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Alby87
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Posts: 7
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April 2011
Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Tue, 31 May 2011 10:46
Hi!

I've just bought TtR Marklin, and I enjoy this game so much! I've got this because it's a common opinion this is the best TtR game... I've read that this game it's not compatible with Switzerland (rumours are that it will be reprinted in November 2011) because it misses 8 card, one for each color, to have the same distribution.

Marklin will be compatible with the MapPack you have announced during the contest?

If not, can you include the 8 missing card, with a symbol on the front so we can separate them from the standard deck when we want to play Marklin normal game? That would be very useful also for all the custom expansion are on Internet!

Thank you.
Alby87
      
Alby87
Junior Member

Posts: 7
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Tue, 06 September 2011 09:31
Hi! I saw the map pack were announced. In the rules is written that if you haven't USA or Europe, you're out of luck because you don't have the right cards. I've seen this post on BGG http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/216454/playing-switzerland-i f-all-you-own-is-marklin but the no cost solution isn't that good because it work for 2-3 users.

I've wrote in the post up to this to create a "patch" for marklin users: a mini deck of 8 cards to correct the distribution... Maybe a gift for Marklin registrated users who buyes in your shop the mappack, or maybe a very small cost item.

What do you think?
      
player649351
Junior Member
Cadet

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August 2010
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 09 September 2011 06:37
that's a good idea.
or u can just print these missing ticket cards.
      
Alby87
Junior Member

Posts: 7
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 09 September 2011 10:18
If you print those cards, they wouldn't be identical to the others, so they will be individuable. Also, I discovered that in Asia there will be new trains, incompatible with the colors of the Marklin. Can DOW issue also 18 trains (9 purple and 9 white)?

I think this "upgrade" kit could be really usefull.

As an owner of only Marklin, I'll grab for sure India/Switzerland, now I'm in doubt for Asia Confused
      
DTee
Junior Member
T2R Map Design Contest Winner

Posts: 13
Registered:
November 2009
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Sat, 10 September 2011 00:29
Alby87 wrote on Fri, 09 September 2011 09:18

If you print those cards, they wouldn't be identical to the others, so they will be individuable. Also, I discovered that in Asia there will be new trains, incompatible with the colors of the Marklin. Can DOW issue also 18 trains (9 purple and 9 white)?

I think this "upgrade" kit could be really usefull.

As an owner of only Marklin, I'll grab for sure India/Switzerland, now I'm in doubt for Asia Confused


I believe you only need the extra trains in three colours, so that shouldn't be a problem (for teams happy to play Black, Yellow and Red).

All four maps are designed to be played with a standard deck of train cards (Original, Europe or Nordic). Removing Marklin's passenger cards, +4's and a single locomotive gets you close to that distribution and some play groups will be happier to make do than others.

Longer term, you might want to pick up the Original or Europe. That'd make sure you're set for any future map collections.
      
DrakeStorm
Senior Member

Posts: 796
Registered:
March 2006
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Mon, 12 September 2011 06:53
I think buying the 1910 Expansion would get you a set of Train cards for the cheapest. All the destination cards would be useless without the USA map, but at least you'd have the right set of train cards.
      
travisjhall
Senior Member

Posts: 358
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Mon, 12 September 2011 17:38
I've pointed this out to Alby over on the BoardGameGeek forums already, but for those who read here but not there...

DoW sell replacement Ticket To Ride Card Sets through the online store. They only have the original deck at the moment (so small cards) because the Europe deck is out of stock, but that only costs US$5 (plus shipping). The Europe equivalent was the same price when it was available (and hopefully it will become available again).

And the trains really aren't a big deal for Marklin players, as only three colours of trains are required. You just don't get to use purple or white trains, and have to use the other three colours.

Train colours are an issue for anyone who tries to pair Nordic Countries with the map expansions. Nordic Countries only gives purple, white and black trains, and Team Asia does not give extra purple or white trains. My suggestion is to make do with the last nine trains for two teams being a different colour, or buy Marklin (which will give you more purple and white trains).
      
Caboose
Senior Member
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May 2004
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Wed, 14 September 2011 00:02
Or one can use the extra trains in Nordic and thus each team just uses 42 trains vs 54.

Another alternative is to purchase Mayday Games Euro Train Token Set. You get 50 wooden trains in 7 different colors. Sure it is NOT 54..but you can make up for the extra trains in the other colors (i.e. put the different color trains in the middle of the 3+ length routes). Also since they are different, you can use different trains for those people who like to always use the same color (i.e. use the normal color trains for one person and the wooden ones for another player).

