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CIA Truckerteller
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NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 13:29
Once we get started, I will post the matches in this thread.

This evening after the QT I will post the groups here to get things started. After some feedback (not a lot of support for my A1-B2-C3-A4-B5-C6 grouping, some pushback against A1-B2-C3-C4-B5-A6 as well and the desire to keep groups balanced), I've come up with the following:

1 - 2 - 3
5 - 4 - 6
8 - 7 - 9
10 - 12 -11
14 - 15 - 13
18 - 17 - 16
21 - 20 - 19
xx - 23 - 22

Note that the difference in seeding can be 2, 3 or 4 (edit: there's one gap of 5, I can't seem to make it work with only 2-3-4, if any math genius can solve the puzzle, go for it), so no large gaps in strenght or adjacently seeded teams in one group.
The sum of ranks is all 77 (balanced strength in each group) and then I put the last 2 teams where it makes most sense.

At least one French and one German team in each group, not all American teams in one group. Corrections will be made at the bottom and the team in question will move down one slot in the seeding (e.g. if team 17 turns out to be the 4th German team going to group B, nr 17 and 18 will be switched).

Sysyphus will adjust the playing schedule in such a way that teams of one country meet eachother at the start of the RR.

[Updated on: Mon, 09 September 2013 23:44]

      
GSV3
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 15:37
WASA GSV3 écrit le Sat, 31 August 2013 21:29

Be creative Truck
1-2-3
4-6-5
8-7-9
10-11-12
13-15-14
18-17-16
19-21-20
22-bye-23


Well done TD
Cool
      
Elric - Sancerre
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 18:11
Maybe I missed something, but I have a candid question : wouldn't we have a 4 groups RR if we have 23 teams, according to our NC rules (http://www.tickipedia.net/wiki/NC_2010_-_Rules) ? or isn't it the last release ?

""""
17-22: Round robin, 3 groups, with QF, SF and F. 4 teams advance per group, the group with the best 2nd comer will be renamed to group D, the next groups circular to E and F, then the pairings for first rd KO will be:
1E-bye, 3F-3D, 2D-bye, 2F-4E ---- 1F-bye, 2E-4D, 1D-bye, 3E-4F
best 2nd comer will be determined according to the tiebreaker rules (13.7)
Quarterfinal: 1Evs3F-3D; 2Dvs2F-4E;;; 1Fvs2E-4D; 1Dvs3E-4F
17: (1,6,7,12,13), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16), 9 weeks
18: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16), 9 weeks
19: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,19), 11 weeks
20: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17,20) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,19), 11 weeks
21: (1,6,7,12,13,18,19), (2,5,8,11,14,17,20) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,21), 11 weeks
22: (1,6,7,12,13,18,19), (2,5,8,11,14,17,19,20) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,21,22), 11 weeks

23/24: four groups (1,8,9,16,17,24)(2,7,10,15,18,23)(3,6,11,14,19,22)(4,5,12,13 ,20,21) - groups split according to ELO team rank.
1/8, QF, SF and final (16 teams advance to KO phase) Each group gets assigned a letter A-D randomly (using toutoune`s suggestion of starting a 4 player game with 1 member of each group and seeing who is the start player - that group becomes Group A, then do it for 3 players to figure out Group B, etc.). Once a letter is assigned then the matchups are fixed.

A1 plays B4 (i.e. Group A 1st place Team play Group B 4th place team)
A2 plays B3
A3 plays B2
A4 plays B1
C1 plays D4
C2 plays D3
C3 plays D2
C4 plays D1

""""
Confused


PS : and I didn't forget, I send my seedings tonight Wink
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 18:20
We chose to go with 3 groups, so that teams have more matches to play.

With 4 groups, one group would have only 4 clashes to play, a bit lame.

23 teams in a longer and more meaningful Round Robin. 12 teams go on to KO.

Here is the last edition of the rules

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=27820&start=0

[Updated on: Mon, 09 September 2013 18:20]

      
Elric - Sancerre
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 18:31
Ok, fine with me Wink

And with 24 teams, next year maybe ?... we go with 6 teams in 4 groups (like in the past), or with 8 teams per 3 groups ?

