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gheintze
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Moving forward in a positive manner Wed, 13 August 2008 16:54
Over the past few days, there has been a lot of frustration and disappointment by the BattleLore community regarding the announcement of Troll and Country. This is not entirely undeserved considering the lack of communication from DOW this year.

However, I think that it's time that we try to make positive suggestions to DOW and express our opinions in a constructive manner.

Why are we disappointed in the Troll expansion?

1. The price point seems high, but if the map is the same quality as the Breakthru map for M'44 it will be very durable.

2. No cards or tile with the Troll. This needs to be addressed so that the Troll can be used in other scenarios.

This are both valid concerns that hopefully Eric will address next week. We must recognize that it is important for game companies to have new and appropriate games and/or expansions for conventions. But it is impossible a small company to have a "big" expansion 3-4 times a year. Therefore, they are going to need to have smaller expansions and giveaways to build excitement at big events.

What else are we looking for in the future?

1. Heroes Expansion. Since we've already seen some of the figures for this expansion, I have to believe that it is on the way.
2. More creatures. Since the blister packs were rejected by retailers, maybe this is the way they will release creatures -- with a battle map. My only problem with this route is that $18 does seem like alot for one figure. If the tile and cards were thrown in that would be more appropriate.
3. More scenarios. Since they released a scenario book for M'44, I also believe that this is eventually on the way. I'm sure that Richard Borg has a ton of scenarios that haven't been released yet. I would also assume that the campaign world will be developed and possibly included with such a book.

DOW has already released a lot of expansions for BattleLore. Granted they have only scratched the surface, but I'm sure that good things will be coming.

Remember, this sort of negative backlash happened with the Air Pack/carrying case and led to DOW's policy of keeping quiet.

Let's hold tight until we hear from Eric and try to be constructive.

Geoff
      
Roobarb
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Wed, 13 August 2008 17:52
try to be constructive eh
er okay
id like to be kept in the loop if there is problem id like to know about it
id like to know where battellore is going
i am the customer after all

id like to see some proper dice (willing to pay for them)

id like to see a proper creatuer exp with summery cards and hex overlays a box with 4 to 6 sounds about right

id like to see other races mersanary or full blown armys i dont realy mind

id like urban hex overlays with damaged or destroyed buildings on the revese side

id like to see the hero expnshon

id like to see outher lore decks

but most of all

id like to be kept in the loop if there is problem id like to know about it
id like to know where battellore is going
i am the customer after all

hows that Doubtful





      
tibbs2
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Wed, 13 August 2008 19:26
Well. I think the BL game is great. I have all the expansions so far. I won't be buying these epic map expansions but I will continue to keep playing this great game.

The new epic expansion just doesn't sound like DoW was listening to the BL community and I feel like they are just trying to get us to spend a significant chunk of money for a piece of plastic and and a map.

I hope they communicate with us in the future more and if they put out a more significant expansion that has value to me, then I will be buying it.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 August 2008 19:30]

      
dbc-
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Thu, 14 August 2008 00:34
This thread is a good idea! I have been thinking myself about starting a thread like this, but I didn't really know what topic to start.

gheintze wrote on Wed, 13 August 2008 16:54


Why are we disappointed in the Troll expansion?

1. The price point seems high, but if the map is the same quality as the Breakthru map for M'44 it will be very durable.

2. No cards or tile with the Troll. This needs to be addressed so that the Troll can be used in other scenarios.



I would like to add:
3. As a monster, the Troll is a universal "expansion" for the fantasy part of the BattleLore universe. But the map is aimed specifically for people who play in Epic mode.
In other words this is an expansion that tries to sit between two chairs - most people would like to get the Troll, but fewer people will be finding the map useful.

gheintze wrote on Wed, 13 August 2008 16:54


What else are we looking for in the future?

1. Heroes Expansion. Since we've already seen some of the figures for this expansion, I have to believe that it is on the way.
2. More creatures. Since the blister packs were rejected by retailers, maybe this is the way they will release creatures -- with a battle map. My only problem with this route is that $18 does seem like alot for one figure. If the tile and cards were thrown in that would be more appropriate.
3. More scenarios. Since they released a scenario book for M'44, I also believe that this is eventually on the way. I'm sure that Richard Borg has a ton of scenarios that haven't been released yet. I would also assume that the campaign world will be developed and possibly included with such a book.


18$ would still be too much. But is is not the price itself that worries me but the package as a whole, as written in point 3.
I haven't played any pre-made scenarios since Call to Arms came out. But I have no problems paying for a booklet accompanying a monster. That seems only fair, as it caters for the majority of players. Having to pay for another big map, after having bought Epic however, is a whole different story.
      
