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andrewgr
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Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 30 January 2007 17:13
I've played around 10 games now using the full rules (war councils, landmarks, etc.). So far the only real complaint I have with the game are the two lore cards, Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy.

The person that has played this card has won every game, and indeed I cannot see how they could ever lose a scenario in which there is a bunch of terrain on the board (which describes most or all of the more advanced scenarios).

I have tried not taking a Cleric in order to cut the odds that the card will be in the deck; if it works, the game is even, if it doesn't work, my opponent crushes me with it.

I have tried taking a Rogue to get access to the anti-lore cards; I've never had one in my hand when either of these spells is cast.

I could immediately try to move all of my units away from forests and hills. I hope no one seriously recommends that as a viable strategy for winning. You would be hard pressed to find anywhere on the board you could actually have your units supported while simultaneously being non-adjacent to all hills and forests, not to mention that one of the primary strategies of the game is supposed to be taking advantage of terrain.

None of the other command cards or lore cards seem to have this impact. For 7 lore, we routinely see 12-20 figures eliminated, basically deciding the game, sometimes as early as turn 2 (start with 3 lore, take 2 lore on turn 1, roll 2 lore with archers on turn 1-- it's happened).

I think a lot of people exaggerate the importance of luck in this game. I think you can do a *lot* to compensate for bad rolls and bad command card draws. Being able to battle back if you're supported means you don't always need good cards to do damage. But I'm really beginning to feel like 1/4 to 1/3 of my games are always going to be decided by whoever draws one of these two cards, which makes me sad.
      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 30 January 2007 17:54
I've never seen it kill more than 3-4 guys. Last night I played it with a level 1 cleric and killed one guy in 8 total dice.
      
andrewgr
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 30 January 2007 19:28
Quote:

I've never seen it kill more than 3-4 guys. Last night I played it with a level 1 cleric and killed one guy in 8 total dice.


Are you sure you're playing it correctly? It targets ALL enemy units on or next to ALL terrain of the given type (elevated terrain for Hills Rumbl, Forests for Forest Frenzy). So for example, in a scenario with 12 Hill tiles, that would be around 84 separate hexes that would be effected. If you're only rolling 8 dice, it sounds like maybe you're only targeting a single terrain hex and its surrounding hexes?
      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 30 January 2007 19:51
I think we were playing it correctly. Level one cleric means you only roll 2 dice per unit affected. My opponent had 4 units that were in/adjacent to forests so I rolled a pair of dice 4 times against all 4 units. Average would be about 2.75 hits or so with that, and I rolled a bit below average at only one hit. Still, 2.75 dead guys isn't terribly powerful...
      
andrewgr
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 30 January 2007 20:00
Okay, but look at the advanced scenarios. There are lots and lots of cases where your opponent will have 10 or more units on or next to a forest or hills. Only 4 units is pretty low.
      
dbc-
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 30 January 2007 22:29
I agree, the two cards are too powerfull. If you are playing scenarios with large armies, like we do, it is simply a matter of casting Hills Rumble and let your cavalry eat up the rest!
I've seen it done many times. Sure there are scenarios without hills/forest, but if enough terrain is present, those cards have often become game deciding.

But what is the solution?
You can't remove them from the deck without nerfing the cleric. Somehow the effect has to be altered. Chain Lightning is very dangerous if you roll well, but it might also end up doing no damage on the first unit and do you no good at all. Could something like this be applied to Hills Rumble/Forest Frenzy?
      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 30 January 2007 23:09
Yeah we played a scenario that was more hilly than woodsy, and it was later in the game when there were fewer units on the map.

A good house rule (if this is really a problem for your gaming group) might be to change the (cleric level) + 1 = dice rolled formula to make it simply equal to cleric level. Or maybe the regular formula works on units in forest and it's simply cleric level in dice for those adjacent to forest.

Or make it a maximum of one guy killed per unit attacked?

Or house rule the casting cost to 13?

      
dbc-
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Wed, 31 January 2007 22:10
Raising the cost will not solve the problem. Whether the card is cast early on, or later in the game, it will still be too powerful.

Reducing the number of dice might be a solution. But it still might hit a lot of units!

Chain Lightning cost one extra lore and grant an extra dice. But it still has the risk of causing no damage at all. Furthermore it is limited in range. How can it be worth an extra lore?

Maybe the effect of Hills Rumble, Forest Frenzy and River Rage should stop if no hits are rolled on a unit, just like Chain Lightning? I know it will become annoying to keep track of in certain missions, but at least it might be more balanced.
      
