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Achtung Panzer
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Thu, 14 November 2013 08:50
Good reply Ras and maybe that was what was at the back of my mind when only covering the European theatres.
      
Rork
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Thu, 14 November 2013 12:37
Thanks for the answer. I'll keep that in mind when tackling the Japanese campaigns.
I presume that the same house rules apply to North African scenarios, right?
Still not clear about whether 2d also applies to strafing (according to the scenario date, of course).

[Updated on: Thu, 14 November 2013 12:37]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Thu, 14 November 2013 16:17
Rork wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 15:37

Thanks for the answer. I'll keep that in mind when tackling the Japanese campaigns.
I presume that the same house rules apply to North African scenarios, right?
Still not clear about whether 2d also applies to strafing (according to the scenario date, of course).


If I were you, I would never use 2 dice for Strafing if you're using the Air Pack. Here's why:

- With the Air Power card, 2 dice simulates there being more airplanes around, and makes them quite effective and dangerous. You get to attack 4 hexes and have a good chance of eliminating half of an Infantry unit or wiping out a full-strength Artillery unit.

- With Airplanes flying around, 2 dice would be way over powered! If a general is careful, he can keep his Plane in the air for 4+ turns...if he manages to strafe on every turn, he's attacking 4 (turns) x 3 (hexes) = 12 hexes. At two dice each, he would be able to roll 24 dice that all force retreats and hit on Stars! That's just too much.

The idea with the Air Pack is to increase the number of times a player can bring an Airplane onto the board or avoid the Air Check so that he can keep his plane in the air. So instead of increasing the strength of your Strafing, you should allow the player to bring Planes on with a Recon-1 card or something like that.

I hope this makes sense! It's still early for me and I'm in a rush. Cool
      
Rork
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Thu, 14 November 2013 22:23
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

If I were you, I would never use 2 dice for Strafing if you're using the Air Pack. Here's why:

- With the Air Power card, 2 dice simulates there being more airplanes around, and makes them quite effective and dangerous. You get to attack 4 hexes and have a good chance of eliminating half of an Infantry unit or wiping out a full-strength Artillery unit.

Quote from the Air Pack rulebook: (...) When Air Rules are in effect, Air Power cards MUST be played as if they were Air Sortie cards instead.
This means that effectively the Air Power card only works as an Air Sortie, therefore its bombing effect is never used, therefore the only way of reproducing air superiority would be through strafing runs, the only air attack option, therefore strafing is the only time when you actually get to use 2d. Am I reading this wrong?

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

- With Airplanes flying around, 2 dice would be way over powered! If a general is careful, he can keep his Plane in the air for 4+ turns...if he manages to strafe on every turn, he's attacking 4 (turns) x 3 (hexes) = 12 hexes. At two dice each, he would be able to roll 24 dice that all force retreats and hit on Stars! That's just too much.

Dunno, I can think of several things that could (and repeatedly did) happen to shift attention from the plane: using another Special Action more suited/useful to the tactical situation, reacting to a critical situation in a different section, playing a Tactic Cards that don't involve the plane, failing an air check (forced or not) or simply running out of orders for the plane. Not to mention the fact that medals are won by eliminating units, while depleting them doesn't change anything in terms of fire, and hits are pretty far from being a given Twisted Evil . All of these are very likely to deter constant strafing.

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

So instead of increasing the strength of your Strafing, you should allow the player to bring Planes on with a Recon-1 card or something like that.

The Air Strikes & Blitz rules have already got this covered. Maybe you were refering to applying this rule to all Recon cards or maybe you were suggesting to use this rule even when Air Strikes & Blitz no longer apply. Or am I missing something?

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

I hope this makes sense! It's still early for me and I'm in a rush. Cool

No problemo, thanks for the answers and I hope I'm making sense Laughing .

Quick check: the Air Pack rulebook states that when playing an Air Sortie in conjunction with a Section card, the player uses "one order from the Section card just played to make an Air Sortie (...) while (...) issuing the remaining orders to other units on the ground." I'm reading this that if I play a 3 unit order Section card, 1 order goes to the plane, the reamining 2 to two ground units - correct?

[Updated on: Thu, 14 November 2013 22:24]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Fri, 15 November 2013 06:17
Rork wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 01:23

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

If I were you, I would never use 2 dice for Strafing if you're using the Air Pack. Here's why:

- With the Air Power card, 2 dice simulates there being more airplanes around, and makes them quite effective and dangerous. You get to attack 4 hexes and have a good chance of eliminating half of an Infantry unit or wiping out a full-strength Artillery unit.

