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ISOisNo1
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Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sun, 04 March 2007 23:25
Both games share the same basic mechanics while Battlelore has more layers of complexity and added features.
So, you can both play Battlelore in the stripped down simple way, like M44 or as a much more advanced game.

So, if someone asks which game he should buy (no need to buy both I think most people agree), I think almost everyone would recommend Battlelore over M44.
The only exception I can think of is if there is a strong ww2 interest.

So, isn't the M44 following doomed to shrink since Battlelore will be taking all new Borg games recruits onboard while also winning over some M44 vets?

Any further M44 expansions seem to have been put on hold since Battlelore is proving to be much more profitable for DoW.

So, what do people think, has M44 already reached its peak and will go downhill from now on?

      
neil1967
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 05 March 2007 00:27
Quote:

So, if someone asks which game he should buy (no need to buy both I think most people agree), I think almost everyone would recommend Battlelore over M44.
The only exception I can think of is if there is a strong ww2 interest.



I guess it depends why you play games, but unless you are purely interested in the mechanics of play then the subject matter is what counts when buying a game. As such BL appeals to those with an interest in Medieval/Fantasy and M44 is for those interested in WWII (and BC is for ACW fans, C&C:A for those into ancients).

I'm into all of the above, so I have BL, M44 and C&C:A. If BC was still available I'd get that too. And I hope the Napoleonic version comes out some day. And if someone asked me which one to get, I'd say all of them. Rolling Eyes

      
Sniper
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 05 March 2007 00:33
ISO,

NO! I think you are making a huge assumption when you say that M'44 is less profitable than BL (this would be impossible to know without seeing their financial records). The gaming world is big enough to support both games. I see BL taking more away from the C&C Ancients game than from M'44.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2007 01:05]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 05 March 2007 06:10
Mighty big assumption there Iso. 1) I do not agree that you should only buy one or the other and 2) I do not think that BL is better than M44.

I own all of the C&C games that have made it to print and distribution. Granted, I play Battle Cry and Ancinet smuch less than M44 and BL currently but I still prefer and play M44 much much mre than BL.

The ONLY reason that is BL as a potential killer is if DOW sees that BL is more profitable and choose not to expend any energy on M44. That is the problem with the SAME company producing 2 similar games.

However, DOW has stated that they will continue to support both. They haven't quite delivered on that yet. But I understand that BL needs to be firmly established so that it doesn't loose out to other Fantasy themed games: they need to develop it fully with the epic adventures and specialists and other things they had planned to be "basic" without being in the base game.

If we don't see something for M44 after this inital round of BL expansions, say by the end of the year, then I would worry that DOW is pulling the plug on M44 in favor of BL.
      
Angelo
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 05 March 2007 10:44
The main difference between M44 and BL is that the first has a historical theme the second not. Personally I much prefer M44, even though BL can have little bit more sophisticated rules, but the theme doesn't get me. Anyway I fear BL, step by step, can (will?) replace M44 for the simple reason that fantasy theme is easier to handle (for example: drawing a M44 scenario is more difficult, since there's a lot of historical research in order to do it) and it offers a wide range of expansion options (potentially there's no limit). It's enough to create a little new figure (monster, dwarf, wizard) to give him particular powers (defense, attack and so on) and you have new stuff to sell. Different the matter with M44, cause u need more care = more time Rolling Eyes
Anyway, among all the C&C games, M44 is the best...
      
Old Dwarf
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 05 March 2007 12:54
Well I never had a DoW Game till I picked up BL,
liked the C&C System so much....I also picked up M44 &
its expansions.

The mechanics are the same(given some BL additions)which
I appreciate as its like getting to learn 2 games for the
same effort.

I don't see a problem if you like the theme I don't
think one excludes the other.Its just as
much possible that purchasing BL could lead people into
MM4 as I did.

OD
      
Emcher
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 05 March 2007 21:12
I still prefer M44, although I haven't played that many games of BL yet. I do believe BL will evolve with new expansions and using the bigger board will make it a really fun and enjoyable game.

There's just something about the simplicity with M44 that makes it more appealing to me right now. The varied unit types also makes it better to look at.

