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sam1812
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 03:09
So far, 9 players have nominated scenarios (plus 1 no-preference).

Arnhem Bridge
Bastogne Corridor West
Beda Fomm
Juno Beach
Knightsbridge
Meat Grinder
Mont Mouchet
Moyland Wood
Peleliu Landings OL
Ponyri
Prokhorovka OL
Red Barricades Factory
St. Mere Eglise
Strasbourg
Sugar Loaf & Half Moon
Sword Beach
Taking Ortona
Valkenswaard

Dakmor, JohnnyB, and Liverbirds -- we're still waiting for you.

I don't know how Tank Commander plans to choose the sequence.

On a separate topic, though, he asked if I would poll the group on the question of Air Rules. (Sorry I didn't post this earlier. Crazy week.) Here are the options:

(A) Keep a level playing field with no Air Rules at all.
(B) Air Rules as the default, but if either player is not comfortable, they should play their match with the non-air version, instead.
(C) Use the Air Rules whenever they're specified in the Air Pack version of the scenario.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 August 2008 04:25]

      
Col Hogan
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 03:18
I would vote for number 2, with maybe a few expierienced players agreeing to set up a tutorial for players who dont know the airpack.
      
Col Hogan
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 03:22
Also a somebody should put a message on the Vassal message board so players on there can post their scenario picks.
      
sam1812
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 03:41
Col Hogan wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 21:22

Also a somebody should put a message on the Vassal message board so players on there can post their scenario picks.

Good idea. I'll take care of it.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 03:58
I have no suggestions for scenarios. I really don't have any favorites and would be willing to play just about any of them.

I would also like to play with air rules in place.

However, I strongly encourage that we do not allow individuals to choose before each game. I think it skews too much since this is a ladder where we all are playing all scenarios. I don't see how we can be consistent if we are playing something different.

So I strongly suggest we either go all in with Air Rules or all out and play the original scenarios.
      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 14:17
I think we should always play with air rules.
      
stevens
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 14:47
Where would someone obtain the Airpack module and air rules for Vassal?
      
LtRock
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 14:59
My vote would be for option B, however happy to go with all scenarios with Air Rules if that proves to be the most popular.

I haven't got the air pack myslef but I know you can download the rules from this site (see other posts for link). Only thing is the updated scenarios aren't included in the down load Sad . Does anyone know where these can be obtained?
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 16:40
I thought v7 had the Air Pack scenarios.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 17:41
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 07:40

I thought v7 had the Air Pack scenarios.


It does....well, you need to get the extensions (also on the Vassal Site).

There are a couple of scenarios that need to be fixed. Apparently, they won't let the second player in. I hope to fix those before long...but am trying to decide to make it a minor fix or just do it along with the major upgrade I have planned (ie. for Overlord and Breakthrough).

As for scenarios...
my two picks are...Mont Mouchet & Moyland Woood

Air Rules...in or out, no pref

Suggested sequence of scenarios play - Chronological

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 17:42
Changed my mind - I'll make a suggestion after all. I would like to include 2-player Overlord scenarios.

So I nominate
44A - Prokhorovka and
54A - Peleliu Landings
      
Brummbar44
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 17:50
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 08:42

Changed my mind - I'll make a suggestion after all. I would like to include 2-player Overlord scenarios.

So I nominate
44A - Prokhorovka and
54A - Peleliu Landings


Not that I'm against Overlord scenarios, I just don't know how practical they will be in a F2F session. They will take considerably longer.

Secondly, I don't think they would be consistent with the rest of the ladder scenarios. How could those be comparable to say a 4 medal game?

What would be a neat idea is to periodically play Overlords (much like we do now) but use the ladder to determine command structure.
      
Caboose
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 19:30
I would have to concur with Colt - we should have some consistency in the fact that for each round, everyone should be playing the same scenario with the same rules, etc.

In addition, for being the first ladder tourny, we should go for simplicity and not add Overlord scenarios as this time. That way, if there are issues that arise, they can be dealt with and not have to worry about overlord.

