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Zomby Goast
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Barbarians Question Sat, 24 March 2012 05:03
I have a question regarding the racial power of the Barbarians from the Be Not Afraid... expansion. The rules say that if you fail their final conquest roll, they cannot redeploy the excess tokens. However, let's say you have one token left after conquests but before your die roll. Can you eschew the die roll and place the token on one of your occupied regions or does the Barbarian power also prevent this?
      
Brf123
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Re:Barbarians Question Sun, 25 March 2012 20:27
The rules specifically say: "Your Barbarians cannot redeploy their troops at the end of each turn."
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 24 April 2012 11:45
You can't put them down in the redeployment. But, if you want, you can leave extras in the last space as part of the attack on that space. Requires more thinking ahead.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 24 April 2012 12:57
AK_Aramis wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 13:45

You can't put them down in the redeployment. But, if you want, you can leave extras in the last space as part of the attack on that space. Requires more thinking ahead.


Actually, I don't think that's allowed. You can only use the number of tokens it took to conquer the land...so you would be left with tokens in your hand. The only way to end up with no tokens in your hand when playing the Barbarians would be to pick a region that requires the exact number you have or roll a successful reinforcement roll.
      
Wiedeman
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 19 June 2012 00:47
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 05:57

AK_Aramis wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 13:45

You can't put them down in the redeployment. But, if you want, you can leave extras in the last space as part of the attack on that space. Requires more thinking ahead.


Actually, I don't think that's allowed. You can only use the number of tokens it took to conquer the land...so you would be left with tokens in your hand. The only way to end up with no tokens in your hand when playing the Barbarians would be to pick a region that requires the exact number you have or roll a successful reinforcement roll.


I see no stipulation in the rules requiring you to conquer land with only the bare minimum necessary to take it. If I want to conquer a region that only requires 2 but decide to take in 6, there is nothing in the rules that says I cannot do this.

Therefore, the appropriate thing for the Barbarian player to do with a single Race token he does not want to gamble with would be to pre-commit it to another conquest in excess of the necessary forces to conquer that region.

The key to the Barbarian race is that they only use multiple tokens to defend regions they most recently conquered. They leave no "extra" troops behind in "old" territory. Therefore, depending on the situation, you may want to abandon an old "vulnerable" territory with one Barbarian in it to have the one extra troop necessary to conquer a new territory that is better defended or gives you a Special Ability bonus.

Small World Rules p. 4

> Conquering a Region

To conquer a Region, a player must have available to deploy: 2 Race tokens + 1 additional Race token for each Encampment, Fortress, Mountain, or Troll's Lair marker + 1 additional Race token for each Lost Tribe or other player's Race token already present in the region. Seas and Lakes cannot usually be conquered.

Upon conquering a Region, the player must deploy the Race tokens he used to conquer this Region inside its borders on the map. These tokens must remain in this Region until the player reorganizes his troops at the end of this turn (see Troop Redeployment, p. 5).

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 19 June 2012 05:13
Try playing the iPad version, which is "Official" by way of being designed by DoW. In that game you can never use more than the required number of tokens to conquer a region.

You're welcome to play however you want at home, but the official rules are that you must only use the tokens it would take to conquer the region. Cool
      
Wiedeman
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 19 June 2012 06:36
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 22:13

Try playing the iPad version, which is "Official" by way of being designed by DoW. In that game you can never use more than the required number of tokens to conquer a region.

You're welcome to play however you want at home, but the official rules are that you must only use the tokens it would take to conquer the region. Cool


1) Where does it say that in the rules? It does not. I beg you to show me otherwise.

2) The iPad app does not include Barbarians, so choosing the number of race tokens to attack with on a particular attack is irrelevant since all races can always redeploy. Therefore, it is no wonder that particular functionality was not programmed in - it was unnecessary.

I guarantee you that if they add Barbarians to the iPad app that you will be able to select how many you want to send on each conquest.

[Updated on: Tue, 19 June 2012 06:41]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 19 June 2012 09:40
MrZach wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 08:36

rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 22:13

Try playing the iPad version, which is "Official" by way of being designed by DoW. In that game you can never use more than the required number of tokens to conquer a region.

You're welcome to play however you want at home, but the official rules are that you must only use the tokens it would take to conquer the region. Cool


1) Where does it say that in the rules? It does not. I beg you to show me otherwise.

2) The iPad app does not include Barbarians, so choosing the number of race tokens to attack with on a particular attack is irrelevant since all races can always redeploy. Therefore, it is no wonder that particular functionality was not programmed in - it was unnecessary.

