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player135855
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August 2005
maybe to powerful Mon, 30 July 2007 05:48
i just lost 17 men in the first round of combat because my foe played hills rumble first turn. she has a second level cleric and took the extra lore specialist card. 7 lore to start the game. played hills rumble. i lost about a third of my army. this is the second time this has happened, in a row. anyone else face this problem. seems like chain lightning should be a lot cheaper since this card is so deadly. Evil or Very Mad
      
sdafilli
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 30 July 2007 08:47
Some wars are just not meant to be won... and neither are they always meant to be fair..... Wink

Just play again... pick a different scenario... and more importantly have fun (it's only a game) Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 30 July 2007 08:48]

      
yangtze
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 30 July 2007 12:24
Some kind of terraform spell for a later expansion that allows you to modify terrain would be cool. So you might remove some hills in your line of advance as a possible counter to spells like Hils Rumble.
      
toddrew
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 30 July 2007 14:51
player135855 wrote on Sun, 29 July 2007 20:48

anyone else face this problem


Nope, never came up before Razz

Very Happy
Here's a few of the threads about this, pretty sure there are a few more as well:

Hills Rumble and Forest Frenzy

Problems with Hills Rumble, Forest Frenzy

Hills Rumble / Forest Frenzy broken or not?

A few (hundred? Laughing ) games since my last post on this subject and I am still of the same opinion: Powerful cards, but I'd rather have portal and/or greater portal (any time I'm putting my fate in the hands of the dice, well... Wink ). The effectiveness of cards like HR, FF, Creeping Doom, Chain Lightning, Fireball, and even, on occasion Wink , River Rage are obvious from the get go, after playing just one game. After a few plays one will start to know when to expect those cards and be able to play in anticipation of those cards being played. Of course, the obvious defense to these is holding a dispel or foiled! card, but other measures can be taken to mitigate the damages. And, as sdafilli pointed out, sometimes one is just going to have to take it Laughing Bad things happen in this game from time to time Wink

For your particular case, just extrapolating here, if 17 figures were taken down, averages dictate that about 12 units were affected if it was an average roll - but I'd imagine that it was likely an above average roll. Anyway, either a bunch of elevated terrain on your side of the board, or happened to be lots of units concentrated about those hills. Playing CtA one does have some level of control over the unit placement, so if one expects that an opponent will be taking a higher level cleric and prayer, adjustments can be made using both deployment and specialists cards. (Also, it appears prayer wasn't being played correctly: with a L2 cleric, should have only started the game out with probably 4 lore, 5 at the most as the prayer card states 2 lore for every level above 1, and it would be rare that a player would begin the game with a level 2 cleric and another lore master of level 3 - rare, but not impossible Wink .) Anyway, that's the cat and mouse type stuff I enjoy with CtA. Sometimes one guesses right, sometimes wrong - usually best to set up for the best offensive blow one can make early and not trouble too much about the opponent.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 30 July 2007 15:23
toddrew, I think your calcs are off. With a Level 3 Cleric, a player will start off with 3 Lore Tokens. Prayer gives him 2 Lore per Level above 1. That's 4 more Lore (3-1 = 2x2 = 4). That is the only way to start the game with 7 lore in hand and be able to play HR right off the bat. That would also give 4 dice per attack. (Unless I missed it, I don't see where anyone mentioned a Level 2 cleric being selected).

If I am in a heavily elevated area and my opponent just went for the Level 3 Cleric, I am taking Prayer whether I need it or not to deny him this very option. Then again, I probably wouldn't play the lucky son of a gun that can manage to get all those cards and roll that well in a game, let alone twice.
      
toddrew
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 31 July 2007 02:39
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 30 July 2007 06:23

toddrew, I think your calcs are off. With a Level 3 Cleric, a player will start off with 3 Lore Tokens. Prayer gives him 2 Lore per Level above 1. That's 4 more Lore (3-1 = 2x2 = 4). That is the only way to start the game with 7 lore in hand and be able to play HR right off the bat. That would also give 4 dice per attack. (Unless I missed it, I don't see where anyone mentioned a Level 2 cleric being selected).


Reread the second sentence of the OP Wink Though, with it saying that the opponent began the game with 7 lore using prayer, I'm thinking he meant Level 3 cleric - especially when taking out 17 figures.