Also, since there is that New M44 Overlord expansion coming out and some folks happen to get them at GenCon. And thus a majority doesn't have them yet. Thus to allow everyone to get their copy as well as introduce anything new (doubtful, but one never knows) into the Vassal modules, I would think that Overlord scenarios should be ruled out for this tourny.

Cab
      
TommieSL
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 19:58
I disagree that we need to ALL play with the same rules - why can't we just agree with our opponent and play what we both want to - with the default that the air rules are out if both can't agree. I say 'Out' as default because we don't want to discourage 'new' players and they are more likely to be unfamiliar with the rules and therefore perhaps greater inclined to want to play without(?)

The reason we don't need consistency across all the games played in a round is we are not affected by the other results, only the result of the game we are playing. If I win as rank#5 player, I will advance up to rank #3 player next round, irrespective of the other results (assuming all ranked players above actually participate), so I cannot really see the argument for consistent rules.

Let's try to remember the overriding function of this ladder, namely, to have fun.

Edit:- Oh, and I agree with the view that 2 player Overlord scenarios would NOT be a good idea in the context of this format, especially with some players expressing concern in finding time to fit 2 games on-line for each round.

[Updated on: Wed, 27 August 2008 20:03]

      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 20:30
We could have a completely separate thing for Overlords. Same thing as the ladder, but instead with 4-player teams. It would need to wait until more Overlord battles come out as opposed to playing just the 7 there currently are, but it would be fun working with the same team every time.
      
LtRock
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 21:56
I agree with the sentiments of TommieSL about both opponents agreeing about Air Rules or not as the case may be prior to each game. As stated the main thing is to have fun and competition at the same time.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 22:35
Do I have the right to nominate 2 scenarios or not?
      
Brummbar44
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 27 August 2008 23:22
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 13:35

Do I have the right to nominate 2 scenarios or not?


Sorry, I've checked with the Ministry of Scenario Nomination and it does in fact appear that your rights have been revoked.


Laughing

All joking aside, what makes you think that you can't pick 2 scenarios?
      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 00:14
(He voted for Overlord Battles)
      
Brummbar44
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 00:29
Zasdert Ultun wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 15:14

(He voted for Overlord Battles)


Ahhhh....right. Ok, well how about 2 scenarios that aren't Overlord?
Rolling Eyes
      
sam1812
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 01:24
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 16:35

Do I have the right to nominate 2 scenarios or not?

We have Russian scenarios, Pacific scenarios, a desert scenario with an extra hex on armor overruns, a Brummbar scenario, and Air Pack -- any of which may be unfamiliar to some people.

I'm not the official arbiter, but I see no reason to discriminate against Overlords here. I do agree, though, that we should avoid scheduling them near the very beginning.

(Note: For what it's worth, the first three multi-player Vassal Overlords have all been completed in 9 or fewer turns.)

[Updated on: Thu, 28 August 2008 01:25]

      
Col Hogan
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 02:40
Wasn't Peleliu 12?
      
Col Hogan
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 02:44
The russian and pacific isn't bad, as there are only about 3 new rules, but the airules will cause very serious problems I would expect. I just remember at the WBC all the questions we had, even from expierienced players who had played woth the air rules before.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 08:49
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 16:24



(Note: For what it's worth, the first three multi-player Vassal Overlords have all been completed in 9 or fewer turns.)


True...but look how long those took! LOL...different story, I know.

I've been thinking about the whole structure thing...I'm not sure why we need any pre-determined structure at all. As Tommie points out, when on a ladder how exactly does it matter?

I think it would be interesting to play an Overlord against a strongly ranked player (or even a skilled one who plays fairly quickly). Wanna play with Air Rules today? Sure, why not?

I understand why we would need to have the same scenario in a tournament but not so much ladder (perhaps I am missing something?). In fact, I think may lead to some of the more memorable game (like in the case of an experienced player taking on the more challenging scenarios when they meet another experienced player....or conversely taking on a familiar scenario that's still new to a newer player).

