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ColtsFan76
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  Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 04:20
I had hoped to make this a more regular offering but with appendicitis and some other things going on, time slipped away from me. I was able to gather up some answers to questions which had fallen through the cracks here and there. I am sure even I missed a few with my downtime. So if you have any further questions, please post them at the bottom of this thread so I can gather them for next time.

These answers come directly from Eric as answered by Richard Borg.

Quote:

Hi Brian,

Sorry it took us so long to get back to you with answers. They are in
the attached file. Please note that Richard rephrased a few of the
questions which needed clarifications. Also I have removed the last
few questions about schedule of the Heroes and such, as these are now
better answered by the latest blog entry we posted earlier today.

many thanks for gathering these.

best,
eric


BattleLore Open Questions as of 2007-DEC-12

Goblins
Q: Can a Blue Goblinoid foot unit rush 2 spaces where there is no viable target but then attack if one becomes available (as the result of a retreat from another battle for example)?
A: No. If there was no viable target when the Blue Goblin unit made its two hex move, the move does not qualify as a Goblin Rush; the Goblin unit may not attack a unit that would come next to it this turn.

Q: If a Goblin Foot Unit rushes adjacent to a single enemy unit but that enemy is destroyed or retreats, can they target a adjacent an enemy that was not there at the time of the Goblin rush move (again as a result of a retreat from another battle)?
A: Yes, the Goblin may redirect its rush attack against this new target.

Shadow Walk
The card text states that units in the shadows can only attack or be attacked with one die. Subsequent Compendium answers clarify that Lore cards that are carried out without units (such as Chain Lightning) still roll the full amount of dice on the Lore card just played. Units that attack a unit in the shadows may still increase their dice through Lore / Command cards having only their base dice capped to 1 die. However, units in the shadow that attack cannot use Lore / Command cards to increase their base dice and have their total dice capped at 1 die....

Q: Why is it that units in the shadow are more restricted attacking out than units outside the shadows attack in? Why is it that both unit types would not be affected in the same manner?

A: To maintain design consistency and continuity. The main intent of Shadow Walk was to offer a sneaky way to move a unit around the battlefield. The player has a choice of when the unit will pop out of the shadows and strike. Giving the unit in the shadows the same ability to use lore battle modifiers would have made the Shadow Walk lore card too strong.

Lore Drain vs. False Orders
Q: This is a specific example of a general question: What is the timing of Lore card types? If I play Lore Drain on my opponent and he reacts with False Orders, which is resolved first? Rulebook says last card played is resolved first when there is a conflict. Is this considered a conflict?
A: Lore Drain is played along side your Command card - first Lore card played.
* False Orders is played in reaction to your opponent's Command card - it is the second Lore card played.
* False Orders is resolved first, and trumps the effect of the Lore Drain.

Dwarven / Goblinoid Mercenaries
Q: The cards state replace X unit(s) of your choice with the same weapon and banner type. What are the restrictions on these cards? For example, must the game come with that specific unit: can a human green archer be replaced with a Dwarven archer unit?
A: No. As the card states the same banner color and weapon are required.
Currently there are no green Dwarven archer units in the game so this is not a possible replacement option.

Q: If not, can a human green archer be replaced with a Dwarven Crossbow unit?
A: No, neither.

Q: Can a red human arbalester be replaced with a Goblinoid arbalester unit?
A: No, because there are [no] Goblin arbalester units in the game.


Epic & Reluctant Allies (RA)
Q: Clarification on the precise meaning of "Equal to Command" when using the Reluctant Allies rules: does this mean the total number of cards of both players in one camp (a possible 12 cards with two L3 Commanders) or is it back down to your own card since each player has his own hand?
A: A player's "Equal to Command" is computed in the same way as when the active player is playing a regular 2-player game.

Q: Using Call to Arms with the Reluctant Allies variant does not allow Reserve units to be called; therefore, Specialist cards dealing with Reserve units are ignored (in particular, Vantage Point, Forced Enrollment and Goblin Marauders). However, the Goblin Band says add these units to your reserves, can you still use this card to add the Band even if you do not have reserves?
A: No.

Q: In Reluctant Allies mode, can the same unit be ordered on both your turn and your ally's turn?
A: Yes it could.

Epic & Call to Arms
Q: When using Call to Arms to set up an epic game, each player draws 5 cards and selects a Scout Guard card to place first. Which player places the units first?
A: Players tally up their Green units on their Scout Guard. The player with the highest number of Green banners "out-scouts" his opponent, and becomes the Starting player for this adventure!
* The Starting player will deploy his Reserve last.
* In the event of a tie in the number of Green units deployed, the Starting player is determined by rolling 6 battle dice. The player that rolls the most Green helmets starts.

Call to Arms
Q: When using the Organized mode of Call to Arms to set up a game, which player reveals the first card first?
A: In Organized mode section - 4.2 Deploy your Guards - should read the same as Impromptu Mode. Where both players are revealing at the same time.
* Both players deploy their Guards, revealing the Deployment cards they played on their Right Wing, Center, and Left Wing.
* Do NOT reveal or play your Reserve card yet, only your Guards!

The rules state that when deploying guards, you may only place them within the highlighted area on the card or the special red/blue areas for Epic. It specifically states that no unit can be placed on the hexes shared by two sections....

Q: When dealing with Calling the Reserve, no mention is made of these restricted areas; only that of placing them on an empty hex of your baseline. Can reserve units be placed on the hexes shared by two sections?

A: Yes, p.7 Call to Arms

Q: In addition, can units placed next to existing units (as the result of a Specialist card) also be placed beyond these restricted areas as well (the 5th row or the hexes shared by two sections, for example)?
A: Yes

Q: Can Specialist units replace Levy Tokens as long as the "color" rules are applied?
A: Yes

Q: Why is it that Levied units go to the baseline and not where the original unit was to be placed?
A: Because we want to encourage players to try and plan their deployments in ways that minimize the number of levied units they will use (since, to some extent, these levied units are "wilds").

Q: If a creature is drawn on a deployment card but none are left, what color Levy token is placed?
A: Currently the creature's banner color on deployment cards is green, so a green Levy token is placed.

Q: What if you wanted a Blue creature and none are left; can you place a Blue levy Token?
A: No

Q: Must you place another creature if it is available even if it was not your first choice? Or may you choose the Levy token or a less desirable creature?
A: If you have creature figures available, it should be deployed, even if it is not your first choice. A Levy token should not be placed if you have creature figures available.

Q: Call to Arms attempts to replace the set-up steps from the basic rules with the new set-up from this expansion. Could we receive a flow-chart for setting up the game that takes into account all expansions which impact set-up? For reference at our attempt at one, please see this thread: http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=12842&start=0#msg _num_5
A: We will see if we can draft one up.

Landmarks
Q: Is a Stronghold's placement restricted to just the 3rd or 4th row like other Landmarks or is the only requirement that it is placed under an existing unit?
A: The only requirement is that it be placed under a friendly deployed unit.

Q: If your Stronghold is occupied by an enemy unit, do your units in adjacent hexes still receive Bold status?
A: No.

Q: Is a Creature's Lair considered a Landmark? Does it share the same general attributes as the other Landmarks?
A: Yes, and it behaves the same way unless explicitly specified otherwise on the Creature's Lair summary card.

Creatures
Q: There seems to be some confusion between the rules and the Creature Retreat/Trample flowchart that was issued by DOW. In particular, Step 7 states that the Creature must make a Critical Hit check for each hex that it cannot retreat. It was our understanding that a Critical Hit requires 2 dice rolls and this is consistent with the rules as outlined on page 43. However, there has been discussion on the German forums that the hexes a creature could not retreat are already counted as hits and so the Critical Hit check is just one additional roll of the dice; it was also stated that page 43 was specifically overturned. Which interpretation is correct?
A: The flow chart is correct. The example at the bottom of page 43 is incorrect. The dice should not have been re-rolled. In other words, in the example at the bottom of page 43, the two flags are hits, re-rolled only once, and the resulting dice (a flag and a green helmet, in the 2nd picture at the bottom) are sufficient to kill the spider outright. The 3rd picture (at the top of the right column on p 43) has no reason to be there.

