Five Tribes Five Tribes

Forums

Search
Forums » Small World - English » Getting rid of random (dice)
Show: Today's Posts 
  
AuthorTopic
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 13:22
My team has experience in such games as Kingsburg, Starcraft, Game of thrones (perfect),Innovation, M:TG and some others.
We hate random when it gives players some unfair bonuses. Dice gives. It ruins all strategy. You can't just sit down and count how many troops you need to win.
We liked Small World very much. Not so complicated, fun, fast and gives lots of possibilities. You have to think to win. But dice ruins it all.
In Kingsburg addon fixed reinforcement dice with an optional rule: each player has tokens 0,1,1,2,3,4 instead of 6d. I suggest that Small world SHOULD have an official tested rule for those who seek fair battle experience.
I read some forums, negotiated with other players. A lot of people have the same dice problem.

My suggestion to the developers (I hope they read that forum) and community is to create the optional rule (optional means you can have it in your game or just play with a dice):
-each player has 8 tokens: 0,0,0,1,1,1,2,3
-when a player runs out of tokens (ghouls or berserk) he takes all of his tokens from the discard pile.

Or something like that.

[Updated on: Tue, 29 October 2013 14:01]

      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 7170
Registered:
July 2007
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 15:00
If you get rid of the dice, you also lose that perfect moment when you need a certain roll and your opponent is begging that you don't get it. You blow on the die, shake it above your head...and let it roll!

Then one of you falls to your knees in anguish while the other dances around the table like a crazy man!! It's a beautiful thing, and it would be totally missing if you just pulled out a token. Smile
      
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 15:17
It's gambling. And we want pure strategy from Small World. All is perfect. Dice ruins all.
Guys, I know, lots of people like just to spare time. We like to win not by chance. One dice ruins all the job we've done making our turns.
I don't want to BAN the dice. I want a choice for those who just want to gamble after a work day. And for geeks like me and my friends who want fair battles, where you need to think.
Small World is a good strategic game. Why to ruin it with a dice?

[Updated on: Tue, 29 October 2013 15:36]

      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 7170
Registered:
July 2007
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 15:48
alexey.talan wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 18:17

It's gambling. And we want pure strategy from Small World. All is perfect. Dice ruins all.
Guys, I know, lots of people like just to spare time. We like to win not by chance. One dice ruins all the job we've done making our turns.
I don't want to BAN the dice. I want a choice for those who just want to gamble after a work day. And for geeks like me and my friends who want fair battles, where you need to think.
Small World is a good strategic game. Why to ruin it with a dice?


Personally, I would much rather DoW and Philippe spend their time making interesting expansions than 'fixing' the dice. You could do that with poker chips if you wanted to...while the rest of us enjoy the epic moments of the dice rolls.
      
AngryMarine
Senior Member
Faster Than Mongolian Horse

User Pages
Posts: 290
Registered:
January 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 17:09
Quote:

Personally, I would much rather DoW and Philippe spend their time making interesting expansions than 'fixing' the dice. You could do that with poker chips if you wanted to...while the rest of us enjoy the epic moments of the dice rolls.

Supporting! Small World is perfect as it is! Take away the dice and you will ruin it. Yes, Small World is an extremistan game (that's why I strongly believe that measuring players' rating with ELO system is absolutely absurd, for ELO was created for chess which is a mediocristan game if you know what I mean), but it is pure strategy and no gambling at all.

[Updated on: Tue, 29 October 2013 19:05]

      
Lawrence303
Junior Member
KS Backer - Skeleton

Posts: 29
Registered:
December 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 20:01
I'm with Alexey here. The die is fun for casual games, but for those of us who want to play a more rigorous strategy game, it should be eliminated. No reason to keep a random element in a game that already has components of luck.

I don't see the need for Alexey's idea for tokens to replace the die. Just get rid of the die and be done with it. If you don't have enough tokens to conquer a region, you can't have it.

I have some other ideas for reducing the role of luck in SW - auctioning turn order, mostly. Maybe I'll post them in another thread.
      
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 20:30
To play without a dice is good too. Just send away Berserk and it's okay.
But maybe tokens are needed to make the game more interesting and bring more action.
Every good board game should have two points: random for replayability and no random that gives unfair advantage. Ex. - Game of Thrones. Every game is unique because of Events.
In Small world I think that first race shouldn't be fixed. It's okay.
But maybe for the first round designers can implement the rule from Kingsburg when people are bargaining for leaders. But I don't like it much.

