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Sysyphus - Pommard
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Online tournament for World Championship Sun, 08 June 2014 04:07
We were told a couple weeks ago that there would not be any tournament online for the world championship due to too many security flaws.

I just sent an email, offering that we (the community) could still organise a tournament on our own and send the winner (or the top 2) to the World Championship.

I described some requirements (necessarily tough) :
1) Full name, address, valid email, copy of an ID sent to organizers
2) Games played closed by default, hidden cards available if the highest ranked player is ok with it.
3) Players have to be online with skype video on during their game with one organizer or volunteer(group video chat is now available for free on Skype)
4) (extra) Already played an online tournament in the past


US championship is held on Aug 17th. It is not impossible to wrap it up by then.
What I would have in mind : keep it close to World Championship format.

1st round : Let's say 10 multi -only 4ers-. 3 Asia, 3 Euro, and 4 US. Scoring as MPWC : 7,4,2,0
Groups of 4 players, to make scheduling as smooth as possible.
Winners of each group advance.

2nd round could keep a similar format. And then short KO Round on US map bo7.

I made DoW an offer to organize it, so that every one of us has a chance to participate to the World Championship.
Hopefully it works ! but do not have expectations...

[Updated on: Sun, 08 June 2014 04:40]

      
Qorlas
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Sun, 08 June 2014 12:55
I offer myself too for helping with organization.

Let it happen! I agree with the requirements pointed out by Sysyphus too.
      
CIA GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Mon, 09 June 2014 02:50
Would be nice to have an opportunity to try if some who do not live near a face to face tournament location want.

Timing probably excludes me, but I can think of others who deserve the opportunity that otherwise would not given location issues.

Rob
GFF
      
Magic Hansen
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 00:17
Thats really cool, Julien Razz

I'm still pissed that the danish champion was found in a semi-closed tournament in Oct. 2013 - long before anyone even heard of the world championship. Well, someone obviously heard about it Embarassed Rolling Eyes

      
AAA_dea1
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 10:06
+1 Thumbs Up

I agree with Sysy's requirements if that's needed to make it happen.

On a side note, I think there are more possible security flaws in the events played on the board, where you deal the cards yourself and have eye contact to the other players and to kibitzers standing around the table.

[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2014 10:27]

      
Qorlas
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 10:41
Probably the main problem is the sure identification of the players.

However, it would be time that the online community of TTR to be recognized in some way! We have made radical changes from few years ago and we are definitely no more of difficult management.
      
Franck
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 18:02
First of all, thank you (and the whole T2R community) for your dedication to our games.

Unfortunately, the current online system doesn't have the necessary safeguards to guarantee that a tournament with such a large prize on the line could be conducted without risk of dispute which would put the credibility of the World Championship at risk.

Because of that we are not able to authorize or include an online qualifier for the Ticket to Ride World Championship.

      
Knock - Chiroubles
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 20:41
Franck écrit le Wed, 11 June 2014 18:02

First of all, thank you (and the whole T2R community) for your dedication to our games.

Unfortunately, the current online system doesn't have the necessary safeguards to guarantee that a tournament with such a large prize on the line could be conducted without risk of dispute which would put the credibility of the World Championship at risk.

Because of that we are not able to authorize or include an online qualifier for the Ticket to Ride World Championship.




When you see how are organized some french tournaments, without possibility to register if you are not a member of the club who organises or a friend (nothing on their website before 1 or to weeks before the tournament, impossible to know anything before) ;
when you see the tie-breaker that Dow have choosen which is a total lottery (total of points, so in Africa if a player at your table end fast you are second with 90-100 points, and if you are at a table with lot af fiending you are second with 180-200 points : even if you won the 2 other games you can't hope for a good result at tie-breaker) ;
when you think that in a lot of countries there are not tournaments, or really too far for a lot of players (to play only 3 games) ;
when you see that you have so many online players and you don't give them a chance to play that tournament that you call "Ticket To Ride World Championship"...

your answer about credibility seems really poor and laughable, sorry Franck

      
Qorlas
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 20:53
The total points tiebreaker means that who wins Netherlands and/or Africa is ahead at tied points.

I could also discuss about the formula in qualifying tournaments of making a ranking between 20 players after 3 5players games on 4 tables randomly drawn (Europa/Asia/Netherlands) without a Swiss format or a final table between the players that were ahead on tied points.