Q: It also seems that the flowchart makes you take your critical rolls for all hexes all at once instead of one hex at a time. This seems counter-intuitive when a 1-figure unit is blocking one of the retreat paths. It seems like only 1 critical hit check should be made, trample the unit, clear the path, and take the remainder of the retreat freely. Is this new method really the intent of blocking a retreat?
A: The flow chart is correct as stated. This being said, this might still result in the trampling and retreat path clearance you describe (but all critical hit checks will have already been accounted for).

Q: A Spider requires a hit and 2 Lore to unleash her poison. When attempting to poison another Creature, in what order do you resolve things? Do you commit the 2 Lore to poison the Creature first? Or do you make the Critical Hit check first (since you had to hit to be eligible for the poison attack) to see if you kill the Creature outright (and store the Lore for later) and if it survives, spend the Lore to poison it?
A: You commit the 2 Lore to poison the creature simultaneously (ie they are spent, even if the Creature dies outright).

Q: If a unit is webbed and typically retreats multiple hexes per flag, does it take one hit for each hex it cannot retreat? If a unit is webbed and inherently ignores flags, does it continue to ignore flags when webbed?
A: No, the webbed unit takes one hit per flag rolled against it (that it cannot ignore), not per hex of retreat it cannot take. If the unit can inherently ignore some flags, those flags are ignored, and the remaining flags rolled, if any, each score a hit.

Q: When summoning an Earth Elemental, the dice used to summon are the same as the melee dice. Does this mean a unit's base number (i.e. 3 for blue units) only? Or can this number be increased due to Command/Lore cards that increase your melee dice (i.e. if Mounted Charge is played, can a blue unit roll 4 dice to summon)?
A: The unit's base dice number only. This number is not affected by Command or Lore cards.

Q: Does an Earth Elemental have to be ordered by a Command Card or can you just pay the Lore tokens and start moving him?
A: The Earth Elemental has to be ordered by a Command Card and its movement paid using Lore tokens.

Q: Units that normally retreat 2 hexes per flag retreat 2 hexes per Lore in a Pushback. If a frightened unit is forced to retreat due to this Pushback, is a panic check made?
A: Yes.

General
Q. If a card states that Lore causes hits or some other effect, can you choose to collect it as a Lore token in lieu of the card's effect or must you apply the text effect first?
A: No.

Q: Terrain vs. extra dice from Command/Lore cards: Terrain limits the base number of dice a unit tosses. Cards that increase the dice are applied after the cap. So if a Red unit battles into Wooded Terrain, he rolls 2 dice instead of 4 and if a card is played that gives him +1 dice in battle, he would now roll 3 into the Wooded Terrain. When does a card that reduces the dice come into effect? For example, Blinding Light is played giving the target -1 die for the turn. Would the Red unit attacking into the Wooded Terrain battle at 1 die (base dice capped at 2 for terrain - 1 for card effect) or 2 dice (original dice 4 - 1 for card effect = 3 and then capped at 2 dice for terrain)?
A: Cards that increase the dice are applied after the cap. Cards that reduce the dice are also applied after the cap.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 January 2008 11:58] by Moderator

      
toddrew
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 06:45
Thanks for getting these out and up, ColtsFan! Not a lot of time to digest these, but right off the bat:

Quote:

Lore Drain vs. False Orders
Q: This is a specific example of a general question: What is the timing of Lore card types? If I play Lore Drain on my opponent and he reacts with False Orders, which is resolved first? Rulebook says last card played is resolved first when there is a conflict. Is this considered a conflict?
A: Lore Drain is played along side your Command card - first Lore card played.
* False Orders is played in reaction to your opponent's Command card - it is the second Lore card played.
* False Orders is resolved first, and trumps the effect of the Lore Drain.



That one goes against the way I would think it would play out - the whole point of lore drain to me is to prevent an opponent's lore card from being afforded to play, and False Orders does nothing to another lore card, but if this is the intent, I think I can adjust.

Question I have now is: is this a double whammy against the player of Lore Drain - does the play of Lore Drain happen after the opposing player spends his 4 lore (7 if out of Character) and then lose any remaining Lore (if any Laughing ), while the player of Lore Drain spends his or her two lore to possibly drain the bottom of an already drained pool... I like it Twisted Evil

EDIT: Alright, did have time to digest it Very Happy Played out pretty much as I thought, but very good to have some reference. Biggest surprise to me (aside from the lore play above Wink ) was the spider's web not being as strong as I thought it was. I've lost countless goblins, dwarves, and creatures to hits that never were Laughing

Thanks for all the clarifications Richard and DoW.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 January 2008 06:58]

      
DarkPadawan
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 11:45
CF and Richard, thanks for putting the Q&A together.
Most of the answers turned out to be as I thought, but two were new to me:

Quote:

Q: If your Stronghold is occupied by an enemy unit, do your units in adjacent hexes still receive Bold status?
A: No.


This makes the recapturing process a bit harder.

Quote:

Q: If a unit is webbed and typically retreats multiple hexes per flag, does it take one hit for each hex it cannot retreat? If a unit is webbed and inherently ignores flags, does it continue to ignore flags when webbed?
A: No, the webbed unit takes one hit per flag rolled against it (that it cannot ignore), not per hex of retreat it cannot take. If the unit can inherently ignore some flags, those flags are ignored, and the remaining flags rolled, if any, each score a hit.


Good to know that inherently Bold units don't lose that status under a web.

Dark.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 January 2008 11:45]

      
Vasilis
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 12:46
I don't know if this has been answered but I'd like to know if Levy token baseline placement takes into account the SECTION of the initial hex that caused the use of levies.

In other words, can I place my levy unit on another section's baseline or not?

P.S. We got the web/bold rules right. The answer that I didn't expect was:

"Q: Can Specialist units replace Levy Tokens as long as the "color" rules are applied?
A: Yes"

this seems like a powerful tactic and if it is so, it contradicts the next statement:

"Q: Why is it that Levied units go to the baseline and not where the original unit was to be placed?
A: Because we want to encourage players to try and plan their deployments in ways that minimize the number of levied units they will use (since, to some extent, these levied units are "wilds")."

Thoughts anyone??
      
toddrew
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 13:31
Vasilis wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 04:46


"Q: Can Specialist units replace Levy Tokens as long as the "color" rules are applied?
A: Yes"

this seems like a powerful tactic and if it is so, it contradicts the next statement:

"Q: Why is it that Levied units go to the baseline and not where the original unit was to be placed?
A: Because we want to encourage players to try and plan their deployments in ways that minimize the number of levied units they will use (since, to some extent, these levied units are "wilds")."

Thoughts anyone??


This is one of the ones that I expected to be ruled in that fashion (and am happy that it did Smile ). I don't think the statements are contradictory if looked at as: if players both got the bonus of selecting any available properly colored unit and were able to deploy that unit in a likely strategically superior position, there would be more incentive to do so than if that same unit were required to be placed on the backline.

I do like that the levy tokens don't restrict the units to the base game both as allowing a viable tactic for more choice when fielding an army and allowing the expansion units that one has purchased another opportunity to hit the board (two shades of the same color I know, a subtle but important distinction in my crooked mind Very Happy ). However, I do think that at some point in the future (near future Question ) this will be an obselete rule as cta decks geared toward race specific armies take the field (though could still come into play if each player grabs the same "undead deck" with only a limited number of undead units available...)
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 14:05
Vasilis wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 05:46

I don't know if this has been answered but I'd like to know if Levy token baseline placement takes into account the SECTION of the initial hex that caused the use of levies.

In other words, can I place my levy unit on another section's baseline or not?

From the "duh!" answer we got on placing Reserve units on ANY hex on the baseline, I would follow the same interpretation for the Levy Token replacements - they can go anywhere ont he baseline (since it does not state that it must remain in the same section).

Quote:

"Q: Can Specialist units replace Levy Tokens as long as the "color" rules are applied?
A: Yes"

this seems like a powerful tactic and if it is so, it contradicts the next statement:

"Q: Why is it that Levied units go to the baseline and not where the original unit was to be placed?
A: Because we want to encourage players to try and plan their deployments in ways that minimize the number of levied units they will use (since, to some extent, these levied units are "wilds")."

Thoughts anyone??

For the first question, I wasn't expecting the answer to go that way but I am happy it did. As Todd pointed out, it gives us another way to "officially" use the Specialists.

The problem I see with this answer though is that replacing Levy tokens comes before selecting Specialist cards. So now you get into a position that you just ran out of "normal" troops and are replacing them with "specialists" and now you may run out of specialists, or deem certain card less valuable because the units are already tied up. Seems to take the teeth out of the specialist cards a bit.

As to the 2nd question, allowing Specilaists may have been one of the reasons Levy tokens got pushed back to the baseline. My baseline units still see a lot less action than the others closer to the front.
      
Vasilis
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 17:13
OK, I don't have any problem with levies gaining more power and Specialist cards losing their "punch". It just seems weird (and very powerful IMHO) that anyone can field a Goblin Band (using Levy token rules) by having a unit deployed in an impassable hex and still have 2 Specialist cards to pick...

All specialist units that affect entire sections (we have just the Goblin Band now but there will be others for sure) get even stronger with this ruling since the "penalty" for using levies (deploy in baseline) is negated.

Regarding my question about Levy token placement I did a little search and I found this (just as I remembered):
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=89867#msg_89867

Look at Richard Borg's answer:

"Q. When replacing a Feudal Levy Token, does only color matter "(equal or lower)?
"
"A. Yes, only color matters.
"
"An additional note, like a player's reserve units, the unit that is replacing the Feudal Levy Token must be placed on a "baseline hex (in the same section as the Feudal Levy Token) it is not "placed in the hex of the Feudal Levy Token.

Emphasis mine.
So this qualifies as an open question to DOW for February? Laughing
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 17:31
Vasilis wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 10:13

So this qualifies as an open question to DOW for February? Laughing

Seems clear to me with your further research. If you think it is contradictory to the above answers, we can certainly ask again.
      
Vasilis
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 17:50
Yes, I think that we need an official word about this because the CtA manual never mentions anything about same section placement for Levies. Even the fact that Levies are placed in the baseline is not very clear by reading the manual. It's just assumed because they are deployed in the same phase as the Reserve.

I'd really like an official clarification about the whole Levy token subject (in this thread even).
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 18:48
Vasilis wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 10:50

Yes, I think that we need an official word about this because the CtA manual never mentions anything about same section placement for Levies. Even the fact that Levies are placed in the baseline is not very clear by reading the manual. It's just assumed because they are deployed in the same phase as the Reserve.

I'd really like an official clarification about the whole Levy token subject (in this thread even).

And to be honest, the rulebook doesn't mention that Levy tokens are replaced on the baseline either. At least in my quick scan of the rules when I realized I stated the question as if plaing them on the baseline was fact!
      
Caboose
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 21:07
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 06:05

Vasilis wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 05:46

I don't know if this has been answered but I'd like to know if Levy token baseline placement takes into account the SECTION of the initial hex that caused the use of levies.

In other words, can I place my levy unit on another section's baseline or not?

From the "duh!" answer we got on placing Reserve units on ANY hex on the baseline, I would follow the same interpretation for the Levy Token replacements - they can go anywhere ont he baseline (since it does not state that it must remain in the same section).

Quote:

"Q: Can Specialist units replace Levy Tokens as long as the "color" rules are applied?
A: Yes"

this seems like a powerful tactic and if it is so, it contradicts the next statement:

"Q: Why is it that Levied units go to the baseline and not where the original unit was to be placed?
A: Because we want to encourage players to try and plan their deployments in ways that minimize the number of levied units they will use (since, to some extent, these levied units are "wilds")."

Thoughts anyone??

For the first question, I wasn't expecting the answer to go that way but I am happy it did. As Todd pointed out, it gives us another way to "officially" use the Specialists.

The problem I see with this answer though is that replacing Levy tokens comes before selecting Specialist cards. So now you get into a position that you just ran out of "normal" troops and are replacing them with "specialists" and now you may run out of specialists, or deem certain card less valuable because the units are already tied up. Seems to take the teeth out of the specialist cards a bit.

As to the 2nd question, allowing Specilaists may have been one of the reasons Levy tokens got pushed back to the baseline. My baseline units still see a lot less action than the others closer to the front.


I would have to agree with Colt here on the fact that I was surprised that DoW stated the Levy token could be replaced with a specialist. Namely since the Specialist section is definitely after the Call the Reserve section. Definitely more of a factor in RA games than anything now.

I'm glad the Web issue vs Bold got answered. Nice to see that inherit bold was still there when webbed. But still doesn't seem to resolve the issue, based on initial look, if the unit was bold via support, does the web remove it?!? Don't have the summary card in front of me and about ready to jam out the door.

The one question which I forgot to ask, and Todd probably knows where I'm going with this one, is if one is playing RA and your ally controls a creature, what is the cost for moving it ? It is both the command cost (2 command) plus lore (3 lore) or just one of them? Can't believe I forgot to ask that! grr
      
Caboose
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 21:08
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 10:48

Vasilis wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 10:50

Yes, I think that we need an official word about this because the CtA manual never mentions anything about same section placement for Levies. Even the fact that Levies are placed in the baseline is not very clear by reading the manual. It's just assumed because they are deployed in the same phase as the Reserve.

I'd really like an official clarification about the whole Levy token subject (in this thread even).

And to be honest, the rulebook doesn't mention that Levy tokens are replaced on the baseline either. At least in my quick scan of the rules when I realized I stated the question as if plaing them on the baseline was fact!


Although the rulebook doesn't, there was a ruling by Richard that stated that they Levy tokens must be placed on the baseline. I think that alone should be good enough.

Here is that link :
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=89867#msg_num_6

But also note in that SAME thread/reply Richard states that one cannot use the Levy token for a specialist card. But if that is the case, why NOW can one replace a Levy token with a specialist????? I think there is a conflict.

Cab

[Updated on: Wed, 09 January 2008 21:15]

      
toddrew
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 21:35
Caboose wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 13:07

I'm glad the Web issue vs Bold got answered. Nice to see that inherit bold was still there when webbed. But still doesn't seem to resolve the issue, based on initial look, if the unit was bold via support, does the web remove it?!?

Yes, webbed units neither receive nor give support.

Quote:

The one question which I forgot to ask, and Todd probably knows where I'm going with this one, is if one is playing RA and your ally controls a creature, what is the cost for moving it ? It is both the command cost (2 command) plus lore (3 lore) or just one of them? Can't believe I forgot to ask that! grr


Maybe it says different somewhere, but as long as the creature is ordered in section, shouldn't have to pay the 3 lore - 2 orders yes, but only pay 3 lore if ordered out of section.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 22:13
I agree with Todd on the ordering a Creature. It is all laid out and shoudl "stack" neatly.

Order your unit costs 1 Order.
Order your Creature in section costs 1 Order.
Order your Creature out of Section costs 1 Order + 3 Lore tokens.
Order your Ally's unit costs 2 Orders.
Order your Ally's Creature in section costs 2 Orders.
Order your Ally's Creature out of section costs 2 Orders + 3 Lore.

I don't think there is a "penalty" of 2 Orders and 6 Lore for an Ally's Creature out of Section, if that is what you are asking. If it is, then maybe we do need a clarification.
      
Vendral
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 09 January 2008 23:53
Todd, I have to disagree with you here
Quote:

Yes, webbed units neither receive nor give support.



