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JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 23 March 2007 17:42
neil1967 wrote on Fri, 09 March 2007 14:53

Quote:

3. Simple rules to limit the effectiveness of infantry fire versus armour at range: many people have commented on this, and I have come to believe that they have a point- a 1/3 chance of a kill versus an armour unit at maximum range is just not right.


How about infantry only hit armor with a grenade roll in close assault?

Simple, easy to remember (the grenade kind of makes it obvious, it's a close assault weapon after all).

Simple and easy to remember, sure, but I'm not keen on it at first sight- only allowing infantry to engage armour at 1-hex range strikes me as too limiting. I favour the use of rerolls: infantry must reroll their first hit when firing at armour. This has the effect of still allowing infantry to engage armour at all ranges, it just makes them less likely to get hits. A flat -1 battle dice when infantry fire at armour would be another option.
Quote:

About the general idea of a slightly more realistic version of M44, I think it would make a great expansion. Things I'd like to see would be:

1. Some kind of ZOC rule, such as units moving directly between hexes adjacent to enemy units having to roll for hits while doing so (maybe just 1 dice?). Sort of a combined ZOC/opportunity fire rule, I guess.

2. A split of armour into light, heavy and medium. Light could, for example, be 2 models and fire 2-2-2. This could be done using special unit badges, as with heavy armour in the original game. But new models would be nicer.

3. A split of artillery into AT and howitzers.

4. Period specific air rules, not the simple "allies get 2, axis get 1" dice rule as at present.

5. Some kind of random scenario generating system, possibly linked to a campaign system?

As mentioned, those who don't like the added complexity just skip the expansion, but
lets be honest, the current expansions add a fair bit of complexity as it is.

ZOC?- no. This is wrong for M44, and your op. fire option would slow down gameplay. Light and heavy armour?- yes; this is the fundamental unit differentiation which I think is called for. Two types of artillery?- yes. Air rules?- we will be getting those sooner or later (they're going to be in the carrying case). Random scenario generator and a campaign system?- these would be nice, but they're not essential to adding the layer of detail I'd like to see in aM44. Wink
      
yangtze
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 23 March 2007 18:44
All interesting stuff guys, but what I'd really like to see in an advanced M44 is really a whole new game. A hybrid game really. A game that takes the tactical and real unit detail of Panzerblitz (with Arab Israeli Wars enhancements) and melds it with the bluff, fog of war, crisis management, uncertainty, and mindgames of the card play of M44. Now, if that were done well, that would really be a worthy project. I've been playing a lot of Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, and AIW again recently, and I enjoy it, but I really miss the M44 card play. There's just too much certainty. It's too chess-like. I think the left, centre, right idea might have to be abandoned for a game like the one I'm proposing though.

I don't think anything would ever kill M44 for me though. It's simple but challenging, and immediate and fast. Nothing quite like it.
      
yangtze
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 23 March 2007 18:52
All interesting stuff guys, but what I'd really like to see in an advanced M44 is really a whole new game. A hybrid game really. A game that takes the tactical and real unit detail of Panzerblitz (with Arab Israeli Wars enhancements) and melds it with the bluff, fog of war, crisis management, uncertainty, and mindgames of the card play of M44. Now, if that were done well, that would really be a worthy project. I've been playing a lot of Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, and AIW again recently, and I enjoy it, but I really miss the M44 card play. There's just too much certainty. It's too chess-like. I think the left, centre, right idea might have to be abandoned for a game like the one I'm proposing though.

I don't think anything would ever kill M44 for me though. It's simple but challenging, and immediate and fast. Nothing quite like it.
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 23 March 2007 20:15
Some counter ideas..
Given the die is I,I,A,G,F,S

Vs Light Armor: as armor, but 1st star hits
Vs Heavy Armor: as armor, but Ignore 1st grenade

Firing Light Guns: Just use different range profile, eg 2-2-1-1-1
Firing Heavy Guns: Just use different range profile, eg 4-4-3-3-2-2-1.