However what I saw and heard about the qualifying national phases.. cases of Denmark and France probably are the best known
Let's say that local organizers had too much freedom in the qualifying tournaments Wink

In any case the effort from DOW has been considerable. If you remind the last world tournament we had only 7 countries (I think). This time the tournament has been really enlarged and I hope the final phases will be fun and without dispute.

I remind that a tournament cannot be perfect so the organizers will just do the best they can (and I speak on my personal experience for the online tournaments Wink )
      
CIA Truckerteller
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 20:54
Peronal attacks are not allowed, Knockando !

Well spoken, Sepp, eh, Franck ! And thank you so much for thanking us.

Stupid Sysyphus and his amateur plans.
And silly dea with your "nuanced" opinions. Surely DoW knows better. Being referee at bridge world championships and playing at the highest level qualifies you for nothing.
      
Knock - Chiroubles
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 21:03
Truckerteller écrit le Wed, 11 June 2014 20:54

Peronal attacks are not allowed, Knockando !

Well spoken, Sepp, eh, Franck ! And thank you so much for thanking us.

Stupid Sysyphus and his amateur plans.
And silly dea with your "nuanced" opinions. Surely DoW knows better. Being referee at bridge world championships and playing at the highest level qualifies you for nothing.


Sorry Truckerteller and Franck, it wasn't a personal attack, only an answer about DOW's position.

And perhaps it would have been better understood in French, but I do my best to speak english in the forum Confused

Edit : and too bad in english to understand it was irony... Crying or Very Sad

[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2014 22:03]

      
Qorlas
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Wed, 11 June 2014 21:10
Post also in French Wink
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Thu, 12 June 2014 02:11
Dea sent Franck a constructive pm as an answer to defend the credibility of a tournament online.
I obviously agree with all that has been said in this thread.
I have a lot more to say, but she covered the essential in her pm and that's good enough for the time being.

I fully support the initiative and hope DoW will consider it.

If we have not said it enough -and thx GFF for insisting on this point-.
We've always been willing to contribute in any form : to either develop the online game, to design competitive tournaments, to promote every aspect of the game, every map, to moderate ourselves, to defend the seriousness of rankings etc...
We have ideas, we have knowledge, passion and more experience tournamentwise than any local organizer... and I do believe that our proposal would not hurt the current "credibility" standards.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 June 2014 05:52]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Thu, 12 June 2014 04:47
Generally these types of events are merely done as a marketing gimmick in the guise of a competition. This championship is to market the game and its 10 year anniversary.

The prime example is WotC's Magic the Gathering million dollar "Pro" Tour. It is just a marketing play.

We already know the qualifiers, the national events, and probably even the finals in France is a joke in terms of real competition. Crowning winners by playing 3-5 multi games and using most points as a tie breaker... really?

Its more like winning the golden ticket from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory. Lots of luck.

From a legal standpoint, there could also be a reason why they don't allow an online winner to attend.

I think what is much more discouraging is DoW moving away from the computer version to only support steam and mobile/tablet versions. So going forward it will probably be harder not easier to run tournaments.



      
CIA GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Thu, 12 June 2014 05:06
Actually, I have a specific problem with Franck's answer. But, first, the organizers have the right to do (or not do) what they feel is best.

However - if the online portion is simply another event to allow one or two MORE people to qualify for the final, then I don't really see why we're so terribly worried about security beyond that which has been suggested here in this thread. IF (and that is a big IF) someone can get through security checks and some how cheat their way past all of the very good players that would likely try their hand with the online version THEN they STILL have to beat players face to face later on to get to the big prizes.

So, Franck, a better (and perhaps more truthful) answer is to say that you don't have the budgeted time or money to do this. You've already set things the way you want it and you really don't want to change now. Though I really do think you have enough qualified volunteer power in this community to pull it off where the community could vet your one/two qualifiers and then you just have to figure out what to do with those people from there. It's just like another club holding their tourney following the tourney rules you set, etc.

