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Black Barney
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  Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Mon, 12 February 2007 18:04
If I want to attack a unit in Shadow Walk and I play a Battlelore as my command card, do I get to roll two dice against the target that's in Shadow Walk? (1d + 1 for the battlelore?)? Or do units in shadow walk ALWAYS only get 1d rolled against them regardless of other lore cards being played?
      
Caboose
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Command card vs Lore and/or Lore tokens, which takes precedence ? Mon, 12 February 2007 18:34
Based on looking at the Shadow Walk Lore Cards Compendium, there is an answer in regards to Lore cards (The Lore card overrides the Shadow Walk. You roll the number of dice specified by the card just played)

Thus in regards to your last part of the question, the answer is the new Lore card overrides the # of dice you roll on Shadow Walk.

But BattleLore itself is a COMMAND card, not a Lore card. Thus the question of Command cards override Lore abilities (or Lore tokens) might be in order here.

Thus which one overrides whom might be nice to know (and then of course I bet we'll have some exceptions to the rule!)

Cab
p.s. And of course, to make matters worse, have a command card with the same name as the game itself makes it hard to search on too! Smile
      
dbc-
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Re:Command card vs Lore and/or Lore tokens, which takes precedence ? Tue, 24 July 2007 01:23
How come a card like Chain Lightning is not capped by Shadow Walk, when all cards giving the hiding unit extra dice is capped?
I'm referring to the following two entries in the Compendium:

Question: When a unit in Shadow Walk is the target of a Lore card that specifies "roll x dice", how many dice do you roll against it?

Answer: The Lore card overrides the Shadow Walk. You roll the number of dice specified by the card just played.


Question: Is a shadow-walked unit capped to 1d even if ordered by command cards giving +1 bonus? (eg leadership).

Answer; The same way that a Lore card that would buff up the unit does not apply, the Leadership card would confer no bonus to the unit (unless you opted to have it walk out of the shadow at the same time, of course!).
      
toddrew
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Re:Command card vs Lore and/or Lore tokens, which takes precedence ? Tue, 24 July 2007 03:24
I don't know if this is the answer you are looking for, but I believe on page 52 of the rulebook is where it is stated that lore cards played later override lore cards played earlier. So if Shadow Walk were played and then the following turn the opponent used Strength on an ordered unit, that unit would battle the Shadow Walking unit with 2d rather than the 1d. Same would go for any lore that increased the attack of a unit, as well as any lore card that directly targets the unit with a dice roll.

There is no rule that command cards do override lore cards as well, and the compendium ruling just further reinforces that cc's do not override lore effects.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 July 2007 03:26]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 04:06
Lore cards override Command cards - which is why Leadership would not override Shadow Walk. However, the rule when two cards conflict is that the later one is supposed to override (as Toddrew pointed out). The compendium (at least if it was copied and pasted right) does not support this position. So something more is at play (assuming the DOW staff didn't have an oversight here).

The distinction appears to me to be this though: Shadow Walk alters the unit beyond just this turn - and as such, it is given the token to keep this status ongoing. (Most other Lore card effects are for one turn only.) The restriction is that it can only battle or be battled at one die. With Chain Lightening, however, you are not being battled so much as bombarded from above. In other words, no unit is specifically attacking you, therefore the 1 die restriction does not apply.

(To use M44 as an example - it is like Air Power or Barrage being able to ignore everything else and still roll the full amount of dice - ChainLightening acts similarly in that it ignores terrain and obviously this Shadow Walk modifier as well.)

By this logic though, good ole Hills Rumble, River Rage, and Forest Frenzy should also be able to target a shadow unit. What do they care if you are in the dark? The shadows don't protect you from natural disaster!
      
toddrew
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 04:20
Wow, I hadn't seen that ruling on subsequent lore cards that affect battle rolls not overriding Shadow Walk. There's also a conflict elsewhere in the lore compendiums (I believe it is on the First Strike/Ambush page and the Slow page) where some rulings state that reaction cards may only be played during an opponent's turn and others that say that is not so. Love to have those cleared up too.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 July 2007 04:23]

      
Caboose
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 05:50
Curious..I had asked my query back in Feb (as you can see by the post up above) and now this topic is alive again...very odd!