Maybe we could update the Ticki rules to avoid confusion, no ?

And to be more honest Very Happy , maybe you could have written this :

Sysyphus - Pommard écrit le Mon, 09 September 2013 18:20

Here is the last edition of the rules, just updated right now in this way :

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=27820&start=0

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 18:34
I just updated the group pairings !

Rest was done at least 2 days ago when registration was over !
The rules of last year (6 games/match are not even in ticki) and nobody complained !

[Updated on: Mon, 09 September 2013 18:37]

      
Elric - Sancerre
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 18:46
And welcome back in RED, my dear teammate Laughing ... Wink
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 18:48
Ticki updated just for you ! Very Happy
      
CIA Truckerteller
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 19:50
Elric - Sancerre wrote on Mon, 09 September 2013 18:46

And welcome back in RED, my dear teammate Laughing ... Wink


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Fa4lOQfbA
      
onyx puffin
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 20:58
No Message Body

[Updated on: Tue, 10 September 2013 04:22]

      
CIA Truckerteller
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Mon, 09 September 2013 21:51
OK, I've received 17 seeding lists. I had to make two adjustments to get at least 1 German and 1 French team in each group, with the added benefit of having max. only 2 teams from each nation per group now.

GROUP A:
1. UEG
5. ATN
8. AAA
10. OLE
14. AMP
18. ACP
22. Pink


GROUP B:
2. TuS
4. WASA
7. CAT
11. White
15. TIC
17. AB
20. VdL
23. HFL


GROUP C:
3. RED
6. SOS
9. Champ
12. OMG
13. AGT
16. FIN
19. SMP
21. ITA

[Updated on: Mon, 09 September 2013 23:45]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 00:00
7 teams
Round 1: 7-1, 3-5, 6-2
Round 2: 1-4, 2-5, 6-7
Round 3: 5-1, 2-3, 4-7
Round 4: 7-2, 4-5, 3-6
Round 5: 6-1, 7-3, 2-4
Round 6: 1-3, 5-7, 4-6
Round 7: 1-2, 3-4, 5-6

8 teams
Round 1: 1-6, 2-5, 3-7, 4-8
Round 2: 1-3, 2-4, 5-8, 6-7
Round 3: 1-7, 2-8, 3-6, 4-5
Round 4: 1-5, 2-6, 3-8, 4-7
Round 5: 1-4, 2-7, 3-5, 6-8
Round 6: 1-8, 2-3, 5-7, 4-6
Round 7: 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8

Group A :

Round 1: ROSE-UEG, AAA-AMP, ACP-ATN
Round 2: UEG-OLE, ATN-AMP, ACP-ROSE
Round 3: AMP-UEG, ATN-AAA, OLE-ROSE
Round 4: ROSE-ATN, OLE-AMP, AAA-ACP
Round 5: ACP-UEG, ROSE-AAA, ATN-OLE
Round 6: UEG-AAA, AMP-ROSE, OLE-ACP
Round 7: UEG-ATN, AAA-OLE, AMP-ACP


Group B :

Round 1: TuS-AB, WASA-TIC, CAT-VdL, WHITE-HFL
Round 2: TuS-CAT, WASA-WHITE, TIC-HFL, AB-VdL
Round 3: TuS-VdL, WASA-HFL, CAT-AB, WHITE-TIC
Round 4: TuS-TIC, WASA-AB, CAT-HFL, WHITE-VdL
Round 5: TuS-WHITE, WASA-VdL, CAT-TIC, AB-HFL
Round 6: TuS-HFL, WASA-CAT, TIC-VdL, WHITE-AB
Round 7: TuS-WASA, CAT-WHITE, TIC-AB, VdL-HFL


Group C :

Round 1: Red-FIN, SOS-AGT, Champ-SMP, OMG-ITA
Round 2: Red-Champ, SOS-OMG, AGT-ITA, FIN-SMP
Round 3: Red-SMP, SOS-ITA, Champ-FIN, OMG-AGT
Round 4: Red-AGT, SOS-FIN, CHamp-ITA, OMG-SMP
Round 5: Red-OMG, SOS-SMP, Champ-AGT, FIN-ITA
Round 6: Red-ITA, SOS-Champ, AGT-SMP, OMG-FIN
Round 7: Red-SOS, Champ-OMG, AGT-FIN, SMP-ITA

[Updated on: Tue, 10 September 2013 00:02]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 00:58
Sorry to be a Jerk, but 3-6-9-12 in a group is borderline ridiculous, especially when TDs group is in it.