I'm not real thrilled with the figures and the use of color (blue and green), as sometimes it's hard to make out the color in less than optimal light, or just by the angle you are looking at the banner/flag.

Although I haven't had a chance to play any of the Overlord scenarios in M44, what I'd really like to see is M44 come out with some expansions and use the board oriented like they plan to do in BL. Bigger playing area, more units, maybe even tweak the scale of the map a little.

It will also be dependent on continued sales. If M44 continues to sell new copies, then it would make sense to keep improving on it. After all, the group of people like us can be the game's best ambassador.
      
50th
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  Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 06 March 2007 03:21
I have no interest in BL. I do not like fantasy or fantasy gaming. I would like to see a game like M44 that is up to date with attack helo's and M1 armor. Expansions could be Iraq, North Korea, China, and the like. But I would never have any interest in BL. I would also like to see an archipelago map expansion for M44. This would have to be a larger map, but would have more ocean hexes for your ships from P.T. Another cool expansion would be an ocean only board, or half board that would attach to the bottom of your beach board. And it could have landing craft and rules for them. Then you could have a naval expansion with supmarines and destroyers for Germans, US, British, and Russians. This would be really cool!
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 06 March 2007 06:55
You're not the only one who appreciates the simplicity, emchar. I do as well. Tho' I enjoy BL, I find I prefer M44. The differences are NOT subtle at all in play. I do like both themes.
      
oddball
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Wed, 07 March 2007 17:04
I would have to agree with the general sentiment of the other posts (afterall, this is the M44 forum: you'd probably get a different viewpoint on the BL forum).

I also own BC, M44, CCA and I picked up BL before Christmas. BL is a beautiful game with quality bits that I really wanted to like. Unfortunately, the theme just didn't do it for me and I ended up trading it for a 2nd copy of M44 to play Overlord scenarios. Cool

The bottom line is that although all the C&C games share common mechanics, they're not the same, and they each appeal to different gamers with different interests. Even if DoW decided not to further develop the M44 system in favor of BL, what they have done with M44 to date has been fantastic and I don't think the interest or fan support would disappear any time soon. Smile
      
Randwulf
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Thu, 08 March 2007 05:15
Battlelore??? no....

But what do you get when you cross Squad Leader and M44...????

http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment s/game_preview_tide_of_iron/

This game looks cool... and while they may not be able to put the nails in the coffin of M44, they are holding a very big hammer.

So now I ask... How do we expand a game, add to it, and make it grow by adding more rules, new units and terran without looking like we have copied some other game?

Do we lock Richard up in a closet and take away his laptop so he wont see anything new and be accused of coping someone elses game design... Oh wait... my bad, it's they who are coping HIM!!!!

anyway... Battlelore is not going to kill M44, if anything it will enhance because the creator can cross bred the systems. Without having to plagiarize someone else...

In time all things shall come to pass... so all we have to do is wait and our expansions will come out. For both games.

I mean really, how many of us have been playing the original Axis & Allies for the past 15 years... and how little can you do with that game system... now look at M44... and how much it has grown in just two and a half years... don't know about any of y'all, but I plan to be playing this game with my grandkids.

      
GeneralV
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Thu, 08 March 2007 15:33
My local FLGS received an early copy of Tide of Iron. Played the game on Monday night and I can tell you that it definitely will not be replacing M44 for me. As you mention Randwulf, there may be a hammer being held but in my opinion it is a very tiny one. I guess it depends on what you are looking for in a war game.

The game took over 3 hours to play including set up. The quality of the game pieces was substandard in my opinion, including a game board that was warped. The game board comes in several different pieces that are laid together and every piece was warped. Not sure if this was an early version and the problem will be corrected but it really detracted from the game. The bases with the little holes and figures that popped in seemed like a good idea at first, however, this led to a longer set up time as we had to pop each figure in individually.

For those who enjoy games like ASL, I'm sure they will enjoy TOI. For gamers like me, who don't enjoy those types of war games, this game will not appeal to you mainly due to the amount of time it takes to play a game. To be perfectly honest, I began to get bored with TOI after the first hour and a half.