As for Shadow protecting vs Hills, etc, I think it is because, if I recall from other DoW responses, they don't like to make us do "record keeping" and thus keep it simple that a shadow walking unit always has 1 die, be it for or against (but see below as well)

And yes I do believe that reaction cards SHOULD only be played on opponent's turn but I some people think some cards are reaction cards when they are not reaction cards perhaps ??

But also upon looking at the answers in the lore compendium for the Shadow Walk card, the answers to the questions certainly give one pause. Since the answers say Lore spell cards like Chain Lightning roll the correct # of dice, but for "unit boosting abilities" be it from Command or Lore, the shadow walk ability stands of rolling 1 die.

Thus I would think, based on the answer for Chain Lighting question, that the Hills Rumble, River Rage, and Forest Frenzy lore cards (as well as any other like spells) would act like they normally would for a Shadow Walk unit.

Cab

[Updated on: Tue, 24 July 2007 05:59]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 13:49
toddrew wrote on Mon, 23 July 2007 21:20

There's also a conflict elsewhere in the lore compendiums (I believe it is on the First Strike/Ambush page and the Slow page) where some rulings state that reaction cards may only be played during an opponent's turn and others that say that is not so. Love to have those cleared up too.

First off, Reaction cards are the ones that have the lighter text box. i think we all know that. They also have the little lightening symbol.

Second, a quick read through all of them show that all but 2 state that they are played:
* Before your Opponent's Roll (Agility x2/Stone Skin/Blur, Parry/Slow, Evade/Scatter, First Strike/Ambush!)
* After your Opponent's Roll (Backstab)
* During your Opponent's Battle phase (Fearless x2, Mass Shield
* In reaction to your Opponent's Command Card (False Orders, Blinding Light)
* In Reaction to your Opponent's movement (Hold/Magic Web)

The 2 Exceptions are Foiled! and Dispel Lore which are in reaction to your Opponent's Lore card.

So, your opponent is only going to have a Battle Phase, a Command Card, and a Movement ONLY during his turn. Therefore, all of those should be reactions cards that you play during your opponent's turn and never on your own.

The gray area would be the before/after opponent's roll. Because it is possible for your opponent to roll on your turn (during battle back and if he plays Ambush!/First Strike). In that case, you may be able to play these cards on your turn in reaction to your opponent's dice roll.

-First Strike/Ambush!, by their nature are only reaction cards when it is not your turn; you can't play them when you attack.
- Evade/Scatter seem to clearly define the attacking/defending units so I think these are not playable on your turn. You should not be able to scatter from a unit battling back, but maybe I am wrong.
- Parry/Slow also define attacking enemy unit which implies to me it can only be used when it is not your turn for the same reason as Evade/Scatter
- Backstab defines the attacking enemy as in the two cases above
- Agility x2/Stone Skin/Blur define defending unit but it seems to me that this one may be to use this on your turn if you are defending against the battle back - but this would be contrary to the logic I established above. So again, I may be wrong.

What these all come down to is how DOW defines the attacker and defender. I am of the mindest that the active player is always the attacker, even if the inactive player strikes first. If that is the case, then none of the above cards can ever be used during your turn. If the terminology changes because of the Ambush/FS card, it seems to me the above reaction cards that deal with your opponent's dice roll would be availbale for your use during your turn.

Now in regards to the two exceptions, Foiled! and Dispel Lore, they say play in reaction to your opponent's Lore cards and target your opponent directly. There is no definition of attacker or defender, active or inactive player. Therefore, these are the only two reaction card that can always be played on your turn. Of course, you couldn't have played a Lore card first and your opponent must play one, in order for these to be used.

So I think that is the distinction, toddrew. Practically all reaction cards can only be played when it is not your turn. Only the reaction cards that cancel your opponent's Lore card can be played on your turn. The ruling by DOW of what an attacker and defender are should determine the gray area of the cards I called out.
      
jayr13
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 14:47
I have not found much use for Shadow walk until now with the new expansions coming out. I think it would be good to use with the Goblin band.
      
toddrew
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 16:10
ColtsFan76 wrote on Tue, 24 July 2007 04:49

So I think that is the distinction, toddrew. Practically all reaction cards can only be played when it is not your turn. Only the reaction cards that cancel your opponent's Lore card can be played on your turn. The ruling by DOW of what an attacker and defender are should determine the gray area of the cards I called out.