Now, if it is a matter of not having online maps to match the others - you know how to fix that. Wink

Rob
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ITA dandee
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Thu, 12 June 2014 08:54
hi Franck

thx for your answer but...

it would take more respect for the players online Confused .

you know how many boxes of the game have been sold in more with our mouth?

the duration of a game depends on its players
is a suggestion

cu
dan
      
LMT Hecki
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Thu, 12 June 2014 10:44
DrakeStorm schrieb am Thu, 12 June 2014 04:47

Crowning winners by playing 3-5 multi games and using most points as a tie breaker... really?


In Germany there were only 3 games - without any decision game. Luck factor was really high too. In all 3 matches i started at the last place, for example. I'm sorry to say but the TD didn't have a real idea about a well balanced organization. Sad

[Updated on: Thu, 12 June 2014 10:50]

      
CIA Truckerteller
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Thu, 12 June 2014 12:07
Fittingly, even my sarcasm goes to waste in the epic failure of a thread.

The only one who makes real sense in the thread is Drake.

DoW hasn't shown any priority or willingness to take competitive (online) play serious and that's their choice. Would be nice if they just state that, in stead of some disrespectful platitudes.

TTR is a family game, the World Championships are a marketing scheme and the less competitive or the less sports-like these events are, the more family type players will enjoy it. It's like going to the gym and having your favourite class cancelled because it was becoming to hard-core and despite the huge waiting lines and great reviews, the owners were afraid this hard core attitude might scare away the target group of happy and casual gym goers. The larger and more profitable group.

So, you can chose to still play these national events and in the end 9 out of 10 people in Paris will still be online top 200 players anyway and you may have a nice time meeting them or you can not play - like myself - because you don't want to be involved in BS. Just don't expect DoW to change anything.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Online tournament for World Championship Thu, 12 June 2014 15:35
There are 2 separate things in this thread, let's not mix things up :

1. The championship itself
We have two choices : either make concrete proposals for a tournament online by answering Franck's post, as much as they care about it, and maybe make other proposals about the final's format or the final's TD. I've never had any specific expectations, (cf the second part of this post) but we might as well give a try. Either we call it BS in the first place and do nothing about it.
I was ready to call the whole thing BS in the forum, but I saw dea's pm which was more of a constructive/useful answer.
Maybe she should post her pm here.

Franck mentionned credibility and dea, with her international bridge experience and her ttr qualifier experience, answered on that part.
Cheating is at least as likely -not to say more likely- to happen live, because there's no crowd control, because cards can be marked, and because nobody checks how the cards are dealt.
The credibility of every tournament is questionable because TD's are clueless/are elaborating custom rules.

Davidb9, who did not know anybody in a tournament (because he was not part of an association), was the odd man out and was asked to sit out during the first game of the preliminary. He was told to play one less game than others. Is not that putting the credibility of the World Championship at risk ?

Tournament Directors should have knowledge of the game with such a large prize on the line and it is not unnecessary to get multiple feedback on that regard.

About the family game part :
The World Cup of Soccer does not deter players from playing soccer for fun and it's not as if the TTR World Championship was broadcasted on ESPN either.
We could still have a credible TTR world championship without interfering in the DoW's sales in Utah (even if Utah did not seem a target of any interest without any qualifier), in Russia or in France.

2. DoW's communication with our community
Never DoW has consulted us about the format/the organization of the championship. Again they don't owe us anything...

I'd like to know if DoW does not communicate with jdrommel from Memoir 44 online/French Federation when they organize, hand in hand, a tournament. We need to create an international TTR federation to be credible or what ?
I'd like to know if jdrommel has to use the contact page like a random Ipad player to contact Days of Wonder like we do ?
Yes that indeed shows how much consideration we get from DoW.
They used to sponsor our online tournaments, to create badges for the competition winners.

Are we not legit/serious/respectful enough ? Are we not as credible as a boardgame association to organize a tournament ?

Online tournament was tossed like a smelly sock without notice.
After 10 years, does not the community (as competitive as it is) deserve more consideration from you guys ?

[Updated on: Thu, 12 June 2014 16:24]

      
MarkoPolo
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 00:31
To All,

It's obvious we made a mistake in underestimating the interest in an online qualifier for the World Championship and that we haven't done right by the community of online players. Thanks for the suggestions from Sysyphus, Qorlas, dea1 and others on how we could best run an online event, and for the offers to help run it. However, at this time we are unable to add a new qualifier to the championship. In addition to the security concerns we have, we don't have the infrastructure in place to manage an online qualifier, even with help from the community. I know this is frustrating and I'm sorry.

