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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Tue, 17 January 2006 20:38
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I just received notification that GMT has shipped C&C Ancients, I should receive it on Friday. w00t!! I have been looking forward to this game for awhile now, to the point I decided to purchase some books on the second Punic Wars, or more precisely, Hannibal vs. Rome. I believe most of the battles depicted in the game are of theis period, although other ancient wars and battles are explored as well. I needed to expand my library some anyway, heh heh.
If you are interested, you can go to http://www.gmtgames.com for some cool screen shots, scenario listing, rules, etc. The game sells for $55, although the price is due to go up soon, to $65 I think. Look under the "Project 500" link.
Cheers, and here's looking forward to smashing puny Roman Legions with African Elephants and Numidian Cavalry... yea!!
[Updated on: Fri, 20 January 2006 01:05]
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Gojira
Posts: 165
Registered:
June 2004
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Tue, 17 January 2006 23:14
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I'd be willing to bet you're going to love the game. It uses the same basic mechanisms but you have to modify you're tactics (units can battle back, etc...) I've been painting units in 28mm for it and have about 13 Roman unit done so far. There's still a lot of miniatures to go. I've got enough lead to do the Carthagenians but haven't had the time to paint them.  Oh well, just have to prioritize.
http://www.displacedminiatures.com/Gojira/images.aspx?galler y_id=552&from=Historical
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caroper
Posts: 166
Registered:
April 2004
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Tue, 17 January 2006 23:44
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Yep, they were African elephants, which kind of makes sense when you consider that Carthage was located on the coast of the Mediterrainean Sea, in modern day Tunisia, on the northern coast of Africa. The elephants were a great shock to the Roman soldier at first, but the awe did not last. Elephants could make things bad for an enemy army, but on occasion, they would panic and turn against their own army, causing as much or more damage to friends.
Along with the elephants, the Numidian cavalry, also recruited from Africa, was Hannibal's greatest asset, and proved it's worth many times over. It was this arm that gave Hannibal his flexibility, and it took the Romans many years to overcome this advantage. When they finally did, it was by employing Numidian cavalry themselves!
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caroper
Posts: 166
Registered:
April 2004
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Gojira
Posts: 165
Registered:
June 2004
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Wed, 18 January 2006 00:37
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The elephants were a sub-species of the African elephants we're used to and were much smaller forest dwelling animals.
caroper- As far as the figures go, I definately think the smaller figures would be able to give you the mass look you're looking for. I think GW actually makes Romans now for WHB in 10mm. Richard uses older, true 25's for his with 4 figures to a stand and 4 stands per unit. That definately does the trick but would require me to paint up 3 times the number of figures. I compromised with 3 on the command stand and 3 figures mounted individually for the remainder for each infantry unit. We play on a much larger board with 5 inch hexes and if fills them up fine. You might also want to consider 1/72 plastics which are available in a wide variety of figures at reasonable prices.
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Wed, 18 January 2006 00:50
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Well, after poking around a little more, I couldn't find the rules either. I did see some reference to them somewhere, but even the site hosted by Wargamer.com doesn't post the rules that I could see. My apologies, I guess I misled you there.
On a bright note, there is a complete battle setup for ZAMA, one of the last battles of the Second Punic War, fought near Carthage. You can see how the units are lined up for battle and there is a brief historical note, but no special rules are detailed. The Romans won a decisive battle here and so ended Hannibal's military career. He survived and went into politics, always fighting for his country in one way or another.
[Updated on: Mon, 06 February 2006 05:50]
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Sbrooks
Posts: 20
Registered:
August 2003
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Wed, 18 January 2006 01:38
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Wow, I'm excited about this one! I played a prototype at the WBC back in 2001, and I thought it was hands-down the best boardgame I'd ever played. I didn't realize it would take almost five years to arrive, but it'll be worth the long wait.
I doubt you'll see a set of rules available for download - it would be too easy for someone to take the rules and make their own 'bootleg' copy.
As for the miniatures, I've been collecting 1/72 plastic miniatures for several years just for C&C:Ancients, so I'll have quite a bit of painting to do...
