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Henry Pelham
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Snipers and Jungles Sat, 28 January 2012 21:55
Earlier today, (on sdnative's "The Lighthouse") I moved a sniper two hexes into a jungle. He was not able to attack, though an enemy was in range. Is that right? My understanding was that snipers could move (even two hexes) onto any terrain and attack.
      
stevens
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sat, 28 January 2012 22:06
Sounds like you have two opposing rules.

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_troop_10.jpg

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_57.jpg

I agree with you that the SNIPER battling on any terrain on entry should trump the Only Battle if entering from adjacent hex rule, but the TERRAIN TILE may not have this exception in it's programming.

It could be argued that you are dealing with... "a terrain movement restriction" which the sniper might still have to obey.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 January 2012 22:07]

      
sdnative
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 02:57
Yes Henry it seems the programers have not added the exception for the sniper entering jungle from more than 1 hex.
I did submit a bug report to DoW a few days ago about this.
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 11:31
stevens wrote on Sat, 28 January 2012 22:06

Sounds like you have two opposing rules.

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_troop_10.jpg

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_57.jpg


It could be argued that you are dealing with... "a terrain movement restriction" which the sniper might still have to obey.


I think that is the reason why.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 12:20
Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 14:31

stevens wrote on Sat, 28 January 2012 22:06


It could be argued that you are dealing with... "a terrain movement restriction" which the sniper might still have to obey.


I think that is the reason why.


To be honest, I don't think any of the 'powers-that-be' have thought through this rule question because there haven't been any Official scenarios where these have interacted...so for now there is no official word on which rule would prevail! Cool

My initial thought is that the Snipers should be allowed to move into the terrain and still battle. The reason for this, is because they can move into hedgerows (a much more restrictive terrain) and battle, so they should also be able to move into Jungle and battle. But that's not official...I'll have to look into it further and ask Richard what he thinks. Cool
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 12:27
I think it's the same issue with the Imperial Japanese Rules. Normally they can move 2 hex to battle in close assault, but I don't think they can move 2 hex into a jungle and then close assault.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 13:50
Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 15:27

I think it's the same issue with the Imperial Japanese Rules. Normally they can move 2 hex to battle in close assault, but I don't think they can move 2 hex into a jungle and then close assault.


Respectfully, I don't agree that it is the same. If Imperial Japanese units move two hexes into a town hex, they can't normally battle. If Snipers move two hexes into a town they can battle without any trouble... Razz
      
Erik Uitdebroeck
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 14:42
You got me there, but the discussion is about moving into jungle.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 14:50
Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 17:42

You got me there, but the discussion is about moving into jungle.


Not only moving into Jungle...Snipers moving into Jungle! Razz

There's no question that most units cannot battle if they move two hexes and end in Jungle. The rules for Jungle hexes are very clear on this point. The confusion comes when we have a unit like the French Resistance (not likely to see them in the Pacific unless someone wants to represent resistance troops with them) or Snipers who can move into terrain and battle. Smile
      
Henry Pelham
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sun, 29 January 2012 18:03
I'm with rasmussen81 on this. Snipers also move two into forest, a more common and more restrictive terrain than jungles, so it stands to reason that they should be able to move two into jungles and battle. I am glad I am not the only one who noticed this.
      
Nygaard
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Mon, 30 January 2012 00:07
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 14:50

Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 17:42

You got me there, but the discussion is about moving into jungle.


Not only moving into Jungle...Snipers moving into Jungle! Razz

There's no question that most units cannot battle if they move two hexes and end in Jungle. The rules for Jungle hexes are very clear on this point. The confusion comes when we have a unit like the French Resistance (not likely to see them in the Pacific unless someone wants to represent resistance troops with them) or Snipers who can move into terrain and battle. Smile

(My emphasis)

I did actually plan to use French Resistance units for the Chinese guerrillas... And the problem with jungles will come up here for sure - when they are ordered with Infantry Assault. Hm... maybe I should test it soon.

      
sdnative
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Mon, 30 January 2012 01:17
Nygaard wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 15:07

rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 14:50

Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 17:42

You got me there, but the discussion is about moving into jungle.


