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ColtsFan76
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Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 25 April 2007 14:38
Whether you consider Tide of Iron by FFG a Memoir 44 knock-off or an original WWII miniatures games, I don't think you can deny that FFG is taking the fight directly to DOW. Just announced is their line up for 2007 and the first ToI expansion? "Days of the Fox." Instead of heading across the continent to the Eastern Front, typically the most common progression, FFG is headed south across the Mediterranean to introduce a British army, North African rules, and the appropriate terrain to boot.

With M44 fans clamoring for a British expansion for years, FFG seems to be the company to have heard the masses and responded quickly. Unless DOW can push out a British expansion before the end of the year, they will be chasing FFG on this one. Though most of the rules and terrain were established in the Terrain Pack, we have yet to see or hear anything about a M44 British army on the horizon.


Info obtained form here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/2007products.html
      
Nordiskanc
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 25 April 2007 16:09
We haven't heard a thing about the British army or the Italians... I think the lack of new scenarios speaks volumes about the the status of Memoir '44.
      
lugosi
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 25 April 2007 18:49
About the only thing that I can say in defense of M44 is that TOI has had a history of delays, much the same as M44. Only time will tell if future expansions will encounter the same delays. I, for one, have my pre-order in for TOI, and I am really looking forward to receiving it sometime in early May. It doesnt even have to be a one or the other type deal........we can have both Laughing Laughing
I still do plan on purchasing M44 expansions when they come out because I have really come to expect good things from DOW.
      
ISOisNo1
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 01:00
I think Memoir44 has lost it's momentum.
The most devoted players and contributors on this forum seem to have lost the spirit somewhat, probably because of the lack of attention Memoir44 gets from DoW these days.
DoW chose to bet on Battlelore instead and I guess the company isn't big enough to sustain the effort over multiple fronts.
I like Memoir44 as much as the next guy but a big part of my enthusiasm for games is taking part in forum conversations and seeing games evolve.
Right now the Memoir44 scene seems to be in a dead end street.
I still have to take my gaming $$$ somewhere so I got tempted and ordered a shipment of A&A War at Sea stuff to play with. I don't know if it's any good but it has some nice sizable ships to play with and an active community, maybe since the game is new, don't know.
Don't get me wrong. I still like Memoir44, it's a neat game, but I'm looking elsewhere to scratch the WW2 itch nowadays.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 02:16
lugosi wrote on Wed, 25 April 2007 11:49

It doesnt even have to be a one or the other type deal........we can have both Laughing Laughing

Maybe for you rich guys from Pennsylvannia! Shocked I have a heavy investment in Memoir 44 already with 2 of everything that has ever come out - what's that $150~$175 into it? Then ToI at $80 and the expansion around ~$40. That's a lot of cash wrapped up in only two games.

Don't get me wrong, I am not ready to jump ship. But I have to admit, this is disturbing. I think the world of DOW and their interaction with the community. But this tight-lip policy on future releases is counter-productive. It's allowing the border-line players to move on. FFG seems to have the resources to keep ToI going for sometime, even if they miss a few deadlines, and all while pushing out lots of other quality games and expansions.

DOW is probably at a crossroads here. They almost need to spin out a division for BattleLore if that is to be their flagship game and keep the rest of the crw working on Memoir 44, the other oft-desired expansions, and new games. If they don't want to commit to dedlines, fudge the release dates by 6 months, give as general estimates. I would sleep better knowing M44 British expansion is coming out summer of 2008 then not knowing it is going to be secretely released in 6 months. I don't know, I just don't like the direction and how another company is filling that void.
      
DrRednek
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 02:47
I've read the rules for ToI and I see the similarities, in terms of units of 4 figures and the use of cards. I see ToI and M44 different in terms of the design aesthetic. M44 is by design, a game of simpler mechanics. ToI is a detailed, and complicated system. I see the two systems appealing to different audiences.

I am a big fan of several of FFG's games (Descent and Twilight Imperium) and FFG is not affraid to go complex. I love these games, but they take a LONG time to play, as such I don't get to play them often.

The thing I love about M44/Battlelore is the elegance of the mechanics. I like the fact that I can play several games in an afternoon with out making my head hurt.

As far as being tight lipped about expansions: FFG talks about their expansions a year in advance, and draw a lot of criticism for postponing/changing releases. So it seems a game company is darned if they do (release information)and darned if they don't (release information).
      
eric
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 07:01
As we have stated before, we have not abandonned M44, far from it! We also continue to believe that focusing on delivering the products/expansions that you would like to play with is a better use of our time than discussing products before they are ready for prime time.