Bottom line for me is that M44 will continue to be played because it is a light wargame that can be played in about an hour. For the amount of time it takes to play 1 game of TOI I can play 3 games of M44. In my opinion, M44 has enough variety with the different expansions and is of better quality. I also love Richard's system.

One final thought, I also own Battlelore and currently it is being played more than M44 only because it is new. I still try to get a few games of M44 in each month. I really like the direction Battlelore is heading with the deployment cards and hope this is introduced to M44. A system which allows customized armies would be fantastic in M44.

[Updated on: Thu, 08 March 2007 15:35]

      
ISOisNo1
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 09 March 2007 00:35
I agree with the people who are hoping that they introduce some of the cool features of Battlelore to Memoir44.
But the thing is that R.Borg made C&C Ancients in the meantime with many nice features that were never introduced to M44.
What I worry about is that DoW is listening too attenitively to the voices who say "keep it simple".
I think M44 would win more players over if the complexity was more variable. The expansions have mostly just given us different terrain, the unit rule additions are extremely simple.
It's a bit lame to have the base game plus three expansions and you still pretty much just have three different units every game with slight variables.
I personally feel they should give the game a little more meat for the people who want that and the people who like the game just as it is can just skip those expansions.
      
JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 09 March 2007 01:12
I agree with ISOisNo1 (although he might not agree with me should he read this post!).

For months now we have been reading threads in which M44 fans have been clamouring for a British expansion, and discussing which tank should be used for the British. I don't think that this is what M44 needs at the moment. What I think M44 needs is a new edition. When I say 'new edition' what I mean is that the core game needs new rules. What I would like to see in these new rules is something which gives M44 the depth of unit differentiation seen in Commands and Colours: Ancients, which I have to say is my favourite version of the C&C system, even if WW2 is my favourite period for tactical gaming.

Having been playing M44 and its expansions- and reading this forum- for a couple of years now, the areas I would like to see developed are as follows:
1. Special rules for each nationality: the really good thing about the EF and PT expansions were the special rules for the Russians and the Japanese; I'd like to see this idea expanded to give each nationality its own unique feel, something that I must say is sadly lacking in the core game.
2. Simple rules to differentiate light and heavy armour: M44 doesn't need the detail of different armour types; but I believe the game would benefit if all armour units weren't identical.
3. Simple rules to limit the effectiveness of infantry fire versus armour at range: many people have commented on this, and I have come to believe that they have a point- a 1/3 chance of a kill versus an armour unit at maximum range is just not right.

My feelings on these issues have changed over time. In the early days of M44 I was perfectly happy with the way the game worked. Many plays of the basic game began to leave me with a feeling of an unfortunate 'samyness' in the way the game represented the British, American and German forces; but I still loved the gameplay. Then a combination of the Russian and Japanese special rules, and my experience of the nuances of unit differentiation in C&C:A left me wanting more from the M44 core game.

Thinking about these issues I have come to believe that the core mechanics of the C&C system are flexible enough that the kinds of developments I am talking about could be implemented without overloading the rules with complexities which would take M44 outside of the market at which DoW have so successfully aimed it. As I have said: Dow have already moved M44 in this kind of direction with the expansions, as well as C&C with Battlelore; and Richard Borg has gone in a similar direction with C&C:A.

I don't know if DoW would be interested in developing M44 along the lines I have suggested, but I strongly suspect that the game's many fans would support changes which enriched this great game. Time will tell I guess. Wink

[Updated on: Fri, 09 March 2007 02:09]

      
Randwulf
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 09 March 2007 15:47
Advanced M44... hummmm....

different types of units

Armor
Armored cars
Light Tanks
Med
Heavy
Assault ( Stugs and Brummbars for attacking towns )

Artillery
Indirect
direct fire anti tank
mobile and armored mobile

Infantry
grunts
Para
Engineers
Marines
Armored inf
Anti-tank teams


and so much more...

      
neil1967
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 09 March 2007 15:53
Quote:

3. Simple rules to limit the effectiveness of infantry fire versus armour at range: many people have commented on this, and I have come to believe that they have a point- a 1/3 chance of a kill versus an armour unit at maximum range is just not right.


