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Gawaine
Junior Member
Second Lieutenant

Posts: 25
Registered:
September 2006
Cowardice of Goblins Sun, 11 February 2007 22:45
I recently played a game with a friend of mine where we faced each other in a custom scenario. My friend had the Dwarves (two blue infantry, one red infantry, and one crossbow unit) and I had the goblins (one cavalry unit, two blue infantry, one red infantry. My thinking was to attack the Dwarves with my goblins, thinking I could kill the dwarves quickly, due to the goblin speed. However after I attacked his blue infantry dwarves with my blue infantry goblins, not only did I miss all hits, but he when he battled back, he rolled two retreat flags against me..... My entire goblin unit was killed by his dwarves in one roll without any added affects. I quickly lost all of my goblin units to his Dwarves within the next command phase. Does anyone else have the impression that the Dwarves are extremely over powered, or the goblins, are at the extreme disadvantage? Also if you have used any particular strategies with goblins, that have worked, please let me know, I would be greatful. Thank you for your time.
      
Caboose
Senior Member
First Lieutenant

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May 2004
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 12 February 2007 00:06
Remember to keep the Goblins in support of each other to get "bold" status and thus they can ignore ONE flag.

That is one way to attack groups. The ability to ignore a flag is very powerful. Obviously if someone rolls 2 flags, not much you can do, but at least you can control what to do when ONE flag does happen.
      
mikebialecki
Junior Member

Posts: 4
Registered:
January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 12 February 2007 02:11
I'm still learning, but here's one thing that I try and keep in mind. The victory conditions are usually that all you have to do is kill x number of units. These conditions don't stipulate which units they have to be. So what I do when it comes to dwarves is try to ignore them. Kill off the weaker units around them. You can generally acquire the victory conditions without ever killing a dwarven unit. The speed of the goblins makes this especially effective since they can get somewhere before the dwarves even get to them. Obviously, you can't do much about when the dwarves come after you, but at least you're not giving them the satisfaction of free battlebacks.
      
Bigblue
Member

Posts: 47
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January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 12 February 2007 02:26
I have found where goblins are concerned, set them up defensively and let them come to you. Avoid dwarves at all costs, only fight them defensively. If going after other units, only attack if you are in a defensive supporting formation. Very Happy
      
*player310891
Junior Member

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January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 12 February 2007 04:39
My biggest issue with Goblins is that the second you set them up defensively is the second they get two flags thrown against them and usually that means they can't retreat which is just devastating.

I use Goblins ONLY to back up other units and lash out when an opportunity arises.

Dwarfs are powerhouses and I make sure to always play my command cards in a way to ensure I get them into the most action.
      
Ding
Junior Member

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January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 12 February 2007 05:01
I've only played with the goblins once (the "Burgos" scenario), and was a bit concerned after reading numerous posts concerning how weak they are. However they performed sterlingly for me, decimating four human infantry and archer units in short order - I was well chuffed Twisted Evil . I may have been a bit lucky with the dice, but the main factor was to "go straight at 'em" from the start of the game and attack in the enemy's own territory, thus leaving plenty of space in the rear to flee into. That's the key I think - always leave an escape route if possible, to avoid taking unnecessary hits. This is good advice for any unit, but is life-and-death stuff for the gobs - they're made for hit-and-run warfare. Hope this helps Smile .
      
ArturoG
Member

Posts: 55
Registered:
December 2006
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 12 February 2007 14:06
Don't forget the rush ability of the red and blue goblin infantry. It works pretty nice to position goblins two hexes far from blue/red human infantry. Unless the opponent plays a Foot-on-slaught command they cannot reach you in his turn, but you can reach them the next turn if they don't walk back. Try to use this ability to choose the weakest enemy units for your attacks (better if they are isolated and cannot battle-back).

Always try to keep goblins supported.
A mounted-charge of two green goblin cavalry units alone is dangerous if you do not destroy the target. The isolated cavalry may be attacked the next turn when they are unsupported. However, it works well if you first approach infantry. When there is only a gap of one hex between your units and the enemy you may charge with the cavalry from the back using that nice run of up to 4 hexes, positioning them in the gap. They battle and still get the support of your infantry on the enemy's turn.

You may also use green cavalry to quickly catch isolated units, or weaken ones which are trying to get out of the main battle-line. And, of course, it is perfect to provide quick support where your lines are getting broken. It is highly versatile.

Goblins are not heavy-shock units as iron-dwarfs, but they have many other interesting and tactical uses.
      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
Registered:
August 2005
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Tue, 13 February 2007 16:22
Gawaine, the problem you're seeing is one of your own creation. Goblins and dwarves are in no way meant to be of equal value. I think that you are assuming they're supposed to be on par with one another for some reason.