Glinthi
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Wed, 31 January 2007 22:33
I completely agree -- the cards are too powerful. I would suggest the Cleric can attack the number of units on or next to hills/trees (whichever spell is being cast) equal to the number of command cards you have. Hence the maximum number of units effected would be 6. A pretty strong attack, but probably not devestating.

Glinthi
      
dbc-
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Thu, 01 February 2007 09:53
Glinthi wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 22:33

I completely agree -- the cards are too powerful. I would suggest the Cleric can attack the number of units on or next to hills/trees (whichever spell is being cast) equal to the number of command cards you have. Hence the maximum number of units effected would be 6. A pretty strong attack, but probably not devestating.

Glinthi


That's a very good idea!
It's simple and easy to implement.
Balance seems to be restored:
Chain Lightning - 1 extra dice, useful in all scenarios, variable damage. 1 extra lore.
Hills Rumble etc. - 1 less dice, usefulnes dependent on scenario, fixed damage, 1 less lore.

I'll use this house rule from now on!
      
andrewgr
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Thu, 01 February 2007 19:21
Personally, I wonder if DoW screwed up their interpretation of what Richard intended with this card. If it only effected a single Hill/Forest and the 6 surrounding squares, then this would effect a maximum of 7 units, and probably an average of 3 or 4. This seems to be perfect for a spell that costs 7 lore.

I know that in the Lore Compendium, DoW has officially clarified that the card really does effect ALL of the appropriate terrain hexes on the board and their surrounding hexes; but I don't think it's impossible that they made a mistake.
      
eric
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Thu, 01 February 2007 19:46
No we did not "screw up" Richard's intent. The post on the compendium is consistent with how Richard intended the cards to play out.

This being said, you are welcome to House rule these cards if you feel you will enjoy the game more by doing so.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 February 2007 19:48]

      
Bigblue
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Thu, 01 February 2007 23:37
Personally I don't have a problem with either card. They are great against an entrenched foe. But then I am a little evil. Twisted Evil
      
blindspot
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 05 March 2007 08:47
I played Scenario 9 from the Standard Adventures over the weekend. I used Hills Rumble on the second turn playing as Pennants with CL3. Killed about 12-15 figs and took 2VPs in one turn. Then switched sides and played as Standards. Used Forest Frenzy out of class as CL1 and killed 7 figs and garnered 2VPs in one turn. These cards are very powerful in this particular scenario due to so many hills and forests. And at 7 lore token cost, they are definitely also a bargain in this scenario compared to a Wizard's Creeping Doom at 9 lore tokens. About the only advantage Creeping Doom has over HR/FF is that the attacker can precisely locate his target hex, allowing for more precision coordination with a command card.

I've got to wonder at cries of "too powerful". How powerful is too powerful? Who's to say? After all, there have to be some exciting, high impact, world-beating combos in the game, right? In the case of Forest Frenzy and Hill Rumble, it's the combo of lv3 cleric, and more importantly the amount of hills and forests in a scenario like #9 "Free Companies on a War Footing". Here are some rough estimates of number of units you might commonly see getting affected in some different cases:

average # of units affected by Creeping Doom (terrain is no factor) = 3-5

average # of units affected by FF/HR (light terrain density) = 3-5 units
average # of units affected by FF/HR (medium terran density) = 6-9 units
average # of units affected by FF/HR (heavy terrain density) = 10-14 units

I don't necessarily think HR/FF should be nerfed. But if I did, I might suggest a light nerf, such as limiting the attack only to hexes in the same section of the command card that is also played (since these cards are to be played "alongside your command card"). Or possibly limiting the number of hexes to the caster's choice based on the number of the level of his Cleric (e.g. CL3 would be a still staggering cap of 21 possible hexes/units!).

[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2007 08:49]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 05 March 2007 14:33
I think they are fine as is. The effects are still dice depenedent and sometime you get the 2 VPs out of them sometimes you don't.

The best counter is to react to the situation and assume they are going to be played by your opponent. It is hard to react to the card being played int he 2nd turn, but you should look to move your troops away from forest and hills (granted, this scenario makes it almost impossible).

The other option is to manipulate the Lore deck. Don't take a cleric in the set-up and limit the deck to only 8 Cleric cards. You have about a 50% chance of knocking each card out and not have to face it.
      
taliesinbard
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 05 March 2007 16:03
In the second lore game I played, my opponent was rolling an average of 3 lore each turn, while he wasn't hitting much, it allowed him to play Forest Frenzy, Hill Rumble and Chain Lightning in 3 consecutive turns.
I absolutely loved the game until that point, and only gave it another chance because I'd spent money on the game...