Quote:

If I am in a heavily elevated area and my opponent just went for the Level 3 Cleric, I am taking Prayer whether I need it or not to deny him this very option. Then again, I probably wouldn't play the lucky son of a gun that can manage to get all those cards and roll that well in a game, let alone twice.


I've yet to play a CtA game using the physical game, so so far pre-emptive taking of a specialist card has no effect, as on Vassal each player has access to the full CtA cards. But, yeah, if that board is rife with terrain, I'd be tempted Very Happy O, and I think the OP was talking about two separate, but consecutive, games. Expressing some familiar to these boards discontent Smile
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 31 July 2007 03:46
you are right. i read over that many times and kept missing it. Yes, if a Level 2 Cleric was used, then something went wrong. Prayer would only have gotten you 2 extra Lore.

If it were two different opponents that managed to wreak that much havoc, then he is one unlucky son of a gun. Go buy a lotto ticket because your luck is bound to change!
      
player135855
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 31 July 2007 07:31
it was two consecutive games. both times my GIRLFRIEND whipped out either hills rumble or forest frenzy and wipped me out. we were playing on the Back to Poitiers map the second time and the first time i think i was playing the forboding forests. either way. i agree with all of the advice that you all have given. yes...i should take the extra lore card to prevent it. yes i should try to get away from both hills and forests, though this is still really hard to do. still. i feel like it should cost a lot more to cast such potentially devestating spells. chain lightning stops after a miss, maybe a limit on the number of hexes effected would help. i dunno. thanks for the reply gang. and yea... i am lucky my girl plays and whooops my kiester.
      
dbc-
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 31 July 2007 08:25
player135855 wrote on Tue, 31 July 2007 07:31

i feel like it should cost a lot more to cast such potentially devestating spells. chain lightning stops after a miss, maybe a limit on the number of hexes effected would help.

I have had the same problems you describe, although it is often me who does the damage. But it doesn't make it any better, as it still ruins the excitement of the game.
I have started using the "official" un-official rule nerfing the damage done to 2d, no matter the level of the Cleric. This has really helped a lot and I have not experienced any big problems ever since. You can find it in the Lore Card Compendium.

I must say I don't like the suggestion of taking Prayer if ones opponent is taking a lv. 3 Cleric. That would only give my opponent the chance to play two useful cards while I´ll only get one. With the expansions coming out it would be even more damaging, with all those possibilities they bring.
As for the "just avoid elevated terrain" strategy, I will not start this discussion again...

The way I would have liked to see the card working, would be to let it run from one end of the field, towards the other. If it ever missed a hit, like Chain Lightning, it would dissipate. This way it would give less control but still have a high damage potential.
But you can't get everything...

But if you play on terrain heavy maps, try out the suggested rule. Then come back here and tell how it went.
      
badger89
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 31 July 2007 13:44
i dont think any card is too powerful. I have read a lot of people whinging cos they lost a game to thier girlfriend or someone who hasnt played the game before becuase they used the lore cards very well.
This can only encourage more people to play BL etc and is a good thing.
its not as if there are not cards that can be used to stop the powerful lore cards and if you lose a few figures then change your tactics for the battle.
Its as simple as that. Okay so maybe have house rules for yourself but thats that. Also have none of you thought to have a level 3 cleric yourself? So you can use another powerful card in response.
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 31 July 2007 14:52
badger89 wrote on Tue, 31 July 2007 07:44

Also have none of you thought to have a level 3 cleric yourself? So you can use another powerful card in response.


Yeah, just use an overpowered broken card before your opponent does and *poof* everything is okay. Shocked

Player 135855, your best bet is to house rule. While you may go for a few games where HR/FF aren't major factors, they will inevitably pop up and determine games for you at some point. I've had these cards be completely devastating in back-to-back games as well, which has always led our gaming group to put Battlelore back in the box and forget about it for a while.

So use house rules (there's a good house rule thread somewhere around here). Hopefully your group will be more agreeable to playing with them than my group, which will not use them as a general rule.
      
mvettemagred
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 31 July 2007 20:53
Hi!

I just had to post on every thread regarding this topic. I have nothing new to add, as this topic has been axed, slinged, cabered, speared, bagpiped and bass drummed to death already.