Not only moving into Jungle...Snipers moving into Jungle! Razz

There's no question that most units cannot battle if they move two hexes and end in Jungle. The rules for Jungle hexes are very clear on this point. The confusion comes when we have a unit like the French Resistance (not likely to see them in the Pacific unless someone wants to represent resistance troops with them) or Snipers who can move into terrain and battle. Smile

(My emphasis)

I did actually plan to use French Resistance units for the Chinese guerrillas... And the problem with jungles will come up here for sure - when they are ordered with Infantry Assault. Hm... maybe I should test it soon.




Nygaard my thoughts as well, I was thinking about a scenario involving Filipino Guerrillas vs Japanese.

[Updated on: Mon, 30 January 2012 01:17]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Mon, 30 January 2012 03:06
Nygaard wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 03:07

rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 14:50

Erik Uitdebroeck wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 17:42

You got me there, but the discussion is about moving into jungle.


Not only moving into Jungle...Snipers moving into Jungle! Razz

There's no question that most units cannot battle if they move two hexes and end in Jungle. The rules for Jungle hexes are very clear on this point. The confusion comes when we have a unit like the French Resistance (not likely to see them in the Pacific unless someone wants to represent resistance troops with them) or Snipers who can move into terrain and battle. Smile

(My emphasis)

I did actually plan to use French Resistance units for the Chinese guerrillas... And the problem with jungles will come up here for sure - when they are ordered with Infantry Assault. Hm... maybe I should test it soon.


It'll look kind of funny to see French Resistance troops fighting the Japs! Laughing But that would be the only way to represent Resistance Troops Online, so it make sense. I wonder what will happen when it comes to Jungle interaction...my guess is the Jungle won't let you move in and battle from two hexes away. I'm betting that no 'exceptions' have been programed in yet.

Let us know when you test it! Cool
      
JFKoski
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 15 March 2012 06:44
Rule: "...but must still obey Terrain Movement restrictions."

I'm assuming this means:
1. various: "Unit moving in must stop",
2. Hedgerows: "To enter or Take Ground, unit must start its move from adjacent hex",
3. Jungles: "Unit moving in may battle if unit starts its move in adjacent hex".

If so, then Online game is working correctly.

Snipers are similar to French Resistance. French Resistance could not move into Hedgerows from 2 away, and I'll have to test what happens when they move 2 into jungles with Infantry Assault.
[edit: see answer below.]

[Updated on: Thu, 16 August 2012 06:05]

      
tank commander
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 15 March 2012 11:11
The rule on battling for jungles is a combo movement / battle restriction.

From the Sniper rule -- page 5 Eastern Front:

"May battle when he moves onto a terrain type (woods, town, ect) where standard infantry could not battle...."

Certainly comparing jungle hexes and terrain types that prohibit battling upon entry is an "apples and oranges" thing.

Another thing for consideration:

From the FAQ when a unit is ordered by BEL:

Q. When ordered by the Behind Enemy Lines card, if an Infantry unit moves three hexes into a Jungle hex, may it battle?
A. No. Units must start in a hex adjacent to a Jungle hex to move onto the Jungle hex and still battle.

I would lean towards NOT allowing snipers to battle after moving into a jungle hex unless they only moved 1 hex.
      
Turboheizer
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 15 March 2012 15:47
Quote:

It'll look kind of funny to see French Resistance troops fighting the Japs! Laughing But that would be the only way to represent Resistance Troops Online, so it make sense.


In my opinion, the French badge should be separated from the Partisan / Guerilla capabilities, so that both Non-French Partisans and French Non-Resistance units (like 2ème Division blindée etc.) become available.
      
sdnative
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 15 March 2012 16:00
"Jungle Fighters" ignore terrain restrictions. So does the Sniper.
      
JJs Juggernaut
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 15 March 2012 17:02
tank commander wrote on Thu, 15 March 2012 06:11

The rule on battling for jungles is a combo movement / battle restriction.

From the Sniper rule -- page 5 Eastern Front:

"May battle when he moves onto a terrain type (woods, town, ect) where standard infantry could not battle...."

Certainly comparing jungle hexes and terrain types that prohibit battling upon entry is an "apples and oranges" thing.

Another thing for consideration:

From the FAQ when a unit is ordered by BEL:

Q. When ordered by the Behind Enemy Lines card, if an Infantry unit moves three hexes into a Jungle hex, may it battle?
A. No. Units must start in a hex adjacent to a Jungle hex to move onto the Jungle hex and still battle.

