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enickson
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 02:17
This topic may have been beaten to death but until these cards get errata I will not be as happy with the game. Especially for tournament play where house rules don't cut it. I go to a gaming group each week. When every single person who plays Battlelore talks about the same 3 cards as being unnecessarily powerful, puts their extra levels only in Cleric, and winces when they play them or has a 'house rule' to 'fix them', then it is obvious those cards are unbalanced.

Yes, it is unlikely you will lose only because of those 3 cards. And it is possible that due to the deck's size you don't see any of them for games on end. But that doesn't change the fact they are clearly more powerful for the casting cost of any comparable direct damage lore card in the game. They also push the Cleric into the best Lore Master to have extra levels in (due to having the maximum scalable cards). I think the game will be better with them slightly toned down to allow the other Lore Masters and cards to shine equally bright.

Dweomer

PS. I did lose 'solely' to this card. A level 2 Cleric rolled against 8 targets killing 3 units and wounding at least two others in one turn with Forest Frenzy. No other cards or thought required.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 03:13
enickson wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 19:17

This topic may have been beaten to death but until these cards get errata I will not be as happy with the game.

According to DOW, there will be no errata for these cards. It is your right to be unhappy.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 03:44
you know a wargame in my opinion should have some element of disaster built in to the system what all the pepole who bother to complain about these cards have in common is the egsample they give is how THEY get ther buts kicked they never say i whiped my oppolent and felt teribel about it i mean you have a 50% chance of geting the card youer self when you get the card enjoy it as you sed your self they dont come around evry game these cards are powerful yes but they are not game killers maybe on an epic scale board they wont be so powerful

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 03:46]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 05:10
Well done, Roobarb. You finally made me laugh out loud! Very Happy
      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 07:50
Confused i was trying to serious(for once)but ill take em where i can get em Laughing Grin Very Happy
      
enickson
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 13:37
My opponent was the first person to say it is unbalanced and he winced as he played it. I don't think most people who are arguing for errata are trying to save their reputation or whining because they were massacred by the cards. They are simply trying to improve the game.

The cards being unbalanced is a fact. Whether you see it necessary to errata the unbalance is up to you. But should be game really take off and tournaments become more common, and the randomness of the card is proven to detract from the skill of playing it, then issuing errata is not uncommon.

Dweomer
      
gheintze
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 14:47
enickson wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 07:37



The cards being unbalanced is a fact.




This is not a fact -- it is an opinion. There are plenty of people on this forum that think the cards are fine as is. There are also several examples of people winning in spite of these cards.

enickson wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 07:37



and the randomness of the card is proven to detract from the skill of playing it,




The skill involved is preparing a strategy and adjusting your moves according to the cards you have and the play of your opponent. If you want a nonrandom skill based game, you'll need to try something else (try a eurogame Very Happy ). Part of the skill involved in commanding an army is adjusting to the uncertain and triumphing despite the odds. This topic has been discussed repeatedly on this forum as well as at BGG in regards to all of the C&C games.

enickson wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 07:37



then issuing errata is not uncommon.





As far as errata, DOW has already proposed a house rule, but not recommended it. They have stated that this is their final word on the topic and that no errata or other changes will be made regarding these cards.

Geoff
      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 17:49
youer opponent may have winced but he still used it and its not him who is complaing, which of corse you are intiteled to do and i apploaed you for doing so (i have my own gripes witch i wont go in to hear) just to say you should give these cards a chance they realy are rather good and in my oppinion they enhance the game no end. if its tournamant play that floats youer boat then you can play the non lore game and if you play with youer mates just dont use them but i think it will be youer loss, in my oppinion just moveing troops from a to b with out an element of disaster or luck can be dull but hay i could go on till im blue in the face and it would make no diffrance and vicea versa of corse.but mr borg and co do seem to put alot of thout in to there games and if i where you id trust them. Wink
      
Faithful
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:00
gheintze wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 08:47

There are plenty of people on this forum that think the cards are fine as is. There are also several examples of people winning in spite of these cards.


I will only say that it is true that many say they are fine while others find them game breakers.

RBorg has said that it takes consideration when setting up your war counsel to counter these cards, and then made this comment.

RBorg wrote on Wed, 16 May 2007 23:58

So how do you stop the Cleric and his very powerful "Hills Rumble" and "Forest Frenzy"?