We are not trying to disrespect the online Ticket to Ride community, nor do we doubt your credibility or your contribution in helping to grow the popularity of the game. We need to do a better job of showing it, rather than just saying it. It has been our intention for some time to create a better tournament environment for Ticket to Ride Online. It hasn't happened, but we still plan to get there. And the next time we do a large tournament, we will get your input far enough in advance and do our best to make sure the online community can participate in a much bigger way. Again, saying it doesn't mean anything until we actually do something, so all I can ask for is your continued patience with us.

Also, thanks for the respectful posts on this topic. It's mostly been considerate and thoughtful with the aim of trying to be helpful. Much appreciated.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 05:19
Mark,

Thanks for taking some time to answer. I guess this is the kind of answer we expected originally.

Like I mentioned above, we had no real expectation for this potential tournament, we are ready to move on. However, it appeared important for us to raise some concerns not only about the tournament but also about the relationship DoW/community.

We understood that DoW had other priorities than developing the online web version in the past years, and we managed to tackle some issues by ourselves without many complaints. Our main concern was/is to see the web version -the best/only suited to play tournaments- totally disappear.
It's therefore good to read that DoW still have some kind of plans for Ticket to Ride online. I look forward to any improvement, (near or far future) and trust DoW will rely on us when necessary.

P.S. :
If there's a way to define a channel for future/better communication, that would be greatly appreciated. Having to use the contact page is pretty discouraging.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 June 2014 06:04]

      
ITA dandee
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 08:44
Tomorrow is the italy championship final

the rules says:

L'organizzazione si riserva anche di convocare a questo scopo alcuni giocatori "wild card" (ripescati dalle tappe di qualificazione più numerose) che potranno prendere il posto di eventuali giocatori assenti o ritirati.

translate:

The organization will also convene for this purpose some players "wild card" (salvaged from the qualifying stages many more) that can take the place of any absent players or withdrawn.


is correct ?
Who will they be?
from where they come?

Smile

cu and thx for the answer
dan (italy player)

[Updated on: Fri, 13 June 2014 08:44]

      
Qorlas
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 10:00
Wild cards cn be everyone.
It means that if they miss players to complete the tables they will just take the players available in the place (disregarding the qualification stage).
      
ITA dandee
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 10:17
yes i know.
but i read it in a different way.

"some of our insert it at the end"
italy style

whatever the number of players you can organize the tournament. you do not need a wild card
      
CIA Truckerteller
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 10:42
MarkoPolo wrote on Fri, 13 June 2014 00:31

To All,

It's obvious we made a mistake in underestimating the interest in an online qualifier for the World Championship and that we haven't done right by the community of online players. Thanks for the suggestions from Sysyphus, Qorlas, dea1 and others on how we could best run an online event, and for the offers to help run it. However, at this time we are unable to add a new qualifier to the championship. In addition to the security concerns we have, we don't have the infrastructure in place to manage an online qualifier, even with help from the community. I know this is frustrating and I'm sorry.

We are not trying to disrespect the online Ticket to Ride community, nor do we doubt your credibility or your contribution in helping to grow the popularity of the game. We need to do a better job of showing it, rather than just saying it. It has been our intention for some time to create a better tournament environment for Ticket to Ride Online. It hasn't happened, but we still plan to get there. And the next time we do a large tournament, we will get your input far enough in advance and do our best to make sure the online community can participate in a much bigger way. Again, saying it doesn't mean anything until we actually do something, so all I can ask for is your continued patience with us.

Also, thanks for the respectful posts on this topic. It's mostly been considerate and thoughtful with the aim of trying to be helpful. Much appreciated.



Hello Mark,

What does that mean "we don't have the infrastructure in place" ?
If you have the desire, all you need is to have a couple of constructive discussions with Sysyphus and dea1 over skype, establish some guidelines and minimum requirements and have them organize an on-line qualifier after which they will inform you about the winner and all his or her contact details. The level of play, the certainty that all rules will be followed, will both be higher than the national over the board qualifiers (most of which have been won by on-line players anyway). If there are large disputes or you have doubts about the process, you can still disregard the outcome completely.

