Five Tribes Five Tribes

Forums

Search
Forums » BattleLore - English » Line of sight disagreement
Show: Today's Posts 
  
AuthorTopic
Apreche
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Registered:
January 2007
  Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 19:47
We bought and started playing BattleLore yesterday. In the course of playing we had a question that many other players also seem to have. Can archers shoot out of woods? I have searched this forum, BGG and other websites, and everyone says that archers can indeed shoot out of the woods. I have no problem with that rule, as it makes a lot of sense. If I were designing this game, that is the rule I would make. However, I still have a problem.

The problem I have is that the rules as written in the BattleLore Player's Guide indicate very clearly that archers can not shoot out of woods. I have thoroughly scoured the rulebook for any line of text to indicate that this is incorrect. I also spent all morning searching the web, and I was unable to find any official errata to indicate otherwise. If I am wrong simply because I have done a poor job of searching, please set me straight.

Let me quote the text in the rulebook concerning line of sight.

Quote:

...imagine a line drawn from the center of the hex containing the battling unit to the center of the hex containing the enemy target. This line of sight is considered blocked if any hex (or part of a hex) intercepting this imaginary line segment contains an obstruction...The terrain in the target hex does not block line of sight.


The rules as written are very clear on this issue. If you have a unit in woods then the line segment from the center of that hex to the center of the target hex intercepts part of a hex containing an obstruction. There is a specific exception made for obstructions in the target hex, but no exception made for obstructions in the hex containing the battling unit. Therefore, according to the rules as written in my copy of the BattleLore Player's Guide, archers can not fire out of woods because line of sight is blocked.

The rules in the book are crystal clear. There is no official errata that I can find. How come everyone on every forum disagrees with the rule as written? I agree that the rules should allow archers to fire out of woods, but they do not. People on forums saying that they can is good enough for me, but it will not appease a rules lawyer. Without some sort of official confirmation, archers firing out of woods can only be considered a house rule. Please tell me how it is that you know the rules in the book are wrong?

Sorry if anyone gets the wrong impression from this post. My friends and I are avid players of Eurogames. As a result, we are very particular about the rules. Overall the rulebook of BattleLore is exceptional. The fact that only one rule in the book is under dispute shows just how well-written the rules are. I just need something to say to rules lawyers who claim that archers can't fire out of woods. At this point in time if I argue with them, I will not be able to win because the rulebook is on their side.
      
ntaatgen
Member

Posts: 52
Registered:
February 2005
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 20:08
I'm afraid my only advice is not to play games with rules lawyers.
      
gheintze
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 952
Registered:
August 2004
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 20:13
A common feature of the Commands and Colors line of games is their simplicity -- i.e. don't make things more complicated than they need to be. Unless an exception is specifically stated, the general rules apply.

It never states that archers cannot shoot out of woods -- therefore they can. Of course, they can only use a maximum of two dice when battling out of the woods (this applies to all units).

In fact, a common strategy in the first scenario is to move the archers into the woods and use them to pick off the French. They suffer no reduction in dice rolled, but pick up the defense that the forest affords.

To answer your question succintly -- Archers can battle out of the woods.

Hope this helps,

Geoff
      
jayr13
Member

Posts: 46
Registered:
March 2006
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 20:15
If you look at the terrain piece summary card you will see that it says battle out and in at 2 dice.
      
gheintze
Senior Member
Brigadier General

User Pages
Posts: 952
Registered:
August 2004
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 20:28
Also, terrain in both the target and attacking units hexes does not block line of sight.

Geoff
      
servando
Member

Posts: 57
Registered:
June 2006
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 20:37
Well, if you count the hex that units are, no unit can attack because units block line of sight so they are blocking themselves.
      
Apreche
Junior Member

Posts: 2
Registered:
January 2007
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 23:19
servando wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 14:37

Well, if you count the hex that units are, no unit can attack because units block line of sight so they are blocking themselves.

Ah! There we have a decent explanation. Thank you. Now I know that the rule is correct.

However, I still contend that the rules are worded poorly in this instance. Read each word in the line of sight section very clearly. According to the rules written there, nobody can make ranged attacks!
      
ColtsFan76
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 3326
Registered:
February 2006
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 08 January 2007 23:26
servando wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 13:37

Well, if you count the hex that units are, no unit can attack because units block line of sight so they are blocking themselves.

Exactly. The assumption is that the hex you are on does not block line of sight. This has been the case in all the C&C games and I don't think any other rulebook states in the way you suggest.

The reason you draw the imaginary line from the hex you are on is only to establish the centerline. It is not determined for the LOS.
      
yangtze
DoW Content Provider
Major

User Pages
Posts: 1842
Registered:
July 2005
Re:Line of sight disagreement Tue, 09 January 2007 01:00
The LOS doesn't intercept the hex they're in, it originates there Smile

[Updated on: Tue, 09 January 2007 01:00]

      
BeerNbabes
Member

Posts: 34
Registered:
December 2006
Re:Line of sight disagreement Tue, 09 January 2007 01:55
Apreche wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 13:47

We bought and started playing BattleLore yesterday. In the course of playing we had a question that many other players also seem to have. Can archers shoot out of woods? I have searched this forum, BGG and other websites, and everyone says that archers can indeed shoot out of the woods. I have no problem with that rule, as it makes a lot of sense. If I were designing this game, that is the rule I would make. However, I still have a problem.

The problem I have is that the rules as written in the BattleLore Player's Guide indicate very clearly that archers can not shoot out of woods. I have thoroughly scoured the rulebook for any line of text to indicate that this is incorrect. I also spent all morning searching the web, and I was unable to find any official errata to indicate otherwise. If I am wrong simply because I have done a poor job of searching, please set me straight.