Let me tell you about some of the guys in our game group.
- Ken always has a 3rd Level Commander?
- Stan likes to field as many cavalry units as possible with his specialist cards?
- George plays a very disruptive Rogue?
- Pat will beat the heck out of you with a strong Warrior and his aggressive play?
- While the other guys, all seem to have certain tendencies that seem to fit their own style of play.

So if your regular opponent always takes a 3rd level Cleric to take full advantage of these two Lore cards, perhaps you should review how your War Council is set up.

It is a very subtle pre-game strategy but it can be very effective.

Perhaps you should not place a Level token on your Cleric?
If you don't place a Level on your Cleric, only 8 of the current 15 Cleric Lore cards will be placed in the Lore deck. Furthermore, if you place one Level on all the other War Council members, the Lore deck will have at least 32 cards and may be more depending how your opponent sets up his Council. Chances are the "Hills Rumble" and "Forest Frenzy" card will not surface and sway the battle in your opponent's favor.



He can see the power of these cards to sway the battle in another person's favor. This leads me to think, after playing for eight years as he has said, those he plays with still have to take into account these two cards before the game ever starts.

This further leads me to think, they may be a bit over powered as you have to take two cards into consideration (over all others) and try to minimize their impact before you ever make your first move in the game.

This is my take, but I can not see where it would hurt to accommodate people that see these cards as potential game influencers, which RBorg has confirmed as a real potential.


Let me also say one more time what I personally see as something more important than HR/FF. The constant need for cards to be updated or fully explained in the compendium. Clearly they need to be tested to a greater degree.

This to me is the long term game breaker.

If a person over time is going to need a three-ring binder full of changes and corrections to cards and creatures and to constantly check while playing the game it will distract and detract from the playing the game with anyone but the most patient people, while you check and recheck the binder for to latest and correct out working of the cards.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 18:03]

      
Raza
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:04
I love these threads, they're like haemorrhoids in prose form.

First of all Phloid fair played to you for writing your response out the way you did it must have taken time and maybe helped vent some of your frustration. Still don't agree with a word of it but hats my right!

Second of all as much is your right to to oppose the cards its our right to defend them and say we have no porblem with them. To not do so gives DOW the impression that that is the total feelings of everyone on the board which is not the case.

Third surely this can be put to bed now. DOW have made their ruling, agree, disagree whatever but its not going to change. They gave you an alternative house rule to play so please give it a rest.

The whole reason Battlelore is constructed as it is, is that it can be played on how you like to play it. DOn't like War councils? Don't have them. Not fused on CtA? Its not a requirement for the rest of the game so you don't need to buy it! So if you don't like cleric spells don't play with him or them. Ensure that HR or FF is not in your selection of lore cards, hell make your own up! There are ways around this so why not use them?
      
Zeal
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:05
And, as I recall, several forum members jumped down his throat instead of thanking him for taking the time to try and show a glimpse of how his team plays, and we really haven't seen him on the forums since. . .

-Z

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 18:06]

      
sdafilli
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:15
Faithful wrote on Wed, 04 July 2007 01:30


Let me also say one more time what I personally see as something more important than HR/FF. The constant need for cards to be updated or fully explained in the compendium. Clearly they need to be tested to a greater degree.

This to me is the long term game breaker.

If a person over time is going to need a three-ring binder full of changes and corrections to cards and creatures and to constantly check while playing the game it will distract and detract from the playing the game with anyone but the most patient people, while you check and recheck the binder for to latest and correct out working of the cards.



Can't agree with you more..... this is becoming the biggest let down for me, regarding this otherwise and potentially, great game...

This problem should probably be attended to before any further expansions, as this will just get worse. Best way in my opinion is a "second edition" rule book and/or revised cards.

With the game in it's early days only, and with such a great list of rulings/errata already, this certainly warrants priority

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 18:19]

      
sdafilli
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:22
As for the topic of the thread, I think you need such powerful cards to keep both players on their toes.... adds to the suspense and excitement (whether these cards are in the deck in the first place, actually come into play, and to see the actual effects....)
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:30
Zeal wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 11:05

And, as I recall, several forum members jumped down his throat instead of thanking him for taking the time to try and show a glimpse of how his team plays, and we really haven't seen him on the forums since. . .