Issues have been raised about the validity and credibility of some of the national qualifiers. Are you actively engaging in discussions with the participants and people here to figure out what happened ?

You say you have plans for improving on-line (competitive) play, can you share some of those plans ?

Are you looking to have more in-dept discussions with on-line players like Sysyphus and dea1 regarding competitive game-play via skype, e-mail or even meeting them face to face in Paris ?

Will you be looking to work together / collaborate with the on-line community to broaden the scope of the on-line game, improve its appeal and to promote competitive game-play or are you looking more for limited impersonal input via the forum?

Would you be willing to allow a limited number of select on-line representatives to be involved with organizing and programming and setting agendas for further enhancement of the on-line game ?

Thanks,
Sven

[Updated on: Fri, 13 June 2014 12:15]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 15:47
Well Truckerteller summed up all the questions we have.

Let's recap who we (in this thread) are exactly :

The competitive competition is run by an organization committee.
Dea1, Qorlas, Truckerteller and I direct online tournaments, design/discuss rules and format.
We are also responsible for the environment quality by promoting high-level competitions and high standards of behavior.
We design a tournament calendar and maintain a tournament ranking (thanks to DrakeStorm, regular contributor as a boardgame specialist).
We take into account any forum contributions but ultimately take decisions to preserve consistency.

Elric - Sancerre is associated to the committe as a consultant, dandee, onyx puffin and Knockando are associated in the organization of tournaments.

The whole community can contribute in different forms :
  • by maintaining tickipedia, the wiki portal of the online community
  • by organizing tournaments
  • by entering our tournaments
  • by being active in the forum (like GFF in this present thread).

    The tournaments (briefly):
  • 200+ active players from 20+ countries participating in our tournaments. And 400+ differents players have entered our tournaments since 2007.
  • 30,000+ tournament games (roughly 6,500 matches) on 1 vs 1. (each tournament player has also roughly played 10,000+ casual games online).
  • Leagues 1 vs 1 on US (80 players) and Euro map
  • KO-Tournament on US, Euro, Asia and Swiss map
  • Multi-player tournaments on US and Euro map
  • Nations Cup : national team event on the US map, involving 20+ national teams
  • a website gathering all the info : http://www.tickipedia.net

    If DoW is willing to discuss asap or in the near future (about future developments, and the current TTR championship), we can be reached by email or skype.
    If you wish, we can also meet either in Paris or in Los Altos.

    Thanks,
    Julien

    [Updated on: Sun, 15 June 2014 04:42]

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    AAA_dea1
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Fri, 13 June 2014 21:58
    Thanks for your promising reply, MarkoPolo,

    MarkoPolo schrieb am Fri, 13 June 2014 00:31

    To All,
    Again, saying it doesn't mean anything until we actually do something, so all I can ask for is your continued patience with us.



    No need for this modesty - let's just start talking now (see Sysphus' suggestions) and the online community will know on the spot that things are moving into the "right" direction (= the one we are hoping for).

    Talk about what?
    ... not necessarily the current World Championship, that's said and done (unless you'd like to have opinions on how to run the Final or need a TD - if so, feel free to ask)
    Talk about ...
    ... DOW's plans for the future of the online game
    ... how we can contribute to that (we have ideas/wishes of our own, maybe DOW also has ideas how we could help)
    ... ideas we have, how TTR could be promoted even more (yes, we have some, maybe DOW also has ideas how we could help)

    We are ready to start - if you are, too, just tell us how you want to do it.

    Looking forward to interesting discussions
    dea
          
    MarkoPolo
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Sat, 14 June 2014 03:10
    I don't have answers for many of the questions posted and I'm not going to address how our current national championships are run except to say that you already know we rely on groups in each region to run the events to determine the champions in their country as we are not able to manage these things ourselves. They are given leeway to organize it within the constraints we set. After the Championship, we'll review and figure out how we and they can do better, based on feedback we receive from you, from the players at the events and those who manage them.

    Regarding infrastructure, I was referring to online infrastructure that helps automate how a tournament is run and builds in some "fairness". I don't doubt that the members here can run a successful and fair competition. You've proven that. But large prize online tournaments have the potential of attracting hundreds, if not thousands of participants who could overrun the "human infrastructure" and makes for a bad experience all around.

