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Black Barney
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  Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Wed, 21 February 2007 17:07
I read on some thread somewhere that the Earth Elemental is the only creature that can't power up (save lore for later). Is this true?
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Wed, 21 February 2007 18:04
Partially. The Hill Giant can't store lore for a Power up either. The only creature that can store lore is the Giant Spider so far.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Wed, 21 February 2007 18:10
For more clarity, this is from the official Creature Compendium:

Quote:

Power-ups
The power-up mechanics were introduced to provide a creature's master with some interesting yet simple choices, namely:

* Use any lore rolled on the spot, to immediately trigger a special power of corresponding (or lower) lore requirements (eg the Giant Spider Web);
* Or temporarily "store" the lore you just rolled, to start building up toward the higher lore requirements of your creature's more fearsome special powers (eg the Giant Spider Poison);
In a few instances, you may also be able to temporarily "store" the lore just rolled, to hold the triggering of a special power back until a more opportune time (ie hold back your Giant Spider Web for another target).

...

Rolled does not equal Stored
The words used on a creature's summary cards are critical:

Whenever a special power is described as producing "x" effect for each lore rolled, it literally means rolled, not stored. In other words, it produces "x" effect "for each lore just rolled". Any lore stored in a prior dice roll, as part of a power-up, is of no help here.

As such, there is no point in storing up lore for such powers or trying to "hold it back".

In light of the number of questions this wording has generated, we will clearly differentiate between special powers that can be held back and those that can't and should be used on the spot or lost, in future Creatures' summary cards.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 February 2007 18:12]

      
Sothis
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Wed, 21 February 2007 18:55
The FAQ posting by Eric for the Earth Elemental states

"if he rolls 1 Lore you may either:

- immediately trigger a tremor, forcing all units surrounding the Elemental to retreat 1 hex toward their side;

OR

- place a Lore token next to the Elemental, to show the earth pressure that is beginning to build up toward an earthquake!"

Note that the description of Earthquake on the Earth Elemental card does NOT make reference to rolled Lore. Therefore the EE CAN power-up to an Earthquake. However, it can't store Lore for a later Tremor: the Tremor wording explicitly says rolled Lore.

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Wed, 21 February 2007 19:06
Sothis wrote on Wed, 21 February 2007 11:55

The FAQ posting by Eric for the Earth Elemental states

"if he rolls 1 Lore you may either:

- immediately trigger a tremor, forcing all units surrounding the Elemental to retreat 1 hex toward their side;

OR

- place a Lore token next to the Elemental, to show the earth pressure that is beginning to build up toward an earthquake!"

Note that the description of Earthquake on the Earth Elemental card does NOT make reference to rolled Lore. Therefore the EE CAN power-up to an Earthquake. However, it can't store Lore for a later Tremor: the Tremor wording explicitly says rolled Lore.



My bad... gotta quit trusting my memory at work!

An additional note: With an earthquake that can used stored Lore, there is still a retreat (as if it were a Tremor). So when you apply the retreat, only the rolled Lore, not the stored Lore, count towards the number of hexes to retreat.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 February 2007 19:07]

      
Caboose
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Sat, 24 February 2007 07:44
Yep thought of something here.

Let's say you had 1 Lore stored on the EE and rolled 3 Lore with the EE to do an Earthquake.

And thus cause units around to flee for 3 Hexes (3 Lore rolled).
But is only ONE unit lost PERIOD no matter how many lore are rolled ?? Seems based on the creature card, it is just one unit.

Also does an earthquake HURT the EE, even if it is the one doing the action ? (Earthquake says ALL surrounding units - I sure hope it does not, but obviously something to think about)

You would think a more powerful earthquake would do more damage (if we are thinking logically - just ask the folks in California <G>). Thus it seems EE storing Lore really doesn't do much more, barring a lost of figure in the surrounding hexes between the 2 power ups actions.

Also even though Tremor says rolled Lore, I don't see any problem if someone wants to do a Tremor with stored Lore on a fight back. Sure it won't do anything though(since the Lore was stored). Thus can a creature do a powerup action, even though it won't do anything ?

And lastly, since it is a power up (which in the EE's case is part of an attack roll), can it do a Gain Ground action DUE to the power up action freeing up the square ?? And in the EE's case, since it requires Lore for Normal movement, does it also require use of such Lore for the gain ground action ? [I still say it requires use of the Lore to gg, since normally it would]
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Sat, 24 February 2007 14:58
Caboose wrote on Sat, 24 February 2007 00:44

Yep thought of something here.

Let's say you had 1 Lore stored on the EE and rolled 3 Lore with the EE to do an Earthquake.

And thus cause units around to flee for 3 Hexes (3 Lore rolled).
But is only ONE unit lost PERIOD no matter how many lore are rolled ?? Seems based on the creature card, it is just one unit.