I agree that the webbed doesn't give support, but I wonder from where you got that it doesn't receive suppport.
As I read the rules it gets support.
Quoting from the rules
Quote:

Until freed, the unit may not battle back, move or battle. All flags rolled against it count as hits. A unit caught in a web does not support adjacent friendly units until it frees itself from the web.

It does not say anything about not receiving support
      
toddrew
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Thu, 10 January 2008 11:09
Vendral wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 15:53

Quote:

Until freed, the unit may not battle back, move or battle. All flags rolled against it count as hits. A unit caught in a web does not support adjacent friendly units until it frees itself from the web.

It does not say anything about not receiving support


I may have created a ruling here Laughing I think at some point it was said that units were not bold if webbed and supported and this is why I had been playing that units that are webbed are never allowed to ignore flags while in a web (and why I thought the Spider was so wonderful Wink ). Then I wondered about Fearless and the web: Fearless does allow flags to be ignored (though can't battle back, obviously {or not so obviously, even Very Happy }). And now knowing that inherently bold units may also ignore a flag (though inherently frightened units do not take two hits per flag, only one like every other unit), perhaps I was a bit hasty there.

Regardless, I broke my self-imposed restriction of not asking more than three questions in a row on the compendiums and slapped that query up there: Do webbed units receive support (and do they subsequently ignore a flag)?
      
Caboose
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Thu, 10 January 2008 11:17
toddrew wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 13:35

Caboose wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 13:07

I'm glad the Web issue vs Bold got answered. Nice to see that inherit bold was still there when webbed. But still doesn't seem to resolve the issue, based on initial look, if the unit was bold via support, does the web remove it?!?

Yes, webbed units neither receive nor give support.


That's what I get for typing a question in haste!!!

What about the Goblin Bass Drummers as well as Goblin Drummer - basically 2 units that give support to either the unit or to OTHER units. I don't think I'm missing any other unit that act like these 2, am I ?!? (Note : I thought there was a human equivalent but I'm not seeing it and I don't have Scottish Wars. If I'm missing something like these 2 units, let me know and thus I'll include them as well).

For the Goblin Drummer, I do believe it is inheritly bold AS long as the drummer figure is in the unit.

As for the Goblin Bass Drummer, the support presence given by the Bass Drummers is more trickier to answer. Is it inheritly bold or not ?!? I couldn't find anywhere that states it one way or another.

Now back to the Spider's web... In the rulebook on page 45 states : "A unit caught in a web does not support adjacent friendly units until it frees itself from the web". But doesn't mention about GIVING support either.

Further more, I see that Todd asked in the Spider's comprendium about if Web units can be supported (as of Jan 10th, 2008). So find it a tad funny about you asking about webbed units and support! Smile

Thus we still have some unresolved questions here about Web and would be nice to get them answered.

As a footnote to DoW, I see that there are some questions in the Lore as well as monster's compendium that have not been answered in quite some time.

toddrew wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 13:35


Quote:

The one question which I forgot to ask, and Todd probably knows where I'm going with this one, is if one is playing RA and your ally controls a creature, what is the cost for moving it ? It is both the command cost (2 command) plus lore (3 lore) or just one of them? Can't believe I forgot to ask that! grr


Maybe it says different somewhere, but as long as the creature is ordered in section, shouldn't have to pay the 3 lore - 2 orders yes, but only pay 3 lore if ordered out of section.



Coltsfan wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 14:13


I agree with Todd on the ordering a Creature. It is all laid out and shoudl "stack" neatly.

Order your unit costs 1 Order.
Order your Creature in section costs 1 Order.
Order your Creature out of Section costs 1 Order + 3 Lore tokens.
Order your Ally's unit costs 2 Orders.
Order your Ally's Creature in section costs 2 Orders.
Order your Ally's Creature out of section costs 2 Orders + 3 Lore.

I don't think there is a "penalty" of 2 Orders and 6 Lore for an Ally's Creature out of Section, if that is what you are asking. If it is, then maybe we do need a clarification.


Todd - Sadly no where does it state that - in Epic or CtA rulebook. I know it costs 3 lore for out of section, based on page 41 for creatures.
Quote:

Ordering a Creature "Out-of-section" Creatures are very special units. In addition to being more resistant to attack in Combat (see Critical Hit below), they can be ordered at the will of their master. When playing a Section card, if you wish to issue an order to a Creature that is in a different section(s) from the one(s) designated by your card, you may do so by immediately paying 3 Lore tokens out of your goblet.(Italics for emphasis)


First, note the above states at the will of the master. Since the ally is NOT the master of the creature, can the creature be ordered by anyone OTHER than the master?? (Stated the question that way, in case there is some way an enemy could..thinking ahead <G>).

Second, if the above is Yes and thus can be ordered by the ally, then what is the cost to order/move the creature?

For in section, I think we can agree that the cost is 2 command orders.

For out of section, would it be a) 2 command order, b) 3 Lore or c) both 2 command orders AND 3 Lore? And because we are asking questions and we acted within 10 minutes like those TV commercials we get this bonus question : If it does cost 3 lore, do all 3 lore go back to the lore pool or to the creature's master or some variation?!? - I know it probably is the lore pool but couldn't hurt to ask and see if we get DoW to blurt out some unknown item about BL that is about to come. Twisted Evil

Colt - See above..namely the issue of can the Creature be controlled by the ally...

Seems I've got some more items that need answers...

Cab
p.s. Todd I see now why you asked the question in comprendium..boy my eyes are tired! sorry...

[Updated on: Thu, 10 January 2008 11:21]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Thu, 10 January 2008 14:19
Caboose wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 04:17

Todd - Sadly no where does it state that - in Epic or CtA rulebook. I know it costs 3 lore for out of section, based on page 41 for creatures.
Quote:

Ordering a Creature "Out-of-section" Creatures are very special units. In addition to being more resistant to attack in Combat (see Critical Hit below), they can be ordered at the will of their master. When playing a Section card, if you wish to issue an order to a Creature that is in a different section(s) from the one(s) designated by your card, you may do so by immediately paying 3 Lore tokens out of your goblet.(Italics for emphasis)


First, note the above states at the will of the master. Since the ally is NOT the master of the creature, can the creature be ordered by anyone OTHER than the master?? (Stated the question that way, in case there is some way an enemy could..thinking ahead <G>).

Second, if the above is Yes and thus can be ordered by the ally, then what is the cost to order/move the creature?

For in section, I think we can agree that the cost is 2 command orders.

For out of section, would it be a) 2 command order, b) 3 Lore or c) both 2 command orders AND 3 Lore? And because we are asking questions and we acted within 10 minutes like those TV commercials we get this bonus question : If it does cost 3 lore, do all 3 lore go back to the lore pool or to the creature's master or some variation?!? - I know it probably is the lore pool but couldn't hurt to ask and see if we get DoW to blurt out some unknown item about BL that is about to come. Twisted Evil

Colt - See above..namely the issue of can the Creature be controlled by the ally...

Seems I've got some more items that need answers...

Cab
p.s. Todd I see now why you asked the question in comprendium..boy my eyes are tired! sorry...

First off, I am leary to wear out our welcome by gathering these questions if we already have the answers. This isn't meant to be, "I don't know, let's ask DOW" We need ot be doing a bit of brainstorming and logic ourselves. This is not meant to be a crutch but a last resort when we have come to multiple positions equally supported by fact that can't be resolved.

Epic RA clearly states that your ally's units can be ordered by you. A creature is a unit. Period. So at a bare minimum, I can order my ally's creature in section for a cost of 2 orders. I won't accept any other answer until you can come up with a solid series of facts that supports another position.

"Will of the master" is not a defined game term; it is a bit of flourish to explain the intent behind the creature being ordered out of section. That game term is "ordering a Creature out of section." No other unit can ordered out of section so THIS is what makes the Creature special (in addition to other things). To help us understand WHY a creature can be ordered out of setion, they called it the "will of the master." So all this references if paying additional Lore to "impress that will" upon the creature.