Let me quote the text in the rulebook concerning line of sight.

Quote:

...imagine a line drawn from the center of the hex containing the battling unit to the center of the hex containing the enemy target. This line of sight is considered blocked if any hex (or part of a hex) intercepting this imaginary line segment contains an obstruction...The terrain in the target hex does not block line of sight.


The rules as written are very clear on this issue. If you have a unit in woods then the line segment from the center of that hex to the center of the target hex intercepts part of a hex containing an obstruction. There is a specific exception made for obstructions in the target hex, but no exception made for obstructions in the hex containing the battling unit. Therefore, according to the rules as written in my copy of the BattleLore Player's Guide, archers can not fire out of woods because line of sight is blocked.

The rules in the book are crystal clear. There is no official errata that I can find. How come everyone on every forum disagrees with the rule as written? I agree that the rules should allow archers to fire out of woods, but they do not. People on forums saying that they can is good enough for me, but it will not appease a rules lawyer. Without some sort of official confirmation, archers firing out of woods can only be considered a house rule. Please tell me how it is that you know the rules in the book are wrong?

Sorry if anyone gets the wrong impression from this post. My friends and I are avid players of Eurogames. As a result, we are very particular about the rules. Overall the rulebook of BattleLore is exceptional. The fact that only one rule in the book is under dispute shows just how well-written the rules are. I just need something to say to rules lawyers who claim that archers can't fire out of woods. At this point in time if I argue with them, I will not be able to win because the rulebook is on their side.


Following your reasoning, then archers can't shoot off ramparts, off elevated terrain, or out of landmarks that block line of site. What your implying is if an archer occupies a hex that blocks line of site, then that archer unit can't make a ranged attck.
It's implied that archers can shoot out of woods, just as they can shoot into them. And I think implied pretty well.
      
eric
-= Crew =-
Advanced Combat Training

User Pages
Posts: 3196
Registered:
October 2002
Re:Line of sight disagreement Tue, 09 January 2007 03:35
To appease your friends, you can now consider all the above answers official: Very Happy

The terrain hex from which a unit is shooting forth does not come into effect any more than the terrain hex it is shooting into.

All that matters are the terrain hexes (and units) that are strictly in between the attacker's hex and the target hex.

This being said, I am indeed afraid rules lawyering will not be conducing to a fun experience with this game. Rolling Eyes

Eric @ DoW
      
constant-whiner
Member

Posts: 58
Registered:
February 2007
Re:Line of sight disagreement Fri, 11 May 2007 08:39
I totally agree with Apreche. I also have the English copy of Battlelore and indeed the rules are very clear. According to the rules an archer unit can't fire out of a forest. In fact in my group we view the fact that an exception is made for the target hex (but not for the source hex) as an additional indication that the source hex does indeed block line of sight.
I agree that it makes far more sense for archers to be able to shot out of woods but the rule must be stated in an unambiguous manner in an official errata.
      
Shadrack
Junior Member

Posts: 6
Registered:
May 2007
Re:Line of sight disagreement Fri, 11 May 2007 19:26
I had the same issue, and actually, from a more realistic standpoint, shooting out of a forest (on the edges of the forest to remain hidden) would be allowed as it is easy to see your "in the open" target from the shadows of the forest edge, than it would be the other way round. It would have made more sense to me to have there be no punishment on battle dice shooting out, but a battle dice reduction for shooting in. The forest also provides coverage. This of course only for ranged units. Regular units battle as in the rules, 2D restriction on battle dice.

I also thought that elevated terrain could have added +1 to the range of the bowmen, making it a sought after point. Higher terrain, longer range. Could also have had it that line of sight is fine as long as the forest/unit that might have blocked it is closer than (round down) 1/2 the distance between the target and attacker. Doesn't block if 2 or less away from the attacker who is shooting at a target 4 away. Blocks if it is 3 away.
Why would a red unit on elevated terrain (advantage I would think) get restricted to 3 dice on an attack? Would have thought that the unit attacking a unit in elevated terrain suffers a -1 battle dice would have been easier and made more sense.

Just my thoughts.

[Updated on: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:27]

      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
Registered:
August 2005
Re:Line of sight disagreement Sun, 13 May 2007 19:14
So you can fire into woods then, since you don't count your target's terrain?
      
ColtsFan76
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 3326
Registered:
February 2006
Re:Line of sight disagreement Sun, 13 May 2007 20:44
player142544 wrote on Sun, 13 May 2007 12:14

So you can fire into woods then, since you don't count your target's terrain?

For Line of Site (LOS) you don't count the terrain that your unit and your target units stands on. (Hills get a little bit tricky, but that is a whole 'nother thread).

For die reductions in combat, though, any terrain you or your opponent is standing on does count.
      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
Registered:
August 2005
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 14 May 2007 13:56
So you can fire into hills? Smile
      
ColtsFan76
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 3326
Registered:
February 2006
Re:Line of sight disagreement Mon, 14 May 2007 14:07
player142544 wrote on Mon, 14 May 2007 06:56

So you can fire into hills? Smile

If your target is on a hill and you are not, and there is no other LOS-blocking terrain between the two of you, Yes, you may fire into hills.

But since Hills are elevated, they have their own host of special condtions. SO it can be confusing. Like I said, it a whole 'nother thread:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=87884&a mp;rid=212090&S=70cda0bfca03d41186945e6c82ce00b9#msg_878 84

And even a special scenario created just to give visual examples:
http://www.battlelore.com/index.php?t=battlelore_editor& sub=view&id=1064&returnto=app&game=&rid=2120 90&S=70cda0bfca03d41186945e6c82ce00b9
      
    
Previous Topic:Historical and Fantasy setting for BattleLore
Next Topic:36 days and finally a new blog post!
Goto Forum: