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ad79
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Coup De Main(CB#2) question Thu, 19 January 2012 23:25
Hi all.

Played a very cool game of Memoir tonight.

Started the British branch of the Break Through Normandy campaign with Coup De Main.

In this scenario the Nritish starts with 1 unit on the board, drops 9 units and can enter 3 more when full daylight is reached, for a total of 13 units, if we don't include possible reserves.

Victory conditions are 10 medals, and this raises some questions for me.

Reserve roll for the British has the possiblity of giving them 2 units, but nothing is guaranteed in Memoir.

Let's assume reserve roll brings on 1 unit, like it did for me tonight.

When I dropped my figures ONLY 5 of those landed safely.(2 tried to crowd the same hex, already occupied by an Axis unit and 2 left the board all together.)

So now I have 7 units on the board, with 3 that CAN enter when full daylight is reached for a total of 10 units. The axis now needs to elliminate all my units to win.

And here comes my questions.

1. What happens if reserve roll, paradrop and those 3 late arrivals doesn't add up to 10?

2. What happens if I don't bring on those late arrivals, and thereby keeping the British unit total at under 10?


I seriously considered this last option as having only 9 units would make it impossible for the Axis to win. THen I could have cycled the deck until I got Barrage or Air Power cards and picked of Axis units, providing they didn't get Medics & Mechanics. But I figured that was bad sportmansship and brought on all 3 latecomers.

I won the scenario 10-5, but my 5 units had a combined total of 9 figures left! (4,2,1,1,1)

This same problem can arrise in all the paradrop scenarios in the Break Through Normandy campaign and I think it needs an answer.

I think the victory condition for the Axis should be
10 medals or if there are no Allied units left on the board.
That additon to the victory condition would fix this issue.
      
clexton27
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Thu, 19 January 2012 23:35
Hey stig,
I played the 82nd Airborne drop myself solo the other day and had the same thing happen.

I think there must be a difference in doing a drop over or else the Axis can't win.

It would be good to get an answer from DOW on this one....
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Thu, 19 January 2012 23:40
Certainly in that case the Axis has merely to eliminate all your units to win. The alternative, denying Axis side any possibility of victory, is (I mean no offense) absurd.

But you raise an interesting point that indicates a design flaw in the scenario. You could house rule this and drop the required medal count for both sides to 9. That's probably what I would do.

But as Stevens said, maybe a do-over is necessary.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 January 2012 23:41]

      
Phread
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 01:30
If would seem sensible to grant an Axis win if the Axis eliminate every available Allied unit if there are less than 10 on the board.

Consider it a sudden death victory condition and grant the winning Axis player 10 medals.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 08:15
About reserves in airborne scenarios: the Allied player shouldn't be allowed to enter ANY reserves in these scenarios, as he gets resupplied and reinforced from air. It make sense I guess...
      
tinsoldier
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 11:31
Phread wrote on Fri, 20 January 2012 01:30

If would seem sensible to grant an Axis win if the Axis eliminate every available Allied unit if there are less than 10 on the board.

Consider it a sudden death victory condition and grant the winning Axis player 10 medals.



I like Phread suggestion. I prefer it to lowering down the number of medals to the number of British units, which is uncertain until the second drop.

Am going to play this Normandy campaign soon. Never played Breakthrough before. Played already the Malaya Bicycle Tour, more on it when I have time to write down a report.
      
deemao
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 14:14
nemesszili wrote on Fri, 20 January 2012 08:15

About reserves in airborne scenarios: the Allied player shouldn't be allowed to enter ANY reserves in these scenarios, as he gets resupplied and reinforced from air. It make sense I guess...


This is great thought. Very logical and about the base question - it should be done that way - simply add the sentence.
      
clexton27
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 14:26
deemao wrote on Fri, 20 January 2012 08:14

nemesszili wrote on Fri, 20 January 2012 08:15

About reserves in airborne scenarios: the Allied player shouldn't be allowed to enter ANY reserves in these scenarios, as he gets resupplied and reinforced from air. It make sense I guess...


This is great thought. Very logical and about the base question - it should be done that way - simply add the sentence.


Don't forget friends that the scenario is refllecting an actual historical incident and being reinforced at daylight is a past reality. If Memoir '44 were to drift away from it's historical narrative it would deviate from it's mission statement of purpose. And that to me would be a great loss indeed.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 14:49
Receiving reinforcements from the beach before (!) the actual paradrop takes place? Not historical enough... maybe the Allied player should be able to get reserves, but those would be only French Resistance units. Right?

[Updated on: Fri, 20 January 2012 14:49]

      
clexton27
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 17:10
I know that American and British paratroop (Airborne) units received reinforcements on the coast via gliderborne forces. I think the intent of the scenarios is to reflect this influx of reinforcements from the air versus land conveyance.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 17:56
OK for infantry then.