So if now you want to impress that will upon your allie's creature, it still is going to cost you 2 orders and, if out of section, at least 3 Lore tokens. Since the orders are "doubled" I could see a slight case for saying the Lore is doubled and a weak argument for 6 Lore tokens. But in reality, the "formula" isn't doubling anything, it is just adding an extra Order. So really, there is no support to add additional Lore.

There is no mention of any rules that override this "Out of Section" ordering for creatures. Therefore, it should remain the same. So if you want to present a counter-argument, let's see the logic trail.

And I just caught that now you question where the spent Lore goes. Why would it go to the Ally? What precedence do we have that you would pay your ally Lore? The concept, as you pointed out, ist to force the will onto the creature. So the back story is your are channeling Lore to get the creature to do your bidding. That is sopent up not used as payment to your ally.
      
Vasilis
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Thu, 10 January 2008 17:21
Caboose wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 22:08


Although the rulebook doesn't, there was a ruling by Richard that stated that they Levy tokens must be placed on the baseline. I think that alone should be good enough.

Here is that link :
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=89867#msg_num_6


My question is about the section of the baseline. Richard states that Levies are placed on the baseline on the same section that the token was used.
This is not mentioned anywhere else here in this forum, in CtA manual or basic rules, so most people (I believe) just assume that Levies can be placed on any baseline hex but according to Richard this is not the case. I think this needs confirmation.

Caboose wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 22:08


But also note in that SAME thread/reply Richard states that one cannot use the Levy token for a specialist card. But if that is the case, why NOW can one replace a Levy token with a specialist????? I think there is a conflict.


There is no conflict. You misinterpreted Richard's answer. What he meant is that you cannot use Specialist cards in such a way that you are forced to use a Levy token instead of the units granted by the card.
      
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 02:22
Vasilis wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 09:21

Caboose wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 22:08


Although the rulebook doesn't, there was a ruling by Richard that stated that they Levy tokens must be placed on the baseline. I think that alone should be good enough.

Here is that link :
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=89867#msg_num_6


My question is about the section of the baseline. Richard states that Levies are placed on the baseline on the same section that the token was used.
This is not mentioned anywhere else here in this forum, in CtA manual or basic rules, so most people (I believe) just assume that Levies can be placed on any baseline hex but according to Richard this is not the case. I think this needs confirmation.

Caboose wrote on Wed, 09 January 2008 22:08


But also note in that SAME thread/reply Richard states that one cannot use the Levy token for a specialist card. But if that is the case, why NOW can one replace a Levy token with a specialist????? I think there is a conflict.


There is no conflict. You misinterpreted Richard's answer. What he meant is that you cannot use Specialist cards in such a way that you are forced to use a Levy token instead of the units granted by the card.


Well I think there is a conflict..since if one can use a Levy token to be a specialist (and Yes I know there are some specialist cards that could multiple replaced units for others - not going there - just the 1 for 1), then why not stated it in that reply at that time??

Even though I know it really is going to be only an issue in RA games (usually Green tokens), due to my gaming experience, just that rather it be "fair" to both vs being because a one side got to run out of an item and the other gets to replace the token with a specialist unit.

And since one can replace the token with an appropriate color specialist, one could argue that side is getting to do 3 specialist cards to the other's 2. And if one thinks specialist units are a little bit better than the original base, they could be right (and won't go there - let each person decide that on their own).

As I was discussing with Todd this morning/evening, the wording in the CtA rulebook could have been more clearer, since one knew there would be expansions and thus the base units could have been more clearly defined or at least said expansions are included as well. I know BL is not a static game - it is a dynamic game, but that being the case, a few choice words would have been nice.

Cab
      
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 02:30
Well as I mentioned above, Todd and I were looking over the Q&A and thus discussed and/or wrote down the following additional Q&A items - some could be clarifications, others would be additional Q&A questions to the original questions (And yes, sometimes we both don't get to sleep - I know why I can't - I think sometimes Todd's reason is he has BL on the brain <G>)



1) In regards to the Lore Drain vs False Order question, we came up with only 5 spells that can be cast in the command phase vs a Lore Drain

mass shield
false orders
blinding light
foiled/dispel lore

And if there is sufficient lore to cast both, obviously not an issue. Just that it seems based on some discussions between us that it seem the answer given didn't appear to be thoughtful thought out - or maybe didn't look at the bigger picture. Thus it would be nice to get some examples with Lore Drain and the above 5 spells (well we know what foiled/dispel lore does - so any of the other 3 would be great). Just trying to get our arms around the issue so one can try to get the bigger picture of it.

2) RA and lore cards - it is ONE lore card PER side or per person per turn ? If per person, any limitations in regards to the ally person on playing
(i.e. It's Player #1 turn - thus what limitations would apply for player #3 - his ally)

3) Call to Arms
In regards to Baseline units, it was stated in Q&A on 12/12/07 that it was okay for units to be placed in sections shared by both sections. What was not asked was what about Scout Guard cards for Epic / Call to Arms. Can those units be placed on those squares?

4) Levy Token in Call to Arms
In Q&A for 12/12/07, it was stated that Specialist units replace Levy tokens as long as "color" rules apply. But in Richard's reply at http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=89867#msg_num_6
Richard states that one cannot use a Levy token for a specialist card.

That would seem to be in conflict with each other, since it seems odd the token CAN be exchanged for a specialist unit BUT not for a card.

5) For CtA, In regards to # of units of each unit, how does one determine that - it is really the # of figures that came in the base BL + the banners included in CtA (this is for those rule lawyers who want to try to get a levy token!).

6) In regards to if there is not enough room on the baseline when in the Call the Reserve, what is the order, if any if there is only 1 hex avaiable and you have 2 Reserves units to play as well as 1 Levy token unit. Based on the CtA rules on page 9 it would seem the Reserve unit would be placed 1st due to the Must be placed. And as thus, it would be player's choice on which one of the 2 Reserves would be placed. Correct?

7) Creatures on landmarks/lairs
Do creatures get another level of boldness while on a landmark or lair ? An example would be a Hill giant on a Rockpile lair hex.
Is the Hill Giant Bold 1 (inheritly bold) or Bold 2 (inherit bold + bold due to being on rockpile) ?

Cool Summoning and Lore/Command cards
To verify on the Q&A from 12/07/07, it was stated that base dice for the unit is used for summoning. Thus if a lore or command card would cause LESS number of dice to be rolled, it would have no effect, correct?

9) Units in a Web
The question from Q&A from 12/07/07 is definitely vague and thus more questions have arisen. The main item of contention it would seem is "unit can inherently ignore some flags". How is that determined and how does one determine the boldness of the web unit ?
a) Can a web unit be supported by other units ?
b) Can a web unit be supported by Goblin Bass Drummers presence ?
c) Can landmarks, ramparts, etc - hexes that make a unit bold - still allow the webbed unit to be bold
d) If a unit is inheritly bold (Dwarfs, Creature and Goblin drummer imbeded with a unit), it would seem that unit still has that type of boldness
even if webbed. Correct?
e) Examples on any item that doesn't seem obvious would be appreciated

10) General lore clairification :
In regards to the following Q&A : "Q. If a card states that Lore causes hits or some other effect, can you choose to collect it as a Lore token in lieu of the card's effect or must you apply the text effect first? A: No.", is the No answer referring to the fact that one cannot collect lore for ANY of those times or No answer saying you have to apply the text effect's first ?

Thanks
Cab
      
DrSpunj
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 03:42
Caboose wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 19:30

1) In regards to the Lore Drain vs False Order question, we came up with only 5 spells that can be cast in the command phase vs a Lore Drain

mass shield
false orders
blinding light
foiled/dispel lore

And if there is sufficient lore to cast both, obviously not an issue. Just that it seems based on some discussions between us that it seem the answer given didn't appear to be thoughtful thought out - or maybe didn't look at the bigger picture. Thus it would be nice to get some examples with Lore Drain and the above 5 spells (well we know what foiled/dispel lore does - so any of the other 3 would be great). Just trying to get our arms around the issue so one can try to get the bigger picture of it.