Stalkingwolf
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Thu, 14 August 2008 01:26
Roobarb wrote on Wed, 13 August 2008 11:52



id like to see some proper dice (willing to pay for them)

id like to see a proper creatuer exp with summery cards and hex overlays a box with 4 to 6 sounds about right

id like to see other races mersanary or full blown armys i dont realy mind

id like urban hex overlays with damaged or destroyed buildings on the revese side

id like to see the hero expnshon

id like to see outher lore decks




Amen to all of those!!! Thats where Battlelore imho should have been at this point.
      
Magic Man
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Thu, 14 August 2008 09:02
Thank you, gheintze, for starting this thread. I agree that we have all been nagative in our responses, and we need some positive input.

However, haven't we all put loads of "What we would like to see" onto this forum over the last six months?

THerefore my positive input is this: I support DoW and love their games. I do wish they would listen to everything their fans are saying - for example, everything they have said does not include a paper map - but I have faith that they pay attention to this board even if they don't always reply.

Forgive our complaining attitude, DoW, but please listen to the hearts of your fans who want to be on your side and want to enjoy your games to the max.

Thanks (in advance) for listening.

Peter.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Thu, 14 August 2008 13:33
hay magic man can you have faith for both of us Very Happy pleeese Laughing
      
céro
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Thu, 14 August 2008 16:41
I'm still waiting for the next Big expansion. I still like the game but I do not like this Map&Figure expansions at all (neither the one for Mem44). Imho they should have introduced it following way:

Hey guys, we're up to show some special stuff at cons, that you hardly will find somewhere else - we thought some of you may like it and may want it, so we made it purchasable for those of you who do not want to wait untill the big expansion comes out.
No one would have blamed the price and everyone had thought: Wow, what a cool service - verykind of you - that's DoW as we like it.

Imho this would have been the way to go. Then, somewhere, the big expansion could have been released. Should be no Problem, as DoW's service usually is very good, that the guys who bought the con-expansion get their creature-cards later on.


      
William Lange
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Thu, 14 August 2008 18:39
I mostly play epic, but there's no way I'd pay to have a preset map. Setting up the terrain takes what? 2 minutes? With CtA starting positions isn't a problem either. Mostly I would want the troll, but for about 20 bucks I think I'll just make a custom troll.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 05:25
i think its a tribute to mr borgs comand & coulers game system
that such passion is evoked by the mishandleing of its production
hope that makes sense Cool

[Updated on: Fri, 15 August 2008 05:26]

      
Matthias_K
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 13:01
This is going to come off as negative, but aren't there already a LOT of threads describing what we want?

I think that the most basic thing we want is communication. As soon as you establish good communication, the list of actual physical 'wants' for the game will surely folllow.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 14:15
Matthias_K wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 06:01

This is going to come off as negative, but aren't there already a LOT of threads describing what we want?

I think that the most basic thing we want is communication. As soon as you establish good communication, the list of actual physical 'wants' for the game will surely folllow.

Bingo.
      
Old Dwarf
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 19:28
ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 08:15

Matthias_K wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 06:01

This is going to come off as negative, but aren't there already a LOT of threads describing what we want?

I think that the most basic thing we want is communication. As soon as you establish good communication, the list of actual physical 'wants' for the game will surely folllow.

Bingo.


BINGO x2

OD
      
Roobarb
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 19:31
Old Dwarf wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 18:28

ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 08:15

Matthias_K wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 06:01

This is going to come off as negative, but aren't there already a LOT of threads describing what we want?

I think that the most basic thing we want is communication. As soon as you establish good communication, the list of actual physical 'wants' for the game will surely folllow.

Bingo.


BINGO x2

OD


BINGO X3
      
germ
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 20:40
Roobarb wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 13:31

Old Dwarf wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 18:28

ColtsFan76 wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 08:15

Matthias_K wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 06:01

This is going to come off as negative, but aren't there already a LOT of threads describing what we want?

I think that the most basic thing we want is communication. As soon as you establish good communication, the list of actual physical 'wants' for the game will surely folllow.

Bingo.


BINGO x2

OD


BINGO X3


Bingo x4
      
Stalkingwolf
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 21:00
Matthias_K wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 07:01

the list of actual physical 'wants' for the game will surely folllow.


Although I agree... that 'list' as you point out has been there all along. Roobarbs list above for example... Those 'wants' have been asked for (and expected really) since the game released. The base game as it is, the creatures with their summary cards and tiles, etc. etc. have all pointed in a direction that the community has wanted from the get go. Which is in part what made the game such a big hit from day one.

Perhaps, and hopefully, DOW will surprise us and make us all happy again. But it just seems at some point along time ago they listened to the retail shops and who knows who else instead of the fan base and changed their direction with the game. Guess we will just have to wait and see.
      
Caboose
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 22:52
Well I definitely agree that communication is the key. I understand DoW's issue of getting bitten in the past for releasing information out before the product was ready and thus getting delayed (with the M44 campaign bag coming to mind).