Maybe somebody will start a thread about their experiences with the new units.
      
toddrew
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 01 August 2007 00:55
badger89 wrote on Tue, 31 July 2007 04:44

Also have none of you thought to have a level 3 cleric yourself? So you can use another powerful card in response.


If one suspects that a player will take a Level 3 lore master, it is usually a good strategy to not take any levels of that lore master as it limits the number of lore cards available for that lore master - but, by all means, taking a L3 lore master that an opponent is also taking does make for an exciting game. When I'm thinking about it, I usually try to take a L2 or L3 lore master that I think the opponent will take one level in, like the rogue or warrior (or both Wink ).
      
badger89
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 01 August 2007 14:03
are you not supposed to set up your lore council in secret without the other player seeing what you have chosen?
Since its all powerful why doesnt everyone choose a level 3 cleric every time then?
Now there are many reasons for this that im not going into as we all know them.
But my basic point is that no card is too powerful. If you lose lots of units, cos someone else worked out that using a particular card is a good idea before you did then tough luck. just finish the game change sides and see if you get a chance to do it.
And once again there are cards that can counter these cards. So chosing a level 3 cleric may give you powerful cards but it doesnt give you "dispell" (i believe it is)to stop the card played a cheaply as you might like, as well as other lore cards that give you lots of extra dice when you get down to actual units battling each other.
      
dbc-
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 01 August 2007 15:50
badger89 wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 14:03

But my basic point is that no card is too powerful. If you lose lots of units, cos someone else worked out that using a particular card is a good idea before you did then tough luck. just finish the game change sides and see if you get a chance to do it.


You are missing the entire point!
It does not matter who plays the card. These cards have the potential to deal out so much damage, it is not fun for either player.

badger89 wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 14:03


And once again there are cards that can counter these cards. So chosing a level 3 cleric may give you powerful cards but it doesnt give you "dispell" (i believe it is)to stop the card played a cheaply as you might like, as well as other lore cards that give you lots of extra dice when you get down to actual units battling each other.



Since cards are dealt at random, your chances of getting Dispell or Foiled are just as good as your opponents.
      
sdafilli
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 01 August 2007 15:58
As is HR, RR, FF .... or any card for that matter. Gee lets ban every card that can potentially deal too much damage... let's ban playing with lore... Depending on the type of game one enjoys playing, BL will be for some and not for others
      
dbc-
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 01 August 2007 17:12
I used the word "potentially" intentionally. The discussion about HH, FF & RR has been very tiresome at points because people keep talking past each other. Some people seem to think, those of us who find these cards too powerful, claim they ruin every game. Since this is not true I have started emphasising "potentially". But if that is a problem, I'll stop doing so.

I play the game often and I like it a lot. My biggest gripe has been a handful of the Lore Cards. Actually I don't think I have any other complaints at all!
With the introduction of Epic and the marshes from CtA, the terrain-magic has been nerfed in a natural way. But I find the balance in the base game a problem.
I don't mind if my opponent wins the game by blasting a red unit with a fireball, or my secret battle-plan being foiled by some devious spell - I actually find it amusing. But HH and FF has simply ruined the fun for both me and my opponent, far too often. And that is why I voice my opinion!

This whole discussion could have been stopped a long time ago if we had had some optional replacement cards for the terrain magic. There are other heavy-hitters in the Lore Deck, but I find they are rarely complained about. I don't think we would see a big demand for other "replacements".

The problem with Lore Cards, compared to an event deck in some games, is that you cannot simply remove cards from the deck without changing the balance. Lore Cards are simply too integral a part of the system.
When I play with gamers who wants to play a game strictly by the rules, I have often neglected to tell if I have removed certain cards from a deck - nobody knows and everybody is happy.
I like the chaos Lore Cards can bring to BattleLore, but they are not as customizable as in other games.

I hope these ramblings has made my point more clear...
      
sdafilli
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 01 August 2007 17:29
No probs... and btw wasn't having a go at you (or anyone else for that matter)

Just meaning to say that it's this element of suspense, and uneasiness of the unknown that makes BL the great game that it is, for me. I don't mind being whacked by the occassional strong or game-winning play every now and then.... in fact if the game was too balanced, I personally think the game becomes too bland- just flip coin to see who wins... or just go play chess or something....
      
mvettemagred
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 03 August 2007 15:02
sdafilli wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 11:29

No probs... and btw wasn't having a go at you (or anyone else for that matter)

Just meaning to say that it's this element of suspense, and uneasiness of the unknown that makes BL the great game that it is, for me. I don't mind being whacked by the occassional strong or game-winning play every now and then.... in fact if the game was too balanced, I personally think the game becomes too bland- just flip coin to see who wins... or just go play chess or something....