Besides, we believe in the old WWII saying that "Loose lips sink ships". Very Happy

eric
      
lugosi
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 15:18
I agree, too, with the idea that these are 2 different games for somewhat different audiences. I sort of see M44 as a 'gateway drug' to more complex games such as TOI, and, further on, to games like Avalon Hill's (remember them???) Squad Leader. The mechanics in M44 really are somewhat simple, but they still get the job done.


Wow, Colt, 2 copies of each?!?!?! Now THAT is a dedicated gamer......reserves in the wings! (I was trying to figure out how to quote yer message, Colt, but couldnt do it...... Crying or Very Sad)
      
lugosi
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 15:25
By the way, Colt, go to this site: thewarstore.com. I picked up TOI for $60 shipped!!! (they charge $3.50 flat rate for all shipping in USA!) Now, if someone tells me that company is bogus, or something, seeing as they seem to good to be true, I am gonna cry, cause they already have my advance order!)
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 16:23
lugosi wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 08:25

By the way, Colt, go to this site: thewarstore.com. I picked up TOI for $60 shipped!!! (they charge $3.50 flat rate for all shipping in USA!) Now, if someone tells me that company is bogus, or something, seeing as they seem to good to be true, I am gonna cry, cause they already have my advance order!)


To quote someone: just go to the bottom of their post and click the "quote" button. It will grab their post with their name and timestamp.

Thanks for the heads up on a cheaper version of the game. I usually go to TimeWellSpent.org (but they don't have pre-orders typically) for my latest games. I didn't pay full price for Memoir '44 either - which is why it it hard for me to pinpoint how much I spent without digging through old receipts. I got two of eveyrthing so that I could play Overlord and if I ever was in the mood some bracket style games with two matches going on at the same time. (Now battleLor eon the other hand, I have two of everything for the same reason but had to shell out FLGS retail in order to secure two Hill Giants)

If I decided to get into ToI, I think I would stick with the one set. I realize there are differences but I still feel they are too similar to justify the money. I am just saddened by the fact FGG is targetting DOW's core audience here. And as much as Eric and Mark say they are working on new stuff for M44, it gets harder and harder to sit still with every passing month of no new news.

[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2007 16:25]

      
lugosi
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 17:19
I guess this question is a little off-topic, but, when we order from places other than the actual company, is the manufacturer getting shorted? I hate to think that by ordering from a 're-seller' that I am shorting the actual company, thus denying them funds that allow for future development. Besides, saving $20 on a game is certainly nuthin to sneeze at! Very Happy
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 17:55
lugosi wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 10:19

I guess this question is a little off-topic, but, when we order from places other than the actual company, is the manufacturer getting shorted? I hate to think that by ordering from a 're-seller' that I am shorting the actual company, thus denying them funds that allow for future development. Besides, saving $20 on a game is certainly nuthin to sneeze at! Very Happy

Not unless the games are hot (and I mean stolen not popular!).

DOW is going to sell to the retailers at a certain cost with a suggested MSRP. Online stores, which don't have the overhead that a brick and mortar store does, can pass those savings on to the consumer. Publishers that offer to sell their games from their website stick with the MSRP to make it worth their while to sell a limited amount of stock first hand and also so as to not undercut the retailers. If the retailers had to compete with the publisher, they would have little motive to feature that company's products in their store. At least that is how I understand the economics of it.

The way I see it, buying from online retail stores actually earns the publisher more money. I can save on one game so I can justify buying a second. The people getting hurt are the brick and mortar stores. And really, I have no decent FLGS so I really don't feel like I am hurting anyone directly. (I have a generic GO! store that has every copy of monoploy and maybe half a dozen "designer" games and the rest are basically comic or M:TG stores that sell games as a suppliment.)
      
tank commander
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 26 April 2007 22:06
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 25 April 2007 20:16

lugosi wrote on Wed, 25 April 2007 11:49

It doesnt even have to be a one or the other type deal........we can have both Laughing Laughing

Maybe for you rich guys from Pennsylvannia! Shocked I have a heavy investment in Memoir 44 already with 2 of everything that has ever come out - what's that $150~$175 into it? Then ToI at $80 and the expansion around ~$40. That's a lot of cash wrapped up in only two games.




Try DG's War in the Pacific - $420 retail for 1 game - yikes!!
      
Sniper
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Fri, 27 April 2007 03:47
Eric,

It is nice to hear you say (write) that you are still committed to M'44. It is just hard to wait. Keep up the good work and bring us the British as soon as you can.