I hope this game is as sucessful as the previous two (Battlecry and Memoir '44). I'd love to see some of the other variants produced as well.
My copy is scheduled to arrive Thursday! 
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Provence
Posts: 101
Registered:
October 2004
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Wed, 18 January 2006 02:25
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I can't wait for you guys to write a review of this game! I loved Battle Cry, think that Memoir is better and assume hard to beat. So I wonder how good Ancients is going to be and how it will compare?
The time period is less popular than WWII so the following should be smaller I imagine... Is that why DOW didn't produce this game?
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Brice
Posts: 1916
Registered:
October 2002
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Wed, 18 January 2006 09:33
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Sorry guys, I know this is your passion, but this is really off-topic, so I moved the thread there.
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Wed, 18 January 2006 14:37
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NP, I should have put it there to begin with, my apologies. 
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Wed, 18 January 2006 16:43
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Remember, DoW did not produce Battlecry! either, that was done by Wizards of the Coast and Avalon Hill. Richard may just be diversifying by publishing games with different companies, so all his eggs aren't in one basket, so to speak.
Whatever the case may be, it is still the same great basic game system, and I'm sure with Ancients it will be just as fun, even if the historical basis is not as well-read as WW2 happens to be. It is not too difficult to familiarize oneself with this time period, simply Google for "Hannibal Barca" or "Second Punic War" and you can read all day long if you so desire.
As a student of miltary history, I find that almost any era is of interest, and certainly modern warfare is based on all the wars that came before, and the lessons learned (and not learned) as a result.
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Robin
Posts: 751
Registered:
November 2004
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Thu, 19 January 2006 16:07
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I recieved C&C Ancients two days ago.
Very interesting.
Twelve different units, and some sophisticated mechanics (Evading an attack, battling back, elephant rampaging).
The presence of leaders is very important, as some cards make them move groups of units.
Holding a line is also something usefull, as having two adjacent friendly units makes you ignore the first flag...
These and other features helps players respect the Antique (or Middle Ages) combat rules : keep in line, beware enemy units turning your line from behind, etc.
It takes a little more time to learn the game, but I do find it really exciting !
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Off Topic - C&C Ancients is shipping!!
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Thu, 19 January 2006 23:48
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Aw jeez... I still have to wait one more day... ooohhh!! 
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Provence
Posts: 101
Registered:
October 2004
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Fri, 20 January 2006 02:33
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It does sound really exciting!!! I like it when there is a historical feel. Memoir does a really good job for sure.
Can't wait for the full reviews. Maybe I'll have to order it too...
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Robin
Posts: 751
Registered:
November 2004
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Fri, 20 January 2006 20:47
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UPS tracking info says my copy is "Out for delivery"... w00t!! I'll have it sometime today, I can hardly wait. Thanks for the insight Robin, except that it only increases my anxiety levels. 
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Sat, 21 January 2006 22:59
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Ok, finally got C&C:Ancients and I am pretty pleased. The game looks like it is going to be a lot of fun to play. The blocks are smaller than I imagined, but they are quite adequate for game play. I will post a few initial thoughts on the components, as I have not yet found time to try a scenario out.
The packaging is excellent, with the box being even heavier cardboard than either BC or M44. The artwork is nice and the inside box has some of the command cards printed on it, along with a nice map of the Mediterrainean and surrounding territories as they appeared in this era. The weight of the contents is noticable right off the bat, and you see why as soon as you open the box and look inside. There is a huge bag of wooden blocks, brown, grey and black in color. Brown is for the Carthaginians, grey for the Romans, and black for various markers/tokens. There are three sheets of terrain tiles, double-sided, five sheets of stickers, two excellent reference sheets, a rule book, a 60-card deck and seven black plastic dice.
The rule book is immediately familiar as soon as you begin reading, to those who have played any of the C&C games, that is. It is well presented with plenty of examples for movement and combat. There are ten scenarios presented in the back of the rulebook, and if you were lucky enough to pre-order, you get an additional three scenarios in a seperate booklet.