I would lean towards NOT allowing snipers to battle after moving into a jungle hex unless they only moved 1 hex.


Regarding your quote about BEL and jungle. Infanty also can't move into forests and battle with BEL, so it is the exact same in both jungles and forests for normal infantry, so according to the rule you stated regarding snipers ("May battle when he moves onto a terrain type (woods, town, ect) where standard infantry could not battle...."), snipers should be allowed to battle on movement into a jungle.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 March 2012 17:03]

      
tank commander
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 15 March 2012 21:19
JJs Juggernaut wrote on Thu, 15 March 2012 12:02

tank commander wrote on Thu, 15 March 2012 06:11

The rule on battling for jungles is a combo movement / battle restriction.

From the Sniper rule -- page 5 Eastern Front:

"May battle when he moves onto a terrain type (woods, town, ect) where standard infantry could not battle...."

Certainly comparing jungle hexes and terrain types that prohibit battling upon entry is an "apples and oranges" thing.

Another thing for consideration:

From the FAQ when a unit is ordered by BEL:

Q. When ordered by the Behind Enemy Lines card, if an Infantry unit moves three hexes into a Jungle hex, may it battle?
A. No. Units must start in a hex adjacent to a Jungle hex to move onto the Jungle hex and still battle.

I would lean towards NOT allowing snipers to battle after moving into a jungle hex unless they only moved 1 hex.


Regarding your quote about BEL and jungle. Infanty also can't move into forests and battle with BEL, so it is the exact same in both jungles and forests for normal infantry, so according to the rule you stated regarding snipers ("May battle when he moves onto a terrain type (woods, town, ect) where standard infantry could not battle...."), snipers should be allowed to battle on movement into a jungle.



What I was to get across there with the FAQ quote was that the BEL card did not overide the adjacent jungle rule. It remains to be seen if the sniper move 2 and terrain battle special ability overides that same jungle restriction.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 March 2012 21:40]

      
tank commander
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 15 March 2012 21:39
sdnative wrote on Thu, 15 March 2012 11:00

"Jungle Fighters" ignore terrain restrictions. So does the Sniper.



Not true - jungle fighters may move through jungle hexes.

Snipers do have to obey terrain movement restrictions.
      
sdnative
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Fri, 16 March 2012 02:31
Was wondering how do we get an "OFFICIAL" answer to our questions..We can debate them over and over but it sure would be nice to have someone from DoW give us the answer.
      
Phread
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Fri, 16 March 2012 02:49
The good people of DoW do read/monitor these forums. When they feel the time is right they may comment.

Snipers can move into town and forest hexes and battle, therefore IMHO they should be able to move 2 hexes into forest and battle.
      
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Fri, 16 March 2012 14:16
http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_troop_9.jpg

While we are on the topic, we might as well ask if Ski Troops may enter a jungle OR hedgerow hex and still battle?

Laughing Cool

Of course these troops are using water skis in the jungle!

[Updated on: Fri, 16 March 2012 14:18]

      
tank commander
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Fri, 16 March 2012 15:41
sdnative wrote on Thu, 15 March 2012 21:31

Was wondering how do we get an "OFFICIAL" answer to our questions..We can debate them over and over but it sure would be nice to have someone from DoW give us the answer.


Often, after a lenghty debate, someone from DOW (sometimes this is Mr Borg himself) will make a ruling. I suspect that as this discussion is occuring on an Online forum, it may fly under the radar.

To that end I have posted this question on the FAQ thread.
      
TheAmra
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Fri, 16 March 2012 15:51
My problem is that sniper rules sometimes override other rules and sometimes other rules override sniper's one.

I want to say that there is not a standard pattern on witch rules come first against other(terrain,unit or general rules) when conflicts occur.

Even worse sniper rules override SOME terrain rules.
(I can see no reason why i can move 2 and fight from a forest and not do the same with jungles based on their rule cards.Forest and jungle BOTH have movement restriction so?)

So what the rule about resolving rules is?Or there is not, and we are at the mercy of a confused algorithm?