Here's the link : (everything on mayday games are pre-order but they are available!)
http://maydaygames.com/gaming-accessories/tokens-category/pr emium-wooden-train-token-set-preorder.html

Cab
(edit # of different wooden colors in Mayday Games set - there is a compartment for an 8th color)

[Updated on: Wed, 14 September 2011 00:10]

      
DTee
Junior Member
T2R Map Design Contest Winner

Posts: 13
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November 2009
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Wed, 14 September 2011 03:06
travisjhall wrote on Mon, 12 September 2011 16:38


DoW sell replacement Ticket To Ride Card Sets through the online store. They only have the original deck at the moment (so small cards) because the Europe deck is out of stock, but that only costs US$5 (plus shipping). The Europe equivalent was the same price when it was available (and hopefully it will become available again).


Nice spot. I guess these will be even more popular with the map collections adding wear to everyone's cards. I hope they'll be available at Essen (to save postage) and in the US store soon.

The Euro store is charging an extra ¤1 for the European card set and I'd rather pay that than go back to the smaller cards.
      
travisjhall
Senior Member

Posts: 358
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Thu, 15 September 2011 11:45
Caboose wrote on Wed, 14 September 2011 08:02

Or one can use the extra trains in Nordic and thus each team just uses 42 trains vs 54.

Nordic Countries generally has 45 trains in each of its three colours including spares (as it uses less trains in the game itself). If you've had a train go missing somewhere, it won't impact on your Nordic Countries play, but it will further impact on your play of Team Asia.

So it's 9 trains short, not 12, but that's going to have a major effect on play. It's really not an acceptable solution.

But then, why expect that DoW will try to make an expansion perfectly compatible with every form of TTR base set ever produced? There has to be a line between "compatible base set" and "incompatible base set" somewhere, or we will hear someone say, "Why can't I use my Memoir '44 game as a base set for Team Asia?" There's no reason all the TTR games have to be on the same side of that line. (More realistically, there's the TTR Card Game. Why not use that as a base for an expansion? Why, surely DoW will provide me with enough trains for free, right? Or, y'know, not.)

Nah, I don't regard the Nordic Countries incompatibility as a big deal. It's all good.

Quote:

Another alternative is to purchase Mayday Games Euro Train Token Set.

I suppose you could, and even though it will be a touch short of what you need, the colours should be close enough matches to be able to fill it out with a few plastic trains from Nordic Countries (or whatever). Not as bad to mix wood and plastic in similar colours as to mix completely different colours.

DTee, good spot on the availability of the Europe Card Set in the European store. I agree with you on the little extra cost being worth it for the larger cards. I don't know what the shipping options from the different DoW online stores are to various parts of the world, though.

Really, though, there are so many options for working around the issues that I really doubt many people are going to get completely stuck.
      
Alby87
Junior Member

Posts: 7
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Thu, 15 September 2011 14:29
travisjhall wrote on Thu, 15 September 2011 11:45

But then, why expect that DoW will try to make an expansion perfectly compatible with every form of TTR base set ever produced? There has to be a line between "compatible base set" and "incompatible base set" somewhere, or we will hear someone say, "Why can't I use my Memoir '44 game as a base set for Team Asia?" There's no reason all the TTR games have to be on the same side of that line. (More realistically, there's the TTR Card Game. Why not use that as a base for an expansion? Why, surely DoW will provide me with enough trains for free, right? Or, y'know, not.)

Nah, I don't regard the Nordic Countries incompatibility as a big deal. It's all good.



The idea is that TTR Base games are composed by 4 components:

-Board
-Destination Ticket
-Plastic Trains
-Train Cards

USA,Europe,Marklin and Nordic use the same base mechanic and the same base components. In many reviews of Europe some people said that it could be published as an expansion.

We weren't complaing why Memoir isn't compatible with TTR Expansion, but why we had to buy an expansion (USA 1910) or a totally new game (USA,Europe) when we have a game indentical of the predecessor, only with a few rules more; it was for only 8 cards (didn't know about the deck replacement before).

I do know that every thing comes to a cost. I don't know how much it's for a single train or a single card for DoW, but thinking in industrial quantity, without any box or distribution, considering selling a deck cost 5$ for DoW, making decks of (say) 120 cards could serve 15 users (120/8=15) or 12 users (120/10=12) if you want to put 2 advertising cards. Same for the trains. So the upgrade kits for Marklin weren't just bad idea to me, so this is why I proposed it. Obviously I'm a player trying to save money, you are a big company try to make more and more profits Razz

I'm happy to discover you released the card as a separate package. Now this seems fair to me.