But like companies in the software industry, even if you mention something will be delayed (and with some reason as to why - not some lame item), most people are receptive to delays if given information/updates on the progress of item. Most people would like a quality item done right than an item out on time but has lots of issues with it.

I know that most of the staff of DoW is busy and thus there are maybe weeks or even a month (October & Essen comes to mind) that between getting prepared for the event and doing their everyday tasks, that there might not be time to communicate to the general public or customers.

In regards to the forum community, I think it is a darn good one and it can answer most of the items (like rule questions, etc) pretty quickly and correct most of the time. With the English language though, what one person is thinking of and what they ask might be 2 different items and doesn't help by typing it out either. But after getting through the confusion, most items have been resolved with none to very little intervention from the DoW staff. Sadly though, when it comes to new items in the works or releases, it is darn right hard for the community to answer those questions since only the DoW crew know it.

During this past week, I have thought of some possible way to resolve this. And after getting information from Eric (or Mark or some DoW representative) in regards to the current situation and get that all straighten out, it might be necessary for DoW to look on how information is getting out to the public.

Here are some of those thoughts on how to resolve :

- On some set day (i.e. like the 1st Monday of the month or something along those lines), post information onto the blog as to what has been happening during the past month as well as what might be happening in the next month. Obviously don't need to get down to the nitty gritty items. But at least people can see what has transpired as well as get information out. The bigger item/issue with this is the fact that there might be some months are SO hectic than others. A way to get around that item is to post a small note saying as to when that month's info might be out.

- Have a Q&A type of phone call in where people can ask Eric, Mark, etc questions about announced upcoming products. Or maybe get at least hints about upcoming products. With limited time for DoW crew, it would be doubtful everyone's question will be asked but if people submitted their questions ahead of time, maybe then the majority of the people's questions will be answered. I did like how we had the FAQ for the Battlelore in the past (and Colt/Brian did a great job of that) but with no releases since last year, hard to do more FAQ if there is no new releases (Also see last item at bottom as well).

- Talk to various community members for a specific product line and ask what might be necessary. Some ideas might be great where some items would look good on paper but just are not that great after some discussion. The key to this item is to make sure initially the community members are thinking by themselves but at some point they need to be involved as a group to weed out some bad ideas or maybe make 2 great ideas into one. Basically a big think tank. People who should be involved should be people who are talking to other fellow players as well as some new people to get some fresh perspective.

- Select some active community members and they would be granted access to some inside DoW forum which indicates where certain items are in regards to getting released and how far down they are in the pipeline to being released. This issue with this is some items might get out that shouldn't have (i.e. might be a game that DoW wanted to get info out at Essen). I think we have some honest members here on the forum that hopefully wouldn't do that (if told not to).

- I know DoW is a international company and most of the beta testing for products have been done in France but maybe open the pool of testers to some more people. These beta testers won't be able to give out any info but at least they would be able to know that something is being released soon - and maybe be able to show even a prototype of the box, etc. The issue with this item is some beta testers rather get the game than test (even happens in testing software), but this can be easily removed by not having them on the next item to test.

- Even though this next item isn't about communication with the Dow and players, I do believe it is important to maybe include it here. Seems there have been more and more typos and/or open items in the rulebooks. Before sending the rulebook to the printers, maybe have some players look through the rulebook and maybe iron out some issues that come to mind. Obviously no one will be able to think of every scenario, but even if cuts down on some, it is at least a few less questions that DoW crew has to answer. And thus they can spend more time doing what they should be doing vs answering questions.
** - And anything else that might fall into this last item that DoW might feel some other folks can do and thus not have to loose valuable time answer questions. If I recall correctly from a seminar, even answering a quick 5 min question actually takes 15 minutes since it takes the mind some time to get back to think about the bigger main issue.

As you can see by the above, most of them require communication. And without communicating, the community doesn't know what is going on. And in regards to BL, it has been a good year since anything new has been released and makes it seems like the product line is "dead" even though that is NOT the intent of DoW.

Remember communication is key!!! It is human nature to get upset if an item is pushed back but it is better to know about it before hand than find out on the day it was suppose to be released. I know DoW folks want quality games and thus if it takes a little time to fix an issue, it is better to let the community know AHEAD of time. I know sometimes the issue is the fact that item got delayed at the docks and thus out of DoW's control - but any information like that sure does help.

As I've mention to others, what won me over for DoW is that fact that the first game I bought (Ticket to Ride) had EXTRA wagon pieces. That showed that someone had thought about the issue of losing wagons. And since that can occur, if it spends less time answering customer service queries of getting more wagons, that less time answering those questions and more time spend on developing (or whatever else the customer service people can do).