But tanks? Artillery? They were transported by air only in Market Garden, but not on D-Day...
      
clexton27
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 19:43
There were glider borne artillery units on D-Day:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA428996

[Updated on: Fri, 20 January 2012 19:44]

      
ad79
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 20:18
Hey boys!

No fighting over history in the forum of a game about historic fighting! Very Happy

The scenario had all the ingridients we want in BT scenarios. Initial fights, regrouping, troop movements, second phase of fighting, counter-attacks and drama.
The 10-5 results doesn't show the drama.

And my reserves were combat engineers. Did they come on gliders? Rolling Eyes
      
clexton27
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 20:46
We are not fighting, hopefully we are educating. Learning something that you had never considered before is great stuff.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 21:43
I should've guessed artillery, there is a scenario around here in which the Screaming Eagles have mortars...

And we're not fighting, we're just teaching each other (more exactly stevens is teaching me Very Happy).

And I did play the Coup de Main solo, but I didn't like it that much. It was too long for a solo battle... I prefer shorter BT battles (if there are any).

[Updated on: Fri, 20 January 2012 21:44]

      
deemao
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 22:27
Stevens, I doubt that there was any howitzer to help paratroopers on July 6th. Neither on british or american side.
      
clexton27
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Fri, 20 January 2012 22:35
I believe you are correct sir, but field artillery pieces of smaller calibre that could be assembled and moved were put into action.
      
tank commander
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Wed, 25 January 2012 01:52
deemao wrote on Fri, 20 January 2012 16:27

Stevens, I doubt that there was any howitzer to help paratroopers on July 6th. Neither on british or american side.



Ah, there was the 75mm pack howiter which had an "airborne" version:

The M8 (Airborne) was the M1 box trail design with rubber wheels for jeep transport. It could be apportioned into seven "paracrates" and dropped from the skies with paratroopers, or come in on glider and transport planes. It weighed 1,339 pounds, had a range of 9,600 yards, and the crew of four could manage a prolonged rate of fire of three rounds per minute. They were phased out at the end of WWII, replaced by the 57mm and 75mm recoilless rifles.

      
Antoine
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Wed, 25 January 2012 16:14
ad79 schrieb am Thu, 19 January 2012 23:25

1. What happens if reserve roll, paradrop and those 3 late arrivals doesn't add up to 10?

2. What happens if I don't bring on those late arrivals, and thereby keeping the British unit total at under 10?

In both cases the Axis player wins the game if he eliminates all enemy units.
If you play the campaign, the Axis player receives the maximum number of points anyway (10 points for this scenario, even if he 'only' eliminated 8 units).
      
deemao
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Wed, 25 January 2012 16:45
Well I didnt say that there wasnt any of those things, but I never saw any mention about them used in Overlord Operation.

From wiki: (they said it was used..?)
The division's parachute artillery experienced one of the worst drops of the operation, losing all but one howitzer and most of its troops as casualties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_airborne_landings_in_N ormandy

Other source:
http://books.google.cz/books?id=UxSUxWg96xsC&pg=PA37& ;lpg=PA37&dq=d+day+airdrop+howitzer&source=bl&ot s=RRLUZrDism&sig=efkjr5Oc2CHtls-COyRO8BFsRdg&hl=cs&a mp;sa=X&ei=ZCIgT7aHKOTk4QTuhbivDw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v= onepage&q=d%20day%20airdrop%20howitzer&f=false

Well but this is for another discussion.
      
ad79
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Thu, 26 January 2012 08:00
Antoine wrote on Wed, 25 January 2012 16:14

ad79 schrieb am Thu, 19 January 2012 23:25

1. What happens if reserve roll, paradrop and those 3 late arrivals doesn't add up to 10?

2. What happens if I don't bring on those late arrivals, and thereby keeping the British unit total at under 10?

In both cases the Axis player wins the game if he eliminates all enemy units.
If you play the campaign, the Axis player receives the maximum number of points anyway (10 points for this scenario, even if he 'only' eliminated 8 units).


Thanks!
      
clexton27
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Thu, 26 January 2012 13:15
ad79 schrieb am Thu, 19 January 2012 23:25



Thanks!


Ditto on the thanks Antoine! Merci!
      
tank commander
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sat, 11 February 2012 14:46
The Allied reinforcements (up to 3 units) can only enter when full daylight is reached and are restricted to entering only the Allied right baseline hex next to Pegasus Bridge.

Would it be reasonable to assume that any Reserve unit(s) be under the same restrictions?

Some posts above wondered about what type of units may be used with Reserve rolls in this scenario. With a double grenade roll, the Allied player could deploy two tank units or two artillery units for that matter. A lot of players may very well use a "houserule" to handle this scenario and reserve rolls when playing the Campaign.

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sat, 11 February 2012 18:26
I played this scenario last night with a friend as part of the campaign. We agreed to:

* Re-drop any initial para figures which went off board etc. to ensure 9 units dropped. So with 10 units for definate, the Germans can win.
* But as paratroops can't move or battle in the turn they land, this meant that although the Allies go first, only the unit which starts the game on the board can be ordered in turn 1
* As historically the paradrop was made in darkness, we didn't roll for daylight in the Allied turn 1.