Massive lore rolls have gone away, and I have rarely seen those cards in a game, let alone together. While I do believe they are powerful, they are equally as weak on a map that is not terrain intensive.
I've already decided that I'll never use Cleric if I can avoid it... sure it would be nice if I got the cards, but I can win without them anyway.

So, I believe the cards aren't as bad as they appear. But I also think that they should cost a bit more.

My problem with the cards is that they're Cleric cards. In my experiences, in fantasy, Cleric's deal primarily with healing, and here's a cleric that can deal more damange the wizard, rogue and warrior combined.

And for the record, to date I still prefer midevil games to lore games specifically because of those cards.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2007 16:04]

      
Black Barney
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 05 March 2007 17:16
Right now, the Cleric definately appears to be the most powerful. I would guess that the expansions will add cards to undermine the cleric's overpower especially with these cards. As of now, I don't see any reason now to take a Lvl 3 Cleric in every game
      
zatchmo
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 05 March 2007 20:21
I played scenario 9 last night with my roommate. I was pennants and he was standards. I knew that he was going to take at least a lvl 2 cleric because of all the terrain features. Because of this, I took lvl 1 rogue and warrior and a lvl 2 wizard and commander. He took a lvl 3 commander, lvl 2 cleric, and the creature. Now, I didn't win this scenario (5 of his banners were goblins...both cavalry died in the same turn from battle back retreats, all three figures were lost in the panic losses...dice were against me Mad ) However, it effectively kept him from seeing any good cleric cards. I think he cast blessing (but it didn't matter) and that was it for cleric spells. We showed our hands at the end of the game and he had a rogue and 2 warrior cards in his hand.

I think this is a very valid strategy against these cards is to just make the card pool bigger. Don't take the cleric if you know your opponent will. It reminds me of a drafting strategy used in Magic: the Gathering. If a good card comes around, even though it's not in your color, you take it so someone can't use it against you. It's called "hate drafting," and I think if you "hate" the cleric by not picking him and instead have a more varied council, it will make him less powerful.
      
Talespinner
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 06 March 2007 00:43
zatchmo wrote on Mon, 05 March 2007 14:21

Don't take the cleric if you know your opponent will. It reminds me of a drafting strategy used in Magic: the Gathering. If a good card comes around, even though it's not in your color, you take it so someone can't use it against you. It's called "hate drafting," and I think if you "hate" the cleric by not picking him and instead have a more varied council, it will make him less powerful.


After a couple of bad experiences with Chain Lightning, Hills Rumble, and Forest Frenzy, this is what I started doing. Granted you are still going to get nailed by it sometimes, and the cleric does seem a bit stronger than the other Loremasters, but he can be dealt with if you just dilute the Lore pool. Some scenarios are also not going to be "fair" because of terrain/War Council setups, play the scenario twice, have both players total up their points for both games and use that to see who "won."
      
tom-le-termite
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 06 March 2007 14:12
home rule about these 2 cards:

all unit on a hill/forest get hit as the card says, but all unit on adjacent hex just get 1d, nomatter the level of the cleric.

It reduce the power of the two cards but balance the cleric quite well.
      
GBF640
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Wed, 07 March 2007 02:23
Quote:

home rule about these 2 cards: all unit on a hill/forest get hit as the card says, but all unit on adjacent hex just get 1d, nomatter the level of the cleric. It reduce the power of the two cards but balance the cleric quite well.

That's not a bad idea, tom; maybe I'll try that out.

Here's another idea I thought of: how about if Hills Rumble/Forest Frenzy affects one hill/forest of your choice if you're Cleric-1, two if you're Cleric-2, three if you're Cleric-3. The dice would be handled as written on the card. Any thoughts?
      
Hose73
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Wed, 07 March 2007 07:21
Why not just limit the amount of hexes to choose? Let the cleric just choose three Forest/River/Hill Hexes which will be affected by this spell. I think this should be enough for a spell which costs only 7 Lore. If cast at the right time, this could still be very damaging.

Edit: After giving this a second thought, one Hex would be still enough...

[Updated on: Wed, 07 March 2007 08:16]

      
mvettemagred
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 23 April 2007 15:09
I played scenario 9 last night. Based on the heavy terrain and the knowledge that my friend loves the Cleric, I purposefully did not choose a Cleric. As expected, my friend took a level 2 Cleric. It was a gamble, because HR/FF would be uber-cards in this scenario, but the gamble worked for me. There were only 8 Cleric cards in the deck, and I drew 6 of 8 during the game. That kept them out of my friend's hands. Neither HR nor FF were cast. IIRC, they weren't even in the deck.