-Z

I wouldn't worry about Richard - he has big shoulders. He comes and goes and I doubt it has anything to do with comments of a few individuals. I much prefer to think he is busy with C&C: Napoleon, getting Battle Cry republished, or the next M44 expansion.
      
Faithful
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:37
ColtsFan76 wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 12:30

Zeal wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 11:05

And, as I recall, several forum members jumped down his throat instead of thanking him for taking the time to try and show a glimpse of how his team plays, and we really haven't seen him on the forums since. . .

-Z

I wouldn't worry about Richard - he has big shoulders. He comes and goes and I doubt it has anything to do with comments of a few individuals. I much prefer to think he is busy with C&C: Napoleon, getting Battle Cry republished, or the next M44 expansion.


I thought he was speaking of Phloid not RBorg??
      
Zeal
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:46
Faithful wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 10:37

ColtsFan76 wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 12:30

Zeal wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 11:05

And, as I recall, several forum members jumped down his throat instead of thanking him for taking the time to try and show a glimpse of how his team plays, and we really haven't seen him on the forums since. . .

-Z

I wouldn't worry about Richard - he has big shoulders. He comes and goes and I doubt it has anything to do with comments of a few individuals. I much prefer to think he is busy with C&C: Napoleon, getting Battle Cry republished, or the next M44 expansion.


I thought he was speaking of Phloid not RBorg??


I was speaking about Richard, I should have quoted, because another post appeared between mine and the one I was responding to. Phloid and I disagree on these cards, but do agree that axe-weilding dwarves should make wood nymphs, treed goblins, and Ents everywhere shudder in fear Very Happy

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 18:47]

      
dbc-
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 18:49
Roobarb wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 03:44

...all the pepole who bother to complain about these cards have in common is the egsample they give is how THEY get ther buts kicked they never say i whiped my oppolent and felt teribel about it

No offence, but this is probably the most stupid thing I have read so far in this thread. If you had taken your time to actually read all the responses, you would have realised the situation is quite the opposite!

I'm not satisfied with the decision DoW has made, as I would have liked to see an alternate card as PDF. But DoW has apparently said their last word in this case. I have moved on. But please be more professional in your arguments if you want to keep on beating this dead horse.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 03 July 2007 20:02
none taken Very Happy but im an ameter as no one is paying me for this

[Updated on: Wed, 04 July 2007 01:19]

      
gheintze
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 16:39
Roobarb,

Great response!! That was hilarious Laughing

By the way, looks like DBC switched avatars with you Surprised

Geoff
      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 17:10
gheintze
yea well i fancyed a face lift after joined the old gezzers club Cool

[Updated on: Thu, 05 July 2007 17:11]

      
jdw1710
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 19:19
For all those who are upset about the game breaker lore cards and unbalanced play of the game:

Please start collaborating on a new single set of house rules to remedy the imbalances in the game. You obviously like part of the game well enough that you haven't given up on it. DOW and all other players should be thankful for that. If a single set of house rules become commonly accepted and used, all players can adapt to play either the standard or "non-devastation" set of rules.

It's a game. It's about having fun. Make it fun for you (unless complaining about the rules is you fun? Razz)

Who knows, maybe DOW will consider some of the house rules you come up with.








      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 19:29
jdw - in case you missed itm this is actually the 2nd thread on the topic. In the first one, quite a few people put up their suggestions. I can guess that DOW reviewed them and that is how we got the official unofficial houserule that we have now.

To me, this argument hasn't been so much about coming to consensus on the topic (though tha tis what the detracters's claim to want). They really just want to push their own idea and have that accepted as the golden ruls.
      
Faithful
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 21:50
jdw1710 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 13:19

You obviously like part of the game well enough that you haven't given up on it. DOW and all other players should be thankful for that.


To be honest, I would sell both my copies of BL, along with CtA, and Epic if someone wanted them for a great price. It has nothing to do with HR/FF but more to the fact I have no intention of buying sets from now until they come out with the next great thing and end up with tons of boxes that become useless and/or irrelevant.