The Allies won 10:5 but with many units down to 1 figure.

Now we move on to the Scottish Corridor scenario and a few questions about the deployment and ordering of the "up to" 3 armour and 3 elite infantry units as German reinforcements:

1. If the entry hexes are occupied I guess the units must wait for entry?
2. Is the "up to" number determined by figures previously lost in the battle?

[Updated on: Sat, 11 February 2012 18:27]

      
tank commander
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sat, 11 February 2012 20:20
Achtung Panzer wrote on Sat, 11 February 2012 12:26

Now we move on to the Scottish Corridor scenario and a few questions about the deployment and ordering of the "up to" 3 armour and 3 elite infantry units as German reinforcements:

1. If the entry hexes are occupied I guess the units must wait for entry?
2. Is the "up to" number determined by figures previously lost in the battle?



1. - Yes

2. - No.

The reasoning for this was I did not see any note (as was made in in the Coup de Main sceanrio) that would indicate such a thing.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sun, 12 February 2012 10:20
tank commander wrote on Sat, 11 February 2012 19:20

Achtung Panzer wrote on Sat, 11 February 2012 12:26

Now we move on to the Scottish Corridor scenario and a few questions about the deployment and ordering of the "up to" 3 armour and 3 elite infantry units as German reinforcements:

1. If the entry hexes are occupied I guess the units must wait for entry?
2. Is the "up to" number determined by figures previously lost in the battle?



1. - Yes

2. - No.

The reasoning for this was I did not see any note (as was made in in the Coup de Main sceanrio) that would indicate such a thing.



So the number is determined by the order card? If so, a total of 6 units may arrive over several turns. This would seem to be realistic for considerable reinforcements.
      
tank commander
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sun, 12 February 2012 14:36
Achtung Panzer wrote on Sun, 12 February 2012 04:20

tank commander wrote on Sat, 11 February 2012 19:20

Achtung Panzer wrote on Sat, 11 February 2012 12:26

Now we move on to the Scottish Corridor scenario and a few questions about the deployment and ordering of the "up to" 3 armour and 3 elite infantry units as German reinforcements:

1. If the entry hexes are occupied I guess the units must wait for entry?
2. Is the "up to" number determined by figures previously lost in the battle?



1. - Yes

2. - No.

The reasoning for this was I did not see any note (as was made in in the Coup de Main sceanrio) that would indicate such a thing.



So the number is determined by the order card? If so, a total of 6 units may arrive over several turns. This would seem to be realistic for considerable reinforcements.



That is how it is most likely to happen, although a German Left Assault card could get all 6 units onto the board in one turn.
      
Frostberg
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sun, 20 October 2013 16:16
Is it possible to deploy the three extra units in full daylight over serveral turns? Or can I use only ONE card to deploy?
Same question for all extra paradrops in full daylight for the "Dropped On The Contentin"-scenarios.

Thanks!
      
jdrommel
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sun, 20 October 2013 18:04
Hello Frostberg,


Quote:

Is it possible to deploy the three extra units in full daylight over serveral turns? Or can I use only ONE card to deploy?


Yes, these units are commandos units coming from Sword Beach. You are not obliged to use only one card to deploy.

Quote:

Same question for all extra paradrops in full daylight for the "Dropped On The Contentin"-scenarios.


Yes for operation Albany and no for operation Boston.
For Operation Boston, it's an airlanding operation with gliders, so the three units must arrived in the same time, using only one command card. I think there are some words missing in the special rules in English, but the French rules are good (en une seule fois/only in one go).

Yours, Smile

Jdrommel.
      
Frostberg
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Sun, 20 October 2013 18:20
Thank you very much for the fast answer! Smile

[Updated on: Sun, 20 October 2013 18:20]

      
Almilcar
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Re:Coup De Main(CB#2) question Mon, 21 October 2013 20:16
jdrommel wrote on Sun, 20 October 2013 18:04

Hello Frostberg,


Quote:

Is it possible to deploy the three extra units in full daylight over serveral turns? Or can I use only ONE card to deploy?


Yes, these units are commandos units coming from Sword Beach. You are not obliged to use only one card to deploy.

Quote:

Same question for all extra paradrops in full daylight for the "Dropped On The Contentin"-scenarios.


Yes for operation Albany and no for operation Boston.
For Operation Boston, it's an airlanding operation with gliders, so the three units must arrived in the same time, using only one command card. I think there are some words missing in the special rules in English, but the French rules are good (en une seule fois/only in one go).

Yours, Smile

Jdrommel.


Thanks Jacques.

However, the missing text in the english version makes a difference to the scenario. We have played "Dropped on the Contentin" several times and never in that way, because as you have said is not indicated in that way in the Special Rules section.

Marked to review the translation.

Thanks again.

      
    
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