Quote from the Air Pack rulebook: (...) When Air Rules are in effect, Air Power cards MUST be played as if they were Air Sortie cards instead.
This means that effectively the Air Power card only works as an Air Sortie, therefore its bombing effect is never used, therefore the only way of reproducing air superiority would be through strafing runs, the only air attack option, therefore strafing is the only time when you actually get to use 2d. Am I reading this wrong?


I assumed that you were either playing with the Airplanes (Strafing) or playing without the planes and using Air Power. If you are only playing with the Air Pack then yes, you will only Strafe. And no, the Strafing will never be with 2 dice unless you use your own rules. But I strongly recommend you not make Strafing so strong for the reasons below!

Rork wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 01:23

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

- With Airplanes flying around, 2 dice would be way over powered! If a general is careful, he can keep his Plane in the air for 4+ turns...if he manages to strafe on every turn, he's attacking 4 (turns) x 3 (hexes) = 12 hexes. At two dice each, he would be able to roll 24 dice that all force retreats and hit on Stars! That's just too much.

Dunno, I can think of several things that could (and repeatedly did) happen to shift attention from the plane: using another Special Action more suited/useful to the tactical situation, reacting to a critical situation in a different section, playing a Tactic Cards that don't involve the plane, failing an air check (forced or not) or simply running out of orders for the plane. Not to mention the fact that medals are won by eliminating units, while depleting them doesn't change anything in terms of fire, and hits are pretty far from being a given Twisted Evil . All of these are very likely to deter constant strafing.


That's why I said "If you are careful". It's not always easy to keep your plane in the air, but it's entirely possible to do it and if my plane is rolling 2 dice every attack, I'm going to make sure it stays in the air for as long as it can. Over half of your reasons for letting the Plane fly off the board are choices you're making either at the moment (any time you chose not to order the plane for whatever reason) or situations you may not have planned properly for (no orders in the section).

Of course you are welcome to make those choices, but you might be surprised at the result if you go up against a General who knows how to keep his plane in the air (whether he is Strafing with 1 die or 2 dice)!

As far as units not being eliminated by the Planes, that is not the only effect that Planes have on a game. Even if a Plane does not eliminate your Armor unit, going from a full-strength unit down to a 1-figure unit will completely change the way you use the unit. You will no longer push the unit forward to support an attack for fear of me eliminating it and getting the medal. Don't underestimate the strength of the Planes! Smile

Rork wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 01:23

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

So instead of increasing the strength of your Strafing, you should allow the player to bring Planes on with a Recon-1 card or something like that.

The Air Strikes & Blitz rules have already got this covered. Maybe you were refering to applying this rule to all Recon cards or maybe you were suggesting to use this rule even when Air Strikes & Blitz no longer apply. Or am I missing something?


I'm talking about Air Strikes and Blitz rules. But depending on which theater you're playing, and what time period, you might want to modify the Blitz rules to apply for the other side, since they are normally only for the Germans. Of course we're talking about House rules here.

Rork wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 01:23

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

I hope this makes sense! It's still early for me and I'm in a rush. Cool

No problemo, thanks for the answers and I hope I'm making sense Laughing .

Quick check: the Air Pack rulebook states that when playing an Air Sortie in conjunction with a Section card, the player uses "one order from the Section card just played to make an Air Sortie (...) while (...) issuing the remaining orders to other units on the ground." I'm reading this that if I play a 3 unit order Section card, 1 order goes to the plane, the reamining 2 to two ground units - correct?



You are correct. One of the orders is used by the plane, which is why it's nice when you have an Assault card and can order everyone!

[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2013 06:23]

      
50th
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Fri, 15 November 2013 09:40
I like Roark's rule on airpower, and I think I did something like this in the latest version of my air rules.I wrote this about strafing: and that from 1939-1943 German air units can roll two dice on each targeted hex, Japanese roll two and Soviet air units always rolls one die per hex. (I'm going to add) After 1943, Allies roll two dice, and Axis roll one die.
      
Rork
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Fri, 15 November 2013 10:53
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 07:17

I assumed that you were either playing with the Airplane (Strafing) or playing without the planes and using Air Power. If you are only playing with the Air Pack then yes, you will only Strafe. And no, the Strafing will never be with 2 dice unless you use your own rules.

Whenever possible, we're using the Air Pack, which was what led me to this thread in the first place and the Early/Late Air War die modification. So yea, it's house rules all the way (or at least specific rules for an unwritten yet campaign).

