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reapersaurus
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$50? Wed, 31 January 2007 20:20
From the look of the pictures, Colosseum is simply a board, and counters (with admittedly good art and quality).

Why would it be $50, when Cleopatra (with all those beautiful bits in addition to the high-quality art, tokens, and cards, etc) is $50?
Battlelore is "only" $70 and it has a boatload of bits.

What do you guys think of Colloseum's pricing structure?
Are other DoW games inherently underpriced for the market?
Are they trying to increase their profit-per-unit with Colloseum?

Thanks for (hopefully) a reasonable, critical discussion about industry (specifically DoW) pricing.
      
céro
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Re:$50? Wed, 31 January 2007 21:02
To me, DoW always had rather high prices (I own nearly all of their big games) - this is not bad thing per se, and in Europe (same amount but in ¤ instead of $) you'll even pay more....

Well, I suppose they'd say, that
- no one has to buy their games - there are lots of other games of other companies you may buy games from instead
- that their games are simply worth those prices

You only can maintain this kind of pricing policy not only if you are persuaded, that your games are great, you still have to sell them - obviously DoW is selling lot's of games...

may be it's a matter of making a hype of every new game coming out (DoW handles this very good..)
may be it's just because people like these games so much that they are willing to pay the price for - that's what happens to me all the time Smile
      
JHawkerJohn
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Re:$50? Thu, 01 February 2007 19:24
This doesn't seem out of line to me, with respect to the price of other similar "big box" games. It seems like for the past couple of years, $50 has been the going rate from most publishers.

It also looks like there are a lot of counters and bits in the game. Maybe not to the extent of Cleopatra, but enough to where I'm comfortable with the $50 price tag.

Days of Wonder has done a marvellous job with the production of past games. They're consistently the best, in my book. And Kramer is one of my all-time favorite designers. I hope the marriage of these two will result in a real classic that I'll be playing for years to come. If that's the case, it will be $50 well spent!
      
DBasi
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Re:$50? Fri, 02 February 2007 01:12
I can not say enough good things about DoW.
I have several of the games and have been very pleased with the quality and game play.
More importantly the way DoW handles their customer service is undoubtly the best in the field. I recently purchased BattleLore and the dice were not the best. DoW admitted the quality was shoty and then replaced the dice at no charge to the customer. I do not know many other companies that would admit the mistake and then replace the dice at no cost to the customer.
Every game I own has exceptional quality and the price tags on the games are reasonable. If the prices were cheaper then the quality would suffer and the playability of the games would dwindle. I have been palying Memoir'44 for a long time and the pieces are still in high quality fashion.
Keep uo the good work DoW and you will have many more years at the top.

Eric
      
egarvue
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Re:$50? Fri, 02 February 2007 02:12
I suppose it goes back to that same old argument we see on threads like this, about entertainment worth. It costs me $50 just to take my family of five to an evening movie; $50 buys me a new computer or PS2 game; $50 to take my wife out for a nice meal; $50 for a season of a TV show on DVD; etc., etc. $50 for game isn't out of line for my entertainment spending. It would be out of line if history hadn't shown me that Days of Wonder consistently puts out excellent games. I gladly plunked my $75 down for Battlelore, I've got over $100 invested in Memoir '44. I'll be pre-ordering this game as well. I know it seems a little steep at first, until I start comparing it to my other forms of leisure.

I don't about their pricing structure; but I do know that they're growing a successful business where many other game companies have failed. If their per-unit-profit margin is higher, more power to 'em. May their company rake in obscene profits and continue to put out great games for my enjoyment for many years to come.

[Updated on: Fri, 02 February 2007 02:13]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:$50? Fri, 02 February 2007 03:38
egarvue wrote on Thu, 01 February 2007 19:12

$50 to take my wife out for a nice meal;

That's the point. No one is arguing about paying $50 for a nice meal (i.e. Memoir 44, Cleopatra, Shadows). But if you went to McDonald's and paid $50, you would feel jipped.

Now, I am a fan of DOW and don't want to compare their game to junk food! But the bang for your buck on the other $50 games *seems* more potent than what you get in this game.

But $50 is just a starting point. I am sure it will be around $35 online and that seems more acceptable. Not quite the masses banging down the doors this time like for BattleLore right before Christmas. So I really see little need to pre-order at this point.
      
eric
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Re:$50? Fri, 02 February 2007 05:55
I wouldn't rush to judge "what's in this game" until I opened the box, either. Rolling Eyes Very Happy
eric
      
céro
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Re:$50? Fri, 02 February 2007 11:13
Lions.....?
and surtely the sunshades from the prototype on BGN Cool

[Updated on: Fri, 02 February 2007 11:39]

      
Sarge77
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Re:$50? Sun, 04 February 2007 03:55
http://static.colosseumgame.com/lang/english/images/co_photo1.jpg

I think $50 will be a bargain for this game. Razz
      
Yves Van Herp
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Re:$50? Sun, 04 February 2007 12:15
I completely agree with some of my fellow gamers above!!! $50 isn't too much at all. It seems quite a nice game and you can't argue those things before you know what's in the box. I own all DOW games (except some of the card games) and they have never disappointed me so far. They won't for sure do that with Colosseum either. I'm sure gonna pre-order this game ASAP!