How about infantry only hit armor with a grenade roll in close assault?

Simple, easy to remember (the grenade kind of makes it obvious, it's a close assault weapon after all).

About the general idea of a slightly more realistic version of M44, I think it would make a great expansion. Things I'd like to see would be:

1. Some kind of ZOC rule, such as units moving directly between hexes adjacent to enemy units having to roll for hits while doing so (maybe just 1 dice?). Sort of a combined ZOC/opportunity fire rule, I guess.

2. A split of armour into light, heavy and medium. Light could, for example, be 2 models and fire 2-2-2. This could be done using special unit badges, as with heavy armour in the original game. But new models would be nicer.

3. A split of artillery into AT and howitzers.

4. Period specific air rules, not the simple "allies get 2, axis get 1" dice rule as at present.

5. Some kind of random scenario generating system, possibly linked to a campaign system?

As mentioned, those who don't like the added complexity just skip the expansion, but lets be honest, the current expansions add a fair bit of complexity as it is.

[Updated on: Fri, 09 March 2007 15:55]

      
Randwulf
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 10 March 2007 04:24
OK.... now see. This is why BL will not kill off M44. We have now drifted off topic... way off... we are now talking about updates and advanced rules. We love this game. And even if they don't give us advanced rules ( with the carry case would ROCK! ) we will still be playing and making up stuff as we go and sharing our mods and play testing our home made scenarios.

Not all of us, but some will drift to BL, just as others will drift to M44.
      
yangtze
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 10 March 2007 22:07
Here here! I see CCA as more of a threat than Battlelore, though BL is a fun addition to the stable. Also, so far, I find the M44 forum community much more friendly and supportive.

[Updated on: Sat, 10 March 2007 22:13]

      
ISOisNo1
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 10 March 2007 23:47
What makes Battlelore more of a threat to Memoir than C&CA in my opinion is the fact that BL and Memoir are produced by the same company. That means that the components are of simular quality, the community is linked through the same forum etc. Plus the obvious fact that if the Battlelore expansions are more profitable than the M44 expansions DoW is likely to invest their efforts in that line of production.

It's interesting to see that Battlelore already has about 20 times more strategy material out than Memoir at the Boardgamegeek. Maybe it's insignificant, but I personally think it helps keep a game going if people can maintain their interest through dialogue on the internet. I know a lot of people don't always have the time to get a game together but like to spend a few minutes discussing their favorite game on the net. Memoir 44 just doesn't seem to lend itself to strategy discussion which I have a feeling might limit its following in the end.

I hope I'm not coming off as too negative. I love the WW2 theme and I own all the M44 expansions and will probably buy whatever comes out in the future. Battlelore just seems to have everyone more excited these days and I have a feeling it might have more staying power.
      
yangtze
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sun, 11 March 2007 01:26
Very good points.

BL is great fun of course, but I think CCA is ultimately a more important game than BL. As a threat to M44 though I see where you're coming from entirely.

I think there's been quite a lot of strategy discussion for M44 if you go back through the forums, but because of the small number of unit types it dried up once everyone had largely cracked it. That's not to say it's no longer enjoyable, because obviously lots of us think it is, but continued large scale interest will depend on further official input. The most important being, in my view, scenarios. The eventual appearance of the air rules might help, too.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sun, 11 March 2007 21:27
To address the topic directly...

No, I don't beleieve that BL will be the killer of Memoir.

I, like everyone else on the forums here, couldn't wait to get my hands on BL. However when I finally got it, I was sorely disapointed. Not only in the game itself (I found that what works so right for Memoir was so wrong in BL) but perhaps more importantly in the support.

It does seem now that DoW is more actively supporting BL and sadly Memoir has been all but abandoned.

No new scenarios...no support for the many cries of sorting and better supporting SFTF...no news on the carrying case...no new expansions announced...no computer version updates...not even replies anymore to the requests for these things on the forums.

If DoW is still planning on supporting Memoir...they are remaining very quite about it.

I have even offered directly to advance the game by way of advanced optional rules...new pieces etc...it was receieved with indifference to my further disapointment.