Anyway, everything is evolving. Small world is a big game, why should it stop evolving in different ways? No-dice rule and so on will give it more opportunities. It may become very interesting tournament game, it has great potential. For ex.: ban-list of races/special powers, no dice rule. And the game is ready.
      
AngryMarine
Senior Member
Faster Than Mongolian Horse

User Pages
Posts: 290
Registered:
January 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 20:51
Quote:

Small world is a big game, why should it stop evolving in different ways?

Small World is ingenious and you don't change ingenious things. It is some light from above that is beyond human rational thinking. Ingenious things cannot be improved. Apply a slight change to anything ingenious and you will ruin it completely. Taking away the die from Small World is as absurd as introducing it to chess.
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 7170
Registered:
July 2007
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 20:54
Those sound like fine house rules, but if you're playing with me I would expect you to play by the official rules.

I think house rules are a great way to make a game more fun for people but this has become a huge game just the way it is!! You're assuming that people would want to change the way they play for tournaments and such, which is a huge assumption. Clearly, people like Small World as it is.
      
Lawrence303
Junior Member
KS Backer - Skeleton

Posts: 29
Registered:
December 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 22:35
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 15:54

You're assuming that people would want to change the way they play for tournaments and such, which is a huge assumption. Clearly, people like Small World as it is.

I don't think it has to be either/or. Scrabble, for example, is a game enjoyed by millions of casual players, and also by a small number of serious competitive players who use modified rules and approach the game in a totally different way.
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 7170
Registered:
July 2007
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 29 October 2013 22:43
Lawrence303 wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 01:35

rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 15:54

You're assuming that people would want to change the way they play for tournaments and such, which is a huge assumption. Clearly, people like Small World as it is.

I don't think it has to be either/or. Scrabble, for example, is a game enjoyed by millions of casual players, and also by a small number of serious competitive players who use modified rules and approach the game in a totally different way.


Which is why I said that using a House Rule is a great idea for this situation. Go for it! If you enjoy playing the game without the dice, then find other people who want to as well and have fun! That's the whole point of the game.

My earlier point was that I would rather DoW and Philippe spend their time and energy creating an expansion for the rest of us instead of removing a fun part of this great game! But that's just me. Smile
      
DAC cazaron
Senior Member
Aspirante

Posts: 223
Registered:
May 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Wed, 30 October 2013 00:29
I agree with Rasmussen, I prefer the intense moments the dice brings, but I can absolutely see why you wouldn't prefer it.

The beauty of a board game is that if others agree to it, you can change the rules all you want!

Hope you have fun with your no-dice, I'm going to try it out myself when I get a tabletop copy.

      
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Wed, 30 October 2013 06:03
I know that all people are different. And it's always good to keep it in mind.
For me and my friends dice ruins all. Small World is not just a casual game. For us fun is to outsmart an opponent. No fun to lose a battle because of random.
Tokens give some sort of random too - you don't know which token your opponent will use (too many factors to predict).
Anyway, I am talking about an optional rule. These rules often appear in addons and means that you can add them if you seek more strategic gameplay or just play with some random if you seek beer-fun.
      
DAC cazaron
Senior Member
Aspirante

Posts: 223
Registered:
May 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Wed, 30 October 2013 09:35
alexey.talan wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 01:03

I know that all people are different. And it's always good to keep it in mind.
For me and my friends dice ruins all. Small World is not just a casual game. For us fun is to outsmart an opponent. No fun to lose a battle because of random.
Tokens give some sort of random too - you don't know which token your opponent will use (too many factors to predict).
Anyway, I am talking about an optional rule. These rules often appear in addons and means that you can add them if you seek more strategic gameplay or just play with some random if you seek beer-fun.


Yes, it sounds like an excellent way to play.
      
masterdruid817
Member

Posts: 51
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Wed, 30 October 2013 21:40
When you think about it, war has some luck in it. You try to battle that enemy army with almost enough troops. With some luck, you might just do it. Plus the die can give rise to new powers/races. Disorganized berserkers who rely on chaotic battle style, pygmy shamans who deal with the unpredictable art of raising the dead, will-o-wisps who harness unstable magic, that sort of thing. Not only do you get those YES YES YES and AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHH moments, the die is also thematic!
      
agrabah
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Registered:
June 2011
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Tue, 05 November 2013 07:14
If you want a serious strategy war/area-control game with little or no luck in it, you are probably playing the wrong game Smile
      
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Fri, 08 November 2013 09:09
agrabah wrote on Tue, 05 November 2013 01:14

If you want a serious strategy war/area-control game with little or no luck in it, you are probably playing the wrong game Smile

Nope. Small World has everything. Just needs no dice rule.
Any comments from Days of Wonder?
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

User Pages
Posts: 7170
Registered:
July 2007
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Fri, 08 November 2013 15:57
alexey.talan wrote on Fri, 08 November 2013 12:09

agrabah wrote on Tue, 05 November 2013 01:14

If you want a serious strategy war/area-control game with little or no luck in it, you are probably playing the wrong game Smile

Nope. Small World has everything. Just needs no dice rule.
Any comments from Days of Wonder?