Not only are dwarves more powerful than goblins in general, but the nature of their abilities really magnifies the difference.

Nothing is overpowered or underpowered in Battlelore. It's literally impossible for that sort of thing to occur. This is because it's scenario game, and scenarios take into account the relative strength of units. I would say that your custom scenario is flawed. Smile

It's difficult to create a goblin vs dwarf scenario out of the box. I wouldn't try, unless you plan on giving the goblins some huge advantage. And I'd warn you against relying on superior numbers as an advantage, since superior numbers doesn't mean all that much...
      
Black Barney
Member

Posts: 39
Registered:
February 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Tue, 13 February 2007 16:40
Yeah, don't attack dwarves unless you can kill them all in one shot (either using Lore or attacking a weakened Dwarf unit). The only Dwarf unit I ever attack quickly are the crossbowmen because they tear up my cavalry. Other than that, I totally ignore dwarves because they're too dangerous to fight against.

As for Goblins, they need to be supported (Bold) because one retreat flag can really mess them up. I typically use Goblins as reserves except for the 4-moving Green cavalry. Those guys are great at chasing down weakened units.
      
Talespinner
DoW Content Provider
Rikugun Taii

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March 2006
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Sat, 17 February 2007 02:18
Bigblue wrote on Sun, 11 February 2007 20:26

I have found where goblins are concerned, set them up defensively and let them come to you. Avoid dwarves at all costs, only fight them defensively. If going after other units, only attack if you are in a defensive supporting formation. Very Happy


This is the best way to use Goblins, a friend of mine plays them this way and they become very useful. Yes, it still stinks when someone rolls two flags against them, but it sure beats feeding them into a meat grinder (i.e. any other BOLD unit in the game) piecemeal.
      
akaRoads
Junior Member

Posts: 23
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January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 19 February 2007 18:53
After playing several games with both Goblins and Dwarfs, I have come to the conclusion that I do not prefer either one. One is to strong and the other to weak. I like a balanced game, were the players strategy is the main factor. Yes, this game has luck, but luck provides the medieval flavor.
      
saxman1215
Junior Member

Posts: 1
Registered:
January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Mon, 19 February 2007 19:07
For my first 10 or so battles with goblins and dwarves, I was absolutely convinced that I hated goblins and loved dwarves. My take has changed, though over the course of the last few battles.

Dwarves, I still love. Always bold is a phenominal ability. But Goblins can be very good units IF USED SMARTLY as well.

Most of how to use goblins well has already been described:
--Keep them supported, keep them supported, keep them supported ALMOST always.
--Use their quick movement abilities at choice times, NOT every time you get the chance.

The one thing I'd add is that supported goblins on hills are a wonderful thing. In my most recent game, I had around 6 goblin units on my right flank and my opponent had 4 or 5 dwarven units on his correspoding left flank. Early on, I moved my lizard riders up onto some hills a couple of spaces away from the dwarves and made sure to support them. Then, I just hung out on the hill until the dwarves came.

Long story short, he was battling uphill, 2 dice with short sword on my mounted units, I was battling back with 2 dice(cuz they're green units) and hitting all bonus strikes.

I don't usually make a plan of going after dwarven units for my victory points, but I ended up killing off 3 of them and winning thanks in no small part to my goblins.
      
cebalrai
Senior Member

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Registered:
August 2005
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Tue, 20 February 2007 03:29
akaRoads, again, there is no such thing as "too strong" or "too weak" in this game. It just doesn't exist! The only thing that matters is scenario balance.

If you disagree, then you must also have a problem with red cavalry and green infantry. One is very strong and the other is very weak. You must also have a problem with creatures, etc... There are strong units and weak units in BL, just as there were strong and weak medieval military units.

Your idea that you have to have all units the same strength in order to have a fair game that involves strategy doesn't really make any sense IMO. There's TONS of strategy (gobs, really) in factoring in the various strengths and weaknesses of your army (and same for your opponents' army).

I guess you play every game with only blue infantry then? Confused
      
affro
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January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Tue, 20 February 2007 10:13
The best way to win with Goblins, I think, is playing in character.

Gobbos aren't killing machines. Gobbos are bullies.
They are noisy as hooligans at first, but prone to become little puny brats when meeting a stronger guy; nonetheless they can beat the hell out of a nerd when in group.

So, keep'em in the rear line, beside, let's say, one or two blue human infantries, giving and taking support.
Usually, in strategy games, fragile fast units aren't professional chargers, they are pursuers: they wait until the right moment to strike, when the enemy is weakened (e.g. many units have lost the majority of figures) and the lines are broken (e.g. the units are isolated and unsupported).
This means that their utility come into play later, perhaps playing strictly for a draw most of the game.
Only then the ability to move in còrps-a-còrps fast reveals it's dangerousness, when Gobbos outmaneuver easily everyone else on the battlefield, and strike that unique, rapid blow to reach the victims' count dictated by the condition of victory.

