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ISOisNo1
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Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 00:29
Having played most of the official Battlelore scenarios I think I have developed a preference for the non-lore version of the game. I feel the more powerful lore cards sometimes reduce the game to a random dice fest. I always thought the Air Power and Barrage cards in Memoir44 did more than enough damage but in Battlelore you get cards that can potentially do way more harm than those in a single turn.
What I'm really hoping for now is that DoW will come up with a historical expansion that further developes the realistic elements of Battlelore.
Does anyone else feel the same?
      
JMcL63
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 00:43
ISOisNo1 wrote on Tue, 27 March 2007 23:29

Having played most of the official Battlelore scenarios I think I have developed a preference for the non-lore version of the game. I feel the more powerful lore cards sometimes reduce the game to a random dice fest. I always thought the Air Power and Barrage cards in Memoir44 did more than enough damage but in Battlelore you get cards that can potentially do way more harm than those in a single turn.
What I'm really hoping for now is that DoW will come up with a historical expansion that further developes the realistic elements of Battlelore.
Does anyone else feel the same?

I agree with you about the power of the major Lore cards in BL, but I also feel that BL without lore is just a poor man's C&C:A. Or, to put it another way: the Lore rules are what interest me most about BL. This might appear to put me in a contradictory position- preferring the Lore game above all, but finding it unbalanced in actual play.

This was true until I tried Epic BL. Everything which I liked about BL in theory, but which made the game feel claustrophobic to me in practice... well all of these issues were resolved in my experience of Epic play (admittedly only 1 game so far).

So yes, I understand what you're saying, but I would suggest trying the Epic game before you decide that the BL lore game is unbalanced. It might be out of the box, but it certainly isn't on the Epic scale IMO. Wink
      
Sbrooks
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 05:17
I'd like to see a historical expansion as well, as this is what drew me into the C&C games years ago. I think the Lore system is fine for what it is, a feature in a fantasy game. That being said, I think a historical expansion would offer a lot, but I see one problem that would need to be addressed: leaders! I don't know if DOW will include them at some point, but the game feels almost incomplete without them. It's one of the main reasons I prefer C&C:Ancients over Battlelore.

A historical expansion would almost certainly need leaders to play out in a 'realistic' fashion - I can't image a battle of Hastings with no William or Harold...
      
blkdymnd
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 08:38
I can easily play it either way and have just as much fun. Though I do enjoy non-lore just a tiny more. Less setup and hassle.
      
céro
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 09:43
JMcL63 schrieb am Wed, 28 March 2007 00:43


This was true until I tried Epic BL. Everything which I liked about BL in theory, but which made the game feel claustrophobic to me in practice... well all of these issues were resolved in my experience of Epic play (admittedly only 1 game so far).



I played Epic-BL several times and I had exactly the same thoughts: Lore seems designed for the epic battles, in standard scenarois it seems to powerful / random to me
      
taliesinbard
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 15:54
I've yet to play an Epic battle, but I agree with the others that think that Lore with a standard sized game is too powerful.
After I played my first couple of Lore games I figured I would never touch the game again, because they were such one-sided battles. It's not always that one-sides, but the Lore is definitely too powerful.
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 18:31
The lore games I've won have been one not by lore, but by command cards. My last game, we added level 1 wizards to Agincourt... I won with the french... because I got both cavalry charges in hand at start, and proceeded to wipe the walls in mundane combat.

      
yangtze
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Wed, 28 March 2007 18:32
I like both, but I think I'll like both more with leaders/ heroes, and I'll take the opportunity to call for a dedicated historical medieval expansion.
      
Sabreman
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Thu, 29 March 2007 22:06
Lore has tended to dominate the regular game for me (I haven't yet tried Epic). In fact, after our first session dealing with lore we were quite negative about it because it altered the gameplay so much and seemed overbearingly powerful. Since then though we've learned to adjust to the style and I have to say I'm enjoying the game with lore much more than I did the standard game.
      
Black Barney
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Fri, 30 March 2007 16:46
I definately prefer Lore. I think the biggest problem I have with Medieval is that once you start losing by a material deficit (say 4-1 or something), it's almost impossible to come back. However, with Lore anything can happen! I was losing once 5-1 and pulled a Hills Rumble with a Mounted Charge to tie it up!!! I still lost but what a comeback!

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy playing Medieval from time to time. But it's hard on morale when you're losing really bad in one of those matches. It's SO hard to coem back.
      
yangtze
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Fri, 30 March 2007 17:10
I think leaders make a big difference there too. Hope we see leaders/ heroes as in BC and CCA in a BL expansion soon!
      
Talespinner
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Sun, 01 April 2007 14:50
I think the potential for heroes/leaders is great in this game. I like their usage in Ancients and think that similar or even more impressive effects are possible in Battlelore.

To answer the original question, I agree with cero that in standard Battlelore I like scenarios that do not use Lore, although I like the goblins/dwarves/monsters, so I tend to play scenarios that use them but not the full War Council.

In Epic the Lore cards are somewhat depowered due to the large board-size, which makes them work well there. I can play the game either way and enjoy it, but a couple guys in the gaming group will not play BL with the Lore deck on a standard sized map.
      
RogerCooper
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Sun, 01 April 2007 21:53
I don't like the lore rules. It simply creates another set of cards to manage. Managing the order cards is enough for me.

I am adapting the creatures to the non-lore version.
      
Scragnoth
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Sun, 01 April 2007 22:16
I think the Lore cards are great and some day I would love to see an alternative deck of cards (for maybe 4 new war council members?).

Its the drama in a well placed spell or action that makes games go in waves and one moment your way ahead and next moment you look doom into the eye.

This keeps you on your toes rather then picking your nose after a 4-0 lead.

I can't wait till The Guest hits the table ....
      
ISOisNo1
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Mon, 02 April 2007 16:53
Thanks for the replies.
I think I have come to the conclusion that the game works best for me if played with a fixed war council (as some scenarios suggest) of a level 2 commander and 1 level of all the other loremasters. That way the most powerful spells are hardly game-breaking.
The only thing I dislike about level 1 loremasters is the 2 lore-card hand limit. Maybe I'll just increase that to 3 or 4 as a house rule, might work better for me.
Right now I think the game is a bit too stale without the lore cards, that will hopefully change with a future medieval expansion.
      
Jude
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Tue, 03 April 2007 06:18
RogerCooper wrote on Sun, 01 April 2007 15:53

I don't like the lore rules. It simply creates another set of cards to manage. Managing the order cards is enough for me.

I am adapting the creatures to the non-lore version.


I'd be interested in seeing your rules variant for this when it is ready, RogerCooper.


I haven't been able to convince my partner to try the game with the Lore cards and Council, yet. We play only with the Command deck, but have no problems playing either historical or fantasy scenarios, so long as the Lore cards aren't used. I may get her to try out the advanced Lore rules this summer when we have more time to play.

Jude
      
andrewspong
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Thu, 05 April 2007 15:41
I have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, both variants. In the long run, I think the medieval version of the game wins out for me. The lore elements can reverse the run of play too dramatically for my liking, sometimes -- and that applies whether I'm winning or losing, I'd like to add!

Very Happy

[Updated on: Thu, 05 April 2007 15:41]

      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Tue, 10 April 2007 22:39
Yes, I !
We've got french "Heroic rules" that uses the mana face of the dice collecting mana points to make special actions : (3 points each)
1 - Out of section Activation
2 - + 1 Hex move
3 - + 1 Battle dice during a turn
4 - Bersek Attack (the infantry unit can make a bonus attack losing one of its figurine)
If you want more details : go and see torgan.net (in french)
Bye

[Updated on: Tue, 10 April 2007 22:39]

      
skiprydell
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Thu, 12 April 2007 18:53
Hawkmoon,

That is a very interesting concept. Might be a good alternative to using Lore cards. I am ambivalent about the Lore system. I accept the fantasy element in BL, but I prefer the historical side. I hope that DoW will enrich the historical potential with some of the expansions.
      