As a result, I became quite disheartened with the whole thing and moved on to other games (to my benefit, I have actually written my own response to the BL system which I did start quite sometime before BL was released. My disappointment in BL lead to me reviving the idea...for any history buffs it is a universal system with period modules, the first of which is set in Saxon England at the time of the Danish invasions...a period not very covered by other game I've come to discover).

So while in my mind, BL will never be anywhere near the game that Memoir is let alone what Advanced Memoir can become. It does appear, for the time being anyway, that it gets to enjoy the spotlight and support.

In the long run however, I do see that Memoir will prevail. It is the best game in the Command & Colors system strictly based on the fire and movement that compliment the card system so well.

Anyway, my two cents.
      
neil1967
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 12 March 2007 01:08
Quote:

As a result, I became quite disheartened with the whole thing and moved on to other games (to my benefit, I have actually written my own response to the BL system which I did start quite sometime before BL was released. My disappointment in BL lead to me reviving the idea...for any history buffs it is a universal system with period modules, the first of which is set in Saxon England at the time of the Danish invasions...a period not very covered by other game I've come to discover).


Do you have details of this online anywhere? Sounds like just what I'm looking for Very Happy
      
Jesker
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 12 March 2007 02:38
Brummbarr,

As an avid fan of M44, I have come away with the same impression as you regarding BL,after being really pumped up about it at first. Hopefully, M44 wont be abandoned by DOW. I am taking the patience route.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 12 March 2007 03:26
Jesker wrote on Sun, 11 March 2007 20:38

Brummbarr,

As an avid fan of M44, I have come away with the same impression as you regarding BL,after being really pumped up about it at first. Hopefully, M44 wont be abandoned by DOW. I am taking the patience route.

I wouldn't say that I was dissappointed by BattleLore. I just think that it was a bit overhyped and a bit underdveloped at the moment. I have high hopes for it still and think I made a good investment in the game.

However, I still feel Memoir 44 is the better game. I downgraded BL from a 10 to a 9 for the time being on BGG because I just feel it is lacking when compared to M44.

I think DOW is still supporting M44 - maybe not as much as before but they hav e teh BL expansions and Colosseum going out. They just mentioned they are still working on an online version of M44 and I still have faith they are working on the carry case and air sortie rules. Has DOW not delivered on anything they have promised so far? (Besides missing a self-imposed deadline here and there?)
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 12 March 2007 16:32
neil1967 wrote on Sun, 11 March 2007 16:08

Quote:

As a result, I became quite disheartened with the whole thing and moved on to other games (to my benefit, I have actually written my own response to the BL system which I did start quite sometime before BL was released. My disappointment in BL lead to me reviving the idea...for any history buffs it is a universal system with period modules, the first of which is set in Saxon England at the time of the Danish invasions...a period not very covered by other game I've come to discover).


Do you have details of this online anywhere? Sounds like just what I'm looking for Very Happy



Hi Neil,

Sorry nothing online yet, but I will be looking for some playtesters real soon (both online using Vassal and offline using the BL figs and board).

PM me or drop me a line through my website if you are interested.
      
RBorg
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 13 March 2007 04:30
Short answer is NO!
BattleLore will not be the killer of M44?

Longer answer - DoW does still has some very aggressive plans for Memoir '44.
The case, online version and other elements are all still very important pieces to me and the DoW team but because of DoW high standards, some of these elements are taking a little longer.

I do try to read the Memoir '44 Forum each and every day, and still find lots of good stuff and with many of you now helping and answering Newbie questions my task has been made a lot easier.

Thanks again to all for your support and kind words.

Richard Borg
      
Angelo
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 13 March 2007 11:45
i feel better Very Happy
      
ISOisNo1
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 13 March 2007 12:46
For me personally, the online version would be a breakthrough if enough people would gather around it.
I know a number of people use Vassal but a nice online version through this site would definitely attract some additional people.
I think it would also be a nice idea to make the online version available for people who have web codes from other DoW games.
I'm sure a lot of people would buy the game if they have positive experience of it online.
      