Advanced doesn't need to up the complexity simply for the sake of increased complexity.
      
neil1967
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Fri, 23 March 2007 21:10
Quote:

neil1967 wrote on Fri, 09 March 2007 14:53

Quote:

3. Simple rules to limit the effectiveness of infantry fire versus armour at range: many people have commented on this, and I have come to believe that they have a point- a 1/3 chance of a kill versus an armour unit at maximum range is just not right.



How about infantry only hit armor with a grenade roll in close assault?

Simple, easy to remember (the grenade kind of makes it obvious, it's a close assault weapon after all).


Simple and easy to remember, sure, but I'm not keen on it at first sight- only allowing infantry to engage armour at 1-hex range strikes me as too limiting. I favour the use of rerolls: infantry must reroll their first hit when firing at armour. This has the effect of still allowing infantry to engage armour at all ranges, it just makes them less likely to get hits. A flat -1 battle dice when infantry fire at armour would be another option.



OK, we have a misunderstanding here, and the wording of my idea was ambiguous. The change proposed was to ignore grenade hits at range, but still count them in close assault when infantry attacks armor. Armor hits would still count at whatever range.

So, in effect, you halve the chance of hitting if attacking non-adjacent armor, and the close assault chance of hitting remains the same.
      
Randwulf
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 24 March 2007 05:12
ahh but remember, the scale is subjective. It can be as large as full Divisions or as small as individual squads... so if you are at the small end of the scale then the more variety in the units is a good thing.

But if I wanted that much detail I would dig out my ASL. I prefer the simpleness of M44 and do enjoy advance stuff but... basic and advanced... naw... Now it's elementry, high school with add ons but lets not go all the way to college... to much paper work.
      
JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 24 March 2007 08:21
yangtze wrote on Fri, 23 March 2007 17:44

All interesting stuff guys, but what I'd really like to see in an advanced M44 is really a whole new game. A hybrid game really. A game that takes the tactical and real unit detail of Panzerblitz (with Arab Israeli Wars enhancements) and melds it with the bluff, fog of war, crisis management, uncertainty, and mindgames of the card play of M44. Now, if that were done well, that would really be a worthy project. I've been playing a lot of Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, and AIW again recently, and I enjoy it, but I really miss the M44 card play. There's just too much certainty. It's too chess-like. I think the left, centre, right idea might have to be abandoned for a game like the one I'm proposing though.

I don't think anything would ever kill M44 for me though. It's simple but challenging, and immediate and fast. Nothing quite like it.


Have you seen GMT's Combat Commander yangtze? (BGG page here.) It's squad-level instead of platoon-level; otherwise it offers exactly what you're talking about. Wink
      
JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 24 March 2007 08:42
AK_Aramis wrote on Fri, 23 March 2007 19:15

Some counter ideas..
Given the die is I,I,A,G,F,S

Vs Light Armor: as armor, but 1st star hits
Vs Heavy Armor: as armor, but Ignore 1st grenade

These are interesting suggestions AK_Aramis. I thought about rerolls because it was the first way I thought of which would alter the chances of hits without increasing the possible number of hits, but I can see that not having to reroll dice is a worthwhile goal. That said, I must confess to a dislike of variant rules which allow stars to hit; but then again- that's how snipers work, so there is an impeccable precedent!
Quote:

Firing Light Guns: Just use different range profile, eg 2-2-1-1-1
Firing Heavy Guns: Just use different range profile, eg 4-4-3-3-2-2-1.

I think we're at cross purposes on this one AK. I was talking about light/heavy tank guns, not light/heavy artillery. Direct fire AT guns are the only change I would advocate to artillery.
Quote:

Advanced doesn't need to up the complexity simply for the sake of increased complexity.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here: adding extra rules to M44 to achieve more detailed differentiation of unit types will increase complexity by definition. I just like to think that a very small degree of added complexity could reap serious dividends in improving the game. Wink
      
JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 24 March 2007 08:44
neil1967 wrote on Fri, 23 March 2007 20:10

OK, we have a misunderstanding here, and the wording of my idea was ambiguous. The change proposed was to ignore grenade hits at range, but still count them in close assault when infantry attacks armor. Armor hits would still count at whatever range.

So, in effect, you halve the chance of hitting if attacking non-adjacent armor, and the close assault chance of hitting remains the same.