I think I speak for most when I say this - Let's right this ship, point it in the right direction and keep the ship moving in the right direction for the coming years!!

Cab
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Fri, 15 August 2008 23:43
Caboose wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 15:52

Here are some of those thoughts on how to resolve :

- On some set day (i.e. like the 1st Monday of the month or something along those lines), post information onto the blog as to what has been happening during the past month as well as what might be happening in the next month. Obviously don't need to get down to the nitty gritty items. But at least people can see what has transpired as well as get information out. The bigger item/issue with this is the fact that there might be some months are SO hectic than others. A way to get around that item is to post a small note saying as to when that month's info might be out.

Thanks Thomas for posting your thoughts on communication. Here is my comments on them! Smile

While I agree regular communication is a must, I don't think it needs to get to the point of holding it to a specific date. One, DOW has proven reluctant to go back to date releases so I don;t see them wanting to do a complete 180 again and get pinned down to dates. Second, I thought they tried periodic release dates with BattleLore and it backfired. That was the now defunct BattleLore Chronicles. And as you pointed out, some months get hectic - or not even the whole month but the first of the month (murphy;s law and all).

What I would suggest is a periodic posting. Inhouse, they could have agoal of every 3 weeks, every 6 weeks, whatever. I think they community as a whole will start asking if the time elapsed gets beyond a reasonable period. If they start getting a lot of questions, then time to gatehr up some tidbits and post. And it needs to be more than just "we are working on it" or "these things take time" which has been the standard response for the online games for, what, 3 years running. Seriously, eitehr you have done SOMEthing or NOthing; just tell uas which.

Quote:

- Have a Q&A type of phone call in where people can ask Eric, Mark, etc questions about announced upcoming products. Or maybe get at least hints about upcoming products. With limited time for DoW crew, it would be doubtful everyone's question will be asked but if people submitted their questions ahead of time, maybe then the majority of the people's questions will be answered. I did like how we had the FAQ for the Battlelore in the past (and Colt/Brian did a great job of that) but with no releases since last year, hard to do more FAQ if there is no new releases (Also see last item at bottom as well).

As you mention, not a lot to ask so no reason to get together a list. I thought the list format worked well. I don't think a phone call would work at all. Too hard to coordinate and then there is no record of it anyway.

What might be better is a periodic chat group with a posting of the transcript afterwards. Bgg has this capability now and it works fairly well.

Quote:

- Talk to various community members for a specific product line and ask what might be necessary. Some ideas might be great where some items would look good on paper but just are not that great after some discussion. The key to this item is to make sure initially the community members are thinking by themselves but at some point they need to be involved as a group to weed out some bad ideas or maybe make 2 great ideas into one. Basically a big think tank. People who should be involved should be people who are talking to other fellow players as well as some new people to get some fresh perspective.

A good idea but in essence that is what we have in the forums now. They just need to be active here. Float one suggestion on the paper maps and they would have got the answer to not waste time and resources on it.

Quote:

- Select some active community members and they would be granted access to some inside DoW forum which indicates where certain items are in regards to getting released and how far down they are in the pipeline to being released. This issue with this is some items might get out that shouldn't have (i.e. might be a game that DoW wanted to get info out at Essen). I think we have some honest members here on the forum that hopefully wouldn't do that (if told not to).

Would possibly work. It needs commitment from both sides. I think this has been attempted int eh past with limited success. The thing you have to be careful of is the criteria for selecting members. If DOW is going to want people that think the same way they do, they aren't any better off. but if they pick people that are too radically off their own ideas, they may hit a stalemate.

Quote:

- I know DoW is a international company and most of the beta testing for products have been done in France but maybe open the pool of testers to some more people. These beta testers won't be able to give out any info but at least they would be able to know that something is being released soon - and maybe be able to show even a prototype of the box, etc. The issue with this item is some beta testers rather get the game than test (even happens in testing software), but this can be easily removed by not having them on the next item to test.

Yep, we have a lot of international members that bring their own perspective. their thoughts should be incorporated as well.

Quote:

- Even though this next item isn't about communication with the Dow and players, I do believe it is important to maybe include it here. Seems there have been more and more typos and/or open items in the rulebooks. Before sending the rulebook to the printers, maybe have some players look through the rulebook and maybe iron out some issues that come to mind. Obviously no one will be able to think of every scenario, but even if cuts down on some, it is at least a few less questions that DoW crew has to answer. And thus they can spend more time doing what they should be doing vs answering questions.

Good suggestion. It is a problem with a lot of game companies though. You have people familiar with the rules review it and they don't realize key concepts are missing. DOW would have to find the right mix of how far thiey would let this extend into the community. Editing is tough. I have done it before and no matter how thorough you think you are, something still comes up.