The worst of top 3, the worst of 4-6, the worst of 7-9, the worst of 10-12...

Need to redo seeding.
      
CIA dizz
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 03:35
Well, Captain Storm-in-a-teacup,

If the community will allow me to respond, I think the TD pretty well explained the groupings in his first post before actual teams were plugged into the formula. He even suggested math geniuses respond if they could figure out the "gap of 5". I guess this means you're not a math genius?

In plugging in the actual teams, the TD stated he made two adjustments to the original formula and why he did it: to reflect better international balance in the groups. Seems pretty transparent to me. In fact, math non-geniuses like me can see that he switched 11 & 12 and 21 & 22. Otherwise, there are four French teams in group C and 3 German teams in group B. Clearly more internationally balanced this way.

Besides, how much can one or two places matter when the seedings are based on non-objective captains' estimations? I, for one, think my own team's seeding is too high, but I account for that by assuming that some of the captains might be kissing up to the TD a bit Shocked (my guess would be that you weren't one of them Twisted Evil ). But that's what was decided on before the process started. So, for better or worse, I'm not gonna whine about it. While you, too, might not agree with everything about the result, I invite you to do the same. Or submit a better alternative that achieves balance and makes everyone else happy as well. Shouldn't be too hard, I'm sure. Rolling Eyes

So, does this mean we'll have an admitted jerk volunteer to be TD next year? Razz

Regards,
-SOS dizz
(who admits that while TRYING to objective, she IS the SO of the TD, so who really knows? Very Happy )

[Updated on: Tue, 10 September 2013 05:00]

      
A_Canadian_eh
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 03:59
ATN Drake wrote on Mon, 09 September 2013 16:58

Need to redo seeding.


Wow...I knew ACP's International status would carry weight, but I certainly didn't expect to see our first round opponents request a reseeding to avoid playing us! Laughing

Edit...I trust everyone realizes this was my (maybe poor) attempt to introduce some humour to the situation!

[Updated on: Tue, 10 September 2013 18:19]

      
GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 04:11
No Message Body

[Updated on: Tue, 10 September 2013 16:53]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 05:16
To be honest I didn't look at the actual teams in each group. I just looked at the seeding numbers. And it doesn't take a math genius to know its not right.

Nothing will be done obviously, but this "5 gap" problem, isn't a problem. The whole point of doing the perceived rankings is to get a realistic hierarchy, not perfect, but better than 2P/USA ELO.

It should have been:
1-2-3
6-5-4
7-8-9
12-11-10
13-14-15
18-17-16
19-20-21

The value of the top 4 teams really should be as close as possible since those are the teams most likely to get into the KO round (assuming a perfect ranking). In the above example it adds to 26 for each 3 groups. With the current seeding it is 1,5,8,10 = 24 group 1, 2,4,7,11 = 24 group 2, 3,6,9,12 = 30 group 3. As such, Group 3 is 'seeded' too easy. Looking at the actual teams in the groups, they might be even, but that's not the point. The point is the method for seeding the groups should have been better.
      
CIA dizz
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 08:56
ATN Drake wrote on Mon, 09 September 2013 21:16

To be honest I didn't look at the actual teams in each group. I just looked at the seeding numbers. And it doesn't take a math genius to know its not right.


Really? You 'honestly' didn't look at the actual teams even though you identify the TD's team in the first sentence of your post?

Quote:

Nothing will be done obviously, but this "5 gap" problem, isn't a problem. The whole point of doing the perceived rankings is to get a realistic hierarchy, not perfect, but better than 2P/USA ELO.