Razz

[Updated on: Sun, 04 February 2007 12:15]

      
Passenger57
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Re:$50? Mon, 05 February 2007 09:43
$50? Where do you folks shop? I can't even remember the last time I've payed full retail price for a game. That's what online stores like Thoughthammer are for, you know. Wink

As for the game, it looks and sounds good. Looking forward to more information.
      
Ryan43
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Re:$50? Mon, 05 February 2007 09:49
egarvue wrote on Thu, 01 February 2007 20:12

I don't about their pricing structure; but I do know that they're growing a successful business where many other game companies have failed. If their per-unit-profit margin is higher, more power to 'em. May their company rake in obscene profits and continue to put out great games for my enjoyment for many years to come.


That is a well-said statement. (above)

$49.95 retail is in line with all their other games. Assuming you (the consumer) want the great customer service, excellent artwork, great games etc.... that is all part of the cost of doing business. The set retail price is fair. Until we see a full review of the game, all I can say is it looks very promising. It looks like the focus is on game artwork graphics and perceived ease of play again....and not so much the overdone toy factor of Cleopatra.

If the gameplay holds up to DOW standards (which I can't imagine why it would not), then you should have a winner here. We'll all know soon enough.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 February 2007 09:49]

      
Kenntak
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Re:$50? Tue, 06 February 2007 17:16
To put this in perspective, the authors state in their interview that two publishers declined to publish the game because of the high production costs involved. This helps explain the current list price for the game.
      
reapersaurus
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Re:$50? Sat, 10 February 2007 22:15
eric wrote on Thu, 01 February 2007 20:55

I wouldn't rush to judge "what's in this game" until I opened the box, either. Rolling Eyes Very Happy
eric
This is very interesting.....

Can you confirm that there may be more in the game box than is pictured here? :
[img]http://static.colosseumgame.com/lang/english/images/co_photo 1.jpg[/img]

If so, that's very promising that there may be more than just cardboard counters to justify the $50 pricetag.

I agree with many DoW fans, that their support is unquestionably among the best in the industry, and their product quality is, as well. (It's great to hear from Eric and other reps and designers here, and I'd love to hear detailed responses about the following observation:)

In a simple comparison of (unconfirmed) final box contents, Cleopatra selling for the same price as Colosseum shows IMO much less bang-for-the-buck with the Colosseum game:

[img]http://static.cleopatragame.com/lang/english/images/cl_photo 1.jpg[/img]
      
eric
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Re:$50? Sat, 10 February 2007 23:25
No, what you see in this picture is what you'll get. But...
1. impressions can be misleading (ie there are far more than "a few" punchboards);
2. we're not interested in selling games by the pound.
So let's just say that we're confident the game will stand on its own, along with our other big box titles (Mystery, Pirate's Cove, Memoir '44, etc..).
eric
      
OGRE40
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Re:$50? Mon, 05 March 2007 08:12
I would much rather pay a price on a product that keeps a good company comfortably in the "black" than save a few bucks and put the company in a position where they can't meet payroll or overhead.

As long as the basic ambiance needs are attended to, I don't really care about the correlation between the costs of a game's "material" components and its retail price. You are not just paying for components, but are also paying for all the effort that went into designing and development. And ultimately, you are paying for the games entertainment value. Hence, a game's "worth" should be measured by how much enjoyment and entertainment it provides, not by how much profit it's making the company producing it. I will spend more to take my family to the movies than I will spend on some of DOW's games, and when I leave the theater I don't have any components at all!!!

I enjoy DOW games. I want to enjoy more of them. So I hope DOW is making lots of money, so they stay in business a long time, providing lots of enjoyable products.
      
céro
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Re:$50? Mon, 05 March 2007 13:13
Amen Cool
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:$50? Tue, 06 March 2007 07:10
I disagree...

There is a fixed cost of development as well; one that can be amortized, or can be assessed as a fixed rate per issuance, or by some combination.

One has costs of production, and costs of development, and costs of staying in business... if the costs of production are lower, I would expect a lower price.

If the game is F'ing Awesome, well, a higher royalty to the designer is in order... but that is hard to tell if it's worth it, at least without playing.