So, PM if you are interested, as many parts are still wrapped new.
      
jdw1710
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 21:56
First, I should have mentioned in my previous listing that Phloid's synopsis of the problems with the lore cards and DOW suggested house rule corrections was excellent. As is, the game has a strong luck driven element to it and DOWs suggested house rule changes lack luster imho. However, everyone has their preference of how much chaos/luck they prefer in a game. Some like a completely random game, while others prefer minimal randomness. BL, again imho and far from expert opinion, leans more towards a random type game, but far from totally random.

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 10:29

jdw - in case you missed itm this is actually the 2nd thread on the topic. In the first one, quite a few people put up their suggestions. I can guess that DOW reviewed them and that is how we got the official unofficial houserule that we have now.

To me, this argument hasn't been so much about coming to consensus on the topic (though tha tis what the detracters's claim to want). They really just want to push their own idea and have that accepted as the golden ruls.


ColtsFan76: Yes, I've read through a lot of those posts listings of suggested rule changes (some had very good suggestions). However, I haven't seen anything from this avid group of "detractor's" which shows any organized way to represent a new set of variant rules. I hope and doubt their intent is not to be rebel rousers. I've seen a post or two from R. Borg or DOW, which I'm guessing you're referring to the "official unofficial house-rule" (I believe by lowering number of dice used for the lore cards HR/FF attacks(?), avoid Cleric techniques are not preferable or fun). I'm wondering how many players are actually using the official/unofficial DOW suggested house-rules?

No doubt there are a few players who think that DOW needs to make an "official" change to the game (lore card adjustments mainly) through an errata and issue new cards, we all know that this extreme of request is a waste of time. DOW seems content with how the game works (along with a lot of players)-more power to them. I'm hoping that the people making the complaints have as much bite as they have bark. I'm only suggesting to the avid detractors to get organized and formulate a set of Silver House Rules to the group, leaving the Golden rules to be issued by DOW. Do these advocates of rule changes have anything more than rule-rants to offer to the BL community?

Just to start things out, someone (forgive me "someone" for not being able to find your name) suggested that instead of the terrain blast lore cards affecting all of that specified terrain, they should only affect 1-3 selected terrains of the specified type based on level of the Cleric/Wizard/etc. This is my favorite rule adaptation to FF/HR/etc. This variant rule still allows a chance of heavy losses, but not as devastating as the "total blast" of all terrain, and allows that lore playing player to take a selected chance of having some of their troops being hit by this effect. On the bad side, this rule is still very powerful and doesn't accommodate DOWs/R.Borg's idea, what I'm guessing is, to show the randomness of magic and nature.

What does everyone think of a making this a standard House-Rule? Any better variations?


      
Zeal
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 23:06
jdw1710 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 13:56

First, I should have mentioned in my previous listing that Phloid's synopsis of the problems with the lore cards and DOW suggested house rule corrections was excellent. As is, the game has a strong luck driven element to it and DOWs suggested house rule changes lack luster imho. However, everyone has their preference of how much chaos/luck they prefer in a game. Some like a completely random game, while others prefer minimal randomness. BL, again imho and far from expert opinion, leans more towards a random type game, but far from totally random.

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 10:29

jdw - in case you missed itm this is actually the 2nd thread on the topic. In the first one, quite a few people put up their suggestions. I can guess that DOW reviewed them and that is how we got the official unofficial houserule that we have now.

To me, this argument hasn't been so much about coming to consensus on the topic (though tha tis what the detracters's claim to want). They really just want to push their own idea and have that accepted as the golden ruls.


ColtsFan76: Yes, I've read through a lot of those posts listings of suggested rule changes (some had very good suggestions). However, I haven't seen anything from this avid group of "detractor's" which shows any organized way to represent a new set of variant rules. I hope and doubt their intent is not to be rebel rousers. I've seen a post or two from R. Borg or DOW, which I'm guessing you're referring to the "official unofficial house-rule" (I believe by lowering number of dice used for the lore cards HR/FF attacks(?), avoid Cleric techniques are not preferable or fun). I'm wondering how many players are actually using the official/unofficial DOW suggested house-rules?

No doubt there are a few players who think that DOW needs to make an "official" change to the game (lore card adjustments mainly) through an errata and issue new cards, we all know that this extreme of request is a waste of time. DOW seems content with how the game works (along with a lot of players)-more power to them. I'm hoping that the people making the complaints have as much bite as they have bark. I'm only suggesting to the avid detractors to get organized and formulate a set of Silver House Rules to the group, leaving the Golden rules to be issued by DOW. Do these advocates of rule changes have anything more than rule-rants to offer to the BL community?