It should have been:
1-2-3
6-5-4
7-8-9
12-11-10
13-14-15
18-17-16
19-20-21


This would give us 3 of 6 German teams in group A (with no French), all 3 US teams in B, and 3 of 5 French teams in C (or B depending on where you put 22 and 23, which you've left off your groupings for whatever reason). I think everyone would agree in these cases that 'a realistic hierarchy', while being a primary goal is not the only goal and should not sacrifice the international balance that gives all teams an opportunity to enjoy the international flavor of the tournament as much as possible during the round robin phase.

Quote:

The value of the top 4 teams really should be as close as possible since those are the teams most likely to get into the KO round (assuming a perfect ranking). In the above example it adds to 26 for each 3 groups. With the current seeding it is 1,5,8,10 = 24 group 1, 2,4,7,11 = 24 group 2, 3,6,9,12 = 30 group 3. As such, Group 3 is 'seeded' too easy.


As we've all agreed we are in NO WAY 'assuming a perfect ranking' and yet you invoke it as necessary for your method to work. We're not getting it with straight ELO nor do we get it with captain's perceived rankings. So, why even have this discussion? If the rankings are admittedly imperfect (and more subjective than ever this year), how can the seeding for the groups not also be imperfect? A 'better method' does not erase the defects of imperfect ranking. So why bother bringing it up? Nor does it account for the other dynamics that make the NC the unique international team tournament that it is. It's an imperfect system just about any way it can be done. Therefore, the TD's (whoever they are) have to try to do the best they can with the ingredients they're given. I think they've achieved that. If you disagree, by all means mount a campaign to work your perfection as TD next year. Very Happy

Quote:

Looking at the actual teams in the groups, they might be even, but that's not the point. The point is the method for seeding the groups should have been better.


The actual groups as now constituted are even AND internationally balanced. That is entirely the point of NC, in my opinion. It's clear your example of a better method would make things murkier and more TD subjective than they are now. I simply don't understand your point, really. After all, when it comes to being better, what's better? Better method or better result?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEIQPz-wbjo
      
CIA Truckerteller
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 10:25
Well, I think Drake is being a bit of a dick for suggestion my partiality in this matter, but I'll explain myself nonetheless.

The original grouping was as posted in the beginning of this thread. It's in line with GSV's suggestion, I discussed it with dea and sysyphus and the first 7 teams all add up to 77. Group C is a bit stronger in the back, group A is a bit stronger in the front. The reason for not going for 1-6-7-12-13 etc is that group A, with the exception of UEG will be the weakest group. We've had this in the past 3 of 4 years as I explained in the other thread beforehand. Last year, you Drake, were the biggest complainer against group A, where OLE didn't play in their strongest formation.

1 - 2 - 3
5 - 4 - 6
8 - 7 - 9
10 - 12 -11
14 - 15 - 13
18 - 17 - 16
21 - 20 - 19
xx - 23 - 22

So, the above may be debatable, but it's certainly not partial.

Then we get to switching 11 and 12 around, White and OmG. The alternative was switching OLE and White around, but I figured that White and OmG were more similar. One really strong player and 5-6 3600 US+2P combined ones. Moreover, OmG is ranked higher in the ratinglist (both 5p and 6p average) and 9 out of 17 captains ranked OmG higher than White. If I take out White RFAD's seeding (White nr 1, RED nr 2, Champ nr. 3 and US teams really low), the difference in average ranking between OmG and White is the smallest of any 11.57 vs 11.81.

Then I moved up ITA to group C and Pink to Group A to have at least 1 French team in group A, thereby adding a slightly stronger team back to group C.

Also, I think the favourites of Group C will have a hard time beating FIN (Anu_, Val) and AGT (Urgestein, MV, Diplo), whereas I don't see something similar in groups A or B.

In conclusion: Very balanced groups from 1 to 8, max 2 German, French and American teams in each group and Will can play his buddy WhiteTrain.
      
TAKA Enix - Poulsard
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 11:56
Hi TD,

I guess there is a mistake in group B for the round 1.