Exactly. It's the variety of Lore effects and how they're applied to different game situations that keep me coming back. The infrequency of the big terrain spells actually make each occurance of them a neat thing to see, IMO. I love a challenge, so when my units get trimmed by HR/FF, it just makes me more determined to see what I can accomplish with my new, slimmer army. Smile

What frustrates me more is when I've engineered a key Command+Lore combo turn, only to have my opponent completely disrupt it with a simple Slow or Magic Web spell. For some reason, those plays really stick in my craw, and seem to sway more games than the terrain spells. It doesn't take much to sway the balance of power in a section, so don't overlook the cheap, simple spells as ways to gain the upper hand. Timing is critical for these types of spells, so I recommend playing LOTS Smile of games to learn when to pull the trigger on these types of spells.
      
stenic
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 06 August 2007 17:10
I had an nice unit, blue bannered Dwarves. Use Specialist to add another figure and then marched them off to the training camp to make them red banner. My opponent was delighted to fireball the entire unit halfway through the game. So of course I had no quarms about using Forest Frenzy when it came up Smile

Steve P
      
tkostek
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 07 August 2007 03:29
Potential House Rule

I don't have a problem w/ the cards as-written, but if I were going to use a house rule, I would modify the cards so that no unit could take more than 2 figures of damage. I would still let the attacker roll all the dice they are entitled to. This limits the max damage while still rewarding a high level cleric.

Not too powerful

Far from unbalanced, I find these cards to be brilliant.

They are flashy effects that tend to demoralize and frighten the whole army w/o actually killing many full strength units. Similarly, these cards tend to demoralize the player, not just the army.

The chance of killing a full strength unit is quite small, but lvl 3 cleric has a pretty decent shot of making them shake in their boots. However, they still attack at the same strength!

A lot of figures can be wiped out, but you can't put the damage where you want it. In my experience a good bit of the damage ends up in places that are irrelevant for the battle.

In conclusion, I think these cards are more "bark than bite", and I like them a lot.
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 07 August 2007 16:19
tkostek wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 21:29

Potential House Rule

I don't have a problem w/ the cards as-written, but if I were going to use a house rule, I would modify the cards so that no unit could take more than 2 figures of damage. I would still let the attacker roll all the dice they are entitled to. This limits the max damage while still rewarding a high level cleric.

Not too powerful

Far from unbalanced, I find these cards to be brilliant.

They are flashy effects that tend to demoralize and frighten the whole army w/o actually killing many full strength units. Similarly, these cards tend to demoralize the player, not just the army.

The chance of killing a full strength unit is quite small, but lvl 3 cleric has a pretty decent shot of making them shake in their boots. However, they still attack at the same strength!

A lot of figures can be wiped out, but you can't put the damage where you want it. In my experience a good bit of the damage ends up in places that are irrelevant for the battle.

In conclusion, I think these cards are more "bark than bite", and I like them a lot.


More bark than bite? That's really laughable. Killing 10-20 figs it more bite than anything else in the game, by a mile.

Not to mention your entire post is meaningless since most of the time HR/FF come out there are damaged units on the map. I've seen tons of banners captured with these cards. Heaps. Lots of monsters as well.

It's like you're suggesting that the cards are balanced because they only work against full-strength units. Sad
      
mvettemagred
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 07 August 2007 19:55
Cebalrai,

You need to download some more music -- you keep singing the same tune. Smile

What tkostek said is the damage is spread around the board, and may not be concentrated where it will affect the outcome of the game. I and others have may this point before, but it bears repeating.

You and your friends are so focused on figure kill count, you seem to look past the object of the game, which is to eliminate whole units. Unless you play Battlelore as a total elimination game, you should know by now that many units (sometimes whole sections) don't ever engage the enemy; thus they don't factor into the victory banner count.