Quote:

** - And anything else that might fall into this last item that DoW might feel some other folks can do and thus not have to loose valuable time answer questions. If I recall correctly from a seminar, even answering a quick 5 min question actually takes 15 minutes since it takes the mind some time to get back to think about the bigger main issue.

In all honesty, this may have been what set DOW in the current direction. We have a lot of helpful knowledgible members on this forum. If DOW gets comfortable with us answering the questions, they don't feel the need to visit as often and then they lose touch.
      
Caboose
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 08:14
Brian

In no way was I saying these are the answers - but at least it might open the dialogue between customers and DoW. I suspect there might even be BETTER items to do even, since I'm just one person. But if other people suggest items, there might be something better - I'm not saying my items are...but dialogue has to begin somewhere. Again, I'm just one person but would like to get to reply back to some of your items

As for once a month item, I'm not saying to do it EXACTLY once every month but at least have some sort of timetable. Currently we have no timetable - it's whenever. Sure I know there is some allure to not knowing and thus keep some items close to the chest. In regards to BL though, when there hasn't been anything said for some time and then we get the items we did this past week, people might scratch their heads. And in the process, might think that Heroes was released already(which it hasn't) or was has happen to it since it was the presumed to be the next release for BL or in the worst case scenario, Heroes has been killed entirely. Sadly no one knows what fate it has - I would presume it still is on schedule.

As for rulebooks and like, it just seems the quality of them has gone downhill of late. Sure one cannot think of every scenario but if one can read it initially and think of questions, then perhaps there is something missing in the rulebook. Another useful tactic is if you read the rulebook backwards and do the rules make sense and cover items earlier on. If not, then something needs to be addressed and/or explained better in the rulebook. And that is just probably a few tactics - there probably are others. I know a rulebook won't be able to cover every issue (i.e. if someone does Action A and I do Action B, what happens in that scenario, etc) but it should be able to address a good majority of questions. I know BL is pretty complex game since you have interaction with spells and the like but if it is a self contained game like Ticket to Ride card game, it should answer questions as best it can. Sadly for T2R card game, the end game wasn't exactly clear and could have added more info to clear up that ambiguity. Just one example but there are probably others. I'm just suggesting that maybe a 2nd pair of eyes to examine the rules to polish them up a bit (and of course before it goes to the printers!)

And communication also would help the community if the community helped itself as well - namely in regards to AARs for scenarios (be it BL or M44). Even if it is just the score - obviously more info the better. Awfully hard to tell from the current info we do have if a scenario is balanced or not. On the BL side, it seems we have info for the first 10 official scenarios and then the # drops off. And in regards to the official expanion scenarios (17 and up), the #s are just pitiful. Sure I know CtA expansions are hard to comment on, but at least one can enter a few notes if they liked how the layout is or not.
Not trying to pick on anyone person (since even I forget sometimes to enter a battle due to other items going on at the time - like life!) but it sure would be nice to enter the info when one can. That way DoW (or in case of the fan created ones, the author) can see which scenarios are balanced or not since I suspect there maybe are some internal authors who create the scenarios. Sure we can accuse DoW of withholding info, but we the community are just as guilty in that aspect as well. Sorry, but had to get that item off my chest as well - and I know I've been guilty of it as well but if everyone does their part, it helps other people in the community too. And enter as much info as you can for a scenario since maybe some people just can't seem to win a particular scenario - but if they read about a particular tactic that works, it might help a 'newbie' how to win. But enough on that tangent...

Like I mentioned in my first post, the key is communication. As I mentioned above as well, I definitely liked the quality of items from DoW games. Sadly like others here in the community, if the current maps will be made of paper, it just seems DoW went backwards in regards to quality of the games. DoW states that these are meant for "public venues" like cons and demos. If that is the case and new people are seeing this for the FIRST time, wouldn't it be natural for these new customers to wonder about the quality of the other games that DoW makes?? And thus there would seem to be a total disconnect since that is not the case. Since the base BL set is definitely nice and has a double sided battle map and definitely NOT a paper map that would be shown.

I sure hope we the community hear more from Eric and staff in the coming week. I know there are definitely some issues to be addressed and hopefully during that time that maybe the community can suggest some ideas on how to do it. I'm just one person - I know I'm not perfect by any means but if a person doesn't start something, nothing will change. Hopefully this might start some changes.

Cab
      
Old Dwarf
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 15:02
Just some info about whats in the works & how is it coming.
DoW doesn't need to be specific as to date release or
highly detailed just give us something so we know BL
is alive.

Back in the day SPI published a bi-monthly mag
(Game in every Issue Very Happy ) & they always had a works
in progress Section listing what games they were working on
& what progress they were making.In some cases it was
about on the level of"the dog ate my proto rules"
but you knew what was going & how it was coming
good or bad-sometimes you watch a game develop see
the problems & not be suprised when it was canceled.

