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Franck
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Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Thu, 12 December 2013 14:11
As a backer reward for the Small World 2 Kickstarter program we created a new Royal Bonus Mini-expansion featuring 3 new Small World Races and 3 Special Powers. Royal Bonus races include Fauns, Igors and a new favorite - the impregnable forest dwellers known as Shrubmen!

Special Powers are Aquatic, Behemoths (don't let them get settled in the swamps), and a magical Fireball.

We also reprinted a batch of the long out of print Necromancer Island and an improved version of Leaders of Small World (now including all the races from the Small World Universe, up to the Royal Bonus) for our backers. After fulfilling these Kickstarter rewards, we found ourselves with a few extra copies which we are making available to Small World fans.

http://blog.daysofwonder.com/wp-content/dow-uploads/2013/12/sw-special-expansions-en.jpg


So while stocks last (and we mean it when we say these are limited in number), you can pick up the new Royal Bonus expansion, Necromancer Island and Leaders exclusively from the Days of Wonder website. Please, note that this offer is limited to one copy of each expansion per order.

Head to the Small World Special Expansions page to learn more or to our webstore to order them.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 December 2013 18:16]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Fri, 13 December 2013 13:15
This looks great, although I certainly can't have it in French.

One thing that bothers me though : until now, I've noticed one or two misrepresented race and power, like Dwarves "who" should have been granted 4 tokens instead of 3, that's what it should have been if we compare Dwarves to Wizards on one side, and Forest to Muddy (from Small World Underground) on the other side (two tokens less for the former, only one for the latter, making Dwarves underpowered).

But now the Shrubmen set a MUCH more unbalanced side to the game. They can expect to easily get three or four, even five immune regions, two at the very least, including in decline ! While unfortunate Halflings have to content themselves with only two immune regions, and not even in decline ! Really, idea men of Small World had great ideas for most of the available races and powers, but I really don't get this one and how they could make such a mistake. Shrubmen shouldn't have been granted more than 4 tokens ! Well, that's just an opinion, of course...

[Updated on: Fri, 13 December 2013 13:18]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Fri, 13 December 2013 16:25
blaxnlion wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 16:15

This looks great, although I certainly can't have it in French.

One thing that bothers me though : until now, I've noticed one or two misrepresented race and power, like Dwarves "who" should have been granted 4 tokens instead of 3, that's what it should have been if we compare Dwarves to Wizards on one side, and Forest to Muddy (from Small World Underground) on the other side (two tokens less for the former, only one for the latter, making Dwarves underpowered).

But now the Shrubmen set a MUCH more unbalanced side to the game. They can expect to easily get three or four, even five immune regions, two at the very least, including in decline ! While unfortunate Halflings have to content themselves with only two immune regions, and not even in decline ! Really, idea men of Small World had great ideas for most of the available races and powers, but I really don't get this one and how they could make such a mistake. Shrubmen shouldn't have been granted more than 4 tokens ! Well, that's just an opinion, of course...


Have you tried the Shrubmen in a game yet? I haven't found them to be overpowered at all. Like all races they have their strength but there is always a strategy available to other players to counter the Shrubmen abilities.

And saying that Dwarves are underpowered misses the point that player pick and choose their race. I've won several games by picking Dwarves at various times in the game...that's one of the fun things about SW! There are no 'broken' races or powers!
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Fri, 13 December 2013 17:32
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 16:25

blaxnlion wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 16:15

This looks great, although I certainly can't have it in French.

One thing that bothers me though : until now, I've noticed one or two misrepresented race and power, like Dwarves "who" should have been granted 4 tokens instead of 3, that's what it should have been if we compare Dwarves to Wizards on one side, and Forest to Muddy (from Small World Underground) on the other side (two tokens less for the former, only one for the latter, making Dwarves underpowered).

But now the Shrubmen set a MUCH more unbalanced side to the game. They can expect to easily get three or four, even five immune regions, two at the very least, including in decline ! While unfortunate Halflings have to content themselves with only two immune regions, and not even in decline ! Really, idea men of Small World had great ideas for most of the available races and powers, but I really don't get this one and how they could make such a mistake. Shrubmen shouldn't have been granted more than 4 tokens ! Well, that's just an opinion, of course...


Have you tried the Shrubmen in a game yet? I haven't found them to be overpowered at all. Like all races they have their strength but there is always a strategy available to other players to counter the Shrubmen abilities.

And saying that Dwarves are underpowered misses the point that player pick and choose their race. I've won several games by picking Dwarves at various times in the game...that's one of the fun things about SW! There are no 'broken' races or powers!


I've never said Dwarves systematically made someone lose. If you won with them several times, good for you ; all I'm saying is that the odds are against you if you pick them.

As for the Shrubmen, I don't need to test them at all to know they're overpowered. Think about it, it's not complicated to compare them with Halflings who've got the same amount of tokens ! I think Shrubmen are overpowered and I won't change my mind, whether I can play with them or not. And don't think I haven't thought this through : before I even heard about Shrubmen, I had imagined the Ents with the exact same ability but my calculations led me to think they only deserved three tokens. Don't think I post something at random Wink

Whatever the counter-strategy is, there will always be a place in the map the Shrubmen will be able to enter more or less easily to get a Forest. And I would be very surprised if there could exist a game and configuration that could prevent them from getting a second one. That's then at least two immune regions, like the Halflings, except that there remain like this in decline. It is unbalanced !

[Updated on: Fri, 13 December 2013 17:33]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Fri, 13 December 2013 19:56
blaxnlion wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 20:32

I've never said Dwarves systematically made someone lose. If you won with them several times, good for you ; all I'm saying is that the odds are against you if you pick them.


And I would say, "What's wrong with that?!"