My supposition -- Only a fraction of the figures killed by HR/FF actually factor in the outcome of the game. To illustrate, let's run some numbers:

Let's say the average figure kill count of HR/FF is 12. This assumes a L2 Cleric targeting 12 units, or a L3 Cleric targeting 9 units. Obviously some scenarios will target more units, some less. Sometimes you'll roll great, other times not. That's why this is a good average. Smile

If you spread those 12 figures across 3 board sections, you get 4 figures per section. On average, 2 figures will be in the front ranks (engaged with the enemy), 2 in the back.

Assuming most of the banners are being won in two sections (typical game, per my experience), that means only 4 figures were killed in units on the front lines in the two pertinent sections. Let me repeat -- 4 figures. This is the true impact of HR/FF. Even if you count all front-line figures in all 3 sections, that's 6 figures killed.

Depending on the situation, those 4-6 figures may still have a large impact; or they may not. What's important is comparing HR/FF to other Lore spells, when considering the impact on the portions of the board where there are realistic banners to be won/lost. Creeping Doom, Chain Lightning, etc. will eliminate 4+ figures, with the added benefit of targeting the specific units that are of most strategic importance to you. Fireball is even more focused, giving you a chance to eliminate one specific troublesome unit.

Now, before you say that ignoring the other 6-8 figures killed in units not engaged with the enemy invalidates my supposition, you have to admit you almost always have units that never see combat, or at best provide a support presence to other units. So what if these units lose a figure or two. In a typical Battlelore game, those lost figures will have nil affect on the outcome of the game. At the end of the game, who cares how many figures you've lost, as long as you've won more banners than you've lost.

I hope this analysis has provided you a fresh perspective on these spells and this game. It wasn't until I worked through the numbers that I could appreciate how balanced these spells really are w.r.t. affecting the outcome of the game. They may be big and flashy, but not necessarily more effective at eliminating units than other Lore spells.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 August 2007 19:59]

      
The New Romance
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 07 August 2007 21:16
Oh my god!!! Shocked The revenant ravaging rampage-cards have returned from their tomb! Lord, have mercy with our souls!

No, sorry, I was pretty interested in the HR/FF-issue when it first came up because I too have my concerns about those cards. I only can't really understand why this zombie thing keeps showing up and up again Wink
      
mvettemagred
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 07 August 2007 21:49
Undead are pesky beasts. Very Happy

I thought my numerical analysis of the distribution of figures killed by these spells was different enough to warrant posting. To save hard drive and screen space, what I should have said was:

- HR/FF spread a lot of damage potential across a lot of targets; some are strategically relevant, most not.

- The other direct damage dealing spells focus less damage potential on specific, strategically relevant targets.

In summary, as the damage potential goes up, the ability to control where the damage is applied goes down.

Each player can decide what is more likely to help eliminate units and thus help win the game.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 07 August 2007 22:26
The New Romance wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 14:16

Oh my god!!! Shocked The revenant ravaging rampage-cards have returned from their tomb! Lord, have mercy with our souls!

No, sorry, I was pretty interested in the HR/FF-issue when it first came up because I too have my concerns about those cards. I only can't really understand why this zombie thing keeps showing up and up again Wink

Did it ever really die?
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 03:56
mvettemagred wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 13:55

Cebalrai,

You need to download some more music -- you keep singing the same tune. Smile

What tkostek said is the damage is spread around the board. I and others have may this point before, but it bears repeating.


I get it now. The above points which you've made over and over (and over) "bear repeating" while mine do not.

Gotcha.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 August 2007 04:07]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 04:51
cebalrai wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 20:56

mvettemagred wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 13:55

Cebalrai,

You need to download some more music -- you keep singing the same tune. Smile

What tkostek said is the damage is spread around the board. I and others have may this point before, but it bears repeating.


I get it now. The above points which you've made over and over (and over) "bear repeating" while mine do not.

Gotcha.

ZING! One point for cebalrai!
      
tkostek
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 06:16
I don't read these forums all that much. I knew there was some controvery over these cards, but I didn't anticipate the level of bitterness I'm seeing here.

It's clear this topic has been debated extensively, and there are folks on both sides. I don't find the cards over powered from a practical standpoint or a statistical standpoint, but others disagree. That's cool.

Game on!
      
toddrew
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 15:01
tkostek wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 21:16

I don't read these forums all that much. I knew there was some controvery over these cards, but I didn't anticipate the level of bitterness I'm seeing here.