THe french team White have to play HFL(Ukraine).
The other french team in group B is VdL

I let you do what you have to do.

Thanks for all you do TD, and sorry to disturb you with this.

Peace
      
TuS Tenniskasi
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 15:42
Please dont be too correct. TuS for example is completely overrated, also UEG. Very Happy Seriously, it depends on ur scheduling, if ur team has to be higher ranked than another, and so if a group is weaker than another. Let it as it is and lets get


ready to ruuuuuuuuuuuumbleeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Very Happy

[Updated on: Tue, 10 September 2013 15:47]

      
TuS Tenniskasi
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 15:50
SOS Truckerteller schrieb am Tue, 10 September 2013 10:25


In conclusion: Very balanced groups from 1 to 8, max 2 German, French and American teams in each group and Will can play his buddy WhiteTrain.


He asked already for his slot Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Carsten
      
GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 17:10
Levity was apparently inappropriate, so I deleted my prior.

I should probably follow my own advice here - shut up and/or take it to a private PM. But, since this is all public at this point.

Drake,
I appreciate your attention to details, your sense of gaming strategy and your willingness to work hard at figuring out ways to find balance and fairness in the tournaments. We need someone like you to do those sorts of things.

On the other hand...

I fail to understand why people are allergic to contacting the TD privately if there is a problem before they take the public shaming route with a post in the forum. Human relations 101. If you want to make your case, try to make it first privately. A public note that attacks is the most certain way to encourage people to discount your argument and it almost certainly insures you will have an opponent in the form of the TD (or the TD's SO).

If you want someone to volunteer for a position, it doesn't help to attack whenever things aren't up to your standards. Now, if the situation got to the point where there seemed to be no responsiveness on the part of the TD, I would resort to the public approach.

In fact, I'd like to think that if you were the TD, we would try to avoid doing what you just did for your sake and out of respect for the effort you would put into the job.

I suppose you might argue that this was already a public discussion - one that you contributed heavily on. But, that discussion appeared to wind down and someone (Truck) had to just make it happen. So, it happened. Make a list. Make the post later in the tourney when a call for rules and tournament workings discussion is made. It stays constructive, it is more likely to gain a following.

Rob
GFF
      
SY/\/ \/\/ill
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 17:49
Does he play against WASA UKB GURU SNS or whatever I am at the moment??? If so what place kasi???

I actually tried commenting on this thread this morning from my phone... but internet reception died...

It read:

"I'm glad the TD has realised what is unimportant and what is important. Fairness in grouping is over-rated, bring on the Germans I say. Will vs Felix is clash of the tourney Wink Even better if all the Germans are in one group, as long as it's mine. I'll kick all of their asses remorselessly except:
Kasi - I'll kick his ass but take it easy on the old man, have a little love and compassion for my fusion/tag/CL buddy! I suggest playing TAG with him, he sounds like Gunter the fat Austrian exchange student from the simpsons when he laughs Laughing
Rocketblizzard - She's lovely so i'll be very polite and courteous but wont let her have her 6ers!
Goscha - She'll kick my ass, baaaaad track record against her!

Bring it on!"

To infinity and beyond!

http://wallpaperpassion.com/upload_puzzle_thumb/10725/buzz-lightyear-toy-story-3-wallpaper.jpg
      
CIA dizz
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 18:48
Language, Truckie! Name-calling gets us nowhere positive. Razz

While generally disagreeing with Drake, I was also trying to have a bit of fun with the "admitted jerk" thing, since he did qualify his post with it at the very beginning. Seems if one feels it necessary to apologize for being a jerk up front, everything that follows after might be better left unsaid, especially if it doesn't really improve things or looks like it becomes personal. I WAS trying to give him credit for at least being an apologetic jerk. Wink

And while I may disagree with Drake in this case, I do not consider myself an 'opponent' to Drake, generally (unless both our teams make it out of the round robin and we get to face each other on the board Twisted Evil). This is not personal for me because my SO is TD (I was trying to poke a bit of fun with my own 'impartiality' there Wink ). I have no problem with anyone questioning decisions of tourney TD's, especially if their point is valid and improves things for the tournament. Drake's posts fail both those thresholds, in my opinion, so I questioned them. I also agree with GFF that there is likely a better method Very Happy than publicly making it look personal.