The point being why can't the customer base know
the subject of the next BL big expansion & a few tid-bits
it keeps interest alive & would avoid the total
shock reaction the Troll/Paper Map has caused.

OD
      
Maimed
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 15:22
Old Dwarf wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 15:02

Just some info about whats in the works & how is it coming.
DoW doesn't need to be specific as to date release or
highly detailed just give us something so we know BL
is alive.

Back in the day SPI published a bi-monthly mag
(Game in every Issue Very Happy ) & they always had a works
.........
OD



Hey hey Old Dwarf, your really are an old Dwarf to rememe the bi-monthly works in progress days of SPI and he monthly, yes monthly new game in each magazine.

Those were the golden waraming days huh?,, but I Do like the simpler games of today though Smile

Cheers
Mike


      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 17:02
Maimed wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 08:22

Hey hey Old Dwarf, your really are an old Dwarf to rememe the bi-monthly works in progress days of SPI and he monthly, yes monthly new game in each magazine.

He's old enough to be Wee Sodjer's father (allegedly)!
      
Old Dwarf
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 19:14
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 11:02

Maimed wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 08:22

Hey hey Old Dwarf, your really are an old Dwarf to rememe the bi-monthly works in progress days of SPI and he monthly, yes monthly new game in each magazine.

He's old enough to be Wee Sodjer's father (allegedly)!




Now thats old Shocked -it would be more like older brother Very Happy

Its sort of an unstated reason I want DoW to get BL back
on track...I mean how much longer have I got Rolling Eyes

OD(A real Senior member)

[Updated on: Sat, 16 August 2008 19:15]

      
germ
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 20:43
Caboose wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 02:14



I sure hope we the community hear more from Eric and staff in the coming week. I know there are definitely some issues to be addressed and hopefully during that time that maybe the community can suggest some ideas on how to do it. I'm just one person - I know I'm not perfect by any means but if a person doesn't start something, nothing will change. Hopefully this might start some changes.

Cab



I'm with you on that. Sucks to be DOW though; If they give out an estimated date for a product release or a glimpse of what they'll be releasing, people get pissed when the date is pushed back or they complain that the new product isn't what they wanted or how they wanted it.

On the other hand, if they don't give any info at all, people get pissed because... well because we have no info at all. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't sorta situation.

My opinion though, is that the first option is better; at least by getting a glimpse of the upcoming product, we can give feedback about the actual product (negative or positive) before it comes out. Of course, people will always complain about deadlines not being met, that's just part of having customers. At least you'll know that when the product does come out, we'll be sure to actually buy it, as people seldom complain about delays for a product they don't want.

Quote:

''...As a result, some of the other BattleLore expansions we had hoped to introduce later in the year (including the Heroes expansion we'd alluded to as a possible shipping candidate for late 2007) began to slip.

This delay highlights the reason we don't like to pre-announce products or discuss our plans ahead of time - it seems like every time we do, delays or changes occur and we come to regret the frustration it causes for all of us...''

- Older post from DOW -



As you can see, frustration isn't avoided by this method.

Quote:

A bit further down the same post:

''...We realize this is not the news you were looking for, but we would rather be upfront about where we stand and the reasons behind this delay.''



This was good enough for me. I encourage you to continue being upfront, but on a more regular basis.

céro wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 10:41

Imho they should have introduced it following way:

Hey guys, we're up to show some special stuff at cons, that you hardly will find somewhere else - we thought some of you may like it and may want it, so we made it purchasable for those of you who do not want to wait untill the big expansion comes out.
No one would have blamed the price and everyone had thought: Wow, what a cool service - verykind of you - that's DoW as we like it.

Imho this would have been the way to go. Then, somewhere, the big expansion could have been released. Should be no Problem, as DoW's service usually is very good, that the guys who bought the con-expansion get their creature-cards later on.




I agree totally that this should have been the correct approach. I've read posts from people who didn't get the chance to nab a Hill Giant and would gladly pay 18$ to get it, paper maps or not. (although the standard reference cards would be much appreciated). Battlelore is still my #1 board game, but I seriously hope that DOW will stick to its original vision for this game:
Quote:

From the Player's guide Foreword:

''...The pages that follow invite you to relive all of this and more, in a time and format compatible with today's life, namely - short playing sessions; a strong online community; an easy-to-learn, yet deeply engaging game system; superlative artwork and game components; and finely tuned game mechanics.''



I fail to see how paper maps could be considered as a ''superlative game component''. Sure, if it comes in the form of a bonus as was the case with the M44 campaign bag, be my guest, but by looking at the epic adventures tab from the Battlelore site, I get the impression that the paper map is the main attraction, whereas all I want is the Troll figure (and reference cards would be nice)

I eagerly await news from DOW, and I do hope they'll be able to calm our disapointment and adjust their approach accordingly! I also hope my post came out as positive and constructive.


      
gheintze
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 22:06
http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment s/w_eric_martin_publishers_cant_win/

This is an interesting read that I wish had been available when I started the thread.