Remember all the blocks and stickers mentioned earlier? Can you say "Some assembly required" kids? A lone preson can expect to spend from 3-5 hours putting the stickers on the blocks and dice, depending on how picky you are about the placement of the stickers. My girlfriend and I did them all in just over 2 hours, so you might want to get a friend to help. Be aware that there are quite a few "spare" stickers, and when assembling the various units, keep count of the blocks for each type so you don't mistakenly use all your blocks on the wrong unit stickers. As you might imagine, we ran into this problem and had to destroy a few stickers to get the right number of blocks for each unit. Live and learn, I guess. We still have spare stickers. There will also be a few spare blocks for each side.
The only real disappointment in the whole package was the battlefield (gameboard), which is only made of cardboard, although it is kind of thick cardboard. It is flimsy and tends to bow up, and it will take some work to get it to lie flat properly. I plan to use my BattleCry board when I play the game, as the boards are very similar in appearance. I don't really care for the one that came with Ancients. That really is my only gripe, however. The gameboard is the same size as M44 and BC gameboards, so you could use any board and tiles you may have.
Overall, I think it is a great product and is worth the price of entry... if you like the game system and have any interest in this time period. There will be more scenario booklets released in the future, according to the rules, so look forward to many hours of fun with a new edition to the "Commands and Colors" family of games!
[Updated on: Mon, 23 January 2006 00:45]
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Robin
Posts: 751
Registered:
November 2004
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Sun, 22 January 2006 09:15
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About the mapboard, as the terrain modification hexagons are thinner than in M44, I place a plexiglass sheet over it.
It smoothes the cringes and makes the hexagons stay in place.
One good thing with the wooden blocks, is that they take less place within the hexes (compared to the hvy tank units in M44 where you must squeeze 4 tanks within a hex).
I played (solo, just to learn the mechanics) the three first scenarios...
Retreat can be devastating! As some units must retreat more than one hex per flag (up to four if light cavalry) and loose one block per hex they cannot retreat into, they often are destroyed that way.
If you can "turn" an enemy line and block its retreat, he is dead meat.
The Battling back option makes some attacks very costly : if you attack hvy infantry with light infantry, for an example. The light inf rolls two dice. If there is no retreat result, the heavies back swing with five dice!
With simple and innovative mechanics, Richard Borg manages to lead players not to try moves that no Roman or Carthaginian commander would have dared to try...
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Mon, 23 January 2006 00:54
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Yes, the gameplay looks a bit more involved, and I might add that this is the first C&C game to be published with an actual CRT (Combat Results Table). That says something for the added game mechanics.
There are twelve different units plus leaders, and each one has it's own set of movement and comabt rules. Terrain is minimal, with hills, rivers, beaches, forrests, broken ground, ramparts and fortified camps. Movement and combat restrictions wil be familiar in most cases, although ramparts are more like the field works found in Battlecry than the sandbags in M44.
I am setting up my first battle to give the game a test-drive, I'll have more info to post later on.
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Mon, 23 January 2006 06:43
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Alright, I gotta say this game is really cool. The girlfriend and I played the first battle twice, once from each side. We both won as the Syracusans, but she took more medals as the Carthagininas than I did, so she won overall. This game is a blast, and it really makes you appreciate what warfare must have been like back then.
I did not draw cards that allowed me to make a concerted effort anywhere as the Carthaginians. After forming a line in the center with my auxilia supported on the right by heavy infantry and a leader, I attacked with ranged weapons and scored minor damage. My opponent immediately followed up with a close combat assault with heavy infantry mauling my auxilia. My center crumbled, I lost Himilcar in the fighting, along with the game.
As the Romans, I did much better. I was able to move all of my units into one continuous line from left to right using a double-time card for the heavies and a couple of light unit cards. Then I played a Line Command card, which allowed me to order my entire army at once!! This was an amazingly powerful move, setting my forces up for an eventual win. However, once battle was joined, we learned quickly how effective battling back can be. As the battle progressed, two holes were punched in my line (giving my opponent two victory tokens in the process), although in the end the Carthaginian center was massacred, so no real harm came from it. After this the Carthaginians tried to reform a line from their shattered units, but ranged attacks from my light infantry along with a final heavy assault on the Carthaginian leader won the day!