The only thing I'd add here is "the bigger picture" should include the Lore Compendium's False Order entry regarding it vs Spy, so that similar interactions between Lore Cards when Lore Drain isn't being played still make sense!

Thanks.
      
toddrew
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 04:09
DrSpunj wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 19:42


The only thing I'd add here is "the bigger picture" should include the Lore Compendium's False Order entry regarding it vs Spy, so that similar interactions between Lore Cards when Lore Drain isn't being played still make sense!



Thanks for bringing that up good Dr. I knew there was a precedent that made the Lore Drain and False Order ruling seem out of place to me, and that was it. Seemed to me that the same reasoning should apply when Lore Drain is played prior to False Orders.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 04:54
Caboose wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 19:30

Well as I mentioned above, Todd and I were looking over the Q&A and thus discussed and/or wrote down the following additional Q&A items - some could be clarifications, others would be additional Q&A questions to the original questions (And yes, sometimes we both don't get to sleep - I know why I can't - I think sometimes Todd's reason is he has BL on the brain <G>)



1) In regards to the Lore Drain vs False Order question, we came up with only 5 spells that can be cast in the command phase vs a Lore Drain

mass shield
false orders
blinding light
foiled/dispel lore

And if there is sufficient lore to cast both, obviously not an issue. Just that it seems based on some discussions between us that it seem the answer given didn't appear to be thoughtful thought out - or maybe didn't look at the bigger picture. Thus it would be nice to get some examples with Lore Drain and the above 5 spells (well we know what foiled/dispel lore does - so any of the other 3 would be great). Just trying to get our arms around the issue so one can try to get the bigger picture of it.

I agree with the list you have though I might separate out Foiled!/Lore Drain since these are in reaction to a Lore card while the others are in reaction to a Command card.

I guess, playing Devil's Advocate, one could say that since these first 3 cards are "played alongside your Command Card" that they are somehow "linked." BUT, as DrSpunj pointed out, then why the clear description of Spy not being affected by False Orders?

Honestly, I think we have one of two things here: 1) Richard misspoke and will need ot revise his comments or 2) DOW interpreted something other than Richard's intent when putting together the rulebook and answering the Spy v. FO issue.

The structure is the same and the answer should be the same in both cases: a "Play alongside Command card" Lore card (Spy/Lore Drain) should be allowed to be resolved first and then the False Orders takes effect.

Quote:

2) RA and lore cards - it is ONE lore card PER side or per person per turn ? If per person, any limitations in regards to the ally person on playing
(i.e. It's Player #1 turn - thus what limitations would apply for player #3 - his ally)

There should be little confusion on this one. A "Turn" is one person's complete turn. Each player has one marker designating one of the 4 Turns of that round. "Turn" is repeatedly defined as 1 person taking 1 turn:
"Each camp alternates taking turns, starting with the player
holding Turn Marker # 1,..."
"During his turn, a player may only..."
"At the end of his turn, the active player draws new Command
and Lore cards, and/or Lore tokens as in a regular game."

When it is MY turn, I can play 1 Lore card and only 1 of my opponents can play a reaction Lore card. On my Ally's turn, he can play 1 Lore card and again, only one of our opponents can play 1 Lore reaction card.

This is clearly stated in theis rule:
"Only the active player may play a Lore card but either of the
other camp players may play a Lore card as a Reaction. Only one
Lore card may be played by each Camp during a turn, however."

Quote:

3) Call to Arms
In regards to Baseline units, it was stated in Q&A on 12/12/07 that it was okay for units to be placed in sections shared by both sections. What was not asked was what about Scout Guard cards for Epic / Call to Arms. Can those units be placed on those squares?

I would definitively say yes. Using the same logic presented as the Reserve units, the ONLY restriction for Scout Gaurd placement is that it take place in the 5th row. The restrictive nature of the Red/Blue area is ONLY for deploying the Left, Right, and Center guards.

We were being overly restrictive and got what I call a "duh" answer from Richard on this: Page 7 of CtA says place it on the Baseline. Duh! Very Happy

Quote:

4) Levy Token in Call to Arms
In Q&A for 12/12/07, it was stated that Specialist units replace Levy tokens as long as "color" rules apply. But in Richard's reply at http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=89867#msg_num_6
Richard states that one cannot use a Levy token for a specialist card.

That would seem to be in conflict with each other, since it seems odd the token CAN be exchanged for a specialist unit BUT not for a card.

Look at the timing. Replacing Levy Tokens happens before calling the Specialists. Calling Specialist occurs after the Levy Token Replacement. So if you place a Levy Token during the Specilaist phase, when do you expect to replace it with units again? Duh! Very Happy

I see no conflict on this one. Levy tokens are meant to alleviate a random problem you run into - not enough units to cover what's listed on the cards. If you don't fix it, then you are short units on the board and at slight disadvantage. Specialist cards are a deliberate selection process. The only element of luck is if both players play the same or similar cards. But since you have more control over this, you shouldn't be granted a bonus for making a wrong decision. And if you can't fulfill the requirements on your card, it's not the end of the world. In most cases, you stick with the same number of troops anyway.

I am just surprised that a Specialist can be deployed in this manner. I would think it takes away some of the excitement of the Specialist phase. But looking over them again, there are still a few specialist cards that give you more than just placing a new unit type. I think this is probably more of a reaction from the community to get more Specialists in play. But put it in perspective, how many Levy tokens typically get placed? I have 2 sets so i don't have the problem, but I have never had a situation where I had to pull out the 2nd set either.

Quote:

5) For CtA, In regards to # of units of each unit, how does one determine that - it is really the # of figures that came in the base BL + the banners included in CtA (this is for those rule lawyers who want to try to get a levy token!).

Huh? It is limited to what you physically have present. Unless both players agree that the "figure" doesn't matter and only the banner counts. Rules lawyers should go play another game.

Quote:

6) In regards to if there is not enough room on the baseline when in the Call the Reserve, what is the order, if any if there is only 1 hex avaiable and you have 2 Reserves units to play as well as 1 Levy token unit. Based on the CtA rules on page 9 it would seem the Reserve unit would be placed 1st due to the Must be placed. And as thus, it would be player's choice on which one of the 2 Reserves would be placed. Correct?

Yes, the order goes:
1) Place your Reserve Units first
2) Place your Levy Token Replacements
3) Place your Specialist cards that affect the baseline
In eitehr step, if no more vacant hexes are left, you can no longer place units from that line nor any subsequent line.

Quote:

7) Creatures on landmarks/lairs
Do creatures get another level of boldness while on a landmark or lair ? An example would be a Hill giant on a Rockpile lair hex.
Is the Hill Giant Bold 1 (inheritly bold) or Bold 2 (inherit bold + bold due to being on rockpile) ?

No. This has been stated multiple times. Page 42 of the rulebook: "Creatures do not benefit from a customary Morale boost, when occupying a Landmark." And creature lairs have been "officially" defined as Landmarks with this last round of questions. Which is what the rulebook has always implied since they put Creature Lairs under the Landmark chapter.

Quote:

Cool Summoning and Lore/Command cards
To verify on the Q&A from 12/07/07, it was stated that base dice for the unit is used for summoning. Thus if a lore or command card would cause LESS number of dice to be rolled, it would have no effect, correct?

That is what I understand the ruling to be. I chewed this one over a bit because it went opposite of what I thought. The Melee dice are used as a basic defintiion of the number of dice. They didn't use "battle" dice for one reason that I see. If it isn't a battle, it can't get modified by Lore cards that affect combat dice. i think they also used "melee" as all units have melee even if they are ranged units.

One question that I am now pondering is this: What about units that have variable melee dice? Is it still what a melee would be normally (i.e. Green always rolls 2 dice, Blue always rolls 3 dice). Or is it affected by what else might be going on for that unit. For example, if a ranged green units moves to the Summon circle first, does it roll 1 die (since it was on the move)? Does a Clan Chief at full strength roll 4 dice?