I did cast Creeping Doom and netted 4 figs. My friend wiped out a 4-figure red unit with a Fireball. So, some good Lore spells were cast, but my not choosing a Cleric really helped keep his Cleric in check.

Also, by having a Rogue, I prevented a nasty, ill-timed command card from being played (False Orders), and got to use my Eagle Eye twice (Deja Vu).

[Updated on: Mon, 23 April 2007 15:12]

      
blindspot
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 23 April 2007 18:12
mvettemagred wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 06:09

So, some good Lore spells were cast, but my not choosing a Cleric really helped keep his Cleric in check.

Also, by having a Rogue, I prevented a nasty, ill-timed command card from being played (False Orders), and got to use my Eagle Eye twice (Deja Vu).

Way to put it all together for the win! You must have read him like a book! I don't know what your exact war council setups were, but it sounds like you considered the factors well. With a dense terrain layout, I think a good way to shift the advantage with an anti-cleric setup would be to go Rogue/Wizard. Lots of good "reaction" and lore control cards in such a setup.
      
kilikzauvirr
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 24 April 2007 05:05
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 05 March 2007 08:33

I think they are fine as is. The effects are still dice depenedent and sometime you get the 2 VPs out of them sometimes you don't.

The best counter is to react to the situation and assume they are going to be played by your opponent. It is hard to react to the card being played int he 2nd turn, but you should look to move your troops away from forest and hills (granted, this scenario makes it almost impossible).

The other option is to manipulate the Lore deck. Don't take a cleric in the set-up and limit the deck to only 8 Cleric cards. You have about a 50% chance of knocking each card out and not have to face it.


Actually if only one person takes the Cleric for their council you only have roughly a 46% chance of a particular card being one of the 7 that is knocked out of the 15.
      
mvettemagred
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 24 April 2007 12:45
blindspot wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 12:12

mvettemagred wrote on Mon, 23 April 2007 06:09

So, some good Lore spells were cast, but my not choosing a Cleric really helped keep his Cleric in check.

Also, by having a Rogue, I prevented a nasty, ill-timed command card from being played (False Orders), and got to use my Eagle Eye twice (Deja Vu).

Way to put it all together for the win! You must have read him like a book! I don't know what your exact war council setups were, but it sounds like you considered the factors well. With a dense terrain layout, I think a good way to shift the advantage with an anti-cleric setup would be to go Rogue/Wizard. Lots of good "reaction" and lore control cards in such a setup.

Thanks, Blindspot. Somewhat accidentally, that's exactly what I did. I had:
- lvl 2 Commander
- lvl 2 Wizard
- lvl 2 Rogue

I think I cast three spells that took advantage of having a higher level Wizard and Rogue. Plus, I even cast four Cleric spells out of character (Heal, Stone Skin, Blinding Light and Bless). Not my preferred option, but I just kept drawing Cleric spells. I squeaked out the win, 6 flags to 5. It was our closest game yet.
      
bthermans
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Sat, 28 April 2007 22:14
And it also seems that the 2 cards are nerved with the coming of swamps and cliffs. With CtA it will be possible to have medium or high density terrain without giving the cleric too much power.
      
blindspot
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Sun, 29 April 2007 18:41
bthermans wrote on Sat, 28 April 2007 13:14

And it also seems that the 2 cards are nerved with the coming of swamps and cliffs. With CtA it will be possible to have medium or high density terrain without giving the cleric too much power.

At least until they release 2 more Cleric cards called Swamp Siege and Cliff Chaos. Rolling Eyes
      
bthermans
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 01 May 2007 16:24
blindspot wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 18:41

At least until they release 2 more Cleric cards called Swamp Siege and Cliff Chaos. Rolling Eyes


Great names Laughing , though I hope BL won't come to that.

But even if these cards come will the cards be less powerfull because there will be less terrain of the same type on the board so I can't wait to get my hands on the expansion (for other reasons as well Cool )
      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Sun, 13 May 2007 19:22
bthermans wrote on Sat, 28 April 2007 16:14

And it also seems that the 2 cards are nerved with the coming of swamps and cliffs. With CtA it will be possible to have medium or high density terrain without giving the cleric too much power.