I guarantee you that if they add Barbarians to the iPad app that you will be able to select how many you want to send on each conquest.


Interesting guarantee... Rolling Eyes For someone who isn't the game designer, this might be a bit of an overstatement.

I thought this was something in the FAQ that was already covered, but after looking for it I don't see anything. Maybe it'll need to be something we get official clarification on because I am just as sure that you can't attack with extra troops. Smile

[Updated on: Tue, 19 June 2012 09:56]

      
Brf123
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 19 June 2012 20:23
I would think the whole purpose of forbidding the Barbarians from redeploying is to force them to defend their areas with no more than the minimum that was required to conquer. Otherwise, there does not seem to be much of a logical gameplay reason to have that restriction for them. It also prevents them from using extra defending units to attack, and then redeploying them to defense.
      
Wiedeman
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Re:Barbarians Question Tue, 19 June 2012 22:59
Brf123 wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 13:23

I would think the whole purpose of forbidding the Barbarians from redeploying is to force them to defend their areas with no more than the minimum that was required to conquer. Otherwise, there does not seem to be much of a logical gameplay reason to have that restriction for them. It also prevents them from using extra defending units to attack, and then redeploying them to defense.


My guess is that the logical gameplay reason is to force the Barbarian player to make more strategic choices - not to force them to do the maximum number of attacks possible. Granted, there can be some strategy in that, but the strategic game play is enhanced when the option is available.

To me, it would seem that the only limitation of the Barbarian race is that you cannot defend previous conquests with more than one race token. That seems like enough of a limitation on the race without inventing another one which is not suggested in the rules.

Furthermore, I really must refer back to the rules: There is nothing in the rules stating that one must only attack with the minimum necessary to conquer a region. It only states that you must have the minimum number necessary. There is nothing in the rules that even suggests that there is a maximum limit on how many tokens you can attack with. Until DoW officially clarifies the rules, it would seem that this is a limitation that is made up in some people's minds but not explicitly stated or even implicitly stated by DoW.

[Updated on: Wed, 20 June 2012 05:04]

      
*player38092
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Re:Barbarians Question Mon, 16 July 2012 13:49
In other games - such as Advanced Squad Leader - there is a rules interpretation called "concentrate on what the rules allow" (COWTRA).
I don't know if it could be applied here, but the rules don't specifically allow conquering with more than the needed number of tokens. I would consider that if not allowed, it cannot be done - unless an official ruling grants permission.
BTW, it seems that only the Barbarians have that problem, as other races can "pile up" supplemental tokens during redeployment.
      
draziL
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Re:Barbarians Question Mon, 13 August 2012 06:56
Quote:

I thought this was something in the FAQ that was already covered, but after looking for it I don't see anything. Maybe it'll need to be something we get official clarification on because I am just as sure that you can't attack with extra troops.



Do you have an official clarification for this matter ?

Let's assume that I have 10 Wizards and this is my first conquest. I would like to enter an empty swamp area, which means that I only need 2 tokens. Which of the following is allowed based on the offcial rules:
1. Conquer the swamp area using all 10 tokens.
2. Conquer the swamp area using 2 tokens. Stop conquering and redeploy the remaining 8 tokens in the swamp.
3. Conquer the swamp area using two tokens. The remaining 8 tokens stay in my hand until my next turn.

[Updated on: Mon, 13 August 2012 06:56]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Barbarians Question Mon, 13 August 2012 08:16
draziL wrote on Mon, 13 August 2012 08:56

Quote:

I thought this was something in the FAQ that was already covered, but after looking for it I don't see anything. Maybe it'll need to be something we get official clarification on because I am just as sure that you can't attack with extra troops.



Do you have an official clarification for this matter ?


We don't yet have an official answer, but based on the iPad version of the game (by DoW, so as official as we can get right now), this is how it works:

Quote:

Let's assume that I have 10 Wizards and this is my first conquest. I would like to enter an empty swamp area, which means that I only need 2 tokens. Which of the following is allowed based on the offcial rules:
1. Conquer the swamp area using all 10 tokens.

The iPad version does not allow you to use any extra tokens. You use the required amount, or roll for reinforcements.

Quote:

2. Conquer the swamp area using 2 tokens. Stop conquering and redeploy the remaining 8 tokens in the swamp.

In the iPad version, this would be one way to simply attack one region and keep all your troops there.