Take care in not confusing bitterness with joyful sarcasm Wink

Or not recognizing bitterness for what it is, I suppose Laughing

      
Faithful
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 16:53
Personally, I do not understand why DOW does not do something about a sizeable section of their user base that dislike these cards and consider them overpowered.

To me it seems somewhat of an ego issue of how cards were designed and whatever comes they will not change them, because the cards were conceived this way from the start.

I know there is an official tweak, but that was a slow train coming and did little to assuage the real issue.

I am not advocating to change things just because a few people dislike something, but this is not one of those type issues. These cards have created the highest split in user base than anything else I have seen on these forums.

To me, to simply turn a blind eye is not good business sense. Disgruntled players will not likely play as often, recommend the game to others, or buy future add-ons.

I have not played BL for some time now, but my reasons are not HR, FF, but I truly dislike the lack of testing DOW seems to have given cards and so players need a small book of clarifications to play the game.
In fact I have tried to sell a complete copy of BL to a few people here, but no takers as of yet.

You may agree or disagree and that is fine, but the fact remains this is a divided community over 2 or 3 cards.
      
jdw1710
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 19:45
Not to grind on with this topic, but maybe to discuss this topic more philosophically ... Very Happy

BattleLore, with so much reliance on dice and a mixture of weak and powerful plays, is a very random game. This randomness is a double-edged sword. It can sometimes even out a game between two very differently skilled players or it can swing the game way out into one players favor.

The randomness also makes the game somewhat epic (IMHO). Every game you play is likely going to be different someway, somehow. At the same time the randomness in this game doesn't totally eliminate strategy as using good tactics and strategy you can lean the game in your favor; but victory is not guaranteed.

If you are a player that wants the game field to be completely equal and winning, for the most part, based on player skill, you have the wrong game (or you need to adjust the game). However, if you more so enjoy seeing how the battle unfolds, rather then expect victory to the most skilled player then BattleLore is near perfect.

My guess is that Mr. Borg and DOW designed the game to be this random. As sdafilli said above " Some wars are just not meant to be won... and neither are they always meant to be fair."

Which catagory do you fall into?

Do you play to win and feel cheated if a dice roll or luck of card draw steals your victory? Play this game medieval style (without Lore) or use house rules.

Do you play to watch the outcome of the battle which ever way it turns, even though you of course still play to win Rolling Eyes? Then the game is fine as is.

Are there any other category's, such as you like to discuss game design flaws? Twisted Evil


      
dbc-
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 20:56
jdw1710 wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 19:45

Do you play to watch the outcome of the battle which ever way it turns, even though you of course still play to win Rolling Eyes? Then the game is fine as is.


I play the game to have fun and watch a story unfold. But just like a movie or a book, the story has to be good!
If I sit down to watch a movie, I don't want it to have a cheap ending. I want to be entertained the whole way through. You can't just sit down and say: "No matter how bad this movie is, it will still be 2 hours well spend".
HR/FF has ruined my enjoyment of some of the games I've played. Some of those games had me playing the card, other had my opponent playing the card. But common to those games is that neither my opponent nor I liked what those cards brought to the game. They made the victory feel cheap.
As I have said before, I wish DoW would simply make an alternate version in an expansion, making these cards optional. This would end the whole discussion. Fantasy Flight Games has done this with some of their games. It's an easy solution, making everyone happy.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 21:26
dbc- wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 13:56

As I have said before, I wish DoW would simply make an alternate version in an expansion, making these cards optional. This would end the whole discussion. Fantasy Flight Games has done this with some of their games. It's an easy solution, making everyone happy.

I would be in support of this just to make the issue go away. But the problem still exists that for those who have a problem with these cards is that there is not one single consensus on what the card should be. I highly doubt DOW is going to stick their necks out on the line and print up another copy of these cards and people are still upset with how they work.

If anything, they would be better off producing a set of cards that has the title of the cards, the graphics, and the "when to use" notes. Then they can leave the cost and the description blank so that everyone that wants to, can write in their own version. That way, no one can complain that their idea didn't make it as the final solution and you have more than just a PDF as the solution. You have a real card that can be shuffled into the deck and not stick out.