OBSERVATIONS:
Retreating can devestate unit cohesivness, try to keep your units in line as much as possible to gain the morale bonus (ignore one flag). This means a unit must have two friendly units in any two adjacent hexes. Many units must retreat 2 or more hexes for each flag rolled, or in the case of light cavalry, it's 4 hexes for each flag!! I lost my light cavalry once tonight because my opponent rolled two flags against them and they could only retreat 4 hexes (ouch!). Lose one figure for each hex you cannot retreat, cavalry are only three units max.
The new Evade rule is interesting, but I am struggling with deciding when to use it. I guess best would be when a unit on a flank is being attacked by a superior unit, this might be an effective tactic. Using Evade with a unit in the middle of a line makes less sense, as that would then leave you with two new flank hexes to worry about (at least), and you lose the morale bonus for those units on the wings of each new, seperate line. The only other instance I could see is if you have a leader with a weak unit and want to try to save it (assuming it doesn't get wiped out before you get to evade).
Evade Rule: (Only occurs during close combat, you may never evade ranged attacks)The attacking unit gets to battle against the evading unit first, then if the evading unit is not wiped out and doesn't have to retreat, it can evade 1-2 hexes towards it's side of the board. In the case of an evading leader, it can evade 1-3 hexes. The defending player must announce he wishes to evade befor the opposing player rolls battle dice, and the evading unit cannot battle back at this point, even it is still adjacent to the attacking unit after evading. Not all units can evade.
It is going to take some time to get used to this kind of warfare, and the new game mechanics. Even so, I think we have a winner here, Richard Borg has done a fine job once again.
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Robin
Posts: 751
Registered:
November 2004
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Mon, 23 January 2006 08:57
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I sent Richard Borg a question and a remark, but he hasn't answered yet...
About Firing/Close Combat vs a lone leader : I presume that the "leader" result on the die/dice counts even if the firing/combating unit is not with/adjacent to a leader ?
The first bonus scenario has a Carthaginian ambush under Mago's orders : the scenario depicts Roman units for these troops, and has medium infantry in the place of cavalry.
I would follow the Scenario's written special rule, considering the graphics as an error.
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Cantata
Posts: 444
Registered:
May 2005
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Mon, 23 January 2006 16:13
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That is my interpretation, Robin. When attacking a lone leader, you roll one die, looking for the Helmet symbol to score a hit. The attacking unit type does not matter, and it is not required to have a friendly leader nearby. This really points out how important it is to keep your leaders well protected, as they can fall quite easily to any unit on the battlefield! I have yet to see a leader get eliminated from a leader casualty check (2 die) during combat, but I have eliminated a lone leader after clearing his hex of other supporting units.
I will look at the scenario you mentioned, although now that I think of it, I haven't even looked inside the bonus mission booklet at all, yet! Doh!! I guess I must be slacking...
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ColtsFan76
Posts: 3326
Registered:
February 2006
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Sun, 30 April 2006 15:18
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Where is a good place to meet other players and discuss this game? I finally got a copy of the game this week and just finished placing all the stickers. But I want to play on VASSAL. Just can't seem to find a good place to do that. GMT does not have the boards like DOW does. Any thoughts?
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Robin
Posts: 751
Registered:
November 2004
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Sun, 30 April 2006 18:54
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| ColtsFan76 écrit le Sun, 30 April 2006 15:18 |
Where is a good place to meet other players and discuss this game? I finally got a copy of the game this week and just finished placing all the stickers. But I want to play on VASSAL. Just can't seem to find a good place to do that. GMT does not have the boards like DOW does. Any thoughts?
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The boardgamegeek forum is the one I use (and you can find the VASSAL module somewhere there too) :
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geekforum.php3?action=gameforum index&gameid=14105
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ColtsFan76
Posts: 3326
Registered:
February 2006
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Re:Commands & Colors: Ancients is shipping!!
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Sun, 30 April 2006 19:38
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Thanks! I frequent BGG but haven't posted info - I'll have to give it a try. I do have the VASSAL mod already loaded.
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ColtsFan76
Posts: 3326
Registered:
February 2006
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