Yup, that's exactly how I used to think, until the ruling on Slow confused me, that it could be played during a battle back. If that is an error, then no problem. But I think it has been stated elsewhere that "attacker" is a malleable term, and at times on Lore cards it can refer to a unit that was initially the target of an attack, but is now attacking. Anyway, I'll get with the program soon, I'm sure Smile
      
toddrew
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 16:11
jayr13 wrote on Tue, 24 July 2007 05:47

I have not found much use for Shadow walk until now with the new expansions coming out. I think it would be good to use with the Goblin band.


I agree with both of your statements Very Happy
      
kdrushal
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 17:53
Maybe I'm off base with this thought, but I had always considered Shadow Walk to be like terrain. For example a forest limiting an attacking unit to 2 dice, in this case the maximum a unit could roll is 1 die. Any additional die called for by Command/Lore cards would be added to the 1 die maximum. Don't have the card in front of me, so my memory might not be recalling this correctly.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Tue, 24 July 2007 18:33
kdrushal wrote on Tue, 24 July 2007 10:53

Maybe I'm off base with this thought, but I had always considered Shadow Walk to be like terrain. For example a forest limiting an attacking unit to 2 dice, in this case the maximum a unit could roll is 1 die. Any additional die called for by Command/Lore cards would be added to the 1 die maximum. Don't have the card in front of me, so my memory might not be recalling this correctly.



Here is the text of the card from the compendium:

Shadow Walk

Targets may hide in the shadows. Place a status token on each now hidden target. From the shadows, targets may only battle or be attacked with 1d.

Target steps out of the shadows and loses its protection when it is ordered and chooses to, or as soon as it is hit by an enemy.


It is not terrain so other cards that add dice do not effect SW. This was clarified in the FAQ (of course, there is still some question - so "clarified" is a bit subjective at this point).
      
dbc-
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Thu, 02 August 2007 22:29
Okay there is still an unanswered question:

1. Does Lore Cards just played always override previously played cards?

This is stated in the rules, but the Lore Compendium says otherwise:

"Question: Is a shadow-walked unit capped to 1d even if ordered by command cards giving +1 bonus? (eg leadership).

Answer; The same way that a Lore card that would buff up the unit does not apply, the Leadership card would confer no bonus to the unit (unless you opted to have it walk out of the shadow at the same time, of course!)." (Emphasis mine).

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Thu, 02 August 2007 22:50
I belive you have your answer.

Shadow Walk sets the limit of dice the unit in the shadows may use to attack and how many dice attckers may use when it defends. Both are set at one die. Nothing can remove or alter this except A) the cancellation of Shadow Walk by another Lore card when SW is first played or B) if a unit "moves out of the shadows" and the token is discarded.

So any Command Cards and Lore Cards that give units a +X effect do not override SW. They are not overriding the Lore card per se since the Lore card is no longer in play. What is in play is the effect of the card represented by a token.
      
dbc-
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Fri, 03 August 2007 11:35
I must say I am not convinced.
If the system works as you describe, it means there is a whole new concept introduced - Standing Effects.
If Shadow Walk is not immediately dispelled, it will create something that is neither Lore, terrain or anything else described in the rules?
As I see it the effect of this Lore Card is to cap the amount of dice thrown. All other effects capping dice, can be overridden. Why is this a special circumstance, making Lore even more complex?
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Attack bonuses against Shadow Walk's units? Fri, 03 August 2007 14:10
1) It is a sepcial effect as denoted by use of a token: it is called a "status". Shadow Walk gets discarded like any other used card and could be shuffled and replayed just like any other Lore card. So once it is allowed to be played, it can't be countered under normal circumstances.

2) Shadow walk caps the number of dice a UNIT throws against another UNIT. The distinction with Chain lightening, HR/FF/RR is that it is NOT a unit attacking a unit. Therefore the cap does not exist.

3) I could most defnitely be wrong. But given the information we have from DOW, this is the most probable rationale.
      
    
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