All in all, I am looking forward to another successful NC and appreciate everyone's efforts to improve things and make it all happen. I found Drake's exhaustive work on improving the ELO rankings by actual tournament performance impressive, to say the least. I happen to know the TD did, too. Smile

I'll also hope that Goscha is not nearly as confused about his gender as Will is. Rolling Eyes
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 19:05
SOS dizz wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 10:48


I'll also hope that Goscha is not nearly as confused about his gender as Will is. Rolling Eyes


He thinks Goscha is TuS... Forget about the gender !

I already miss George Takei, even if I don't know who he is, probably like 0,5% of ignorant players like me !

[Updated on: Tue, 10 September 2013 19:46]

      
AGT-DN
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 19:40
Sysyphus kind of lives behind the moon....or beyond

I already miss George Takei, even if I don't know who he is


Shocked
      
Mr Bean
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 19:47
SOS dizz wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 18:48


I'll also hope that Goscha is not nearly as confused about his gender as Will is. Rolling Eyes


You have to admit it's confusing; names that end with -a tend to be female, so maybe we should ask him to rename to Goscho Evil or Very Mad ?
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 19:47
I am not a Star Trek guy Sad
      
ATN Drake
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 21:28
I don't have anything against Truck, and it is just coincidence that his team along with sysy's team who are the 2 main people running NC this year ended up in the 'mathematically' weak group.

I have tried making suggestions in a more positive manner for years, and 99% of the time nothing ever happens! It will probably take 2 years before my point sinks in with this issue.

The perceived ranking change this year was a step in the right direction, but then most of its benefit gets thrown out the door with the way the group seeding was done.

I understand the desire to spread out the different nations in groups, and if this is a true goal, it should start from the bottom up (which Truck might have done, I have no opinion on the 2 changes he made).

Also the uneven grouping might be more acceptable, if there were 4 groups and no 2nd place team was getting a first round "bye" in the KO phase. As it stands, I think group C has a better chance of getting the bye. Of course anything can happen during the RR, but when setting up the system it should be fair.

I also have a different view of a TD. I consider the TD as someone who executes the rules, not someone who makes them up. Now its not Truck's fault there isn't a specific rule for seeding the groups like there should have been - I blame Sysy for that. j/k.

Obviously none of the other teams in group A or B care (or they haven't read this thread yet), so it is what it is.



      
ATN Drake
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Tue, 10 September 2013 21:41
On another note, an issue that is always swept under the rug every year and no formal solution is ever adopted is the time zone difference.

thekid is no longer around to cause scheduling problems, but that doesn't mean the problem still doesn't exist.

I am just making this post before matches start, to make a point that USA players (or any player in an odd time zone) shouldn't have to play EVERY single round at an inconvenient time (i.e. lunch break, etc), while Europeans get to play at 6-11pm.
      
Goscha
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Wed, 11 September 2013 00:08
Or shall i be your Geisha Laughing
      
onyx puffin
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Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Wed, 11 September 2013 06:04
OK, as a captain of one team, I will wade into the discussion on the issue raised by I think both Drake & Elric.

1. I am not sure how the 23/24 teams rule/policy about having 4 divisions got nullified; but I guess this happens when one does away with the Nation's Cup teams having Board representatives. We dissolve the board, we live with decision of the few willing to lead I guess.

2. As for the grouping, I feel truck did the best that he could with the other parameters we put into play about the countries. However, I think Drake raises a legitimate concern in one way, the KO Bye situation. Therefore I would propose to hear better solutions to the Bye issue. I would propose that a random drawing process be developed for the 4th bye position among all teams tied for 2nd in their respective division.

While that may not solve all of Drake's points & concerns, I believe that would help the matter.