Jude
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 13 March 2007 15:10
I am also one who bought Memoir '44 after purchasing Battlelore. I have since purchased all the expansions, and am considering getting an extra copy of the game. The system does have appeal: I've always liked games where complete command is not guaranteed--I love the old Avalon Hill Across Five Aprils game, for example.

Jude
      
Sniper
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 13 March 2007 22:01
Angelo,

I agree, it is nice to hear from Richard that the support of M'44 will continue.

Game On!
      
xfoley96
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Tue, 13 March 2007 22:22
Richard's response makes me feel better, too, and I can understand needing to take time to perfect the case, etc. What is a bit concerning is the lack of new scenarios. I remember Richard saying he had many more in the wings, but it's been a long time since any new ones have appeared. I understand some of the new scenarios may make use of sortie rules, for which all the components have not been released, but there are so many elements to the Terrain Expansion that haven't been used, there's got to be some that could be released to the website. The number of official scenarios on the site now is impressive, but it's been a long dry spell. Every time I come on I go to the scenario page, hoping that DoW will have made up for lost time and put up 6 or 8 new ones.... Sad
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Wed, 14 March 2007 03:51
xfoley8 wrote on Tue, 13 March 2007 16:22

Richard's response makes me feel better, too, and I can understand needing to take time to perfect the case, etc. What is a bit concerning is the lack of new scenarios. I remember Richard saying he had many more in the wings, but it's been a long time since any new ones have appeared. I understand some of the new scenarios may make use of sortie rules, for which all the components have not been released, but there are so many elements to the Terrain Expansion that haven't been used, there's got to be some that could be released to the website. The number of official scenarios on the site now is impressive, but it's been a long dry spell. Every time I come on I go to the scenario page, hoping that DoW will have made up for lost time and put up 6 or 8 new ones.... Sad

Keep in mind that Command & Colors: World War II was in the works long before DOW published Memoir '44 (as is napoleonics, American Revolution, and all the others). So Richard probably has tons of scenarios sitting around. I wouldn't be worried that the "creative" element has dried up.

The "bottleneck" is more than likely DOW and limited resources in converting these over to the web-based scenarios that we have.

So again, I wouldn't worry about the lack of scenarios at this point. Once BL expansions get rolling and Colosseum ships, I think we may see that DOW can spare us some time and push out some more official M44 scenarios.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 March 2007 03:53]

      
Wee Sodjer
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sun, 18 March 2007 14:04
Dang it, ColtsFan76, you've gone and brought up Napoleonics again - just when I thought I had it out of my system.

Shame on you.

Twisted Evil
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sun, 18 March 2007 22:07
Wee Sodjer wrote on Sun, 18 March 2007 08:04

Dang it, ColtsFan76, you've gone and brought up Napoleonics again - just when I thought I had it out of my system.

Shame on you.

Twisted Evil

Napoleon, Napoleon, Napoleon!!!! Maybe if we say it more times, Richard will finally get a publisher!!! (And a naval system also - then I think my C&C wishlist will be complete)
      
Wee Sodjer
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sun, 18 March 2007 23:15
ColtsFan76,

You scratch my back and...

I'll back the Naval if you back Nappy.

Razz

      
GreatDane
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 19 March 2007 14:02
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sun, 18 March 2007 22:07


Napoleon, Napoleon, Napoleon!!!! Maybe if we say it more times, Richard will finally get a publisher!!!

It already exists - except Richard doesn't see any royalties from it:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/5481
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 19 March 2007 17:33
GreatDane wrote on Mon, 19 March 2007 08:02

ColtsFan76 wrote on Sun, 18 March 2007 22:07


Napoleon, Napoleon, Napoleon!!!! Maybe if we say it more times, Richard will finally get a publisher!!!

It already exists - except Richard doesn't see any royalties from it:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/5481


Perhaps I wasn't clear....

I want Richard to have it published.

I heard of Vive l'Empereur and I am really not interested in it.
      
GreatDane
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 19 March 2007 18:54
We don't agree on that. I also want Richard's version - but I'm afraid that there isn't the same amount of sales in Napoleonic battles as in medieval fantasy battles...