Both of these conditions are battle-type conditions. What are your thoughts on that?

Quote:

9) Units in a Web
The question from Q&A from 12/07/07 is definitely vague and thus more questions have arisen. The main item of contention it would seem is "unit can inherently ignore some flags". How is that determined and how does one determine the boldness of the web unit ?
a) Can a web unit be supported by other units ?
b) Can a web unit be supported by Goblin Bass Drummers presence ?
c) Can landmarks, ramparts, etc - hexes that make a unit bold - still allow the webbed unit to be bold
d) If a unit is inheritly bold (Dwarfs, Creature and Goblin drummer imbeded with a unit), it would seem that unit still has that type of boldness
even if webbed. Correct?
e) Examples on any item that doesn't seem obvious would be appreciated

Some of the wording on this one is a bit unclear to me. First he says if they can ignore flags before, they can still ignore flags. That implies all types of Bold. But then he makes it sound like only if they inherently ignore flags do they still do so. Which makes it sound like only Dwarves and Knight and not from the other types of support.

a) it would seem so since no reference has been made that it cannot be supported.
b) ditto
c) ditto
d) yes, this was specifically stated
e) that covers it all right: inherent, landmark, support, I guess we only left off Lore cards

This list probably warrants another look and needs to be sent in.

Quote:

10) General lore clairification :
In regards to the following Q&A : "Q. If a card states that Lore causes hits or some other effect, can you choose to collect it as a Lore token in lieu of the card's effect or must you apply the text effect first? A: No.", is the No answer referring to the fact that one cannot collect lore for ANY of those times or No answer saying you have to apply the text effect's first ?

Thanks
Cab

Good catch. I read it as No, you cannot have the option.
      
Vasilis
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 11:55
ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 11 January 2008 05:54


Yes, the order goes:
1) Place your Reserve Units first
2) Place your Levy Token Replacements
3) Place your Specialist cards that affect the baseline
In eitehr step, if no more vacant hexes are left, you can no longer place units from that line nor any subsequent line.


Let me say this again with an example.
If my baseline has 3 hexes free. One on the left, one on the right and one in the center section. I also have a Levy token on the left section.

According to your table:

1) I place my Reserve units. Let's say I cover my left and my center hexes with the Reserves.

This is when it gets interesting
2) I cannot place my Levy token replacements because I don't have empty hexes on my left section anymore (which is the section the Levy token was placed in the deployment phase) and I cannot place my Levy replacements on the empty right-section-hex according to Richard.
I lose my chance to field Levy Replacement units.

3)Finally, I place (for example) my Goblin Band on the still empty right section hex.

Is this the intention of the placement rules?
      
toddrew
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 13:51
Vasilis wrote on Fri, 11 January 2008 03:55

Is this the intention of the placement rules?


I think this is a good point - what are the intentions? While definitely not an ironclad way of interpretting rules, I think it is helpful when determining the spirit of them until an "official" ruling is made upon a matter that appears unclear.

For levy tokens, to me, they are just a way of handling a shortage of units. I believe that if the situation were to arise where by placing all of one's reserves no hexes would be left to place one's token replacements, one would have the option of choosing not to place as many of the reserves as wanted (in fact, I believe one would have this option regardless, though it would very rarely be advantageous to do so).

It would certainly be the rare board that had less than 7 available hexes on the backline (or second line if Epic). If a board was well congested back there, adventure probably should note exceptions for CtA (unless that was an intended feature of the board: limiting one or both sides reserves).
      
DarkPadawan
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 14:09
Quote:

That is what I understand the ruling to be. I chewed this one over a bit because it went opposite of what I thought. The Melee dice are used as a basic defintiion of the number of dice. They didn't use "battle" dice for one reason that I see. If it isn't a battle, it can't get modified by Lore cards that affect combat dice. i think they also used "melee" as all units have melee even if they are ranged units.

One question that I am now pondering is this: What about units that have variable melee dice? Is it still what a melee would be normally (i.e. Green always rolls 2 dice, Blue always rolls 3 dice). Or is it affected by what else might be going on for that unit. For example, if a ranged green units moves to the Summon circle first, does it roll 1 die (since it was on the move)? Does a Clan Chief at full strength roll 4 dice?

Both of these conditions are battle-type conditions. What are your thoughts on that?

CF, following your thoughts I think "melee dice" is used as synonym for banner base dice (Green 2, Blue 3, Red 4). As you say, summoning is no battle and therefore the 1d cap (targeting penalty) of archers should not apply.

In this special case, the base dice could be seen as a measure for experience and training and not for battle-related abilities, so no modifiers from terrain or movement or lore cards would be appropriate and thus would not have any effect on the number of dice.

Dark.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 14:55
Vasilis wrote on Fri, 11 January 2008 04:55


Is this the intention of the placement rules?

Yes, I believe so. But if you cover your left and center, and you have levy tokens in thiose sections, you have no one to blame but yourself!

But let's put this in perspective. Each section has 3 baseline hexes associated with it. And then there are 4 more baseline hexes (one of hte far left, one on the far right, and the 2 split ones flanking the center).

Acoording to our interpretation, the Levy Tokens replacements can only go on the 3-hexes reserved for the guards. The Reserve and specialists can go anywhere on the baseline (unless otherwise stated on a Specialist card.

So basically, you have one of 3 spots for each Levy Token. Levy Tokens are most likely going to be in the Left section each time, possibly in the Center and rarely on the Right. (Since they are revealed in that order and you shouldn't be running out of units that quickly!). And again, how many Levy tokens are getting called in a game? Can't be more than a couple.

Reserves are limite to 2 sometimes 3 units. They have 4 spots that should mostly be vacant (since Guards can't be deployed there only impassable terrain becomes a problem).

So it should be rare indeed that you get so crowded on the baseline, you loose figures. You can see what section has Levy Tokens and make sure you keep the appropriate hexes open in that section.
      
Caboose
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Fri, 11 January 2008 19:49
ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 20:54

Caboose wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 19:30

Well as I mentioned above, Todd and I were looking over the Q&A and thus discussed and/or wrote down the following additional Q&A items - some could be clarifications, others would be additional Q&A questions to the original questions (And yes, sometimes we both don't get to sleep - I know why I can't - I think sometimes Todd's reason is he has BL on the brain <G>)

1) In regards to the Lore Drain vs False Order question, we came up with only 5 spells that can be cast in the command phase vs a Lore Drain

mass shield
false orders
blinding light
foiled/dispel lore

And if there is sufficient lore to cast both, obviously not an issue. Just that it seems based on some discussions between us that it seem the answer given didn't appear to be thoughtful thought out - or maybe didn't look at the bigger picture. Thus it would be nice to get some examples with Lore Drain and the above 5 spells (well we know what foiled/dispel lore does - so any of the other 3 would be great). Just trying to get our arms around the issue so one can try to get the bigger picture of it.

I agree with the list you have though I might separate out Foiled!/Lore Drain since these are in reaction to a Lore card while the others are in reaction to a Command card.

I guess, playing Devil's Advocate, one could say that since these first 3 cards are "played alongside your Command Card" that they are somehow "linked." BUT, as DrSpunj pointed out, then why the clear description of Spy not being affected by False Orders?

Honestly, I think we have one of two things here: 1) Richard misspoke and will need ot revise his comments or 2) DOW interpreted something other than Richard's intent when putting together the rulebook and answering the Spy v. FO issue.

The structure is the same and the answer should be the same in both cases: a "Play alongside Command card" Lore card (Spy/Lore Drain) should be allowed to be resolved first and then the False Orders takes effect.



Still this as well as another one below, I think it might be nice to get some clarification from DoW, since it definitely seems odd and thus why the call for examples. Then maybe the person(s) responding can see/look at the cards and maybe understand the bigger picture. And see why some of us seem stunned about the response.

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 20:54


Quote:

3) Call to Arms
In regards to Baseline units, it was stated in Q&A on 12/12/07 that it was okay for units to be placed in sections shared by both sections. What was not asked was what about Scout Guard cards for Epic / Call to Arms. Can those units be placed on those squares?