That is how I read it. In reality, ylu don't have more powerful earthquakes - you just have more far-reaching tremors. So the epicenter is always the same and yuyo will never kill more than 1 figure per unit during an *earthquack*. It is the aftershocks that are deadly and the ripple effect of pushing the units out that could be dangerous. Riding an earth wave for 3 hexes, you are bound to hit something that is going to cause additional damamge. And I think people in California will tell you the aftershocks are more frightful than the original earthquake.

Quote:

Also does an earthquake HURT the EE, even if it is the one doing the action ? (Earthquake says ALL surrounding units - I sure hope it does not, but obviously something to think about)

No, I see no basis for this. "Surrounding" would not include the hex itself. That is like saying that everything Surrounding Jupiter is a moon; and because of that, Jupiter is a moon itself. An EE cannot hurt itself.

Quote:

You would think a more powerful earthquake would do more damage (if we are thinking logically - just ask the folks in California <G>). Thus it seems EE storing Lore really doesn't do much more, barring a lost of figure in the surrounding hexes between the 2 power ups actions.

See above for my comments on Californka Wink Again, I think you will always have a Level 1 earthquake no matter how many Lore you roll. So if your EE sems to be Lore happy when rolling, my advice would be use only 2 Lore to trigger an earthquake and store the rest for another earthquake later. 2 Stored lore might be a better trigger as an earthquake anyway - you get to kill with out forcing the units into a retreat - so that you cna continue to kill without chasing them. You get them with Quantty, not quality.

Quote:

Also even though Tremor says rolled Lore, I don't see any problem if someone wants to do a Tremor with stored Lore on a fight back. Sure it won't do anything though(since the Lore was stored). Thus can a creature do a powerup action, even though it won't do anything ?

I don't get it. Why would ylu use 1 Lore for a tremor? All you would be doing is spending a Lore needlessly. Unless you askihg if you roll Lore during a battle back and getover 2 stored lore. But in that case you should take the excess and put it in your goblet instead of tossing it.

So t0 answer your question, I believe that you get to keep Lore rolled in a Battle Back and that you could store it for a power-up.

Quote:

And lastly, since it is a power up (which in the EE's case is part of an attack roll), can it do a Gain Ground action DUE to the power up action freeing up the square ?? And in the EE's case, since it requires Lore for Normal movement, does it also require use of such Lore for the gain ground action ? [I still say it requires use of the Lore to gg, since normally it would]

You lost me here. An EE still has a normal attack. I beli8eve that the normal attack (with no lore rolled) that causes a defending unit to be destroyed or retreat will allow the EE to gain ground for FREE. I am not so sure that the Special powers - Tremor or Earthquake will grant you the ability to enter the vacated hex (not because it is the EE, but because it is a special power) - and I am not fully convienced I am right on that.
      
DarkPadawan
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Mon, 26 February 2007 12:23
I think you are right on your last statement, ColtsFan. We have had this discussion in another thread, and we agreed that gaining ground can only result from a successful melee attack.

Dark.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Mon, 26 February 2007 14:43
DarkPadawan wrote on Mon, 26 February 2007 05:23

I think you are right on your last statement, ColtsFan. We have had this discussion in another thread, and we agreed that gaining ground can only result from a successful melee attack.

Dark.

We had the discussion, but I dont thihk we ever got official clarification. But I guess after re-reading and re-re-reading the EE in all of these discussion, I am not so sure we were right!

A tremor is only going to happen as a direct result of a melee. Units are retreating in that melee (as a result of rolled Lore). Maybe it does make more sense that an EE should be able to take ground here. The rules state retreats are resolved last. It then goes on to talk about just retrreat flags rolled. But the EE card calls the Lore rolled retreats also. For that matter, The Hill Giant's pushback is also a lore-induced retreat.

Without official clarification, I am just doubting our initial discussion was on the right track.
      
DarkPadawan
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Mon, 26 February 2007 15:32
Agreed. For that matter, we will need the official DOW word (Eric, Richard?) to the following question:

Is a creature's special attack a melee attack?

...and the rest is more or less clear Rolling Eyes.

Dark.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Mon, 26 February 2007 16:24
Or more appropriately,

Can a creature take ground as a follow-on action when the retreat is a result of a Lore roll or Special Ability? Can a creature take ground as a follow-on action when the defending unit is eliminated as a result of a Lore roll or Special Ability?
      
eric
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Mon, 26 February 2007 16:47
The answers to both of ColtsFan questions are yes. A retreat is a retreat, regardless of what induced it (and if something says to read a Lore as a Flag for instance, then the move that Lore causes is a retreat move). Likewise for the kill (assuming your creature was adjacent to the victim, of course).

      
DarkPadawan
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Re:Can you power up an Earth Elemental? Tue, 27 February 2007 08:34
Quote:

Thanks boss, it's good to have support from the Sith Master Twisted Evil .

Dark.


.... just to be crushed and disciplined in the next thread Laughing
Yes, yes my fellow force users, the dark side can be a treacherous thing.

Dark.

PS: Eric, I am glad that those two questions are finally clarified.
      
    
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