I would expect to see GMT eventually making the Napoleonic version when the Ancients has run its course.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Mon, 19 March 2007 19:30
GreatDane wrote on Mon, 19 March 2007 12:54

We don't agree on that. I also want Richard's version - but I'm afraid that there isn't the same amount of sales in Napoleonic battles as in medieval fantasy battles...

I would expect to see GMT eventually making the Napoleonic version when the Ancients has run its course.

We've gotten way off topic here....

But I recently ran into an old article about the C&C System were it showed that GMT was to publish the Napoleonic version and DOW was to publish Ancients. This was right before DOW released Memoir '44.

I wonder of the author just got signals crossed or if there was something to that at one point. When BattleLore came out, DOW made it sound like that waas supposed to be their first game ever but wanted more experience under their belts; that is why Memoir 44 came out (and caught the gaming community unawares from what I heard). So maybe they ditched ancients and went with wwii and that is how GMT picked ancients up.

While GMT makes the most sense to pick up Napoleonics, I would have hoped we could have gotten someone like DOW to put it together. I really would like to see the actual figures instead of blocks or chits. But I guess that is one reason to hand on to Eagle's NiE.

[Updated on: Mon, 19 March 2007 19:41]

      
JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 23 March 2007 17:31
Randwulf wrote on Fri, 09 March 2007 14:47

Advanced M44... hummmm....

different types of units

I have to be honest Randwulf and say that this list of yours is the kind of thing I was afraid of when I made my first post. Let me explain this apparently harsh statement. I believe that advanced M44 (aM44 hereafter) is a viable product for DoW. It would certainly help maintain my interest in the game. It seems to me that there are 2 ways in which this product might actually appear:
1. as a new rulebook to replace the one in the basic M44 set;
2. as an expansion set in its own right.

The former option means that aM44 has to be compatible with the pieces in the basic boxed set- swapping out a rulebook is one thing, creating new plastic pieces or countersheets quite another. This means that the rules changes for a proposed aM44 would have to be simple. Which in turn limits the amount of detail we could expect to see represented.
Quote:

Armor
Armored cars
Light Tanks
Med
Heavy
Assault ( Stugs and Brummbars for attacking towns )

At the scale of M44- where we are talking about armoured formations typically of regimental size- all armour is essentially equal. So what any armour variation rules in aM44 would have to cover is deviation from this mean, deviations which cannot adequately be represented via the current special forces armour rule. My core suggestions for this are:
1. light or heavy armour;
2. light or heavy guns.

Light or heavy armour could be handled using the number of models- 2 or 4 respectively. What I am thinking of is using dice rerolls, ie.
1. firing at light armour, reroll 1 miss;
2. firing at heavy armour, reroll 1 hit.

Likewise with light or heavy guns you could change the base battle dice. This might work OK with light guns- 2 dice at all ranges; but I'm not keen on the idea of giving heavy guns 4 dice (although this might prove to be the best option, my opinion here notwithstanding). So again, I'd suggest rerolls:
1. firing a light gun, reroll 1 hit;
2. firing a heavy gun, reroll 1 miss.

These are just my initial thoughts, so I'm not going to detail them any further here.

As for your other suggestions: armoured cars and assault guns? Armoured cars- yes; fast wheeled armour units would make sense to me at the scale of M44. Assault guns- no; there is no difference worth noting at the scale of M44, and where there is, it's a question of heavy guns or armour.
Quote:

Artillery
Indirect
direct fire anti tank
mobile and armored mobile

Adding AT- yes, this would be a worthwhile change IMO. Armoured mobile (we have mobile already)- hmm. I can see how they'd fit at this scale, but I'm really undecided about this right now.
Quote:

Infantry
grunts
Para
Engineers
Marines
Armored inf
Anti-tank teams

Grunts, marines, para, armoured inf and engineers, we have. Anti-tank teams- not relevant at this scale IMO.

Quote:

and so much more...

Well perhaps, but I really don't think that there is actually all that much which can reasonably be added without overburdening the game with extraneous detail. Like I said in my original post: what I'd like to see is a layer of additional detail to bring M44 up to the level of C&C:A. What DoW just won't give us is the sort of detail typical of a simulationist wargame. Wink
      
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