And out of curiosity, which games from FFG have users suggested replacements? I am aware of Dunwich Horror having a few cards that replaced some of the originals in Arkham Horror. but I thought these were pure erratas - not cards that the fans didn't like and wanted replaced.
      
dbc-
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 22:37
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 21:26

And out of curiosity, which games from FFG have users suggested replacements? I am aware of Dunwich Horror having a few cards that replaced some of the originals in Arkham Horror. but I thought these were pure erratas - not cards that the fans didn't like and wanted replaced.


They made replacements for the "dud" cards in doom.
And an optional Strategy Card for Twilight Imperium 3.
There were also 9 different cards being replaced in Descent. "For various reasons" as it says in the rules.
      
gheintze
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 08 August 2007 23:10
dbc- wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 14:56


As I have said before, I wish DoW would simply make an alternate version in an expansion, making these cards optional. This would end the whole discussion. Fantasy Flight Games has done this with some of their games. It's an easy solution, making everyone happy.



Except that DOW is happy with the games and has already stated that they will not make any changes to these cards. If you were a game designer would you issue a fix for something that you did not feel was a problem and thought the fix would change the game for the worse? I think not...

Maybe they should also balance all of the scenarios by giving people the exact same units and terrain. After all, it's also unfair to have different armies. And what if you don't draw the same command cards as your opponent? That's unfair too. Perhaps you should have the same choices as your opponent every turn. That way noone can get upset when things don't go their way. Twisted Evil

Geoff


      
cebalrai
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August 2005
Re:maybe to powerful Thu, 09 August 2007 02:59
gheintze,

Is it about the company being happy with its own product? Nope.

Not sure why you're carrying on about balance. It's 100% irrelevant to this conversation. Go back and read dbc's post.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 August 2007 03:00]

      
tkostek
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December 2006
Re:maybe to powerful Thu, 09 August 2007 07:40
I doubt we'll see 'corrected' cards, but I do expect to see new, optional lore cards / decks. This would give folks the option to build a base deck, excluding cards they don't like.

Judging from the ... 'conviction' of some folks, I doubt they would find that satisfactory since it doesn't address their philosophical problems. From a pragmatic standpoint, however, it would fix the issue.
      
dbc-
Senior Member

Posts: 180
Registered:
December 2006
Re:maybe to powerful Thu, 09 August 2007 08:52
gheintze wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 23:10

dbc- wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 14:56


As I have said before, I wish DoW would simply make an alternate version in an expansion, making these cards optional. This would end the whole discussion. Fantasy Flight Games has done this with some of their games. It's an easy solution, making everyone happy.



Except that DOW is happy with the games and has already stated that they will not make any changes to these cards. If you were a game designer would you issue a fix for something that you did not feel was a problem and thought the fix would change the game for the worse? I think not...

DoW has said nothing about the game being changed for the worse, by using house rules for these cards. Actually they suggested an "official" unofficial house rule for those who do not like HR/FF as is.
And most game companies do actually listen to their customers.
These cards have been the most discussed about issue with the game. Optional replacement cards would be a quick and cheap way to lay this issue to rest.

gheintze wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 23:10


Maybe they should also balance all of the scenarios by giving people the exact same units and terrain. After all, it's also unfair to have different armies. And what if you don't draw the same command cards as your opponent? That's unfair too. Perhaps you should have the same choices as your opponent every turn. That way noone can get upset when things don't go their way. Twisted Evil

Geoff



As cebalrai said - this is 100% irrelevant to this discussion.
      
dbc-
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December 2006
Re:maybe to powerful Thu, 09 August 2007 09:01
tkostek wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 07:40

I doubt we'll see 'corrected' cards, but I do expect to see new, optional lore cards / decks. This would give folks the option to build a base deck, excluding cards they don't like.

Judging from the ... 'conviction' of some folks, I doubt they would find that satisfactory since it doesn't address their philosophical problems. From a pragmatic standpoint, however, it would fix the issue.


I agree with all you said!

It is not unthinkable to see a Lore Master Expansion at some point in the future. If more cards were added to the deck, not only would it be possible to costumize the Lore Deck to suit ones tastes, it would also open up the possibility of both camps using their own deck of Lore Cards. Now that would be an interesting option. Adding another layer to the game.
Maybe this is the reason DoW is giving this discussion so little attention?
      
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