I wouldn't hold my breath for DoW to make a comment. You can play with a house rule but I hope they won't spend time and money on fixing a game that isn't broken. I would much rather see that same time and money going into new expansions for Small World or brand new games! Razz
      
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Fri, 08 November 2013 20:03
It's not a fix. It's just a new rule in an addon. Don't think it will consume too much time.
      
AngryMarine
Senior Member
Faster Than Mongolian Horse

User Pages
Posts: 290
Registered:
January 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Fri, 08 November 2013 21:28
Alexey, do you know that Days of Wonder are publishers not designers?
Did you bother to read about the game origin, about the designer and his main profession before offering your own rules and insisting on them into the bargain?
Can you assume just for a moment that there is some idea behind the die and it was introduced to the game not just by someone's caprice???
As a publisher would you risk to change the game that has achieved success already and sells like hot pies only because someone's brain cannot cope with the die while planning his playing strategy?
If you think that you are mature enough to offer your rules, maybe you should design your own game?
Perhaps, Days of Wonder will publish it, who knows?! Smile
      
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Mon, 11 November 2013 10:51
I am just a fan that suggested new feature like many other fans.
About my proposal. I don't want to get rid of dice completely! It's about an optional rule for more strategic gaming.
For example, both Kingsburg and Game of thrones have addons with optional rules that help to get rid of random elements. And that's okay.
      
AngryMarine
Senior Member
Faster Than Mongolian Horse

User Pages
Posts: 290
Registered:
January 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Mon, 11 November 2013 14:38
No need to explain, I got you very well. You are asking for the option to change a basic rule. Changing basic rules perverts the idea of any game and options to do that divide the community. You like strategy games, which shows that you are fond of thinking, and that makes me believe that sooner or later you will look on things at a different angle and see that both the Reinforcement Die and Berserk Power add strategy and balance to the game not deprive it of them.

[Updated on: Mon, 11 November 2013 16:20]

      
masterdruid817
Member

Posts: 51
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Mon, 11 November 2013 14:46
And the pygmies and will-o-wisps! Don't forget them.
      
*player38092
Senior Member

Posts: 771
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Wed, 20 November 2013 23:28
Randomness is also generated by the people tokens and powers drawn. The die really doesn't "ruin" the game. It is a small factor.
BTW how does your group like to play Starcraft, as it does contain random events and card drawing?
      
Josie75
Member
KS Backer - Goblin

User Pages
Posts: 63
Registered:
February 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Thu, 21 November 2013 11:59
AngryMarine schrieb am Mon, 11 November 2013 14:38

[...]and see that both the Reinforcement Die and Berserk Power add strategy and balance to the game not deprive it of them.

Removing the die would result in having Berserk removed too. What's next? Oh yes, some people don't like the Gypsies. Let's get rid of them too. And then? Someone thinks race XY is overpowered and wants an option to remove it from the game. This list can be endless.

If you don't like a part of the game (e.g the die), make a house rule and remove it (e.g. the die and the Berserk power).

Just my 2 cents.
      
Cohen The Barbarian
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 16
Registered:
November 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Fri, 22 November 2013 20:30
I like the dice. If you're lucky you'd add only 1 or 2 victory points to your count.
Strategycally, it doesn't really change what you could do with your active race, it just adds some chill to the last attack, which is nice from my point of view as I see SW as a family game.
Also, as mentioned above, there is some luck in war, and the dice with only 3 faces adds the minimum to it.
      
alexey.talan
Junior Member

User Pages
Posts: 24
Registered:
October 2013
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Sun, 01 December 2013 20:57
Robin wrote on Wed, 20 November 2013 17:28


BTW how does your group like to play Starcraft, as it does contain random events and card drawing?

We switched to Game of Thrones with the rule from addon.
We trued tokens today. Worked good. Makes game more fun and more strategic.
8 tokens. Then shuffle them if needed.
      
Dan42hitchikers
Member

Posts: 88
Registered:
August 2012
Re:Getting rid of random (dice) Sun, 01 December 2013 23:29
How does it work?
      
    
Previous Topic:The Art of Small World - Amazing 3D figures come to life
Next Topic:New race sugestion
Goto Forum: