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Unbeliever
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TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Sun, 29 April 2007 21:17
Hi all.

I am pretty new to boargaming and I am enjoying Battlelore immensely.

The question now is whether to buy the entire M44 backlog, or preorder TOI from FFG, or go for Richard Borg´s earlier game Command and Colors: Ancients.

Anyone here who could guide me as to which is the better bet? For example, is C&C:A of any interest to anyone who started out with Battlelore, or has it grown stale?

Thanks.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Sun, 29 April 2007 22:07
I can't reply as to ToI as the game isn't out yet and I haven't played it.

I do however, own all of the C&C games. None of them are stale with the exception of Battle Cry - the Civil War version. It was dropped by Hasbro a logn time ago and while there are some fan created scenarios, I haven't found anyone new who plays it anymore.

Of the four games, Battle Cry and Memoir seem the closest pair, while Ancient and BattleLore are another close pair. Each game does a fairly good job of trying to represent the abstract concept of war in each epoch. Ancients lends well to the battle line, face to face combat, and trying to outflank the other. It is similar in BL in that it has the support and battleback elements. It also focuses heavily on the color of a unit, and still dividing unit mostly among foot and mounted types.

Ancients is a bit spartan compared to the production of BL. The figure are colored wooden blocks where you have to apply the stickers. The board is heavy cardstock. Terrain plays less of a roll and most scenarios don't even utilize it; the battle take place on the open field sometimes hedged in by an impassable river. I don't think any of this detracts from the game, but it can be a surprise for those used to DOW's quality. it is the only game of the 4 not to have plastic miniatures.

Memoir 44 shares BL's quality of production and publisher support. The support and battle back options are absent and rightly so. In this game, units act more independently. But you can also see how each unit plays a different part in the battle. Also, you don't have the penalty of losing battle dice when you move so you see a lot more action early on as units come into range before they slug it out in close combat. Terrain plays more of a roll in M44 and the scenarios seem to be richer for that. The expansions introduce neat little twists that give each army their own feel.

Personally, M44 is my favorite of the bunch. I think it is easier to memorize the units but just as challenging winning a match. I love the era and the feel of the components.

But really, you can't go wrong with any of them. (Though I may finally advise against Battle Cry as rumor has it it may get republished - no use spending extra on eBay to get it if it is coming out again). And most people are going to tell you simply: get the era that intrigues you the most. If you like WWII, get M44. If you really like Ancients, then that's your game. (And even if you like the Civil War that much, go ahead and get BC.) But if you just like the concept of BL and the theme means nothing, then Ancients is the most similar and if you want something slightly different, get M44. And if you want something nothing like it and have more time and money to invest, then maybe research ToI some more.
      
Unbeliever
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Sun, 29 April 2007 22:29
Thanks Colts, I don´t think I could´ve hoped for a better answer.

I think I´ll opt for C&C:A in the end. Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
      
ISOisNo1
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 00:05
My advice would be to buy only the base game of Memoir44 and then buy Tide of Iron if it gets favorable reviews when it comes out.
I have all the expansions for Memoir44 and I have enjoyed them, but if I could exhange them for the Tide of Iron game I probably would.
When I play Memoir nowadays we usually just pick up the base game and play a semi-balanced scenario. That way the quick-play quality of Memoir44 is best achieved.
      
Randwulf
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 01:55
TOI... naw... but all the rest of the Comand and colors games yes... Just hit ebay and coff up the dough and buy two sets of everything like the rest of us hard core types have done...


Ya know...
You are not really a hard core gamer if you don't have about at least a grand's worth of games sitting on a shelf that you have not played in over five years, but would not dare get rid of because they are such cool games and you might find someone that wants to play one of them sometime in the next decade...

I think I am at 5th level in the hard core gamer class, and just about to hit my sixth level.... If I have not already.


      
ColtsFan76
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 07:53
Randwulf wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 18:55

TOI... naw... but all the rest of the Comand and colors games yes... Just hit ebay and coff up the dough and buy two sets of everything like the rest of us hard core types have done...

Ah, thought I typed this but must have forgot - the other most common answer after "pick the one with the era that interests you the most" is "buy all of them"

Quote:

Ya know...
You are not really a hard core gamer if you don't have about at least a grand's worth of games sitting on a shelf that you have not played in over five years, but would not dare get rid of because they are such cool games and you might find someone that wants to play one of them sometime in the next decade...

hmmm.... $150 in M44, $150 in Battle Lore, $100 in Ancients, probably $150 in A&A, plus the other hundred games I can't even name and never played.... sounds like I am finally a hard core gamer!!!

Quote:

I think I am at 5th level in the hard core gamer class, and just about to hit my sixth level.... If I have not already.

Does each "level" equal each grand you have spent on gaming? Smile
      
GreatDane
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 13:13
Unbeliever wrote on Sun, 29 April 2007 21:17

The question now is whether to buy the entire M44 backlog, or preorder TOI from FFG, or go for Richard Borg´s earlier game Command and Colors: Ancients.

Anyone here who could guide me as to which is the better bet? For example, is C&C:A of any interest to anyone who started out with Battlelore, or has it grown stale?


MM'44 is actually earlier than C&C:Ancients.
And Battelore is the newest. It is only 6 months old and still only in its infancy, so it can hardly have grown stale yet.

Which system you prefer depends entirely on the scale of complexity you prefer and your interests in history.

[Updated on: Mon, 30 April 2007 13:14]

      
Randwulf
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 16:32
[quote title=ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 30 April 2007 00:53
Does each "level" equal each grand you have spent on gaming? Smile[/quote]

Yeah it does... Gamer for about 35 years... A grand plus in Battletech... about a grand in Micro armor... grand in 25mm fantasy minis, a grand in D&D, AD&D, and 3rd ed... a grand in Avalon Hill and SPI alone... another Grand in Misc wargames (Steve Jackson, DOW, Wiz Kids...) and I am not even counting the three grand in MTG Cards because I made about five grand selling the damn things and I still have a 100 pound bag of binders full of cards!!! and I quit buying and selling 9 years ago!!! so the cards I have left are worth a bundle...

If you figure I spent 300 dollars a year ( and I know my ex and current wife would argue it is much more ) for the last 35 years then I would have topped 10th level by now!!!!

Thanks a lot Colt... I feel old now...



      
ColtsFan76
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 17:49
Randwulf wrote on Mon, 30 April 2007 09:32

Thanks a lot Colt... I feel old now...

Especially since you have been gaming for longer than I have been breathing! Wink

So let me get this straight, M:TG moved you up 3 levels as a hard core gamer and then set you back 5 level when you got out. Your net effect after playing Magic set you back two level in hard core gaming? Yeah, that sounds about right.

I was lucky enough to get in Magic in its 2nd or 3rd year back in the mid-90's. I only had a college budget to keep me checked on my cardboard crack. But I got out within a couple of years and broke even.

But anyway, we derailed this topic enough!
      
neil1967
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 20:31
Quote:

But anyway, we derailed this topic enough!


Hey, I haven't even got to moan about what my ex-wife did to my 200+ wargame collection, or how she converted some 10mm and 15mm armies into 2mm armies with a hammer...

Yeah, maybe it should get back on topic Sad
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Mon, 30 April 2007 20:39
neil1967 wrote on Mon, 30 April 2007 13:31

Quote:

But anyway, we derailed this topic enough!


Hey, I haven't even got to moan about what my ex-wife did to my 200+ wargame collection, or how she converted some 10mm and 15mm armies into 2mm armies with a hammer...

Yeah, maybe it should get back on topic Sad

Shocked Shocked Shocked
      
billpurpy
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Sat, 05 May 2007 02:20
Command and Colors ancients outdistances Battlecry, Memoir and Battlelore by a long shot. The only knock I have on the game is its shoddy board. I actually prefer the wooden blocks of Ancients to the plastic figures of the other three. Even so, components aside, the gameplay of Ancients is by far the best of the system hands down. Anyone can care to disagree, but I don't think any of the other three compare to Ancients in strategic gameplay.
      
GreatDane
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Sat, 05 May 2007 10:12
I agree that C&C:Ancients has the best system.

But I am not particular interested in the period, and I don't like the components at all. Why go through the trouble of using 3D figures if they all end up looking like square blocks anyway?

Anyway. The best part of the C&C system is its versability which has now resulted it being used in 5 different games.

Variety is the spice of life - without it we would all happily be playing Go!
      
billpurpy
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Re:TOI vs M44 vs C&C:A Sat, 05 May 2007 23:12
Right on. Each system has something different to offer, which is a good thing. I definitely also agree that when choosing a system one should take in account the interest in the theme. I happen to love the Punic Wars and the campaigns of Alexander, which contributes to my favortism of Ancients over the other systems.
      
    
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