natybumpkin3
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Thu, 19 April 2007 02:40
I have two Battlelore sets and we play non-lore all of the time!!
We treat Battlelore as a hex based medeival miniature game. It's the French vs. the English! And we LOVE it! We gave the English the long bow, that is, same range of 4, but if you move it's 2 dice and if you remain stationary, it's 3 dice. I've been waiting for the 100 Years War set of miniatures to come out, but sadly, the Dwarves and Goblins are out first. I will purchase them as soon as they come out. Maybe I'll have to buy another game...
But for now, I've run across another brand of 15mm figures, that match up to the BL figures like a match made in heaven!!!
We now have crossbowmen, in the firing pose, with the same range and dice as in the rules. Mounted archers, green banners, move 4,as light cavalry with range of 4,2 dice if moved,3 dice stationary. Leaders, 1 per base, all units adjacent to him are bold, much like the stronghold, only mobile. If he is caught adjacent to an enemy unit he is captured! (2 victory points)
Bombards, 1 cannon, and 3 crew, does not move, does not retreat. Range of 5, 4 dice. And billmen, green banners, move 2,2 dice vs. foot, 4 dice vs. mounted. All the figures are painted, and the new guys have borrowed the Lore figure bases, so that a banner may be inserted.
      
liwargamer
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Thu, 19 April 2007 18:55
Naty I'm doing the same thing as you. The new Longbow and Stakes rules should help Historical play. I'm waiting for Spear/Pike and 2handed axe rules to come out. Also Cannon and Catapult figs./rules would be cool. We only play Historical BL. We find that the extra Lore deck is to much card play. I'm a Medieval fan ( playing WAB armies of Chivalry) But realy enjoy BL for a fast game. Hope that the Medieval sups. come out soon.
      
liwargamer
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Thu, 19 April 2007 19:02
Naty which 15mm figs are you using? Just bought HAT 20mm? figs. to use in my C&C ancients. But would like to add some 15mm to my BL armies. Let me know which 15mm you are using.




      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Fri, 20 April 2007 18:23
For Skiprydell (and the others !) :
Go to the BL Forum and see The 'Heroic Adventures" by Deux translated by 1CCStan at the next URL :
http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&th=10927& ;start=0&rid=&S=2b6e8102efa592eee71a5cdcb3955ce1
Greetings from the frenchspeaking BL community Cool
      
natybumpkin3
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Sun, 22 April 2007 01:33
Liwargamer, I'm using Corvus Belli 15mm figures. They match up pretty darn well if not right on the button! I sacrificed most of the "Lore" figures so I could use their bases. Then I remembered reading somewhere on the net where someone used "Fimo" clay, to make his bases. This works really well! Fimo can be sculpted then put it in a cookie sheet, & bake for 30 min.s at 230 degrees. Then just epoxy the figure to your custom base, works like a charm, & almost looks like the BL stands, at least everybody is as tall as everybody else...
Battle Lore is a GREAT game!
Natybumpkin3
      
skiprydell
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Sun, 22 April 2007 19:58
Hawkmoon,

Merci! I appreciate you posting notice of this translation. It definitely piques my interest. I'll give it a go at my Battlelore session.
      
Sbrooks
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Sun, 22 April 2007 20:44
natybumpkin3 wrote on Sat, 21 April 2007 19:33

Liwargamer, I'm using Corvus Belli 15mm figures. They match up pretty darn well if not right on the button! I sacrificed most of the "Lore" figures so I could use their bases. Then I remembered reading somewhere on the net where someone used "Fimo" clay, to make his bases. This works really well! Fimo can be sculpted then put it in a cookie sheet, & bake for 30 min.s at 230 degrees. Then just epoxy the figure to your custom base, works like a charm, & almost looks like the BL stands, at least everybody is as tall as everybody else...
Battle Lore is a GREAT game!
Natybumpkin3


Natybumpkin3, I'd like to see some photos if you have any...
      
liwargamer
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Sun, 22 April 2007 22:43
Naty, Thanks for the tip on Corvus Belli figs. My 15mm DBA armies were made with 15mm Essex figs.and they looked a little biger than my BL figs. I also read the post about Fimo and may give it a try.
      
yosemite
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Re:Who prefers non-lore? Mon, 23 April 2007 19:22
I like both historical AND Lore adventures, with some preference for the fantasy/Lore type. If DOW pursues an historical supplement, I'll want one! AND I'll be there for all the Lore support they offer as well! Guess I just really dig the game in ANY form!!! Very Happy
      
    
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