I'll buy those two expansion plus the cards whn both will be disponible on site, so I can save in the shipping and use my Marklin 10% code Razz

Thanks again
Alby87

[Updated on: Thu, 15 September 2011 14:29]

      
travisjhall
Senior Member

Posts: 358
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 16 September 2011 06:18
Alby87 wrote on Thu, 15 September 2011 22:29

The idea is that TTR Base games are composed by 4 components:

-Board
-Destination Ticket
-Plastic Trains
-Train Cards

That's one line that could be drawn. Another is that a base game for the purpose of TTR expansions could be a game composed of at least:

  1. 45 trains in each of red, black, yellow, blue and green
  2. 110 train cards in the standard distribution

Quote:

We weren't complaing why Memoir isn't compatible with TTR Expansion,

No, you weren't, but if you don't recognise that an expansion is linked to only a certain set of games, you legitimately could. In this case, USA and Europe are in the set, and Marklin is close enough to be easily fixed with a small additional purchase. There's nothing that says that Nordic Countries has to be in the set too.

When an expansion is produced, the manufacturer says what it expands. DoW have done this. That's all we can demand.

Quote:

but why we had to buy an expansion (USA 1910) or a totally new game (USA,Europe) when we have a game indentical of the predecessor, only with a few rules more;

These games are not, component-wise, identical. Marklin is very close, Nordic Countries is considerably less close.

Quote:

thinking in industrial quantity, without any box or distribution,

But that's precisely the problem, you can't leave out the thinking of packaging and distribution. 120 cards split into 15 decks will be considerably more expensive in terms of packaging and distribution than 120 cards in one deck. There is also the overhead of producing any new product, and the overhead is diluted by the size of your market. The market for people who own Marklin but not USA or Europe and will buy Asia and care enough about the deck difference to also buy the 8 extra cards (and who won't simply pick up a USA or Europe set anyway and count themselves better off for owning the extra game) may well be pretty small compared to the market for those who want a replacement deck.

And then consider how Marklin owners are covered by the available products already, and the issue now is with Nordic Country owners instead, so now it is:

  1. owners of Nordic Countries
  2. who don't own USA, Europe or Marklin
  3. who will buy Asia
  4. (who won't fix the problem by buying USA, Europe or Marklin)

and we're looking at shipping sets of 108 plastic trains instead of 8 cards...

I think we can start to see why a line is drawn somewhere.

(I suppose DoW could start to sell replacement trains someday, but there is a fair bit of redundancy in that component already. All the games that ship with trains provide extras in case of loss, there's a lot less wear on trains than cards... I can see why cards are sold separately but not trains.)

Quote:

Obviously I'm a player trying to save money, you are a big company try to make more and more profits Razz

Quote:

I'm happy to discover you released the card as a separate package.

Who is this "you" you keep referring to? You are responding to me, but I am not a representative of Days of Wonder. I'm just a customer, the same as you.
      
Alby87
Junior Member

Posts: 7
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 16 September 2011 09:13
travisjhall wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 06:18


CUT


Now this is clear, nice explanation Smile

About my sentence "thinking in industrial quantity, without any box or distribution," I was saying the possibility to include this kit in every order of Asia done in the store when the purchaser as just Marklin: something when packing the order, a DoW member could take 9 white trains and 9 purple train from a bowl, put inside a cheap plastic bag and put inside the box to be send.

I understand that maybe designing and printing an entirely new set of card is pricey(and exist also the way of the replacement cards), you're right, but industrial wise, the purple and white trains are already designed, and when created could be used for both new Marklin sets or for this "conversion kits".

Obviously those are just ideas.

Quote:


Quote:

Obviously I'm a player trying to save money, you are a big company try to make more and more profits Razz

Quote:

I'm happy to discover you released the card as a separate package.

Who is this "you" you keep referring to? You are responding to me, but I am not a representative of Days of Wonder. I'm just a customer, the same as you.


Sorry! I was counfused cause in the topic in BGG I was replied by a DoW member (Eric),and now I was thinking I was talking with the same person Laughing

[Updated on: Fri, 16 September 2011 09:13]

      
travisjhall
Senior Member

Posts: 358
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 16 September 2011 10:33
Alby87 wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 17:13

About my sentence "thinking in industrial quantity, without any box or distribution," I was saying the possibility to include this kit in every order of Asia done in the store when the purchaser as just Marklin: something when packing the order, a DoW member could take 9 white trains and 9 purple train from a bowl, put inside a cheap plastic bag and put inside the box to be send.