[Updated on: Wed, 11 September 2013 06:05]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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NC discussion Wed, 11 September 2013 07:10
onyx puffin AMP wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 22:04


1. I am not sure how the 23/24 teams rule/policy about having 4 divisions got nullified;



Well, my intention was simple.
  • NC is the most popular tourney.
  • NC is the most fun moment of the year, and the only one when lobby is not dead asleep or boring.
  • NC is the most competitive tourney with all the top players joining the party.
  • 4 divisions = 4 weeks of fun for one group. = 1 or 2 matches only for certain player. You just get a taste of it.
  • 3 divisions = 7 weeks of Round Robin for everybody = 4/5 matches for everybody = 7 weeks of an animated lobby promoting our flagship tournament. You get a full experience.

    I think the decision did not need a thorough discussion. I always consider the interest of the tournament, and the interest of players so that they can have the best experience. TELO would also benefit from having more data !

    Any time we take a decision (we= me, truck, dea, Qorlas mainly ), we try to promote the tourney, the community and defend the interest of the players.

    Considering all the minor changes that have been made this year, we would barely start to discuss the matters with a board.
    We would still discuss on the wordings of the 10 issues raised in the forum.
    Board has been proven to be unefficient.

    If we need some input, we open a discussion in the forum. Drake has been one of the main and efficient contributors lately and most of the changes of this year's NC rules are coming from his suggestions.

    We opened a discussion about the seeding... I think that 4 or 5 persons only gave their input (in other words : 133 other players did not care at the time, or 133 players trust TD's decisions, or 133 players just want to play)... there was no clear consensus, nor miracle solution. Then discussion switched to a draft, which was unrealistic for this year.

    Considering the timeline, a decision had to be taken fast and Truck took it.

    If you want to start a discussion about a possible rules improvement, please do so at the following link !
    http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=27597&start=40

    [Updated on: Wed, 11 September 2013 07:23]

  •       
    Sysyphus - Pommard
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    Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Wed, 11 September 2013 07:28
    Enix - Poulsard wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 03:56

    Hi TD,

    I guess there is a mistake in group B for the round 1.

    THe french team White have to play HFL(Ukraine).
    The other french team in group B is VdL

    I let you do what you have to do.

    Thanks for all you do TD, and sorry to disturb you with this.

    Peace


    Je crois qu'il y a juste incompréhension sur le sens du mot "earlier in the tournament".
    On voulait juste éviter que les équipes d'une même nation se rencontrent dans les deux derniers tours quand les résultats sont cruciaux.
    Earlier suppose qu'elles se rencontrent plus tôt dans le tournoi mais pas forcément au premier tour !
    J'espère que je réponds à ta question !

    There is just a misunderstanding about the concept of "earlier in the tournament". Not playing a fellow team in the last 2 rounds does not imply that you have to play them in the first round !

    [Updated on: Wed, 11 September 2013 07:29]

          
    OmG Schaffnerlos
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    Re:NC discussion Wed, 11 September 2013 08:53
    Sysyphus - Pommard schrieb am Wed, 11 September 2013 07:10

    onyx puffin AMP wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 22:04


    1. I am not sure how the 23/24 teams rule/policy about having 4 divisions got nullified;



    Well, my intention was simple.
  • NC is the most popular tourney.
  • NC is the most fun moment of the year, and the only one when lobby is not dead asleep or boring.
  • NC is the most competitive tourney with all the top players joining the party.
  • 4 divisions = 4 weeks of fun for one group. = 1 or 2 matches only for certain player. You just get a taste of it.
  • 3 divisions = 7 weeks of Round Robin for everybody = 4/5 matches for everybody = 7 weeks of an animated lobby promoting our flagship tournament. You get a full experience.

    I think the decision did not need a thorough discussion. I always consider the interest of the tournament, and the interest of players so that they can have the best experience. TELO would also benefit from having more data !

    Any time we take a decision (we= me, truck, dea, Qorlas mainly ), we try to promote the tourney, the community and defend the interest of the players.