The bits quality appears a bit low for the price. If the game is truly awesome, fine. If not, well, I'll be able to pick up a copy for $25 on clearance...
      
céro
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Re:$50? Fri, 09 March 2007 21:22
That's exactly what I meant with AMEN
There's no obligation to purchase any game at any price
You will only buy those games you really expect to have fun with
If you think the fun you're going to have is worth 50 bucks, then you will pay 'em
if not, then just buy any other games or none

DoW is not the Salvation Army - they have to make good money - hey it's business

So if I do I will not buy Colosseum because it's a game published by DoW, but because I think it is good and I want it. If DoW makes (even a lot, let's say tons) of Money on this one and continues to publish games I like, then this is ok to me. Its by far the better way than to sell games at a price that is not sufficient to keep a publisher in business.
With DoW Games you have always the possibility to know what you're going to buy (Online Infos, BGG, may be a game in a FLGS, etc), so the deal seems fair to me!
And just like you, If I see 2 prices for a game, I'll probably take the cheaper one, I'm not the Salvation Army either.
      
Wee Sodjer
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Re:$50? Sun, 18 March 2007 15:31
eric wrote on Sat, 10 February 2007 22:25

No, what you see in this picture is what you'll get. But...
1. impressions can be misleading (ie there are far more than "a few" punchboards);
2. we're not interested in selling games by the pound.
So let's just say that we're confident the game will stand on its own, along with our other big box titles (Mystery, Pirate's Cove, Memoir '44, etc..).
eric



Amen

You have just summed up why I support DoW
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:$50? Mon, 19 March 2007 01:51
To each his own. I am assuming that DOW gets the same - or very similar cuts whether we buy at the $50 in an FLGS or $35 at an online store. They just make some extra cash if they sell it directly for MSRP. And I am suure the extra cash is more of a convenience fee for them offering the direct sale instead of keeping their company afloat.

So I would say the important thing is to buy the game wherever you please at whatevert cost. It will support DOW no matter what and allow them to bring us more games.
      
RichardD
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Re:$50? Thu, 29 March 2007 16:16
I can't remember the last time that I punched so much cardboard - probably Descent. There were 7 sheets, I think, of various counters and bits. We were playing at our normal games table, and it wasn't big enough because of the huge number of tokens ad tiles.

Plus those pawns you see in the pictures are hefty pieces of resin, when DoW could have gone with plain pawns.

My *only* disappointment was with the dice. Just who had the bright idea to use a white-coloured wood, then print the symbols on the faces in white?? We frequently found it very hard to read the dice. Slapped wrists to the production designer there, I'm afraid.
      
player21912
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Re:$50? Mon, 28 May 2007 17:39
As Mayfair has also found, there's a couple different markets in boardgames.

Some people are willing to buy a game sight unseen, based only on a picture they see over the internet, with no customer service at all. This group is also very good at using the internet to search for the low prices through sites like
http://www.boardgameprices.com/

But this isn't a very large group. Most people need to see an opened box, handle the components, and most importantly, be taught the game in person by sales staff because they will never, ever open a rulebook, ever.

This higher level of customer service costs more. DoW has to price for this group --which is where the majority of sales come from.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/talkback/10624.html

But the real kicker is between Colosseoum and Cleopatria, they've got two themed titles they can now product place in every museum store in the world. I have no idea why shops attached to museums are so successful at moving higher prices items, but every one I've walked into is elbow-to-ear with shopping customers paying the most jaw droppingly high prices for something, anything they can carry away.

DOW is on the *low* pricing end for museum shops, and the high printing quality of their products should do well there. Museum shops are starving for actually fun games as opposed to the usual crap monopoly variants they stock. I hope DOW does huge sales there and introduces an entirely new highbrow audience to quality boardgames.

But don't expect these new customers to come to the internet much. If ever.
      
superfats1
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Re:$50? Wed, 13 June 2007 17:40
I'm surprised there hasn't been more response from actual owners of the game.

We own ever DOW game produced, and Colosseum has just as good perceived "value" as any other game. You build the game according to it's needs. You don't make a ship's wheel that everyone slams down on the table for Colosseum just to have a catchy, produced object. It seems all the objects in DOW games that have the value (Pirate's Cove's wheels, Cleopatra's building pieces, Battle Lore's miniatures) were necessary to the mechanics of the game.

Colosseum didn't need that. It's fun just the way it is.
      
Caboose
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Re:$50? Thu, 14 June 2007 06:55
The only "complaint" I have with the game (and I bet a few of the owners will vouch) is that there is no nice room to put the black bag with the asset tokens in the bag to be placed back in the box.

The only way I could get everything back in the box was to use the spot for where the coins was suppose to go and use that spot for the asset tokens to make everything go back to where they belong.

The game is definitely worth it..sure it doesn't have a lot of "items" like Battlelore, but then it wasn't meant to either.