    I can't speculate or make promises about what you could see in future versions of Ticket to Ride Online. We don't know yet. However, from a timing standpoint, we're getting together this coming week in our Paris office (half of DOW is in California/half in France) and this issue will be a topic of discussion, including how you can contribute your ideas and how we can channel your input and feedback as we work on the next phase of Ticket to Ride.

    So, more to come...

          
    Knock - Chiroubles
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Sat, 14 June 2014 14:01
    MarkoPolo écrit le Sat, 14 June 2014 03:10


    Regarding infrastructure, I was referring to online infrastructure that helps automate how a tournament is run and builds in some "fairness". I don't doubt that the members here can run a successful and fair competition. You've proven that. But large prize online tournaments have the potential of attracting hundreds, if not thousands of participants who could overrun the "human infrastructure" and makes for a bad experience all around.



    If we only allow to participate players with an online registration date before starting of the World Championsship, then the problem is solved Rolling Eyes
          
    CIA Truckerteller
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Sat, 14 June 2014 16:49
    MarkoPolo wrote on Sat, 14 June 2014 03:10



    Regarding infrastructure, I was referring to online infrastructure that helps automate how a tournament is run and builds in some "fairness". I don't doubt that the members here can run a successful and fair competition. You've proven that. But large prize online tournaments have the potential of attracting hundreds, if not thousands of participants who could overrun the "human infrastructure" and makes for a bad experience all around.




    We're talking about a qualifier for the world championship final in Paris, where one seat would be filled by the winner of an on-line tournament, which will have maybe 50-100 players. No prize money for the on-line tournament itself.
          
    Qorlas
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Sat, 14 June 2014 23:26
    Paid travel and accomodation in Paris can be seen as a prize in itself.
          
    Sysyphus - Pommard
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Mon, 16 June 2014 02:08
    Thanks Mark for your last post.

    Along with establishing a new channel of communication and finding a way to include our input in the future, it will be useful to think over our disagreement about the perception of the online player, and the difference between an online and offline player.

    Here's a quote from Eric, DoW's CEO (TTR world championship 2010 forum.)
    Quote:


    We all agree, I think, that the very best champions should be versatile players, capable of playing at a high level regardless of medium (offline or online), and regardless of format (in terms of both number of players and type of map played).


    We would still agree, I'm sure. At the condition of defining "high level" properly, and highlighting it with the appropriate format.

    I think the main misconception/disagreement resides on the other part of the comment.
    Quote:


    Just a quick note re Online vs Offline competitive play.

    It remains to be seen - and we look forward to the day where we can test in the real world Very Happy - whether the best online players also turn out to be the best offline players or not.
    Based on our own experience observing a large number of offline and online games played at a competitive level (and not just for Ticket to Ride but also for other games), it is not clear that would be the case.


    Eric publicly confirmed that statement last year by taking the example of Ian Vincent who finished 2nd in the TTR World Championship 2010.
    While describing the online player in 2013 as : a cocky guy who should be exempt of qualifiers because of his 80,000 online game experience.(just because thekid was commenting on that same thread, a bit of nuance would have been welcome).

    Let's set aside the style and have a look at the content :
    TTR World Championship 2010.
    8 players. 3 online (Patterson, Pegaso, Heizer), 5 offline.
    Format :
    1st round : 3 multis : Marklin, Europe, US
    2nd round : SF/Finale 2p USA bo3

    Final result :
    Winner : Patterson (online player).
    Finalist : Ian Vincent : lost clearly 2-0
    3rd place : Pegaso
    4th place : Krysztian (offline from Poland) : lost 2-0

    Semi Final :
    Patterson vs Pegaso : 2-1
    Ian Vincent vs Krystian (Poland) : 2-0
    Then, we can quickly notice that offline players were playing each other while both online players were in the other semi-final. It seems unlikely that Ian Vincent would have beat Pegaso on 1 vs 1.

    Groups :
    3 multis US, Euro and Marklin.
    Remark: 3 multis only, which is not clearly a format which promotes high level.
    We can suppose that Ian Vincent benefited from the bracket, and maybe from the format.
    Looking at the tournament final standings, disregarding the relevance of the format, we can state Ian Vincent was better than Heizer 65.
    However, had he played pegaso in semis, we can assume that he would have been 3rd.
    Either way, we can not really say that Ian Vincent was better than Pegaso nor that an offline player can compete on a regular basis with an online player.
    And anyway, an online player won it all.