  • Well done guys - thank you - nothing more to add. Smile
          
    CIA Truckerteller
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    Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Wed, 11 September 2013 10:45
    Some thoughts:

    - 4 groups in stead of 3, how does this come about ?
    Sysyphus: "I just read that the official rules state that we will have 4 groups with 23 players, but I think 3 groups and 12 teams advancing is much better"
    Truckerteller: "Yes, I agree, much better, let's do that"
    Sysyphus: "OK, I'll change the wiki page"

    - Drake's suggestions and nothing happening 99% of the time.
    Probably 80% of the suggestions we don't agree on, 15% of the suggestions hit a point that will be taken care of in a manner that is not 100% your suggestion, 4% takes some time to sink in, and 1% is great and will get implemented as is.

    - The best nr 2.
    As the rankings of all groups add up to 77 for the top 7, that means for the nr 4 seed, the competition is 73. For the nr 5 seed, the competition is 72 and for the nr 6 seed, the competition is 71. So nr 4 has the easiest schedule.
    A different angle: Assuming 1,2 and 3 are superstrong, nr 4 will battle 7-12-15, nr 5 will battle 8-10-14 and nr 6 will battle 9-11-13. The gaps for nr 4 are the largest, the gaps for nr. 6 are the smallest, so nr 6 will have the toughest time and nr.4 will have the best chance to get the best nr 2 position.

    - The role of the TD
    I see my role and the role of TD in general as Tournament Director. Not Tournament Clerck. The organizer is responsible for discussing, changing and making rules and keeping the tournament on the right track in general. The Tournament Director is responsible for enforcing the rules, and filling the voids of the rules and making tough decisions where the rules don't fully do the trick. This is most prominent when dealing with letting people enter the tournament in the first place. We've had a board and a Tournament Cleck in the past, and frankly, I don't think that was working very well in dealing with issues.

    - Scheduling problems
    I'm fairly flexible to give players extra time to schedule, but indeed, it might be good to have some wording in the rules. I don't know what those words should be and I see my role here as merely 1 voice in a discussion. I think, if 80% of the players come from Europe, you have to make the best out of it 80% of the time, and Europeans need to be flexible 20% of the time.

    [Updated on: Wed, 11 September 2013 10:48]

          
    TAKA Enix - Poulsard
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    Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Wed, 11 September 2013 11:12
    Sysyphus - Pommard écrit le Wed, 11 September 2013 07:28

    Enix - Poulsard wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 03:56

    Hi TD,

    I guess there is a mistake in group B for the round 1.

    THe french team White have to play HFL(Ukraine).
    The other french team in group B is VdL

    I let you do what you have to do.

    Thanks for all you do TD, and sorry to disturb you with this.

    Peace


    Je crois qu'il y a juste incompréhension sur le sens du mot "earlier in the tournament".
    On voulait juste éviter que les équipes d'une même nation se rencontrent dans les deux derniers tours quand les résultats sont cruciaux.
    Earlier suppose qu'elles se rencontrent plus tôt dans le tournoi mais pas forcément au premier tour !
    J'espère que je réponds à ta question !

    There is just a misunderstanding about the concept of "earlier in the tournament". Not playing a fellow team in the last 2 rounds does not imply that you have to play them in the first round !


    Ok Sorry for my misunderstandood Very Happy
          
    SY/\/ \/\/ill
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    Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Wed, 11 September 2013 13:20
    UEG Goscha wrote on Tue, 10 September 2013 23:08

    Or shall i be your Geisha Laughing

    I'm rather disgusted in myself. From a combination of poor disco lighting, plenty of alcohol, Rick Astley from the DJ, and Goscha wearing a skirt, we had a bit of a smooch-fest in the nightclub. No wonder Goscha insisted the lights were out when we went to bed in his hotel... I wondered why I walked with a limp next day...

    http://www.trippytraveller.com/images/thai-ladyboy12.jpg

    Still he looked better than Sven playing badminton in Haagse Bos...

    Ps Sysy, we got together before me and Megs Wink
          
    Goscha
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    Re:NATIONS CUP GROUPS AND PAIRINGS Wed, 11 September 2013 17:46
    For explanation:

    I am on the right drinking a cocktail. Cool
          
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