Regards
TheAmra

[Updated on: Fri, 16 March 2012 15:59]

      
stevens
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Fri, 16 March 2012 16:14
tank commander wrote on Fri, 16 March 2012 10:41

sdnative wrote on Thu, 15 March 2012 21:31

Was wondering how do we get an "OFFICIAL" answer to our questions..We can debate them over and over but it sure would be nice to have someone from DoW give us the answer.


Often, after a lenghty debate, someone from DOW (sometimes this is Mr Borg himself) will make a ruling. I suspect that as this discussion is occuring on an Online forum, it may fly under the radar.

To that end I have posted this question on the FAQ thread.



Thanks TC!
      
JFKoski
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Re:Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops in Jungles/Hedgerows Sat, 17 March 2012 06:00
http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_nation_1.jpg

Well, my hypothesis is shot. With the Online game I used Infantry Assault to move French Resistance into jungle. They were allowed to battle. So something is wrong. Either the terrain movement rule (jungles, hedgerows) should dominate or the unit rule (Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops) should override.

PS: I tested Ski Troops with Jungle & Hedgerows. The terrain rule was dominant.

PPS: There's a glitch; Ski Troops should not move 4 in Infantry Assault. I had this option during Suomussalmi, went ahead and used it, then reported it after checking the FAQ.

[Updated on: Sat, 17 March 2012 06:06]

      
sdnative
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Re:Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops in Jungles/Hedgerows Sat, 17 March 2012 06:13
JFKoski wrote on Fri, 16 March 2012 22:00

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_nation_1.jpg

Well, my hypothesis is shot. With the Online game I used Infantry Assault to move French Resistance into jungle. They were allowed to battle. So something is wrong. Either the terrain movement rule (jungles, hedgerows) should dominate or the unit rule (Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops) should override.

PS: I tested Ski Troops with Jungle & Hedgerows. The terrain rule was dominant.

PPS: There's a glitch; Ski Troops should not move 4 in Infantry Assault. I had this option during Suomussalmi, went ahead and used it, then reported it after checking the FAQ.


French Resistance in the Pacific are considered Jungle Fighters and should be able to assault into Jungle and still battle.
      
Nightrain
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sat, 17 March 2012 12:43
i believe the correct answer is that Sniper overrides the rule and should be able to move 2 hexes away into Jungle and still battle because he may battle in any terrain, so if he can battle in a city where all units can't battle, i don't see why not in jungle.

Jungle provides a benefit if battling from adjacent otherwise it's like a simple forest, so if sniper can move and battle in a forest where the terrain has more restriction than Jungle, it's ridiculous for not be able to battle in a jungle.

So it's clearly a bug of the game Smile
      
TheAmra
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Sat, 17 March 2012 15:06
Nightrain wrote on Sat, 17 March 2012 13:43

i believe the correct answer is that Sniper overrides the rule and should be able to move 2 hexes away into Jungle and still battle because he may battle in any terrain, so if he can battle in a city where all units can't battle, i don't see why not in jungle.

Jungle provides a benefit if battling from adjacent otherwise it's like a simple forest, so if sniper can move and battle in a forest where the terrain has more restriction than Jungle, it's ridiculous for not be able to battle in a jungle.

So it's clearly a bug of the game Smile



Couldn't agree more,as it is we have two different ways of execution for 1 rule(movement restrictions rule), which is bug bug bug!

Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

[Updated on: Sat, 17 March 2012 15:12]

      
Antoine
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 26 April 2012 10:04
The question was directly asked to Richard.

A Sniper is ordered and move like a Special Forces Infantry unit. Special Forces Infantry units cannot move 2 hexes and battle when entering a Jungle hex.

So a Sniper cannot move 2 hexes and battle if entering a Jungle hex.

I saw that some players do not agree with this rule ; well sorry guys, but whether you like it or not, it is an official rule.

      
tank commander
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Re:Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops in Jungles/Hedgerows Thu, 26 April 2012 12:00
sdnative wrote on Sat, 17 March 2012 01:13

JFKoski wrote on Fri, 16 March 2012 22:00

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_nation_1.jpg

Well, my hypothesis is shot. With the Online game I used Infantry Assault to move French Resistance into jungle. They were allowed to battle. So something is wrong. Either the terrain movement rule (jungles, hedgerows) should dominate or the unit rule (Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops) should override.

PS: I tested Ski Troops with Jungle & Hedgerows. The terrain rule was dominant.