Just to start things out, someone (forgive me "someone" for not being able to find your name) suggested that instead of the terrain blast lore cards affecting all of that specified terrain, they should only affect 1-3 selected terrains of the specified type based on level of the Cleric/Wizard/etc. This is my favorite rule adaptation to FF/HR/etc. This variant rule still allows a chance of heavy losses, but not as devastating as the "total blast" of all terrain, and allows that lore playing player to take a selected chance of having some of their troops being hit by this effect. On the bad side, this rule is still very powerful and doesn't accommodate DOWs/R.Borg's idea, what I'm guessing is, to show the randomness of magic and nature.

What does everyone think of a making this a standard House-Rule? Any better variations?





If I read your post correctly, there already is a whole thread dedicated to that here: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=92366#msg_92366 .


As I recall, house rule #8 got the most consensus.
      
jdw1710
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 05 July 2007 23:54
Zeal wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 14:06

jdw1710 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 13:56

First, I should have mentioned in my previous listing that Phloid's synopsis of the problems with the lore cards and DOW suggested house rule corrections was excellent. As is, the game has a strong luck driven element to it and DOWs suggested house rule changes lack luster imho. However, everyone has their preference of how much chaos/luck they prefer in a game. Some like a completely random game, while others prefer minimal randomness. BL, again imho and far from expert opinion, leans more towards a random type game, but far from totally random.

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 10:29

jdw - in case you missed itm this is actually the 2nd thread on the topic. In the first one, quite a few people put up their suggestions. I can guess that DOW reviewed them and that is how we got the official unofficial houserule that we have now.

To me, this argument hasn't been so much about coming to consensus on the topic (though tha tis what the detracters's claim to want). They really just want to push their own idea and have that accepted as the golden ruls.


ColtsFan76: Yes, I've read through a lot of those posts listings of suggested rule changes (some had very good suggestions). However, I haven't seen anything from this avid group of "detractor's" which shows any organized way to represent a new set of variant rules. I hope and doubt their intent is not to be rebel rousers. I've seen a post or two from R. Borg or DOW, which I'm guessing you're referring to the "official unofficial house-rule" (I believe by lowering number of dice used for the lore cards HR/FF attacks(?), avoid Cleric techniques are not preferable or fun). I'm wondering how many players are actually using the official/unofficial DOW suggested house-rules?

No doubt there are a few players who think that DOW needs to make an "official" change to the game (lore card adjustments mainly) through an errata and issue new cards, we all know that this extreme of request is a waste of time. DOW seems content with how the game works (along with a lot of players)-more power to them. I'm hoping that the people making the complaints have as much bite as they have bark. I'm only suggesting to the avid detractors to get organized and formulate a set of Silver House Rules to the group, leaving the Golden rules to be issued by DOW. Do these advocates of rule changes have anything more than rule-rants to offer to the BL community?

Just to start things out, someone (forgive me "someone" for not being able to find your name) suggested that instead of the terrain blast lore cards affecting all of that specified terrain, they should only affect 1-3 selected terrains of the specified type based on level of the Cleric/Wizard/etc. This is my favorite rule adaptation to FF/HR/etc. This variant rule still allows a chance of heavy losses, but not as devastating as the "total blast" of all terrain, and allows that lore playing player to take a selected chance of having some of their troops being hit by this effect. On the bad side, this rule is still very powerful and doesn't accommodate DOWs/R.Borg's idea, what I'm guessing is, to show the randomness of magic and nature.

What does everyone think of a making this a standard House-Rule? Any better variations?





If I read your post correctly, there already is a whole thread dedicated to that here: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=92366#msg_92366 .


As I recall, house rule #8 got the most consensus.



Yep, there's the original post..thanks Zeal! and thank you cebarial for the original post.

So, are there any players other than me (on occassion) using any of cebarials list of house rules?

[Updated on: Thu, 05 July 2007 23:54]

      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 01:57
Faithful wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 20:50

jdw1710 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 13:19

You obviously like part of the game well enough that you haven't given up on it. DOW and all other players should be thankful for that.