Geoff
      
Roobarb
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sat, 16 August 2008 23:45
gheintze wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 21:06

http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment s/w_eric_martin_publishers_cant_win/

This is an interesting read that I wish had been available when I started the thread.

Geoff


sorry but what a crock
unless the publisher gos out buissness then they lose
otherwise there wining
our money feeds them it clothes them it pays there rent

they obviesly havent noticed the vast majority of pepole
defending there products when it comes to battlelore i have been one of them
(the m44 brit exp is something else)

for one i have no problem with the BL exps up to date
how ever the troll for me is a step to far down the games(sell your soul to satan) worksop
(yes i remember when GW were a nice compaey and not the scum of the earth)styile of doing things
the fact they say the troll exp is the first in a series
fills me with dread to think DOW sre going down this track

if this is the way they are going the id like to know so i can quit battlelore

i dont like chewin george lucas chocolate



[Updated on: Sun, 17 August 2008 00:24]

      
Magic Man
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sun, 17 August 2008 12:51
I like the article, and it mades me think carefully before complaining. I must say, though, that most of the complaints I have read on this forum are not from whingers, but from fans who have also raved about the game. For months, people have been asking for things/information they haven't recieved, or letting DoW know what they like. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE DoW SHOULD HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO.

Is it any wonder that it's finished like this?
      
Dogma79
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sun, 17 August 2008 13:05
Nice article by Eric. But:
The BL fans don't argue about release dates or optical things, they argue about the price for a poster and one figure!
      
dbc-
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sun, 17 August 2008 13:30
While the article does provide some good counter points, is does paint the whole discussion rather black and white.

The Internet is still fairly new, and both publishers and fans still need some time to adapt. The article could be used as a springboard to discuss the flaws and merits of this way of communication. But I find it of little use in the current debate about BattleLore, as it is simply too general in it's views.
      
Old Dwarf
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  Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sun, 17 August 2008 16:58
Talk about not getting it Rolling Eyes

Set up your straw men & beat up on it Crying or Very Sad
I would hope Eric decides to really address the BL issues
rather than play the martyr.

OD
      
germ
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sun, 17 August 2008 20:03
For what it's worth, I think DOW is doing a better job than most publishers, that's for sure. I am confident that news from Eric will help us all get a better perspective of where we're headed with all of this, and I am also confident that in the end, we won't be let down.

Like the post's title says, let's just try to move forward in a positive manner.
      
céro
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sun, 17 August 2008 21:16
I sure hope Eric has some great news and / or explanations. I still think DoW did a great Job, only the last few mont they got somehow redundant - Ticket to Ride up to the North Pole, no really new big games, and now this troll and this truck-expansion for Mem44...
I sure hope it's gonna go up again real soon...
I'd really like to say: WOOOOOOOOOA Shocked Shocked Shocked once again, seeing new stuff from DoW...
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Sun, 17 August 2008 22:46
dbc- wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 06:30

While the article does provide some good counter points, is does paint the whole discussion rather black and white.

The Internet is still fairly new, and both publishers and fans still need some time to adapt. The article could be used as a springboard to discuss the flaws and merits of this way of communication. But I find it of little use in the current debate about BattleLore, as it is simply too general in it's views.


I wasn't entirely impressed with the article as well. I think he took a sample game and tried to find the extreme ends on every single component. Some of those are commone gripes but most I haven't heard.

There is something to be said about those companies that can successfully navigate the gray area in between. DOW is on one end of the scale for no communication to the point of detriment to the company while Valley Games is on the other end. But there are many more that do it "right."

Oh well, just another trying to jump on the bandwagon and take advantage of the publicity.
      
RBorg
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Tue, 19 August 2008 05:35
Caboose wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 16:52


- I know DoW is a international company and most of the beta testing for products have been done in France but maybe open the pool of testers to some more people. These beta testers won't be able to give out any info but at least they would be able to know that something is being released soon - and maybe be able to show even a prototype of the box, etc. The issue with this item is some beta testers rather get the game than test (even happens in testing software), but this can be easily removed by not having them on the next item to test.

Cab


Actually almost all of BattleLore has been conceived and undergoes all sorts of testing in Orlando, Florida Wink

Richard Borg
      
diaper
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Tue, 19 August 2008 16:00
going back to the roots of this thread, "What else are we looking for in the future?"

I´m hoping for more lore-cards. Both in the form of new loremasters with new decks, and in the form of new cards the existing masters.