I suspect that the bulk of DoW's sales do not go through their own online store, which means you've just added another restriction to my earlier list: "purchases Asia from DoW online store". Then they need to know who needs these extra trains. Even if the customer purchases Asia through the online store and registers a Nordic Countries code or has purchased Nordic Countries from the online store and has never registered a USA, Europe or Marklin code or purchased USA, Europe or Marklin from the online store, there is no way of knowing whether the customer has bought USA, Europe or Marklin from another source.

(I work with that sort of business data for a living, and I usually wind up telling the business that doing this sort of stuff is a bad idea. The wasted staff hours alone easily negate the benefits gained from any customer good will.)

So, you're helping an ever-smaller market, and now adding manual labour to distribute a product you can't charge for. On top of that, DoW probably doesn't keep large numbers of loose trains sitting around their warehouse. The plastic trains would be packaged into the sealed game boxes at the factory (or at some other point well before reaching DoW's retail store). Making "Nordic Countries upgrade kits" requires a whole new production stream. And many of the people you send extra stuff to won't get any benefit from it, because they have games you don't know about.

And it isn't 9 white trains and 9 purple trains that are required. When I mentioned 108 trains, it wasn't a typo. Nordic Countries is short two sets of 45 cards for a five-player game of Legendary Asia. So, there's another 90 trains in another colour.

Although come to think of it, if you provide the 90 trains, you no longer have to provide the 9 white and 9 purple. The customer can just play with black and the two colours just provided. But still, that's 90 trains, not 18.

This stuff is easy when you only have to do it once, but when you're talking about a business, it gets a lot harder.

Quote:

Sorry! I was counfused cause in the topic in BGG I was replied by a DoW member (Eric),and now I was thinking I was talking with the same person Laughing

I'm the same person who gave you a solution to your issue there, but I'm still not Eric.
      
Alby87
Junior Member

Posts: 7
Registered:
April 2011
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 16 September 2011 15:09
travisjhall wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 10:33

DoW probably doesn't keep large numbers of loose trains sitting around their warehouse. The plastic trains would be packaged into the sealed game boxes at the factory (or at some other point well before reaching DoW's retail store).

You could be right.

travisjhall wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 10:33

Making "Nordic Countries upgrade kits" requires a whole new production stream. And many of the people you send extra stuff to won't get any benefit from it, because they have games you don't know about.

And it isn't 9 white trains and 9 purple trains that are required. When I mentioned 108 trains, it wasn't a typo. Nordic Countries is short two sets of 45 cards for a five-player game of Legendary Asia. So, there's another 90 trains in another colour.



I mentioned about Marklin (and it's 18 missing trains) because Marklin it's a full scale game: Nordic Countries at my eyes was ever the "little" of the family: One who buy a smaller version (2-3 players) can't complain about not being able to use for expansion designed for bigger games.

If Marklin had very different material, and very different system, I would think "Ehi, it's another game! Quit complaing", but to me USA,Europe and Marklin are really really similar, if not equal. So is Nordic, but is a scaled down version, you know there are only three sets of train. That's what started my curiosity.

Alby87

[Updated on: Fri, 16 September 2011 15:09]

      
travisjhall
Senior Member

Posts: 358
Registered:
November 2004
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Sun, 18 September 2011 09:46
Alby87 wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 23:09


I mentioned about Marklin (and it's 18 missing trains) because Marklin it's a full scale game: Nordic Countries at my eyes was ever the "little" of the family: One who buy a smaller version (2-3 players) can't complain about not being able to use for expansion designed for bigger games.

Then why are you arguing with me about Nordic Countries? Here, let me break down and simplify the conversation for you...

travisjhall wrote

Nah, I don't regard the Nordic Countries incompatibility as a big deal. It's all good.


Alby87 wrote, in response,

The idea is that TTR Base games are composed by 4 components:
[...]
USA,Europe,Marklin and Nordic use the same base mechanic and the same base components.

See? There's you lumping Nordic Countries in with the other games that should be suitable (to a greater or lesser degree) for use with expansions.

Alby87 wrote

I mentioned about Marklin

And then we established that there is an acceptable solution for Marklin-only users (who have a game that is not an exact match for USA and Europe in terms of components), and the conversation moved on to Nordic Countries.
      
lax2football
Junior Member

Posts: 6
Registered:
May 2014
Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 30 May 2014 10:41
Nordic Countries has white and purple plus (& Black) so you can use those trains as your +9. I think it has all train cards however Wild looks different.
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

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Re:Marklin, Switzerland and new to be announced map pack. Fri, 30 May 2014 18:57
lax2football wrote on Fri, 30 May 2014 01:41

Nordic Countries has white and purple plus (& Black) so you can use those trains as your +9. I think it has all train cards however Wild looks different.


I'm not sure you noticed this, but the thread you answered was from 2011... Cool
      
    
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