Understood. And yes, that does make your suggestion much more interesting! Cheers. Wink
      
JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 24 March 2007 09:11
Randwulf wrote on Sat, 24 March 2007 04:12

ahh but remember, the scale is subjective. It can be as large as full Divisions or as small as individual squads... so if you are at the small end of the scale then the more variety in the units is a good thing.

The scale of M44 varies according to the scope of the scenarios, true, and your point about unit variety at the smaller scale makes sense. But wouldn't you agree that most M44 games are on a larger scale, where units range from companies to battalions? My suggestions are therefore focussed on this larger scale, at which there isn't the same need for a wide variety of units.
Quote:

But if I wanted that much detail I would dig out my ASL. I prefer the simpleness of M44 and do enjoy advance stuff but... basic and advanced... naw... Now it's elementry, high school with add ons but lets not go all the way to college... to much paper work.

I think my adoption of the term 'advanced' was a mistake, especially since it summons ASL to mind! I amn't talking about a swathe of rules which creates 2 different games. No, not at all. You see, I used to read comments calling for all sorts of added details and quietly tell myself that those people were, well... wrong. Meanwhile I got on having plenty of fun playing lots of games of M44.

My mind was changed by 2 developments. First: the arrival of the EF and PT M44 expansions. Second: the publication of C&C:A by GMT. The Russian and Japanese rules in the M44 expansions highlighted to me something I had noticed in my many games: the unfortunate uniformity of the German, British and American armies in the basic game. At the same time the new nationality rules showed that national differences could easily be implemented without burdening the game; quite the reverse in fact. C&C:A showed that the Commands and Colours system could handle a wider range of unit differentiation than is present in M44 without a major increase in complexity. Taken together, these developments in the fortunes of the C&C system have left me wishing to see M44 raised to the level of C&C:A.

Will DoW consider developing M44 along these lines? I don't know. But they might if enough of us raise a reasonable case which can persuade them that it will boost an already successful product line. Wink
      
Randwulf
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 24 March 2007 09:54
Well here we go again... what happened to Battlelore? we have gone off into left field, talking again about how to improve and enhance our favorite game... will BL kill off M44???

Not a snowballs chance in south Texas...
      
JMcL63
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Sat, 24 March 2007 10:07
Randwulf wrote on Sat, 24 March 2007 08:54

Well here we go again... what happened to Battlelore? we have gone off into left field, talking again about how to improve and enhance our favorite game... will BL kill off M44???

Not a snowballs chance in south Texas...

Yes, I fess up: I really should've taken this topic to its own thread some time ago. I won't post any more comments about this here. My apologies. Confused

As for BL's impact on M44? M44 will survive of course, but DoW is a small company of real people, not a vast corporation staffed by robots. So each new product in their range will surely inevitably mean that there isn't as much time to devote to all the others. But that's no reason to panic. Wink

EDIT. I've started the new thread (here). I hope those interested in the subject will take the discussion there. Razz

[Updated on: Sat, 24 March 2007 11:00]

      
SnorriHT
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Re:Will Battlelore be the killer of M44? Thu, 11 October 2007 12:32
I find both Memoir'44 and Battlelore to be complimentary systems. I like both the World War Two Tactical, and the Medieval/Fantasy genres.

I like the inherent simplicity of Memoir'44 and Battlelore for one very good reason: As fast tactical sub-games for a map campaign. The ability to play a strategic turn and translate it into tactical battles enhances the value of Memoir'44 and Battlelore well beyond their 'light wargame' tag. I've played around with other systems, and frankly they tend to be either too complex, too long, or have crappy components.

Map campaigns are the ultimate for me, because it brings in the strategic element where people have to deal with supply, limited forces and reconnaissance. Focussing on planning and logistics creates the foundation for success or failure in the tactical game. Also in campaign games players tend to modify their play in an effort to preserve their units and achieve objectives without paying the price in gallons of blood.

So in summary, there is room for both systems and I'nm sincerely hoping that Days of Wonder will publish a Napoleonic or AWI game just so I have the option of Horse and Musket along with all that love and care which Days of Wonder give to all of their games. I so want to run a map campaign based on the Peninsular War Smile
      
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