Game On!
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Fri, 27 April 2007 05:35
tank commander wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 15:06

ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 25 April 2007 20:16

lugosi wrote on Wed, 25 April 2007 11:49

It doesnt even have to be a one or the other type deal........we can have both Laughing Laughing

Maybe for you rich guys from Pennsylvannia! Shocked I have a heavy investment in Memoir 44 already with 2 of everything that has ever come out - what's that $150~$175 into it? Then ToI at $80 and the expansion around ~$40. That's a lot of cash wrapped up in only two games.




Try DG's War in the Pacific - $420 retail for 1 game - yikes!!


That's not bad. Funagain has it for under $400!! So other's can see:

http://boardgamegeek.com/game/22843
      
50th
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  Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Fri, 27 April 2007 12:25
M44 gets my vote. I really like the idea that you can play a scenario in about an hour, although sometimes setup can take a little while. I have every expansion and I too am interested in another expansion, how about a chinese expansion for a China vs Japan game? I would like a Brits and Its expansion, but as I've said before, you can do this now with the terrain pack expansion and the Its or Brits badges. And the British did use Sherman tanks. I have a picture of a M5 Sherman "Ram". My vote would be Brits first, then Chinese. I have played more complex games, and own several, but we never seem to have enough time to play the whole game through. M44 does not have this problem, and with a couple of house rules, is a little more complex. A great mix.
      
Talespinner
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Sat, 28 April 2007 03:34
M44 and ToI appeal to different groups of people. I own a lot of FFG games (Twilight Imperium is one of my favorite games) but they are a large investment in time and energy. I can play 5-6 scenarios in M44 in the time it takes for one game of Twilight Imperium, and it takes coordinating with a lot of people's schedules to pull of a game of Twilight Imperium. M44 is a matter of calling up a friend and saying, "Hey, have an hour to roll dice and blow things up?" Granted that it looks like ToI is a direct competitor to M44, and I have heard several people explain ToI as "M44 that takes twice as long and is three times as complex" Laughing but I cannot see myself making the time investment necessary to play ToI. If I have that much time on my hands and want a WW2 fix, break out some good old Advanced Squad Leader and call it a night.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 April 2007 03:35]

      
silentshadow
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Sat, 28 April 2007 08:23
lugosi wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 08:18

I agree, too, with the idea that these are 2 different games for somewhat different audiences. I sort of see M44 as a 'gateway drug' to more complex games such as TOI, and, further on, to games like Avalon Hill's (remember them???) Squad Leader. The mechanics in M44 really are somewhat simple, but they still get the job done.


Wow, Colt, 2 copies of each?!?!?! Now THAT is a dedicated gamer......reserves in the wings! (I was trying to figure out how to quote yer message, Colt, but couldnt do it...... Crying or Very Sad)


Neal at The War Store is a great guy and gets your stuff out to you as soon as he gets it in. I've done my share of business with him, and he has always taken care of my orders in a timely fashion. I use The War Store for games, figs, and terrain. I still order from DoW also, but Neal has good network of contacts and a customer base that crosses game genres.

Like Colt, I too am double stocked when it comes to M44. One thing is certain. Playing with more units means playing longer games, but it's a blast, especially if you have a strong opponent weened on strategy games. Try using the combined BL boards with victory medal locations. You'll live and die by your artillery.

On topic, ToI is a bigger investment, like all FF games, and I don't see it really comparing to what M44 offers for the price. Remember, M44 looks cool AND my kid can play it competitively.


      
Whiterook
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Mon, 30 April 2007 01:28
I must admit (rather embarrased, as I'm usually up on these things) that this was the first I heard of ToI; so I took a look see. It does look impressive, indeed. I can envision my wife's reation when I tell her, "Hey hon, found another game....ah, hon? Stop crying, dear." Very Happy

As I've got several hundred dollars invested in Axis & Allies Mini's, I'm too shellshocked to worry about pricing. If it offers quality gaming, I'm probably in the front lines!

I very much agree with the statements on M44's elegant design and quick play, which set's it apart from the norm, in my book; and a system that I am very much appreciative is out there. I for one will take Eric at his word and pray that DOW takes seriously the fan base here. I too have invested some serious coin in M44 with doubled-up purchases; but it has bought me hours of enjoyment, so DOW has earned my patience for now.
      