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 07:17

(...) It's not always easy to keep your plane in the air, but it's entirely possible to do it and if my plane is rolling 2 dice every attack, I'm going to make sure it stays in the air for as long as it can. Over half of your reasons for letting the Plane fly off the board are choices you're making either at the moment (any time you chose not to order the plane for whatever reason) or situations you may not have planned properly for (no orders in the section).
(...) Even if a Plane does not eliminate your Armor unit, going from a full-strength unit down to a 1-figure unit will completely change the way you use the unit. You will no longer push the unit forward to support an attack for fear of me eliminating it and getting the medal.

Planning properly depends on drawing cards: you will eventually run out of orders on one section or another, so there'll be plenty of times when you'll be reacting on the spur of the moment (that's the beauty of the game imho). Add to this the unforeseen situations that you couldn't have planned for, the fact that most Tactic Cards and ordering a plane are mutually exclusive and that a plane ordered means one less ground unit ordered. Not to mention that strafing will quite often put your plane adjacent to enemy units or exposed to being surrounded and forced to a stiff air check and a possible medal for your opponent. As for depleted units being held back, if the enemy sees an opening for the final medal(s) because you're too busy depleting units instead of eliminating them, he may well throw in a game-ending move those very depleted units - and then it's all a matter of lucky rolls. But perhaps in the end it all comes down to different playstyles.
That being said, all your points are valid and I'll keep them in mind, so many thanks for sharing them.

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 07:17

Don't underestimate the strength of the Planes! Smile

Seems to me the game itself underestimates them: seldom used, don't pack much of a punch (only one active offensive action), impending rather than enhancing ground orders (this one actually goes against the combined arms concept, the very essence of Blitzkrieg).

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 07:17

I'm talking about Air Strikes and Blitz rules. But depending on which theater you're playing, and what time period, you might want to modify the Blitz rules to apply for the other side, since they are normally only for the Germans. Of course we're talking about House rules here.

Of course we are Cool .
As they are now, Blitz rules are a penalty applied to the enemy, not a quality of the Germans. I would try something like a Gung ho! doctrine for German armor, so as to simulate communications/coordination between German tank crews. And something must be done about Stuka dive bombers opening the way for ground assaults, I'm really surprised that it was so easily ignored Shocked .
Has no one tackled yet a North African campaign or how should Air Rules apply to that specific theater?

[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2013 10:55]

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Fri, 15 November 2013 16:35
Rork wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 11:37

I presume that the same house rules apply to North African scenarios, right?
Still not clear about whether 2d also applies to strafing (according to the scenario date, of course).


Yes I do apply them to North Afica. I tend not to use the official Air rules so in my case the 2d rule does not apply to strafing.
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Fri, 15 November 2013 17:04
Rork wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 13:53


As they are now, Blitz rules are a penalty applied to the enemy, not a quality of the Germans.


You're only looking at half the rule...the part that limits Allied Armor movement. The other part, and the one I'm talking about, is the Axis ability to use Recon 1 cards as Air Strikes (or as Air Sortie cards). This is the part that simulates Air Superiority.

Quote:

I would try something like a Gung ho! doctrine for German armor, so as to simulate communications/coordination between German tank crews.


Sure, that could work!

Quote:

And something must be done about Stuka dive bombers opening the way for ground assaults, I'm really surprised that it was so easily ignored Shocked.


This was talked about, I believe, soon after the Air Pack came out. The consensus, if I remember right, was that Bombers of any kind would be doing their attacks before the ground battle starts. So by the time we enter the battle troops have been softened up...and that's reflected by the troop deployment at setup.

But if you want to create Stuka rules and start using them, go for it.
      
Rork
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Fri, 15 November 2013 21:21
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 18:04

You're only looking at half the rule...the part that limits Allied Armor movement. The other part, and the one I'm talking about, is the Axis ability to use Recon 1 cards as Air Strikes (or as Air Sortie cards). This is the part that simulates Air Superiority.

True, but I was refering to armor coordination and planes working together with tanks. None of these are reflected in the actual rules. Playing Recon 1 as the Blitz rules are now means not moving any ground unit: pretty far from coordinated arms, wouldn't you say so?

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 18:04

The consensus, if I remember right, was that Bombers of any kind would be doing their attacks before the ground battle starts. So by the time we enter the battle troops have been softened up...and that's reflected by the troop deployment at setup.

Mhm, then those Stukas sure didn't do such a hot job Very Happy .
This sounds more like a not-so-elegant excuse for pumping up Allies Twisted Evil . Don't get me wrong, the Air Pack is worth every penny, but really, three American planes and Fieseler Storch?!? Come on, seriously...

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 18:04

But if you want to create Stuka rules and start using them, go for it.