    Let's still suppose that Ian Vincent was at the level of the online players.

    National championship 2014 :
    Italy
    78 players, 3 online players among them
    They all finished in top 4 : 1st, 2nd, 4th.

    France
    45 players, 10 online among them
    Top 5 exclusively online

    Austria
    29 players, 4 online present
    All 4 in final top 5.

    Finland
    1 online player
    Winner

    Czech Republic/Slovakia
    1 online
    Winner

    German-speaking Switzerland
    21 players, 3 online players
    All 3 online players in top 4 qualified in the national Championship

    UK
    Final including 2 online players.

    Germany
    Only country that we have heard of an offline player beating online players. But 3-game only format.

    I have not heard from Spain, Netherlands, Belgium or Greece where online players may be involved.
    Baltic Countries, Bulgaria, Norway, Australia, Japan, South Africa have no players online.
    USA will have 1 online player, among 60 playing Mega in final (might as well roll the die).

    National championships in 2014 show a clear pattern of domination. Looking at all these numbers, online players dominated 95% of the offline crowd. Not quite the "90% of the players that got their clock cleaned when they actually played the physical board game".
    To single out Ian Vincent as the average offline player without analyzing his performance is not very relevant in my opinion.

    [Updated on: Mon, 16 June 2014 07:48]

          
    AAA_dea1
    Senior Member
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    September 2005
    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Mon, 16 June 2014 09:29
    adding Austria:

    29 players, 4 of them online players.
    3 of the online players met at table 1 in the last round, the 4th was on table 2 (being 5th - and eventually finished 2nd after winning his table in the last match).
    First 3 places went to online players.
    The non-online player on table 1 later turned out to have had an online account in earlier days.

    ---

    anyone up for a challenge online/offline (with a reasonable amount of games to make for a clear result)?

    [Updated on: Mon, 16 June 2014 09:30]

          
    CIA Truckerteller
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Mon, 16 June 2014 13:06
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFj8Gw4maXg

    From minute 41:47, Eric Hautemont discusses TTR online vs. offline

    "over 90% of people who play on-line and have that attitude got their <something> cleaned when they actually played the physical boardgame"

    Which - as we can see from the results - is compete BS.

    "and the guy says: 'There is an advantage to whoever starts first' and I say ' well yes, there is a theoretical advantage', hahaha, I think that kind of sums up my view about those"

    Starting advantage for competitive 2P game on the US map is probably about 60% between two players of more or less equal level, so nothing to be sneezed at, certainly not when you play for big money.

    At the heart of the "problem" lies a difference in viewpoint about the competitive nature of TTR:

    Boardgame clubs and DoW management sees is at a "game" where paying 3 multi's and bo3 2 player is more than enough to distinguish and people who are "players" and can read minds in real life ("had only played five games") can do about just as well as on-line players.

    The way "we" see things is more like bridge or chess (which are mind sports), where after learning the basic rules (when it's still a game for children learning chess), you can improve much more by playing a lot, learning the nuances, seeing what others do in certain situations, etc. Given that the game has a lot of luck/chance to it, we need much more than 3 multi's to make any kind of distinguishment between good and very good play, just like bridge usually has 64 rounds of play. Certainly, the best chess and bridge players are the best on-line as well as off-line. In poker, there might be a bit more of a nuance, probably, but the "bluff" component is 100x larger there then in TTR and still, the best players on-line and off-line will still have huge overlap.

    [Updated on: Mon, 16 June 2014 14:05]

          
    AAA_dea1
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    September 2005
    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Mon, 16 June 2014 17:56
    Eric's reasoning is understandable, but I don't think it's applicable here.