It's a risky and timely job: failed that blow, Gobbos are exposed and fearful... certainly, they'll never win a Fair Play medal,
but they are Gobbos, and we love them as they are (e.g. greedy, greeny and malignant)!

[Updated on: Tue, 20 February 2007 10:25]

      
toddrew
Senior Member
Cadet

Posts: 830
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October 2006
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Tue, 20 February 2007 17:20
Great discussion about the gobbos here. One thing I'd like to add is that they make for great bait as well - takes a very cautious player to avoid rushing in on an unsupported goblinoid unit, and if you have a nice mounted charge trap set...

Also, about the dwarves: I only attack them with mounted units or range, otherwise I let them initiate (crossbowmen being the exception, I engage them quickly).

[Updated on: Tue, 20 February 2007 17:22]

      
akaRoads
Junior Member

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January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Tue, 20 February 2007 20:20
player142544 writes:
"Your idea that you have to have all units the same strength..."

Sorry, I did not make myself clear. I was talking about an over all game scenario. I don't know just what the Goblin / Dwarf ratio should be, but an equal number of units is not an equal game. If the (whatever the term is, lets call it "Units to Dice") is disproportionately lopsided than the game will not play well. Also the Goblin fear factor needs to be compensated for as well, unless one side is supposed to be better or worse. And yes I understand Goblin Support and the rest.
      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
Registered:
August 2005
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Tue, 20 February 2007 21:24
I think the official scenarios take into consideration the difference in power between units. They do this with Red cavalry versus a green infantry in the same way they consider a red dwarf vs green goblin infantry.

I guess I don't know why you're not equally bothered by each side having different armies regardless of whether or not gobs/dwarves are involved. Nobody is saying that an equal number of units is an equal game. Are you suggesting that the scenarios are unbalanced because Mr. Borg failed to take into account that not every unit is the same?... Of course he took into account those factors. Why would he not?

If you're designing your own scenario, then it's your responsibility to balance the sides. Not only through unit power, but relative unit-in-environment power. Terrain, etc. It's not a science, and never will be... Razz
      
blindspot
Senior Member
Cadet

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January 2006
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Wed, 21 February 2007 00:58
Glad to see the fair handed defense here of goblins; not for their battle prowess but for what they add to the flavor and texture of the game overall. It would be a pretty dull and boring game without the wide diversity of units offered. Confused

I will say that having too many goblin units, say 4, in a 6VP scenario, may sometimes present somewhat of a liability that your opponent may wish to exploit. But then knowing your opponents intentions in this regard can often be turned back around to your advantage. Such a scenario then forces you to protect against such liabilities and your success depends not so much on what you have chosen but on how well you execute what it seems you have no choice but to do!

For all intents and purposes goblins are just scared little conscripts. But even scared little runts get the chance to be heroes sometimes. I second all the tips here on how best to use goblins in a scenario that features them. They have strengths and given the right opportunity and planning, it will show.

There will no doubt be many more units of all strengths and sizes, weak and strong, small and large, to come in BattleLore and the game's richness will come from the variety of those units that play out the drama of battle with all of its highs and lows.
      
Zelbone
Junior Member
KS Backer - Goblin

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August 2006
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Wed, 21 February 2007 06:17
I don't mind Goblins. By and large my victories/defeats with goblins are mostly due to other factors. I have never actually lost a single goblin to retreating. Hard to believe but my gobos die to hits and not retreats.
      
akaRoads
Junior Member

Posts: 23
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January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Wed, 21 February 2007 07:08
player142544 writes:

Are you suggesting that the scenarios are unbalanced because Mr. Borg failed to take into account that not every unit is the same?

No.

I guess it's the frightened aspect that I have a problem with. There is no good way to counter it. Two black flags and the Gobs are on the run, even with support. I can see I need more experience with Goblins.
      
Wee Sodjer
Senior Member

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October 2005
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Wed, 21 February 2007 11:45
akaRoads wrote on Wed, 21 February 2007 06:08

player142544 writes:. I can see I need more experience with Goblins.



Check out my first wife...
Evil or Very Mad
      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
Registered:
August 2005
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Wed, 21 February 2007 13:07
Yeah strange, I've hardly lost any goblins to retreating as well. The scenarios tend to set them up in packs, so there's usually plenty of support around...

Last game I managed to get my red hobgoblin infantry onto my opponent's healing pool. He refused to confront me there, for fear of a nasty battleback.
      
akaRoads
Junior Member

Posts: 23
Registered:
January 2007
Re:Cowardice of Goblins Wed, 21 February 2007 16:00
That was very funny Wee Sodjer
Laughing
      
    
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