Whiterook
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Mon, 30 April 2007 01:40
lugosi wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 09:18

I agree, too, with the idea that these are 2 different games for somewhat different audiences. I sort of see M44 as a 'gateway drug' to more complex games such as TOI, and, further on, to games like Avalon Hill's (remember them???) Squad Leader. The mechanics in M44 really are somewhat simple, but they still get the job done.


That's a cool way of looking at it, as the mechanics of the game are simple enough to "find live opponents" to play, who generally aren't that interested in the more advanced ruled and time intensive games. I've a couple book shelves lined with Avalon Hill games that I've found just a rare few friends to play face to face with over the years; folks are just too busy to devote a full afternoon to one game.
      
Emcher
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Tue, 01 May 2007 04:51
DOW is not committed to M44, period. All we hear and see it Battlelore, Battlelore, Battlelore.

Get real all. Battlelore is not turning out like DOW envisioned, so there continuing to pump out more cludge, to try and make it something. Compared to M44, it's kinda of a no fun game.

Do I or will I play BL? Of course (of course after I get tired of M44). But right now, it's a pretty boring game compared to M44. I want BL to be successful, but it's a very shallow game right now. Maybe in the future, who knows?

DOW has deserted M44 gamers for now. Unfortunately, we have to deal with it. Because M44 is a great game, we can deal with it. Why? It's a great game.

But if DOW doesn't do something soon, people will start deserting if for other games in this genre. TOI is an option, but one most M44 players don't necessarily want to consider if DOW is supporting ME44. Sadly, this does not appear to be the case, therefore this thread.
      
GreatDane
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Tue, 01 May 2007 14:52
Emcher wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 04:51

But if DOW doesn't do something soon, people will start deserting if for other games in this genre. TOI is an option, but one most M44 players don't necessarily want to consider if DOW is supporting ME44. Sadly, this does not appear to be the case, therefore this thread.


There are still plenty of unused materials in the two expansions.
If people really have been fed up with playing the same 500 scenarios over and over again, then all they need is to spend a few hours creating some new scsnarious.

There is still room for new unofficial rules for many of the tiles we have.

People may have their reasons for deserting M44 for other games, but blaming it on the lack of expansions seems as a bad excuse IMO.
      
pl_walker
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Tue, 01 May 2007 19:11
I don't think Emcher is blaming it solely on the lack of expansions for M44. I see how you might get that from his post, but consider the following:

1. M44 players have asked for a clean up of the SFTF section. It is happening, but not because of DOW, it is a user initiated effort.

2. M44 players have asked for a clean up of the FAQ. It is also happening becuase of a user initiated effort, and not from DOW.

3. DOW consistently refuses to give any update as to the future of M44, just a "trust us, we are working on it". This despite the begging of the M44 player community.

4. DOW is semi-frequent in thier posting about BL, and is even inconsistent in their information posting between the two titles. The latest BL Chronicles blog entry says the following, "we think it might be worthwhile to step back and share with you a bit more of where we’re heading...." Nothing of the like for M44.

Now, all of this is evidence enough to me that DOW has forsaken M44 for the time being. I'm not certain how long this situation will last, but I'm hopeful it will not be too long.

However, the above information will NOT (I REPEAT NOT!!!) prevent me from playing M44 and supporting DOW. I love the game, and with the exception of the handling of M44's future, I have come to respect the company.

The fact of the matter is, that as much respect that I have for DOW as a company, I can't help but feel like we are getting mixed messages about M44. On the one hand, we keep hearing that they are working on stuff (Brits?, Carrying Case?, Online?) although nothing specific about what. We are told that they don't want to discuss the future because of the problems that arise from unfulfilled expectations.

Then at the same time, there are several recent posts to the BL Chronicles site that discuss the future of that game. Posts describing the short term (April, May, June), the middle (late this year), and the long (further into the future).

That is a mixed message.

I know I don't represent everyone, but I would rather hear that DOW is focusing effort on BL, and M44 is on a backburner for now, if that is the case. If not, I'd like to hear similar information about M44 that we have gotten about BL.

So, with no disrespect intended, and without any malice intended, I sincerely ask the DOW crew, what is the future on M44? No need for specifics, but what, in general can you tell us besides "we're working on it"?

What are you working on?

Do you hope to see something coming out this year?

I'm not asking for a specific date, or for details of what will be included with a product, but a general "we are working on a British expansion," or "we hope to have something new out in the next couple months," or even "we aren't working specifically on anything right now, but will be soon".

Please give us something more than nebulous comments. Show us similar respect that the BL community got with your latest BL Chronicles post.

