where this situation comes up. As such, we won't ever get an official ruling on it, but personally I would allow a unit to move from hex C onto the Bridge because like you said, the ruling is to prevent people from climbing from a Frozen River onto the Bridge that covers it.
      
JFKoski
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Sun, 25 August 2013 07:22
I got a response from jdrommel on this situation:
jdrommel wrote on Mon, 19 August 2013 16:00

...
About the bridge and the river C, for me it is not a problem, it's just a question of good sense: the exit of the bridge is ground and not river as in real life. River c is different than river a and river b in your example, there is ground between river c and the bridge.

It means that a unit can cross the river c, take ground and then cross the bridge. [Don't] need a special rule for that.


      
JFKoski
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Mon, 18 November 2013 01:25
I finally got back to this scenario yesterday when Gonzalan and The Railrodder and I showed up on Vassal at the same time, so we decided to do this 2-on-1 (soon 2-on-2), as co-op.

Co-op means the 2 on a side CAN discuss cards, orders, moves and battles any time. Gonzalan held the cards and The Railrodder did most of the tactical work. Sam_E/Sam1812 showed up on Round 2, so he joined my side and handled the tactical battles. He played a little differently than I would have, but it resulted in at least one early kill, so that was fine. We adjourned for the day about Round 4, then all met back to finish it today through Round 14 (28th Turn).

Our Italians opened with a Barrage-hit on the Big Gun, and since Air Power is replaced by Barrage, was hoping for another. Manwhile the Big Gun just couldn't score a hit, so we didn't have to worry about Target Markers. The Frozen River was mostly a dud too, but I wish it hadn't taken 1 hit on our precious tanks. We got aggressive on the Italian Right and Center and finally did get our 2nd Barrage to kill it and his remaining units fled the Center Sections. Like another game, Italians led 10-6, but getting the last two would prove difficult.

The Greeks started coming back on Round 11, by getting a Barrage-kill on our last 2-fig tank. Italians were down to 3 cards so we didn't have to lose another. Greeks' hand was down too, so that wasn't a major disadvantage. Still, the Greeks had some space and terrain to hide their lone-fig inf, while they advanced Greek artillery to be in range of our lone-fig inf. Greeks finally took the lead again 11-10. Assault-Center allowed us to cover the church medal in case of BEL (learn from mistakes!) and TFH scored our 2 kills on our Left (Greek's Right) including 3 hits/3 dice for the win.

Our opponents didn't say anything, but they must have been tired of us playing Their Finest Hour. We played 6(!) to their 1 and none were Counter-Attacks! We never had both in our hand at the same time either. At least one turn we played it even though we weren't set up for it, because of the fear of losing it to a kill-discard. Another turn we deliberately went down to 1 card so when we drew 2, they couldn't take it from a kill.

All 3 of my games ended 12-11.
      
sam1812
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Re:New Ovelord scenario Mon, 18 November 2013 03:13
I've got to say, playing the Italians is enough of a challenge when they start at 6 cards and go down to 3. in Overlord, going down from 10 cards to 3 is a huge challenge, especially when the opponent still has 8! All those TFH turns definitely helped our card count and our score.
      
    
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