    Somebody who never played on the board, may not be good at

    1) maintaining "poker face" (so the other players may see when he has a problem, is unhappy that the guy before him just took the open black card, maybe he even looks into the direction of his destinations on the map)

    2) "table presence" (so he doesn't realize if an opponent isn't perfect on 1), while others do)

    3) coping with the additional pressure that comes from the physical presence of other players and kibitzers

    I think that's not applicable because I don't believe the good online players were "born as online players".
    I know most of the top players well, have met many in person - they all started on the board and still play a lot of board games (TTR and others) with their friends (or at meetings organized within the TTR community).
    We discovered the online game thanks to the webcode on the back of the box and then added TTR online to the things we play.
    Maybe this will change for a "next generation" of players who start playing online instead of meeting friends Rolling Eyes
    The "old generation" should have no problem with 1+2+3 and has the additional advantage of having played many more games (because online is a lot faster and available anytime you want to play) and having watched many more games from other good players.


    As Truckerteller mentions "mind sports": I think, if we introduced duplicate (players of "corresponding matches" play with the decks for tickets and cards sorted in the same order), TTR could indeed be perceived (and promoted Wink ) as a mind sport.
    (btw: Is the most played game really Monopoly? I would have expected Go or Chess)
          
    onyx puffin MAD
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    January 2005
    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Mon, 16 June 2014 19:05
    Truckerteller wrote on Mon, 16 June 2014 07:06

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFj8Gw4maXg

    From minute 41:47, Eric Hautemont discusses TTR online vs. offline

    "over 90% of people who play on-line and have that attitude got their <something> cleaned when they actually played the physical boardgame"

    Which - as we can see from the results - is compete BS.



    Online vs offline is an intriguing discussion not because of strategy notes like the poker face; but really, is it not Eric's job to sell board games? Come on, how much money do they make with the online game? So of course Eric would need to defend and push the physical board game.

    Of course, maybe I should start a thread asking 'top 500 players' how many of the TTR board games do we own? (or maybe DoW games) I know I personally own 5 types of TTR board games, and have had probably 50 more friends purchase them. My point, Eric & DoW staff, we are believers in TTR and DoW. We can be your best supporters and promoters.

          
    Sysyphus - Pommard
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Tue, 02 September 2014 16:39
    MrNumbers wrote on Tue, 02 September 2014 15:50

    I participated in our national Ticket to Ride championship in Latvia this Saturday. I think that the format used in the tournament is wrong.
    We were 9 participants, played on 3 tables, 3 players on each. 2 games were played, one on USA map and 1 on Europe map. I won both games. But 3 finalists were determined by the sum of points from two games and by that factor I remained 4th. Maybe it is the only championship in the world where you can win all qualifying games and don't get to the finals! Shocked There could be technically 3 people from one table, if they agreed not to disturb each other! My point of view is that we should count points from two games, yes, but at every table separately! But we have situation when from my table nobody qualified for the final and from other tables accordingly 2 and 1 player.
    What do you think? Is it fair format? Should I write a complaint to the "Days of Wonder" HQ? Confused


    Even non-online players do not understand.
          
    ITA dandee
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    November 2008
    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Tue, 02 September 2014 18:27
    absurd.

    the main problem, it is also true for Italy, is that those who organized the national qualification does not know the game.
    They sell it but do not know it because they consider it a simple game.

    But is its simplicity, which is connected to the strategy, which makes it special. Such as checkers or chess.

    [Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 18:29]

          
    ITA dandee
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    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Tue, 02 September 2014 18:29
    But is its simplicity, which is connected to the strategy, which makes it special. Such as checkers or chess
          
    peterhowitt
    Junior Member

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    November 2009
    Re:Online tournament for World Championship Sun, 07 September 2014 22:17
    I thought I would get involved, as I guess I can see both sides of the debate. I participated in 2010 World Champs and came second in the UK to Ian Vincent. I helped Ian prepare for the Worlds and it is ridiculous to say that Ian had only played five games.

    He hadn't played a lot of 2-player so I helped him practise that. I think it is impossible to say that he would definitely have lost to pegaso as obviously tickets and colours could have gone in his favour. I learnt a lot from Ian about thinking more mathematically about the game. He has also given a lot back with the excellent Indian map, so I don't think it is fair to denigrate him because of Eric's bizarre comments.

    However, I completely agree that the standard of challenge I have faced online is higher than it was in the recent 2014 UK Championships (Ishmael and the runner-up Peter D excepted). It's obvious that playing more games against a higher standard of opposition, as online play allows, will make you better. So Eric goes too far. But equally we should all be humble in what we claim, so that there is not a perception of arrogance to fuel silly claims.
          
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