Quote:

3. Conquer the swamp area using two tokens. The remaining 8 tokens stay in my hand until my next turn.

This one is not how the game works in the iPad version or any other I know of. Razz So you don't have to wonder about this option. Cool
      
pseudofenton
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Re:Barbarians Question Fri, 07 September 2012 17:12
Okay, this is quite an in depth review of this issue, because it struck me as an interesting question - and I was kinda shocked at the responses that it got. So I signed up to give my answer:

AK_Aramis wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 10:45

You can't put them down in the redeployment. But, if you want, you can leave extras in the last space as part of the attack on that space. Requires more thinking ahead.


I'd allow this, despite all the arguments against it, with the general ruling that "you may use additional tokens to take a region than those required to take it". This doesn't seem to be against he nature or intent of the barbarians (you still cant move those tokens after conquest after all), so I see no reason to dismiss it for that reason, and doing this means you are effectively weaker in terms of conquests.

If I choose to use more tokens to take a region, then I am effectively reducing my forces for further conquests - those units are now used up and can't help me take additional regions. If I choose to forego my final reinforcement die, then I am foregoing another potential region I could be scoring with. This seems like a self balancing choice, which would very rarely ever come up, admittedly.

Also, I may have a handful of tokens left, but no regions I can (or am willing to) conquer with them at the end of my turn (due to high stacks of enemy tokens so that even the reinforcement die cant help, or my in decline race bordering all my own regions). If I were playing barbarians whilst in this situation I'd be unable to place those tokens anywhere - despite the race only stating that "If your final conquest attempt fails, keep the unused Barbarians off the board until the start of your next turn". Note this doesn't say anything like: "You must use all of your tokens to conquer as many Regions as possible. After all possible conquests, return any remaining tokens to your hand until the start of your next turn."

I can see the argument that the barbarians are meant to be reckless, but the theme of the race doesn't trump the fact that the game is a strategy game - preventing tactical play flies in the face of strategy. I'll point out that the FaQ on these forums also allow you to use the Balrog in the Underground expansion to conquer your own tokens using the Pentacle and effectively lock down the Pentacle for the rest of the game. It may be a very niche situation where you'd want to do this, but having the option to do it allows you act more tactically than forbidding it just because it seems counter-intuitive at first.

The rules themselves say: "To conquer a Region a player must have available to deploy: 2 Race tokens + ... {snip} ... upon conquering a Region the player must deploy the Race tokens he used to conquer this Region". So you must have tokens available, and they must commit those tokens to the region, but it doesn't say you can't use more than necessary - mostly due to the fact that you would never normally want to. The barbarians however are an exception, as they cannot redeploy, so this ruling therefore does matter for them.

So to conclude, the basic rules don't forbid it, the more precise racial powers don't suggest how this should be handled or contradict this ruling, and the ruling itself is in no way unbalanced in implementation. So I think its fine to say "you may commit additional tokens to conquer a region than those required to take it, placing all tokens in that region as usual".
      
dow_jason
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Re:Barbarians Question Sat, 20 October 2012 23:34
Wiedeman wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 18:47


I see no stipulation in the rules requiring you to conquer land with only the bare minimum necessary to take it. If I want to conquer a region that only requires 2 but decide to take in 6, there is nothing in the rules that says I cannot do this.

Therefore, the appropriate thing for the Barbarian player to do with a single Race token he does not want to gamble with would be to pre-commit it to another conquest in excess of the necessary forces to conquer that region.

The key to the Barbarian race is that they only use multiple tokens to defend regions they most recently conquered. They leave no "extra" troops behind in "old" territory. Therefore, depending on the situation, you may want to abandon an old "vulnerable" territory with one Barbarian in it to have the one extra troop necessary to conquer a new territory that is better defended or gives you a Special Ability bonus.

Small World Rules p. 4

> Conquering a Region

To conquer a Region, a player must have available to deploy: 2 Race tokens + 1 additional Race token for each Encampment, Fortress, Mountain, or Troll's Lair marker + 1 additional Race token for each Lost Tribe or other player's Race token already present in the region. Seas and Lakes cannot usually be conquered.

Upon conquering a Region, the player must deploy the Race tokens he used to conquer this Region inside its borders on the map. These tokens must remain in this Region until the player reorganizes his troops at the end of this turn (see Troop Redeployment, p. 5).




There is nothing in the rules that state you CAN use more than the required tokens to conquer a Region. Going by the letter of the rule, you must have x available tokens to deploy. When you conquer a Region, you must deploy the Race tokens used (which is x tokens) to the region. That's how I think it should be played.
      
    
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