I think unpredictability could be more fun than a set agenda.

In the case of a dispute over the scenario...make a 5 dice roll, the roll with the most stars, decides.

Would also sure save on having to read all of these posts!
      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 14:24
Each match, the higher ranked player of the two playing could give 2 or 3 scenarios, while the lower of the two decides from the three.

We could also do that on a grander scale, where the current #1 player gives two or three battles and everyone decides with his opponet which of the selected they will do.
      
sam1812
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 15:10
Help me out here, folks.

There are a lot of ways to run a ladder, all valid, and there are a lot of very smart people in this room with valid opinions. Each of these suggestions would result in a good tournament. As TommieSL pointed out, the objective here is for everybody to have fun. Tank Commander stepped forward and decided to organize this. While he's out this week, he asked me to tally up the scenario requests and to poll the gang about Air Rules. When he gets back, he'll read everything, and I trust that what he decides will be fun for everybody, even if it can't be everybody's first choice. Meanwhile, if I lose control of this, he's going to totally put me in a sling the next time I play a match against him!

      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 15:35
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 09:10

Meanwhile, if I lose control of this, he's going to totally put me in a sling the next time I play a match against him!



Lets hope he doesn't break your arm. This way, you can still play Laughing
      
yangtze
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 17:27
I have no preference re. scenarios, and vote airpack option B.

Don Smile
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 23:20
I have played OL on PBEM a few times. It is very different than the lvie OL we played a couple times already. I find the games to be much faster in terms of number of turns though each turn lasts a bit longer. However, it is much shorter than what we experienced with even just 4 or 5 players at once.

For one, you don't have the communication going back and forth on what to do between CinC and FG and between FGs. For another, your visions of the attack is carried out exactly as you planned it. There are no false moves (though still bad ones, of course Wink ) and no having to redo your plans next turn because the wrong units were ordered this time. Third, there is no downtime moving from section to section. You can just blitz through Orders, moves, and attacks. No paatiently waiting for the next FG to get his thoughts straight or come back from teh bathroom or whatever.

What does take longer than a standard games is potentially playing 3 cards at once, resolving 3 x as many units and drawing new cards. But just think of it as taking 3 turns at a time and it really isn't that bad.

I think exposing people to Overlord is a good thing. Especially since the "fear" of it seems to be based on "misconception" of how it plays out. So I would like to stand by my nomination of these two scenarios.
      
TommieSL
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 23:27
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 00:24

I'm not the official arbiter, but I see no reason to discriminate against Overlords here. I do agree, though, that we should avoid scheduling them near the very beginning.

(Note: For what it's worth, the first three multi-player Vassal Overlords have all been completed in 9 or fewer turns.)


Sam,

Nothing against Overlord scenarios per se and far from trying to 'discriminate' more just trying to apply some practical common-sense. They do take much longer than the 'normal' 2 player format when playing. In my experience they can take anything up to twice as long to play. Add in an element of competitive (thoughtful) play and the time will be a definite barrier to some, in my opinion.
Also, you can't really make meaningful comparisons to the previous multi-player Vassal overlord games because they, in the main, involved players just having one section to think about, in a 2 player game you have ALL the roles. Thats the C-i-C and all 3 Field Generals with a potential 3 cards played per turn and all the surrounding activities.
I think you'd be struggling to finish these in one siting, whilst this isn't necessarily a problem in itself my experiences of running these ladder tournaments (and any virtual event of this type for that matter) is that it will start to lose impetus and player interest if we regularly have participants struggling to complete their games by the deadlines.
Why make this any more difficult than necessary? - that's all I'm saying.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 August 2008 23:34]

      
stevens
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 28 August 2008 23:41
Playing is more fun than talking about playing.

I think simple is best for the most participants. If we really enjoy this process, some of us, myself particularly. might then be interested in the longer play of an Overlord scenario. But I think the fellow who has gone to all the trouble to kick the ball onto the field gets to make the call. So TC have at it!
      