Thanks,
Paul
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Tue, 01 May 2007 20:30
I agree with Ron and Paul. Ron is basically pointing out what most of us thought would happen: that M44 would become the red-headed step-child of the C&C system. Too much is being given to BattleLore. And now it seems some of the BL crowd is losing interest with BL because they don't feel things are moving fast enough or are developed enough. Obviously DOW meant for it to gradually build up but the question remains if they are having to overcommit to compensate over there.

I think Paul sums up my frustration. I support DOW, I own almost all of their games and will continue to support them. I have invested too much in M44 to abandon it and I will continue to play the game for a long time to come.

But I guess that is what is rubbing me the wrong way right now. I don't need the details. I just want the direction. What is going on?

I went through this before with Hasbro. I got back into gaming after a long hiatus with Hasbro's GI Joe TCG. It had one expansion and announcements of a 2nd. Then nothing. Then rumors of the game's cancellation. Through it all, Hasbro kept saying don't worry, we aren't cancelling the line. We are still going to support this game. Then all of a sudden, the game was cancelled and the website was shut down.

Now I am not saying that DOW is Hasbro. Far from it. Hasbro could learn a lot from DOW. But the point is, I have been here before and I don't like the way this is headed.

The cat is already out of the bag on the Carry Case. It was announced in Pacific. We realize DOW had problems. Just tell us that and your long term outlook on when it may happen. Or say look, it is on hold indefinitely. We thought we could make it work but it ain't happenin'. But in the meantime, we decided to develop the British expansion. Maybe we'll have it ready in a year.

Like Paul said, just give us a state of the union like you did with BattleLore. I think that would calm a lot of nerves.
      
Brice
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Tue, 01 May 2007 20:46
Emcher wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 04:51


DOW has deserted M44 gamers for now. Unfortunately, we have to deal with it. Because M44 is a great game, we can deal with it. Why? It's a great game.

But if DOW doesn't do something soon, people will start deserting if for other games in this genre.

I don't feel like we left the game abandonned as you're saying: I'm still working hard to program the computer version of M44.
If you don't call that support...
      
pl_walker
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Tue, 01 May 2007 20:56
Brice wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 14:46


I don't feel like we left the game abandonned as you're saying: I'm still working hard to program the computer version of M44.
If you don't call that support...



Thanks for the update Brice. And that is exactly what I was asking for. At least to some extent.

But this is the first that we have heard about a specific effort of someone since, well, since I got here. It is nice to hear that someone is working specifically on something. Smile I hope it is going well (I understand how computers can be).

Anyone else from DOW want to chime in on what else is going on behind the scenes? In a general, non-commital sort of way. Wink

Thanks again Brice.

Paul
      
Randwulf
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Tue, 01 May 2007 21:14
Thanks Brice... we don't want to sound ungratefull, we just want y'all to throw the dogs a bone every now and then.

woof woof...


      
eric
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M44 developments Wed, 02 May 2007 01:52
While I understand the desire for information, the turn some of these messages is taking is becoming a turn-off for me, not an inducement to share more, frankly. Sad

I have stated many times that we are working on _several_ M44 projects which will answer the legitimate needs the player community has. I have also explained that as a business practice, we judge it undesirable to talk about these things before they are ready for public consumption or at least discussion.

The nature of many of these projects (the Computer game, for instance; but not only) is such that the degree of uncertainty we have regarding how and when they will shape up is significantly higher than for a "regular" expansion a la Eastern Front or Pacific Theater.

As a result, we are NOT in a position to make predictions re the content, features, pricing or availability of any of the ongoing M44 projects yet. This is true of the computer game, and it is true of the other M44 projects currently under development. In other words, we have nothing worthwhile to share yet, no matter how much we'd like to.

This answer might not please, but it is the reality. It does not mean that we are not working on M44, nor does it mean that what we are working on will not pan out, or will not delight many of you.

Finally, it looks like a lot of the resentment (a strong word - but that is the way some of it is coming across in messages on this thread) is not so much coming from what we are supposedly not doing for M44 (we are) or the lack of new M44 expansions (there was close to the same gap between new M44 expansions during the period between the time the Eastern Front shipped and the time the Pacific Theater was released, for instance), but rather seems to stem from what we are doing or announcing for BL.

From the get go, we have been upfront that BL was going to shape up as a game system in a much broader form than M44 had been developed this far, resulting in different forms of communications (blog, etc..) and a substantially beefier release schedule than all our other games.

I also mentionned early on that what we learned in the process would then benefit some of our other core titles (M44 and T2R, to be specific) which have game-system potential.