I'd gladly pay for a deluxe Battle Pack with a Stuka miniature and a Tempest/Mosquito/Typhoon one, with specific rules and cards, but I don't think this is exactly a priority for DoW. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 16 November 2013 00:21
Well actually I think Air Pack is not really worth very much. As expansions go, its probably the least popular, mainly because the air rules really just don't work that well with M44.

I think its a mistake to over think these rules (any of them) and try to model everything. But it looks like that's not going to stop you. More power to you developing your own house rules.

There IS armor and air coordination, built into the sequence of how you play your cards. Further, if you use air rules, you order your plane with your other units simultaneously. That is, coordination is up to you.

The other aspect of implementing air superiority in scenarios is contained in the special rules where it says something like "Axis gets both Air Sortie cards" or one side gets a plane on the ground etc.

While the air card says "strafe" it could very well be targeted bombing. Again M44 is very very abstract and to read any great detail into the rules is a mistake. I could go on and on about the implementation of tank destroyers, supply trucks, half-tracks etc., all which were questionable implementations in my opinion, and the power of basic arty and other basic rules but its not worth it. The game is fun because it is abstract (and amenable to subtle tweaking). Each scenario can override any rules, tweaking ranges, die rolls etc., and that's not uncommon with user-defined scenarios (and that's where a lot of these later rules have come from to be honest).
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 16 November 2013 13:54
Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 01:21

Well actually I think Air Pack is not really worth very much. As expansions go, its probably the least popular, mainly because the air rules really just don't work that well with M44.

Didn't say a thing about its popularity or gameplay value (I personally think the best expansion was Pacific Theater), just that for what it offers it's a definite buy. Compare to the Equipment Pack (the only extra M44 that I don't own and have no intention whatsoever to purchase) and you'll see what I mean.

Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 01:21

I think its a mistake to over think these rules (any of them) and try to model everything. But it looks like that's not going to stop you. More power to you developing your own house rules.

Yup, once I'm done with the CBs, I'll definitely have some fun re-playing/building a campaign with house rules, maybe also try to devise a system that allows the players to keep a core army throughout a Grand Campaign. We've tried some house rules every now and then and I daresay it added something to the game without altering balance, simplicity or feel.

Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 01:21

There IS armor and air coordination, built into the sequence of how you play your cards. Further, if you use air rules, you order your plane with your other units simultaneously.

Sequence of playing cards = different turns, no air/ground coordination imho.
Order plane and ground units simultaneously = one less order for the ground units, so usually weaker and less efficient move (unless you're dealing with few and/or depleted enemy units or you get lucky enough to play an order all card). There is some coordination here though, I'll grant you that, but my point is that it could be so much more.

Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 01:21

The other aspect of implementing air superiority in scenarios is contained in the special rules where it says something like "Axis gets both Air Sortie cards" or one side gets a plane on the ground etc.

Air superiority is rather well (imho) implemented, with or without Air Rules, tweaked or not, but that's rather besides the point since we were discussing air/ground coordination.

Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 01:21

While the air card says "strafe" it could very well be targeted bombing. Again M44 is very very abstract and to read any great detail into the rules is a mistake. I could go on and on about the implementation of tank destroyers, supply trucks, half-tracks etc., all which were questionable implementations in my opinion, and the power of basic arty and other basic rules but its not worth it. The game is fun because it is abstract (and amenable to subtle tweaking). Each scenario can override any rules, tweaking ranges, die rolls etc., and that's not uncommon with user-defined scenarios (and that's where a lot of these later rules have come from to be honest).


I agree with you 100%, with the mention that adding some detail in some cases is okay as long as it doesn't destroy basic gameplay or overcomplicates it. If and once we're done with with a workable scenario/campaign/house rule system or whatever, it would be great if you'd agree to try it. An entirely opposed point of view to customization would be perfect for rooting out errors Wink .
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 16 November 2013 15:47
Rork wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 16:54


Sgt Storm wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 01:21

There IS armor and air coordination, built into the sequence of how you play your cards. Further, if you use air rules, you order your plane with your other units simultaneously.

Sequence of playing cards = different turns, no air/ground coordination imho.
Order plane and ground units simultaneously = one less order for the ground units, so usually weaker and less efficient move (unless you're dealing with few and/or depleted enemy units or you get lucky enough to play an order all card). There is some coordination here though, I'll grant you that, but my point is that it could be so much more.


It's true, the coordination could be a lot more between Air and ground forces...but your point comes back to a general complaint that I've heard from players in the past:

"In Memoir '44 you don't get to order enough units. It's too limited."