PPS: There's a glitch; Ski Troops should not move 4 in Infantry Assault. I had this option during Suomussalmi, went ahead and used it, then reported it after checking the FAQ.


French Resistance in the Pacific are considered Jungle Fighters and should be able to assault into Jungle and still battle.



Huh - how do you conclude that those two units types (one of which is relatively new) are exactly alike? Just because someone placed FR in an unofficial scenario of their own making and stated they act like jungle fighters? What are FR units doing in a Pacific scenario anyway? What was the scenario author trying to model by including them in his scenario?

Sorry, but I have to ask these questions as your post may confuse some who read it.

The fact remains that officially FR and JF units are distinctly different units.

[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 12:01]

      
stevens
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Re:Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops in Jungles/Hedgerows Thu, 26 April 2012 15:45
tank commander wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 06:00

sdnative wrote on Sat, 17 March 2012 01:13

JFKoski wrote on Fri, 16 March 2012 22:00

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_nation_1.jpg

Well, my hypothesis is shot. With the Online game I used Infantry Assault to move French Resistance into jungle. They were allowed to battle. So something is wrong. Either the terrain movement rule (jungles, hedgerows) should dominate or the unit rule (Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops) should override.

PS: I tested Ski Troops with Jungle & Hedgerows. The terrain rule was dominant.

PPS: There's a glitch; Ski Troops should not move 4 in Infantry Assault. I had this option during Suomussalmi, went ahead and used it, then reported it after checking the FAQ.


Laughing Laughing

French Resistance in the Pacific are considered Jungle Fighters and should be able to assault into Jungle and still battle.



Huh - how do you conclude that those two units types (one of which is relatively new) are exactly alike? Just because someone placed FR in an unofficial scenario of their own making and stated they act like jungle fighters? What are FR units doing in a Pacific scenario anyway? What was the scenario author trying to model by including them in his scenario?

Sorry, but I have to ask these questions as your post may confuse some who read it.

The fact remains that officially FR and JF units are distinctly different units.




In Asia and the Pacific, the French South Pacific colonies of New Caledonia, French Polynesia and the New Hebrides joined the Free French.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLSxxt3xEAsQXiKPvsLupqMX2117MzDet3jzCPlt14Rg2vald_
      
sdnative
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Re:Snipers and Jungles Thu, 26 April 2012 15:46
My comment was for the particular scenario, the author was trying to replicate Gorilla fighters in the pacific but as of now he could only choose FR due to the online game limitations. You are correct that the rule for Jungle Fighters are different than FR.
Hope I did not confuse anyone except myself Confused

[Updated on: Thu, 26 April 2012 17:40]

      
sdnative
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Re:Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops in Jungles/Hedgerows Thu, 26 April 2012 15:49
stevens wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 06:45

tank commander wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 06:00

sdnative wrote on Sat, 17 March 2012 01:13

JFKoski wrote on Fri, 16 March 2012 22:00

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_nation_1.jpg

Well, my hypothesis is shot. With the Online game I used Infantry Assault to move French Resistance into jungle. They were allowed to battle. So something is wrong. Either the terrain movement rule (jungles, hedgerows) should dominate or the unit rule (Snipers/French Resistance/Ski Troops) should override.

PS: I tested Ski Troops with Jungle & Hedgerows. The terrain rule was dominant.

PPS: There's a glitch; Ski Troops should not move 4 in Infantry Assault. I had this option during Suomussalmi, went ahead and used it, then reported it after checking the FAQ.


Laughing Laughing

French Resistance in the Pacific are considered Jungle Fighters and should be able to assault into Jungle and still battle.



Huh - how do you conclude that those two units types (one of which is relatively new) are exactly alike? Just because someone placed FR in an unofficial scenario of their own making and stated they act like jungle fighters? What are FR units doing in a Pacific scenario anyway? What was the scenario author trying to model by including them in his scenario?

Sorry, but I have to ask these questions as your post may confuse some who read it.

The fact remains that officially FR and JF units are distinctly different units.




In Asia and the Pacific, the French South Pacific colonies of New Caledonia, French Polynesia and the New Hebrides joined the Free French.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLSxxt3xEAsQXiKPvsLupqMX2117MzDet3jzCPlt14Rg2vald_


Good find Stevens!
Smile
      
    
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