To be honest, I would sell both my copies of BL, along with CtA, and Epic if someone wanted them for a great price. It has nothing to do with HR/FF but more to the fact I have no intention of buying sets from now until they come out with the next great thing and end up with tons of boxes that become useless and/or irrelevant.

So, PM if you are interested, as many parts are still wrapped new.


LOL Laughing so can i take it you dont think this is a wet dream of a game? Christmas
      
Faithful
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 03:55
Two things make me want to sell the game.

1. Cards that constantly need updating with more and more clarification until you have a binder of "fixes" for the cards.
2. The view of constant minis coming out that make you "feel" as though you want to own them all in order to have a "complete" game.

[Updated on: Fri, 06 July 2007 03:56]

      
unihead
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 05:07
Faithful wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 21:55

2. The view of constant minis coming out that make you "feel" as though you want to own them all in order to have a "complete" game.


I'm sorry, but this always makes me laugh. No one is twisting your arm - if you don't want them, don't buy them! The game is just as 'complete' with the core set as any other.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 05:21
unihead wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 22:07

Faithful wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 21:55

2. The view of constant minis coming out that make you "feel" as though you want to own them all in order to have a "complete" game.


I'm sorry, but this always makes me laugh. No one is twisting your arm - if you don't want them, don't buy them! The game is just as 'complete' with the core set as any other.

You obviously don't understand the addicitve power of plastic crack. Very Happy
      
Faithful
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 05:45
unihead wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 23:07

I'm sorry, but this always makes me laugh. No one is twisting your arm - if you don't want them, don't buy them! The game is just as 'complete' with the core set as any other.


And where did I say I was going to buy them, or that I am being forced to buy them?

But you clearly miss the point, of pack after pack after pack coming out. They are intended to both enhance the game and entice owners to buy.

      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 09:48
Faithful wrote on Fri, 06 July 2007 02:55

Two things make me want to sell the game.

1. Cards that constantly need updating with more and more clarification until you have a binder of "fixes" for the cards.
2. The view of constant minis coming out that make you "feel" as though you want to own them all in order to have a "complete" game.


1.there will be no binder cos there is no need for one.
2.diffrent figs will all ways be fun but as sed before you dont have to buy them to have a complete game and the idea of figs constatiy comeing out all the time is a joke
3.and you dont enjoy the game then and if so after witch purcase did you find that out?
4.you make DOW sound like wizards of the coast.
Wink

[Updated on: Fri, 06 July 2007 10:01]

      
dbc-
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 09:58
jdw1710 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 21:56


ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 10:29

jdw - in case you missed itm this is actually the 2nd thread on the topic. In the first one, quite a few people put up their suggestions. I can guess that DOW reviewed them and that is how we got the official unofficial houserule that we have now.

To me, this argument hasn't been so much about coming to consensus on the topic (though tha tis what the detracters's claim to want). They really just want to push their own idea and have that accepted as the golden ruls.


ColtsFan76: Yes, I've read through a lot of those posts listings of suggested rule changes (some had very good suggestions). However, I haven't seen anything from this avid group of "detractor's" which shows any organized way to represent a new set of variant rules. I hope and doubt their intent is not to be rebel rousers. I've seen a post or two from R. Borg or DOW, which I'm guessing you're referring to the "official unofficial house-rule" (I believe by lowering number of dice used for the lore cards HR/FF attacks(?), avoid Cleric techniques are not preferable or fun). I'm wondering how many players are actually using the official/unofficial DOW suggested house-rules?


Recently this thread has actually been kept alive by people who likes the game as is. It seems to me like the only ones who are complaining are either new posters, or other people reacting to a comment every once in a while.
Those who are dissatisfied with the game has their own thread for house rules. I see no problem in that, as there are still players who find parts of the game broken or at least not optimal. And the game is here to be toyed with, and the forum is here to voice ones opinions.
I have personally started to use the "official unofficial" house rule. While I'm not completely satisfied with the solution, I have had no reason to complain further, as DoW has made their final ruling on this subject.
It is my understanding that a lot of the old "detracters" are in agreement with me. We are only asking for a PDF of the cards as a variant.
But maybe you guys are now talking about new players complaining? If that is so, I have no reason to continue posting on this thread, as I'm not one of those "detracters"...