TommieSL
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Fri, 29 August 2008 00:41
My 2 scenario choices are:-

#29 (25S) Western Front - Bastogne Corridor West, Dec 30, 1944
#31 (23S) Western Front - Strasbourg, Jan 7-11,1945
      
Col Hogan
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Fri, 29 August 2008 02:47
I think that we ought to just start with some one board scenarios, and instead of thinking about whether we want to do overlords just concentrate on getting the ladder up and running. Even if we decide that we want to do overlords, my guess is that it won't be in the near future.
      
Col Hogan
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Fri, 29 August 2008 02:50
It would also be important to give players a pick of two scenarios, because if two players have already played each other on both sides, it might be fun to do it again, but I a;ways like getting to play lots of different scenarios.

I understand people wanting the same scenario, but this isnt a tournament with a prize at the end, and as you are playing both sides, the better player(or luckier) will usually come out the victor.
      
tank commander
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Fri, 29 August 2008 14:57
Hi all, I am back - from the depths of Ausable Chasm to the summit of Whiteface Mountain to the shores of Lake Champlain.

A fun little trip.

Anyway, I will look over things today and choose a scenario for the first round. I will then line up the other scenarios. I think it would be wise to skip the Air Rules (or at least the option of playing w/ them) in the first round. That way it would give all of us time to look them over and iron out any concerns / issues that crop up. Col Hogan mentioned the problems that occurred during our Mem 44 tourney but some of these were due to the rulings that the GM made. Some of these were incorrect.

I think the OL scenarios are fine. If needed, each game can be spread out over a couple of sessions (a log file would need to be saved). Also, extra time could be allowed for an OL scenario round. However, I will save these until we have played a number of rounds (perhaps 3 or so) before we play one of those.

Lastly, I will add my two scenarios to the playing list and vote on the Air Rules / no Air rules / players choice Air Rules.

Also, thanks to all who have posted here and are about to play on the ladder. Thanks for all the input.

A special thank you to Sam for carrying on in my absence.



      
tank commander
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Round # 1 - St Mere Eglise Fri, 29 August 2008 19:52
Hi all.

The scenario for Round # 1 will be St Mere Eglise. As I mentioned above, this will be played without the Air Rules.

This will give us all an additional month to go over them before they go into use in Round # 2.

As requested, I will open another thread to lay out how the ladder works and ideas for the first round.

I will label the thread "Mem 44 ladder - Rd 1", so all players should go there for additional details.
      
Nightrain
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 21 January 2009 10:03
Hi all
sorry for digging up old thread
i just realized i've subscribed to this forum but never been active
i'm Steve at the ladder, and glad to meet all M44 fans here
just wondering, how to put up an avatar and edit the signature ?
can't find it in the profile
thanks
      
sam1812
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Wed, 21 January 2009 14:06
Hi, Steve --

Welcome to the Forum.

To create an avatar and signature, click "My Account" in the upper right corner of the screen. The avatar is under Public Information, and the signature is under Preferences.

And again, great game yesterday!

Sam E.
      
Nightrain
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Thu, 22 January 2009 02:42
Hi Sam, yeah great game

i've checked em out but can't find any, maybe there's a number-of-posts restriction before i can add any avatar or signature, but nevermind, i try to be more active in this forum Smile
      
tank commander
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Re:A second call for a Mem 44 ladder Mon, 03 August 2009 03:26
Hi all.

It is hard to believe that the ladder is still going strong after nearly a year. With nine rounds completed (nearly 200 games) and the tenth underway.

We have had some players come and go over that time period, but a good deal of the ones at the start are still here.

Although it has been a bit of work for me to run things, I have had a blast doing so. All the players have been great to work with and play against. I also got a bit of glory along the way as I made it to the top, won and stayed there for another round.

So look upon this as my nearly yearly report and an invitation to any players out there would would like to join in - any takers?

tank commander - aka John S. - GM Mem 44 King of the Hill Ladder
      
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