This is currently happening, but it will not yield any immediate or short-term tangible or visible benefits - in much the same way that, although visible from no one outside the company, BL was under development for 2 years before release (a wonderful period in hindsight, since no one here was complaining about any supposed impact on M44 as a result Very Happy).

We have always strived, as a company, to be honest about what we do (both good and bad). This hasn't changed. If M44 had no future, we would have said so. The time will come when we can share what our M44 plans and products are. In the meantime, we will continue to focus on making sure we do the best work we can.

Eric @ DoW
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 02:17
well, before the plethora of "thank you" and "that's what I needed to hear" messages are posted, I gotta go out on a limb and say I am dissapointed in this message.

As I have tried to express all along, I am grateful for all the DOW staff has done in supporting this community. I am thankful for all the quality games you have published.

But in this instance, I don't feel any better. The fans have cried, begged, threatened for more info and all we have gotten is a regurgitation of what little we have been told already.

And with that, there is little more I can add to the discussion either. Confused
      
pl_walker
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 04:45
Eric,

First, let me say thank you for your candor, and your endurance of our pestering. Smile

You may be right that our frustration is coming from the announcements and plans surrounding Battle Lore. One good thing you can surmise is that if we are following the Battle Lore announcements, we are faithful customers. Wink

I ask that you look at this from our perspective for a few minutes. We are following the Battle Lore Chronicles site. On March 8th, the "As promised" Epic rules were posted. On April 13rd, we learned that Call To Arms, Epic and Specialist packs will be available early May, late May, and late June/early July respectively. On April 23rd, we learned that "the Goblin Skirmisher and Dwarven Battalion set" will be rapidly followed" with a 100 Years War set, another still-under-wraps Goblins Specialist set and, a bit further down the road, a larger yet-to-be-announced set". That day we also learn about the Epic Battle Lore additions that will be "opening up the door to interesting new mechanics (sub-quests, special objectives) further down the road". Finally on that day we learn that "Heroes of BattleLore" will be "the last core supplement we plan (hope?) to introduce this year".

Now, by my count, that is eight new expansions or rules additions that are going to be released for Battle Lore this year (or hope to be released this year). Meanwhile, what we hear about M44 is "that we are working on _several_ M44 projects which will answer the legitimate needs the player community has" and "that as a business practice, we judge it undesirable to talk about these things before they are ready for public consumption or at least discussion".

I ask you if that doesn't seem like a double standard between the two products? Granted, it may be, and that may be the way DOW wants it. If so, we will have to wait and be content with that. Smile

I know that whether it is a difference between the two products or not, I will continue to support the company with my purchases. I don't mean to sound as though I'm griping or complaining, I just see the veritable plethora of information surrounding Battle Lore, and the lack of information surrounding Memoir 44 and I get concerned.

Trust me, I think I speak for everyone here in saying that the only reason we bring this up is because we want to continue supporting DOW in the games we love to play. Not just one of those games, but all of them.

Thanks for the reply,
Paul

[Updated on: Wed, 02 May 2007 04:54]

      
Sniper
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 05:25
Well said PL, it seems like it's ok to lay out the next several expansions for BL but it is forbidden to say boo about M'44. It may mean nothing, but to me it seems like a bad sign from the powers that be at DoW.

[Updated on: Wed, 02 May 2007 05:26]

      
eric
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 05:57
Nope, that is not the issue (though I can understand how you could come up to that conclusion given the announcements you refer to).

As I was trying (I guess not too clearly, from your comment Rolling Eyes) to point out in my previous post, the reason why we cannot say more at this time is NOT because of double standards, but rather because the M44 projects we are working on are all DIFFERENT enough from standard fare from either a design or manufacturing standpoint that we do not have enough data to share anything worthwhile about them yet!

Whereas the BL stuff (or the standard M44 expansions, if we had some lined up for later this year, which is NOT the case) is of a much more predictable nature (ie we know precisely what it entails), this is not the case for the projects we are currently working on re M44.

As soon as the info becomes available, we will share it as openly as we do for BL. But making stuff up just because you folks would like to hear something doesn't seem right! Very Happy

As for the plethora vs dearth of info re one product vs the other, that is something we want to address too, by turning our main page announcement into a Blog in much the same way as the BL Chronicles, so that we can start sharing some more in-depth news about our various games as the news becomes available.

We had been discussing this for a while, and I was hoping for it to happen later this week. Unfortunately sh*t happens sometimes, and recent events (of a personal nature - a freak storm flood in this case) have forced us to postpone this development a bit further.

So, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, we hear you - we will address the requests for more info - but for now we really have nothing of a reasonable nature to share yet (and, at the risk of frustrating you all, no this does NOT mean there is nothing coming down this year, just that we don't have the elements required to discuss it cogently yet).

eric
      
Emcher
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 05:58
Wow. That's one heck of a lot of good discussion resulting somewhat from my post, I believe. I support everything that Paul and ColtsFan say.

When I wrote that post, I was feeling very frustrated with the 'general' messages about M44 at that specific point in time. We have had many posts by DOW about M44 that have not been specific at all.

I do find it hard to believe that there is not some better info and timelines about the work that is going on. Every good company plans projects, which includes progress and timelines. I would believe DOW does the same.

That being said, I will continue to support DOW, because they do put out great products. I will buy everything concerning BL because I think the additions will turn into a really fun and great game. That's called trust and faith.

To Eric, whom I've never met, I say that I was a little disappointed in your response to our posts. I think you're being a little to conservative in sharing the future of M44. Please take this with a grain of salt, since I have absolute zero experience in what it takes to run a game company.

To Brice, I say thanks for your comments, but working hard on something is what all of us do everyday in our jobs. But it really doesn't provide us with any more information about the status of computer version. Are you 25, 50, 75% done? Are we looking at 1, 3, or 6 months yet? That's all we're asking for, I believe.

Thanks for participating in the discussion, as you always have.



      
neil1967
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 10:13
Reading over this thread, I'm not sure if the complaints really come from the lack of a new M44 expansion or from a resentment that BL is getting so much new stuff. If DOW had never produced BL would you be complaining so much about M44?

Regarding a computer version, it could be 99% complete and the remaining 1% could take forever to fix, you can't give a time scale for these things. That's the nature of programing.

Look at the BL expansions (this is only based on what has been publicised, admittedly). Looks to me like the "rule" ones were probably designed at the same time as BL, and held back because you can only fit so much in the box. Same for the "figure" ones.

So they are production heavy/design light projects. Not a criticism, just an opinion. But the M44 expansions have been design heavy so far, and that is much harder to project release dates for if you want to get the design right.

If you all guarantee to buy them I suggest DOW make frequent releases of boxes of new WWII figures (Chinese, Belgian, Polish, Dutch, British, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Yugoslavian, Paratrooper figures for everyone who had them, likewise for Marines, a dozen different tanks for each country) packaged with a scenario and a special rule for that army. Do we really want that?
      
Emcher
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 14:07
neil1967 wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 04:13

Reading over this thread, I'm not sure if the complaints really come from the lack of a new M44 expansion or from a resentment that BL is getting so much new stuff. If DOW had never produced BL would you be complaining so much about M44?


neil1967, well said. But I think that all were (I am) asking for in the end, is for a more informative update.

Emcher's bowing out of this thread. Taking away from playing DOW games. It's been fun.

[Updated on: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:07]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 14:31
eric wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 22:57

Nope, that is not the issue (though I can understand how you could come up to that conclusion given the announcements you refer to).

As I was trying (I guess not too clearly, from your comment Rolling Eyes) to point out in my previous post, the reason why we cannot say more at this time is NOT because of double standards, but rather because the M44 projects we are working on are all DIFFERENT enough from standard fare from either a design or manufacturing standpoint that we do not have enough data to share anything worthwhile about them yet!

Whereas the BL stuff (or the standard M44 expansions, if we had some lined up for later this year, which is NOT the case) is of a much more predictable nature (ie we know precisely what it entails), this is not the case for the projects we are currently working on re M44.

Since you added a little more that makes me feel a little better I want to add a few more comments, some in light of what Neil said.

I am sure DOW understands the commitment we have to the game. It goes beyond just playing it and the 500 scenarios over and over again. We feel like we have ownership over a good chunk of it because of the limited work we are putting into updating the FAQ. Tons of energy is going into the SFTF project. For those not aware, we are taking all the info from the user created Scenarios and dumping them into a database. Then we are converting all of these one-by-one into a vassal file so we can start playing them one-by-one. Then we are trying to wirte AAR'a and reviews and have yet to figure out a good way of highlighting and promoting the best ones.

If the M44 computer version comes out, we could potentially be in a bad postiion where we put in a lot of work (namely creating the files in vassal) that are now all rendered obsolete by the computer version. If the computer version came out in the next month, probably wouldn't affect as as we are still building momentum. If it came out in 2 years, we would most likely have reviewed a good chunk of it and so the project would be at or near completion. And both parties accomplished what they wanted. But if it comes out in the next 6 months to a year, that would probably kill our project and we would have wasted a lot of time. The vassal files would be done but the bulk of the reviews not done, so a lot of manhours would have gone into the wasted conversion process.