Personally, I think the hard choices is part of the excitement and appeal of the game! I like the fact that players can't do everything they want to on their turn. Add in the Airplanes from the Air Pack rules and it makes it that much more interesting because now you might have to pick between responding to an attack on your Left Flank or continuing your plans (with your plane and other units) on the Right Flank! Too often people respond to the immediate threat instead of sticking with their own plans...but that's a different discussion! Cool

Like I said, I think the tough choices are part of the fun in Memoir '44, but that might just be me. Very Happy
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 16 November 2013 16:58
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 09:47


Like I said, I think the tough choices are part of the fun in Memoir '44, but that might just be me. Very Happy


NOPE!
I agree so me too.
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 16 November 2013 20:42
I agree with Rasmussen81, we now have the Kubelwagen, which allows one more choice on a section card, or Marine Rules, which do the same, plus the Breakthrough Deck, which allows a larger number of units to be ordered. This all adds to the fun. Having to pick from all the units which units to move is part of the fun. Besides, in most of the games I played at a convention last weekend that use different rules, you have to roll an morale check on every unit to see if it has high enough morale to shake off the effects of being pinned down, or losing a couple of figures, or being spotted, or to see if your tank is going to start, or be able to move or whatever. So you still don't get to move every unit. I played in a WWI game where our French tank was practically worthless. We had to roll an eight or above each turn on two six sided dice to see if the dang thing would move. I've included a pic:
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg214/ronh51/Command%20Con%2013/1109075802_zps1d4129f2.jpg

The red markers are dead guys, the white markers are pin markers.
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 16 November 2013 20:50
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 16 November 2013 16:47

It's true, the coordination could be a lot more between Air and ground forces...but your point comes back to a general complaint that I've heard from players in the past:
"In Memoir '44 you don't get to order enough units. It's too limited."

1. I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out facts and hoping to discuss them.
2. It's not about ordering more units, it's about what you can do on a given turn while maintaining some sort of connection (however tenous) to historical verisimilitude.
3. Even for a very remotely Blitz... no, make that WWII conflict (platoon-level?) simulation (I use that word in the loosest possible way), M44 has some.. shall we say clunky mechanics, chief among imho them being the use of combined arms, arty being more resilient than armor and armor suffering no penalties from being cloe assaulted in towns or forests.

However, this has turned into an argument probably best suited for another thread, so I suggest we stick to the Air Rules here. Anyway, I got my answers, so thanks again for all the opinions shared here.
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 07 December 2013 16:18
Breakout at Sedan scenario
Stuka siren: Each loss due to an Air Power card or a Strafing Action also counts as a flag that may not be ignored. Loss = hit, right?
If playing with early war/late war Air Power house rule, this specific rule should be ignored, as it totally breaks balance: under the right conditions, Allied player can lose up to three full-strength units with a single strafing action!
However, the rule itself is interesting because:
a) it modifies dice rolls instead of adding more rolls
b) it models somewhat the effect Stukas had in the early days of the Blitz.
Maybe it could be used for all '39-41 grand campaigns - just a thought.

If an airplane fails a forced air check and the enemy gets it as a medal, can the same plane back be ordered back to action in a later turn? In other words, I'm assuming the plane is a generic medal, not a specific type of plane, correct?

[Updated on: Sat, 07 December 2013 21:56]

      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sat, 07 December 2013 17:31
Rork wrote on Sat, 07 December 2013 19:18



If an airplane fails a forced air check and the enemy gets it as a medal, can the same plane back be ordered back to action in a later turn? In other words, I'm assuming the plane is a generic medal, not a specific type of plane, correct?


Correct...if you want to bring that plane back onto the battle field, just give your opponent a stand-in medal.

[Updated on: Sat, 07 December 2013 17:31]

      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sun, 08 December 2013 10:47
[quote title=rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 00:17][quote title=Rork wrote on Fri, 15 November 2013 01:23]
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 14 November 2013 17:17

And no, the Strafing will never be with 2 dice unless you use your own rules. But I strongly recommend you not make Strafing so strong for the reasons below!


Not entirely true. With a TFH order a plane would strafe with 2d per attack.
      
Rork
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sun, 08 December 2013 10:56
Just thought to check another thing I usually took for granted.
If you play an Assault card on a section with an airplane in it, it means you order ALL ground units + the airplane in said section, not ALL - 1 ground units, correct?
      
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Re:Air Power in Equipment Pack Sun, 08 December 2013 16:30
Rork wrote on Sun, 08 December 2013 13:56

Just thought to check another thing I usually took for granted.
If you play an Assault card on a section with an airplane in it, it means you order ALL ground units + the airplane in said section, not ALL - 1 ground units, correct?


Correct...all units and the plane. That's a great card when you have a plane in the air, or want to bring one on the board! Cool
      
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