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sam1812
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Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 05:30
Equipment Pack rule book says that all Italian ground units may retreat up to 3 hexes, because of the quality of the Italian motor vehicles.

Cavalry ride on horses, rather than motor vehicles.

In Cavalry Charge at Chebotarevsky, #5 in the booklet of Additional Scenarios for the Equipment Pack, we have Italian Cavalry. Do they retreat 3 because they're pare of "all" Italian ground units, or retreat 1 because they're not motorized?

We seem compelled to go with 3, even though it seems illogical, unless this case wasn't anticipated when the rule was written.
      
JFKoski
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 05:46
When it's time to retreat, they load the horses in trailers and drive away from the battlefield.
      
stevens
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 12:32
The gist of the ITALIAN Nation rules is that ground forces may retreat rapidly because they are motorized. Even though the Cavalry are not technically motorized, they still have a high level of maneuverability (move 3 and battle, Overun, etc.) so I would not have an issue with having them retreat up to three hexes with each flag.

P.7 Mediterranean Rules
Quote:

In Memoir '44 all Italian ground units may retreat 1, 2 or 3 hexes for each flag rolled against them.



Sam, I put your question in the FAQ queue.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 November 2013 12:59]

      
sam1812
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 14:11
The Italian horses must be faster than the Polish ones, which retreat only 1 hex.
      
Quit2
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 14:50
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 21 November 2013 14:11

The Italian horses must be faster than the Polish ones, which retreat only 1 hex.

The vehicles that transport all the equipment for the italian cavalry (like the food for the horses) are motorised and therefor they can retreat faster.

Polish cavalry horses have to pull the wagons with the food so they cannot retreat as fast.
      
van Voort
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 21:12
I don't think it is suppossed to be particulary realistic

The National Bonuses reflect a broad brush view of the war

Unfortunatly the Italians are famous for doing a lot of retreats*

The rule reflects that whilst trying to paint it in a positive way.



*There's a load of things wrong with that

Quite apart from the fighting record of the Italians if anything one of the defining factors of the Italian Army was that they did not have enough motor transport to go around in the first place.

This is one reason for the large capitulations in the desert:

An infantry unit on foot, in the desert, that is cut off can only surrender or die. It's not like they can retreat on foot.

Also the Germans tended to steal their trucks and leave them in the lurch
      
Almilcar
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 21:57
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 21 November 2013 14:11

The Italian horses must be faster than the Polish ones, which retreat only 1 hex.


Yea, probably they were like these

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
      
sir Tanksalot
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 21 November 2013 23:57
Nope, thats a Friesian Smile


Sorry, but just have to protect the Frisian honor
      
Major Duncan
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Re:Italian Cavalry Fri, 29 November 2013 21:28
The polish Dragoons can retreat 2 hexes.

I've got to say I am a little puzzled as to the 'highly motorised' Italians? I was not aware that they were generally more motorised than the Brits and Germans.
      
van Voort
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Re:Italian Cavalry Fri, 29 November 2013 22:07
That's because they were not, they were even less mechanised than the Germans but more so than the Japanese

I'm not even sure that "excellent quality" can be sustained either, but that is more of a judgement call

In any case which would you rather have:

1 Ferrari or 20 Trucks?
      
tank commander
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Re:Italian Cavalry Wed, 11 December 2013 11:29
van Voort wrote on Fri, 29 November 2013 16:07

That's because they were not, they were even less mechanised than the Germans but more so than the Japanese

I'm not even sure that "excellent quality" can be sustained either, but that is more of a judgement call

In any case which would you rather have:

1 Ferrari or 20 Trucks?


If I was in command and wished to retreat at a much faster pace while leaving my entire unit behind as a rear guard, the Ferrari of course Laughing
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Italian Cavalry Wed, 11 December 2013 20:07
One thing you have to keep in mind is the Italian rules were created to apply to the elite North African motorized Italian brigades (e.g., Trieste) and NOT to all Italian infantry. They do not apply to a scenario from the front that you create for units that are not elite motorized units. They do not apply to Sicily, Italy, Greece or eastern front.

The NA elite units were motorized and probably good at scrounging up whatever was necessary to ensure a quick motorized retreat.

      
van Voort
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Re:Italian Cavalry Thu, 12 December 2013 15:39
If the Germans hadn't stolen it first
      
tank commander
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Re:Italian Cavalry Sat, 14 December 2013 23:21
One thing that is sadly lacking designer notes.

These were included in many of the historical military board games I have bought over the years. They often expained many of the rules and gave the rational and intent behind them. Knowing why a rule was written the way it was usually helps.

Although there is some degree of expaining the Memoir rules, they do not go far enough, IMO.
      
tank commander
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Re:Italian Cavalry Sat, 14 December 2013 23:28
Sgt Storm wrote on Wed, 11 December 2013 14:07

One thing you have to keep in mind is the Italian rules were created to apply to the elite North African motorized Italian brigades (e.g., Trieste) and NOT to all Italian infantry.


Actually, the rule as written applies to all Italian ground units.

The rule only makes a reference the North African campaign, but does not appear to restrict this special rule to use in only North Africa.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Italian Cavalry Sun, 15 December 2013 23:57
You may be right, but DOW rules apply only to official scenarios. What official Italian scenarios involving these rules are in a setting other than North Africa?
      
JFKoski
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Re:Italian Cavalry Mon, 16 December 2013 04:28
The Equipment Pack Bonus Scenarios feature 4 scenarios with Italians and Italian Army Rules, 3 of which are on the Eastern Front including the one first mentioned above.

Cavalry Charge at Chebotarevsky,
Operation Little Saturn,
Yasnaya Polyana, and
Italian Diversion at Gazala.

DOW and RBorg has yet to put these in the scenario section, either unclassified or classified. I understand it is available for purchase price of just shipping and handling at the DOW store.

Battle of Agordat was written for the French Open 2013 based on Equipment Pack rules. It has Italian Cavalry in East Africa. I consider East Africa (Gallabat & Mettema are in E.A.) to be a front distinct from North Africa, and have been requesting that it be made so with it's own look (desert tiles, except hills, on green board).

[Updated on: Mon, 16 December 2013 04:36]

      
tank commander
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Re:Italian Cavalry Mon, 16 December 2013 11:33
An interseting fact. Italy employed over 10,000 trucks when fighting against Ethopia in 1935.

[Updated on: Mon, 16 December 2013 11:36]

      
    
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