I would definitively say yes. Using the same logic presented as the Reserve units, the ONLY restriction for Scout Gaurd placement is that it take place in the 5th row. The restrictive nature of the Red/Blue area is ONLY for deploying the Left, Right, and Center guards.

We were being overly restrictive and got what I call a "duh" answer from Richard on this: Page 7 of CtA says place it on the Baseline. Duh! Very Happy


I'll need to relook at this one, since there was something I was thinking at the time - but then one doesn't think much when one hasn't had sleep for 48+ hours.

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 20:54


Quote:

4) Levy Token in Call to Arms
In Q&A for 12/12/07, it was stated that Specialist units replace Levy tokens as long as "color" rules apply. But in Richard's reply at http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=89867#msg_num_6
Richard states that one cannot use a Levy token for a specialist card.

That would seem to be in conflict with each other, since it seems odd the token CAN be exchanged for a specialist unit BUT not for a card.

Look at the timing. Replacing Levy Tokens happens before calling the Specialists. Calling Specialist occurs after the Levy Token Replacement. So if you place a Levy Token during the Specilaist phase, when do you expect to replace it with units again? Duh! Very Happy

I see no conflict on this one. Levy tokens are meant to alleviate a random problem you run into - not enough units to cover what's listed on the cards. If you don't fix it, then you are short units on the board and at slight disadvantage. Specialist cards are a deliberate selection process. The only element of luck is if both players play the same or similar cards. But since you have more control over this, you shouldn't be granted a bonus for making a wrong decision. And if you can't fulfill the requirements on your card, it's not the end of the world. In most cases, you stick with the same number of troops anyway.

I am just surprised that a Specialist can be deployed in this manner. I would think it takes away some of the excitement of the Specialist phase. But looking over them again, there are still a few specialist cards that give you more than just placing a new unit type. I think this is probably more of a reaction from the community to get more Specialists in play. But put it in perspective, how many Levy tokens typically get placed? I have 2 sets so i don't have the problem, but I have never had a situation where I had to pull out the 2nd set either.


Also I still think this should be relooked at, I'm not making a big fuss over it since it happens so rarely, basically in RA, and usually with Green tokens (and maybe blue - don't recall).

Just the fact that it definitely diminishes some of the Specialist cards - more so of the Green ones.

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 20:54


Quote:

7) Creatures on landmarks/lairs
Do creatures get another level of boldness while on a landmark or lair ? An example would be a Hill giant on a Rockpile lair hex.
Is the Hill Giant Bold 1 (inheritly bold) or Bold 2 (inherit bold + bold due to being on rockpile) ?

No. This has been stated multiple times. Page 42 of the rulebook: "Creatures do not benefit from a customary Morale boost, when occupying a Landmark." And creature lairs have been "officially" defined as Landmarks with this last round of questions. Which is what the rulebook has always implied since they put Creature Lairs under the Landmark chapter.


This one as well as first one above should be submitted to DoW since it just seems that creature questions/answers seem to get conflict answers and sometimes get changed. I recall while demoing BL about the Hill Giant lair hex (sadly I wish I could remember the particulars) that someone made a pretty good case about it being Bold 2 on the Rockpile lair.

That is all I'm requesting.

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 20:54


Quote:

Cool Summoning and Lore/Command cards
To verify on the Q&A from 12/07/07, it was stated that base dice for the unit is used for summoning. Thus if a lore or command card would cause LESS number of dice to be rolled, it would have no effect, correct?

That is what I understand the ruling to be. I chewed this one over a bit because it went opposite of what I thought. The Melee dice are used as a basic defintiion of the number of dice. They didn't use "battle" dice for one reason that I see. If it isn't a battle, it can't get modified by Lore cards that affect combat dice. i think they also used "melee" as all units have melee even if they are ranged units.

One question that I am now pondering is this: What about units that have variable melee dice? Is it still what a melee would be normally (i.e. Green always rolls 2 dice, Blue always rolls 3 dice). Or is it affected by what else might be going on for that unit. For example, if a ranged green units moves to the Summon circle first, does it roll 1 die (since it was on the move)? Does a Clan Chief at full strength roll 4 dice?

Both of these conditions are battle-type conditions. What are your thoughts on that?


Obviously I didn't have the Scottish Wars till yesterday but I see where you are going since there are units with unique abilities (and I suspect Heroes will introduce some as well!). Thus a probably better question to ask is "For summoning creatures, is the banner color of the unit the BASE dice number to use no matter what OR if the unit has special abilities, is it that?" (or something to that effect - word it however you like).

Thus word the question so any future units can be addressed as well. I know this is all about one creature, but even though we have 3 creatures (and seems like 2 cause most of the grief) you know as well as I that there probably will be another creature that probably requires summoning probably sometime in the future. (No, I have no word of such, but just speculating since it would seem natural)

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 20:54


Quote:

9) Units in a Web
The question from Q&A from 12/07/07 is definitely vague and thus more questions have arisen. The main item of contention it would seem is "unit can inherently ignore some flags". How is that determined and how does one determine the boldness of the web unit ?
a) Can a web unit be supported by other units ?
b) Can a web unit be supported by Goblin Bass Drummers presence ?
c) Can landmarks, ramparts, etc - hexes that make a unit bold - still allow the webbed unit to be bold
d) If a unit is inheritly bold (Dwarfs, Creature and Goblin drummer imbeded with a unit), it would seem that unit still has that type of boldness
even if webbed. Correct?
e) Examples on any item that doesn't seem obvious would be appreciated

Some of the wording on this one is a bit unclear to me. First he says if they can ignore flags before, they can still ignore flags. That implies all types of Bold. But then he makes it sound like only if they inherently ignore flags do they still do so. Which makes it sound like only Dwarves and Knight and not from the other types of support.

a) it would seem so since no reference has been made that it cannot be supported.
b) ditto
c) ditto
d) yes, this was specifically stated
e) that covers it all right: inherent, landmark, support, I guess we only left off Lore cards

This list probably warrants another look and needs to be sent in.


Granted. And if anyone else can think of someway a creature can be bold while in a web, that should be added as well. I think I got them all, but I could be missing some (like "Fearless" lore card - which I guess you could play)

Thanks...

ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 20:54


Quote:

10) General lore clairification :
In regards to the following Q&A : "Q. If a card states that Lore causes hits or some other effect, can you choose to collect it as a Lore token in lieu of the card's effect or must you apply the text effect first? A: No.", is the No answer referring to the fact that one cannot collect lore for ANY of those times or No answer saying you have to apply the text effect's first ?

Thanks
Cab

Good catch. I read it as No, you cannot have the option.


Well helps to have 48+ hours of no sleep, you can see things in a different light. And no, I don't try to do that, just based on my health condition, I sometimes can't get any or no sleep. No, I don't recommend it but alas sometimes one has no options - but I digress.

In regards to the last few replies about Levy tokens and crowded baseline - I just don't see them that often happen (as I mentioned, more so in RA than anything). And if someone can come up with a scenario that happens, it would probably be real rare.
And like someone said, if it is crowded, I guess tough cookies and thus you lose that unit. I think that is probably the best way of dealing with that issue if and when it does happen.

Perhaps we should start another question thread ?!?

Cab

[Updated on: Fri, 11 January 2008 19:53]

      
toddrew
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Re:Q&A with DOW - January 8, 2008 (questions from 12/12/07) Wed, 26 March 2008 06:10
toddrew wrote on Thu, 10 January 2008 03:09

Regardless, I broke my self-imposed restriction of not asking more than three questions in a row on the compendiums and slapped that query up there: Do webbed units receive support (and do they subsequently ignore a flag)?



This came up again in another thread, and it was then noticed that this question has been answered in the Creature Compendium (Point 17 on this page):
Nope, webbed units cannot receive support, and therefore not ignore a flag due to such support.

[Updated on: Wed, 26 March 2008 06:11]

      
    
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