Cliffs and marshes are not on every map, and if they are on every map there will not necessarily be a scarcity of cliffs and forest. Therefore there is no nerf.
      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Sun, 13 May 2007 19:48
Old thread I know, but I wanted to mention something that happened in last night's game.

I knew my opponent really likes HR/FF cards so I took no cleric hoping to minimize the chances he would get to play them on me. Strangely, not only were both cards in the deck, but I got HR in my original lore hand, and drew FF on about the 3rd turn.

A couple turns into the game I cast HR with 10 lore. Six units were targeted, resulting in two dead blue mounted units and a dead blue dwarf. A couple turns later I cast FF, targeting eight units, resulting in three dead units: giant spider and two blue infantry (including one that gave me a second banner after the spider).

The game was close and fun until I played the FF card. Even with a level 0 cleric, the card was still way too powerful. My opponent understandably quit after that, as he felt helpless and like it didn't really matter what he did - only what cards were drawn and played on him. We were left saying, "wow what if I had a level 3 cleric instead of a level zero?". I'm not sure how these cards got through play testing.

Why does the cleric have all the best nuking spells anyway? Clerics are supposed to be healers and protectors. But instead they're both of those things plus their offensive ability is better than all the other loremasters combined. Seems like DoW totally missed not only a game mechanic, but a flavor element as well.

      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Sun, 13 May 2007 19:50
With that in mind, what HR/FF nerfs have people found to be best? I read a few of them on this thread, but they were posted a while ago so there may be better things out there now...

      
mvettemagred
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 14 May 2007 19:50
A couple of clarifications:

1. When playing a Lore card out of character, it's played at level 1, not level 0. I'm sure that's what you meant to say, but it's important because it can affect the number of dice rolled.

2. In D&D terms, the Druid is a "nature" version of a Cleric. Several of the BL Cleric cards are more Druidic in nature than Cleric, so I've always viewed the BL Cleric as a blending of D&D Cleric and Druid. If it makes you feel better, think of cards like HR, FF and Commune with Nature as Druid spells.
      
Borgopolis
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Mon, 14 May 2007 22:27
Personally I think these cards are overpowered too.

I remember my third or fourth game I played when I played a lvl3 cleric especially to use these cards for the first time and my opponent(of course)drawing them , using them on me in consecutive turns and wiping out nearly my entire force.

At that point I remember I really got very disappointed in the game.
Strategy and tactics apparently didn't matter.
Drawing the power cards actually was all what this was about.

So far, there's only one balancing factor to these cards and that is that both players may pull the card, even if one of them didn't even choose a Cleric lvl.

And with the new terrain coming out, these cards have "gamebreaker" written all over them.
iirc, Cliffs are "Elevated Terrain" as well and Hills Rumble refers to "elevated terrain".

I suggest changing the cards (as has been suggested before)
Target 1 hill/Forest and surrounding hexes per Cleric level.
Thus 1 Forest/Hill for lvl 1 Cleric, 2 Hills/Forests for Lvl 2 Cleric etc.
      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 15 May 2007 01:11
mvettemagred wrote on Mon, 14 May 2007 13:50

A couple of clarifications:

1. When playing a Lore card out of character, it's played at level 1, not level 0. I'm sure that's what you meant to say, but it's important because it can affect the number of dice rolled.

2. In D&D terms, the Druid is a "nature" version of a Cleric. Several of the BL Cleric cards are more Druidic in nature than Cleric, so I've always viewed the BL Cleric as a blending of D&D Cleric and Druid. If it makes you feel better, think of cards like HR, FF and Commune with Nature as Druid spells.


1) Yeah, we played it right. My level 0 cleric meant each unit got pegged with one die.

2) The cleric looks like a fat churchy bishop, not a druid. But if it helps to rephrase the question, "why does a druid have better offensive power than all other loremasters combined?"
      
cebalrai
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 15 May 2007 01:14
B0RG wrote on Mon, 14 May 2007 16:27


So far, there's only one balancing factor to these cards and that is that both players may pull the card, even if one of them didn't even choose a Cleric lvl.


That's not game balance. That just means that it's going to be unbalanced in a random player's favor.
      
tech7
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 15 May 2007 13:31
I didn't had a problem with this cards, until now. But they can easily break the game. I limit those 4 cards to max 2 hexes, which can be hit.
      
Pipisongo
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Re:Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy Tue, 15 May 2007 14:55
I say we standardize house rules to re-balance this game. I started a thread at battleloremaster.com which might be worth reading for people posting on this thread:

http://www.battleloremaster.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=254
      
    
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