Specifically i think it would be great if DOW released a special pack of weird and powerful nuke cards.
Say 20 or 30 new really crazy cards that can turn the entire game around when they are played, that you can that you can randomly pick one or two from and mix in the ordinary lore deck before you play.
      
tibbs2
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Tue, 19 August 2008 18:16
diaper wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 09:00

going back to the roots of this thread, "What else are we looking for in the future?"

I´m hoping for more lore-cards. Both in the form of new loremasters with new decks, and in the form of new cards the existing masters.

Specifically i think it would be great if DOW released a special pack of weird and powerful nuke cards.
Say 20 or 30 new really crazy cards that can turn the entire game around when they are played, that you can that you can randomly pick one or two from and mix in the ordinary lore deck before you play.


I'd prefer to keep the game more balanced than include more cards that increase the luck. There are already a few cards that are already quite powerful. Though I'm not opposed to crazy effects as long as it doesn't totally upend the game balance.
      
diaper
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Tue, 19 August 2008 19:45
it would of course be optional to mix more nukes in the deck.

For me the few extremely powerful cards are part of what makes the game great instead of good.

There is nothing that can match the fun of just barely surviving a nukecard and then deliver your own to win the game.

Also the presence of really powerful cards help make the game faster, you have to start hiting on your opponent before he has amassed to much lore and can nuke you...
      
Caboose
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Tue, 19 August 2008 19:50
diaper wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 08:00

going back to the roots of this thread, "What else are we looking for in the future?"

I'm hoping for more lore-cards. Both in the form of new loremasters with new decks, and in the form of new cards the existing masters.

Specifically i think it would be great if DOW released a special pack of weird and powerful nuke cards.
Say 20 or 30 new really crazy cards that can turn the entire game around when they are played, that you can that you can randomly pick one or two from and mix in the ordinary lore deck before you play.


With the release of BL, it sure seemed to give the impression that other lore cards would be released (although subtle if one reads the rules). I would look forward to maybe some lesser powered cards, since there are enough high powered ones as is. With the Warrior basically having very little level based cards, it might be the one of the 4 lore masters that might need some more level based cards. Other than that, the other 3 have quite enough of level based cards as is.

I have to agree with diaper in that fact that lore cards should not affect the game so much as to be the killer spell (namely the 3 cleric spells that people loathe!). Sure tactics should play some part of the game play, but one already has random elements already in the game (i.e. drawing of the section cards plus dice rolling).

What might be nice as a spell card is some sort of card that is random - random in the sense if affects a specific race (human, dwarf,goblin, creature, etc.) and one won't know which it will affect until after casting it. And of course it would affect both sides units, if it is an area type spell. In other words, a spell that might help or hinder a person's side (guess you could call it maybe a hail mary type of spell if one was behind in points).

Since I find it humorous to see how a hill rumble only affects one side's units troops but not the friendly units on those same hills. Likewise, as I mentioned in an earlier thread today, how fireball always affects the unit but never the terrain it's in (namely forest!!)

Another item that might be nice to incorporate into scenarios is the ability to have additional units enter the game in later rounds. And even add the possibility of randomness of when they come into play perhaps (maybe due to the fact that these new units see that maybe their side is winning and wait and/or due to rolling of dice or maybe the scenario has a random secret objective that side has to obtain to get those new recruits - obviously endless other ideas as well). This item shouldn't be hard to do but hasn't been done in many scenarios.

Cab

[Updated on: Tue, 19 August 2008 20:02]

      
Caboose
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Tue, 19 August 2008 20:09
RBorg wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 21:35

Caboose wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 16:52


- I know DoW is a international company and most of the beta testing for products have been done in France but maybe open the pool of testers to some more people. These beta testers won't be able to give out any info but at least they would be able to know that something is being released soon - and maybe be able to show even a prototype of the box, etc. The issue with this item is some beta testers rather get the game than test (even happens in testing software), but this can be easily removed by not having them on the next item to test.

Cab


Actually almost all of BattleLore has been conceived and undergoes all sorts of testing in Orlando, Florida Wink

Richard Borg


Hmm, thought you lived somewhere else - must be thinking of someone else who live in New York.

I do happen to have a brother-in-law in Tampa - and hope both you and him do get out of harm's way in regards to hurricane Fay (or whatever the name of the hurricane is).

Do take care
Cab
      
RBorg
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Re:Moving forward in a positive manner Wed, 20 August 2008 03:41
Caboose wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 14:09


Hmm, thought you lived somewhere else - must be thinking of someone else who live in New York.

I do happen to have a brother-in-law in Tampa - and hope both you and him do get out of harm's way in regards to hurricane Fay (or whatever the name of the hurricane is).

Do take care
Cab


Please feel free to come on over to Orlando when visiting the family in Tampa for some gaming and to get a first hand look at what we are working on at the time.

Richard Borg
      
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