Knowing some timeline would better prepare us for what we should do in that regard. Delays are understandable. Not having any timeline or progress reports is not.

As far as physical expansions, we also understand things can come up. It is also understandable that maybe you are trying to give us something completely different than the "typical" expansions we have received already and so either revised fabrication methods are needed or more playtesting or whatever.

But to me, there is probably one very simple solution that gets us off your backs and lets you work in peace while we feel that DOW has backed up all these wonderful words of commitment with some actions: give us more scenarios!

We have heard from Richard that he has tons of them pre-made. He had to have some very specific ones in mind when he put the terrain and special rules that he did in the TP. You committed to updating the official scenarios on the webpage. How hard can it be to review what he has and convert it over to the web? I would be willing to venture a guess that you could spare some time to devote to converting a half dozen scenarios to tease us into submission. Will it impact your other projects? Of course. But what, by a week or two, a month? And really what is a month when we have waitied what seems like an eternity already for news of any sort? Smile

So what say you Eric? Will you release the hounds, I mean, some scenarios? That would give what I believe is a decent action commitment that would occupy us for a while and grant you some peace to work on your projects without our nagging. I would think 6 new scenarios might keep us quiet for 6 months or so. Then in November, if you have nothing to share, repeat with 6 more scenarios.


[and for those of you just reading the M44 forums, we are not the only ones disgruntled. I would say well over 50% of the new posts on games like Pirate's Cove and especially Shadows over Camelot are also wanting updates on potential expansions. The cry for updates is pretty much universal to the whole board. The exception seems to be just BattleLore - for obviouc reasons - and the TTR gang. Though I guess the TTR group keeps screaming for official maps, so I that sounds like a cry for expansion news also.]

[Updated on: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:39]

      
pl_walker
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 17:13
eric wrote on Tue, 01 May 2007 23:57


...the M44 projects we are working on are all DIFFERENT enough from standard fare from either a design or manufacturing standpoint that we do not have enough data to share anything worthwhile about them yet!

...by turning our main page announcement into a Blog in much the same way as the BL Chronicles, so that we can start sharing some more in-depth news about our various games as the news becomes available.



Eric,

Thanks a ton for the "new" information I quoted above. I know it may seem to you that this is nothing, or not "new". But I think for the most part it is new to us. No, it isn't all of what we want, but it is something.

Sorry to hear about the flood issues. My parents weathered Katrina (or rather their house did while they were here with us), so I can understand the frustrations of water (and wind and water and wind!).

Anyway, even though what you have given us isn't really a lot of information, it is something new-ish and more than we had before. As much as I'd love to second ColtsFan's request for the scenarios, I'm not sure that I can. Smile Sure I want the scenarios, but I'm very curious about the new expansions that are "DIFFERENT" from standard fare.

I'll leave you guys alone (as much as I can) for now, and let you work on the new stuff, trusting in DOW that I'll enjoy what's being done. Smile

Thanks again for your time and for your consideration.

Paul
      
GreatDane
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 17:33
eric wrote on Wed, 02 May 2007 05:57

As I was trying (I guess not too clearly, from your comment Rolling Eyes) to point out in my previous post, the reason why we cannot say more at this time is NOT because of double standards, but rather because the M44 projects we are working on are all DIFFERENT enough from standard fare from either a design or manufacturing standpoint that we do not have enough data to share anything worthwhile about them yet!


This was NOT what I wanted to hear.
I don't want the game to evolve into something different.
But that's okay. I will just concentrate on what I already have, and there are still plenty of hours left in the system as it is.
      
hochwald
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Wed, 02 May 2007 23:52
..so at least the perfect time to release some new official scenarios from Richard Borg to calm down the thread a bit Wink
      
Marc1
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Re:Fantasy Flight takes the Fight to DOW Thu, 03 May 2007 01:25
I have to agree with ColtsFan76, Pl_Walker and all others who have posted their concerns regarding DOW's release of product information. I rarely post comments in the forum however I feel in this case that I should not just be on the sidelines (as it were) but to make voice heard. I would also wish that all those who have followed this thread and have not commented please do, even if you just send a P.M to DOW or just a quick comment in the forum etc.

I echo the sentiment that it would be nice to see additional scenarios posted while waiting for other M44 products to come out.

Marc
      
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