Cab
      
atefec
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Re:$50? Thu, 14 June 2007 07:49
Caboose schrieb am Thu, 14 June 2007 06:55

The only "complaint" I have with the game (and I bet a few of the owners will vouch) is that there is no nice room to put the black bag with the asset tokens in the bag to be placed back in the box.

The only way I could get everything back in the box was to use the spot for where the coins was suppose to go and use that spot for the asset tokens to make everything go back to where they belong.

I use to place the black bag with the asset tokens on the top of all, above game board and rules book. At least in the german box is enough space under the top.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:$50? Thu, 14 June 2007 07:57
I finally ordered a copy and it came in the mail today. I have to say I am impressed by the heft of the game. Though it is mostly all cardboard, it is high quality and and very detailed. I think the coins are tremendous coming in various sizes and having a heads and tails. The box, as always, is pretty well engineered.

I have to agree with Caboose that it could have been a little better designed. I find the box a bit tight with the orange asset tokens in the bag and thrown on top. It didn't work in Ra or Carcassonne either! I wish the slot for the "mid-size" events had a finger slot - and looks like there was room to accomodate that. But since all the emperor medals don't fit in there assigned slot, I put a few under the mid-size and use them as a lever to get the events out. My biggest complaint is the box finish! Why they went with a high gloss finish instead of he typical linen that all my other DOW games has confounds me. The glossiness sticks together and it is the most difficult box to open of all my games. When we checked out the demo copy at the FLGS the other day, it took two of us yanking cartoon-tug-of-war style to get the darned thing opened!

But overall, this looks to be another superb DOW game. I could sit around and just stare at the pieces and enjoy that as much as the game. Too bad I am camping this weekend - it will probably be a week before I can get my first game in.
      
Warpstorm
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Re:$50? Thu, 14 June 2007 14:02
I have to agree with ColtsFan7, my biggest gripe is the box finish. I always thought that people who complained that a box was hard to open on The Geek were just being whiners, but this game is actually very hard to open sometimes.

Very good gameplay though, and that's what we are paying for.
      
keltheos
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Re:$50? Thu, 14 June 2007 22:49
I like the fact that it's a tight fit. I transport it to and from the game store and sometimes store my boardgames on their sides. It's nice to know that the tight fit of the contents and lid will help prevent spillage.
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:$50? Sun, 17 June 2007 11:00
I got it as an "early" Father's Day gift, yesterday. We played last night.

The box is a tight fit. I suspect I'll be pulling the insert and using lots of 3x4" zipper bags.

Worth $50? I think so.

My 7YO played, as did my wife, and one of my colorblind friends. (He couldn't tell the blue and purple apart.)

Final Score: 59, 56.82, 56.52, 46

3 hours + a dinner break.
      
T-Boy67
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Re:$50? Thu, 11 October 2007 00:21
Come to England and pay £35, which is currently about $70, then ask yourself if $50 is expensive.
      
Websteria
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Re:$50? Thu, 10 January 2008 01:58
Dude, this game Makes CC:E look easy to punch, the punching is very clean, the dies are nice and the art is AMAZING. The games plays out in a very beautiful manner and it's quite unique in the strategy.

$50 is very much a good price for this due to the sheer number of bits within and how well they ALL fit the theme. Look at all the other games out there. $50 is not unreasonable. If it were a card game I could understand, but until you see what you get in the box of goodness you won't understand.
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:$50? Fri, 11 January 2008 08:04
Having recently purchased the new edition of Talisman (why did I ever let go of my 2nd ed with ALL the goodies??? Oh, yeah, paying rent...), it has FAR fewer bits (two sheets, smaller than box floor), and 5 decks of cards, and a board, and plastic markers for stats...

Compared to Colosseum (what was it, 9 ? full-box-floor sized sheets of counters), plus 3 sculpts for 6 figures, plus a board, plus a bits bag... And far less dead space in the box.

And the same price. Just as replayable, and just as fun, too.

So the price isn't outrageous. It is comparable to other games in similar sized boxes.

Oh, and versus the photo above, that doesn't show the whole of the resource chits, only about 15% of them... (the little square ones). And the same for the Medals. And the coins. There are LOADS of coins.

And, just for reference, I use a $1 per player per hour of play to figure out when a game has paid for itself. Colosseum paid off in just over two months. Talisman is a third of the way after 4 months.

[Updated on: Fri, 11 January 2008 08:06]

      
Websteria
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Re:$50? Fri, 11 January 2008 17:42
I think this weekend I'll get all the bits for Coloseum out and take a pic (I could use some geekgold anyway) so you can see the massive amounts of bits you get with this game. It's WELL worth it, and all the bits are useful, plus DOW gives you a case that (OMG) they all fit inside of (see Arkham horror, CC:E for examples of badly designed insert cases).

Thank you DOW for making such a great game that FITS IN THE BOX!!!!

      
    
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