      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 10:22
do let use know how you get on with this rule pointless as it might be Twisted Evil
and what makes you guys the detracters think you speak for any one but youer selfs i mean you all seem to whant diffrent things

[Updated on: Fri, 06 July 2007 10:36]

      
Roobarb
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 06 July 2007 13:33
maybe you could play lore games at minus 1 or even 2 war council and if RR,HR,FF are over powered what about mists of terror or chain lightning?

[Updated on: Fri, 06 July 2007 19:16]

      
Alistaja
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 21 November 2008 09:56
Kicking a dead horse-
In last game: I was winning 4-1 and the game was to 6 Victory points.

KABOOM.. I lost 23 (4 flags) units and the game was 4-5. My opponet attacked ALL exept one of my units.

This is not a bad spell... its a party Spoiler.
Good game and how is it possiple that this was slipped in ?

Me and my opponet decided to make some house rule to fix it.


      
toddrew
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Sun, 23 November 2008 01:04
If you are open to it, I am happy to try to change your perspective of what happened. The cards do what they are intended to do, and being able to see the play coming from a couple turns away is part of the game.

Players that are new to the game are often caught unaware by several of the lore cards. The cleric spells certainly, but Fearless, Mass Shield, Backstab,..., lots of 'em.

The tension caused by the lore cards is one of the aspects of BattleLore I most enjoy.

If there is no getting around the cleric spells, Creeping Doom, or the like, I do suggest the Medieval Lore rule-set. It is fabulous as well, but takes out the "shotgun" cards, and Assault costs 16 to play. Equally fun as the full War Council games, but quite different feel, which some appreciate more than the WC games.

Feel free to PM or email me, or keep posting in the thread. As FFG picks the game up, I suspect there will be lots of new players who will be going through the same experience.

EDIT: Also, I would like to extend an open invitation to anyone to play on Vassal (or face to face if you're close enough Wink ) a full WC game where one player takes a L3 cleric and the other takes his choice. I won't guarantee that the L3 Cleric will lose everytime, but I do guarantee that no matter which side I take I will have fun Very Happy

[Updated on: Sun, 23 November 2008 01:15]

      
toddrew
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Sun, 23 November 2008 17:00
Sorry, not sure why I cannot let this go, but I can't Laughing

Alistaja wrote on Fri, 21 November 2008 01:56


KABOOM.. I lost 23 (4 flags) units and the game was 4-5. My opponet attacked ALL exept one of my units.



On average the spells hit at 33%, 1 in 3. To lose 23 figures with average rolling would be around 70d. To roll 70d more than 17 units would need to be targeted. Safe to assume hot rolling was involved Wink Hot/timely rolling affects all aspects of this game, not just particular lore cards.

I don't mind people having an issue with these cards due to potential, but these cards have their dud moments too. The story that the cards and dice tell on the board is what makes this game so much fun for me. Chance has a role in the game. There are plenty of ways to mitigate its impact. I enjoy sharing/discussing them.
      
toddrew
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Sun, 23 November 2008 17:13
As long as I'm here (and, not sure if anyone else is at this point Laughing ):

enickson wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 18:17


PS. I did lose 'solely' to this card. A level 2 Cleric rolled against 8 targets killing 3 units and wounding at least two others in one turn with Forest Frenzy. No other cards or thought required.


The state of those units prior to the casting of FF wasn't disclosed, but:

8 units targeted -> 24d rolled, should expect around 8 hits. They won't be perfectly randomly distributed, and I won't go into the gaussian distribution (those days are quite a bit behind me Smile ), but if that spell alone caused 3 units to be taken out, I would venture to guess that some other mechanics in the game had a play in their demise. In fact, unless all the units targeted were mounted units, had to have been some other forces at work to take the banner.

FF/HR/RR/Creeping Doom are all powerful (but not all-powerful Wink ) cards, but their best use is either to clean up after or precede a big attack. If they are used indiscriminately, sure dumbluck will have its day now and again, but more often than not the situation is entirely recoverable for the victimized side.

[Updated on: Sun, 23 November 2008 17:18]

      
toddrew
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Sun, 23 November 2008 17:16
Now I remember why I instituted a self-imposed ban on posting about this part of the game Laughing I tend to get carried away Very Happy
      
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