The odds are against you if you pick a Cursed race. Or White Ladies. Or any number of other combinations. The whole fun of the game is figuring out how to win with the choices you have and the pick that you make. Dwarves might be a weak pick, but that's not a problem.

Quote:

As for the Shrubmen, I don't need to test them at all to know they're overpowered. Think about it, it's not complicated to compare them with Halflings who've got the same amount of tokens ! I think Shrubmen are overpowered and I won't change my mind, whether I can play with them or not.


Well that discussion was short-lived. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

And don't think I haven't thought this through : before I even heard about Shrubmen, I had imagined the Ents with the exact same ability but my calculations led me to think they only deserved three tokens. Don't think I post something at random Wink

Whatever the counter-strategy is, there will always be a place in the map the Shrubmen will be able to enter more or less easily to get a Forest. And I would be very surprised if there could exist a game and configuration that could prevent them from getting a second one. That's then at least two immune regions, like the Halflings, except that there remain like this in decline. It is unbalanced !


And like I said, I haven't noticed them being way overpowered. And I have played with them many, many times. Yes it's nice having immune regions even In Decline, but it's not as hard to overcome as Diplomat in a 2-player game. This is a very fun new Race that I'm very happy to have in the game.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Fri, 13 December 2013 20:04
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 19:56

blaxnlion wrote on Fri, 13 December 2013 20:32

I've never said Dwarves systematically made someone lose. If you won with them several times, good for you ; all I'm saying is that the odds are against you if you pick them.


And I would say, "What's wrong with that?!"

The odds are against you if you pick a Cursed race. Or White Ladies. Or any number of other combinations. The whole fun of the game is figuring out how to win with the choices you have and the pick that you make. Dwarves might be a weak pick, but that's not a problem.

Quote:

As for the Shrubmen, I don't need to test them at all to know they're overpowered. Think about it, it's not complicated to compare them with Halflings who've got the same amount of tokens ! I think Shrubmen are overpowered and I won't change my mind, whether I can play with them or not.


Well that discussion was short-lived. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

And don't think I haven't thought this through : before I even heard about Shrubmen, I had imagined the Ents with the exact same ability but my calculations led me to think they only deserved three tokens. Don't think I post something at random Wink

Whatever the counter-strategy is, there will always be a place in the map the Shrubmen will be able to enter more or less easily to get a Forest. And I would be very surprised if there could exist a game and configuration that could prevent them from getting a second one. That's then at least two immune regions, like the Halflings, except that there remain like this in decline. It is unbalanced !


And like I said, I haven't noticed them being way overpowered. And I have played with them many, many times. Yes it's nice having immune regions even In Decline, but it's not as hard to overcome as Diplomat in a 2-player game. This is a very fun new Race that I'm very happy to have in the game.



Well, if it worked well for you, better for you. But I couldn't try it even if I wanted to. The fact is, I think they're too strong. To have calculated they should have been given a 3, at least.

Dwarves are still OK because people are going to skip them and they'll get money. But the opposite cannot happen. Really, I will never understand how the designers calculated the whole stuff. Unless somebody explains it to me ^^ But the logic speaks for itself : overpowered in most of the cases, like Dwarves weaker in most of the cases though skipping them can compensate.
      
JRec15
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Wed, 18 December 2013 18:28
Shrubmen at the very beginning of the game (like first turn) seem deadly. And with certain combinations (such as flying) would be great as well. But almost all races have certain combos that work amazing, as well as certain times of game they are best to get. I also think you are forgetting the difference in shrubmen and halflings are shrubmen have to CAPTURE the forests, and only forests. So DEFEND them if you see them coming up Smile. Halflings' immune spots can be anything. And their first one has the advantage of being anywhere on the board. Merchant shrubmen came up in a game i recently played, and they got skipped twice and never taken. It would have been decent early game but there were just better options.

Also- originally came here because i have a faun question. Does their power work on lost tribes? The rule says it works on "active" tokens, and i am not sure if that includes lost tribes. If so, they seem really good early game as well. If not.. Fauns only seem the most useful in larger games, and much less useful in 1v1.

[Updated on: Wed, 18 December 2013 18:36]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Wed, 18 December 2013 19:18
JRec15 wrote on Wed, 18 December 2013 21:28


Also- originally came here because i have a faun question. Does their power work on lost tribes? The rule says it works on "active" tokens, and i am not sure if that includes lost tribes. If so, they seem really good early game as well. If not.. Fauns only seem the most useful in larger games, and much less useful in 1v1.


Lost Tribes are permanently In Decline (hence the broken pillar on the tokens). So they don't help the Faun with their power. Similarly, Sorcerers can't convert them, and Goblins get their bonus when attacking!
      
JRec15
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Wed, 18 December 2013 19:34
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 18 December 2013 13:18

JRec15 wrote on Wed, 18 December 2013 21:28


Also- originally came here because i have a faun question. Does their power work on lost tribes? The rule says it works on "active" tokens, and i am not sure if that includes lost tribes. If so, they seem really good early game as well. If not.. Fauns only seem the most useful in larger games, and much less useful in 1v1.


Lost Tribes are permanently In Decline (hence the broken pillar on the tokens). So they don't help the Faun with their power. Similarly, Sorcerers can't convert them, and Goblins get their bonus when attacking!


Ah gotcha, i didn't realize that about goblins either that actually gives them some use early game. Thanks for clarifying!
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Wed, 18 December 2013 20:26
JRec15 wrote on Wed, 18 December 2013 18:28

Shrubmen at the very beginning of the game (like first turn) seem deadly. And with certain combinations (such as flying) would be great as well. But almost all races have certain combos that work amazing, as well as certain times of game they are best to get. I also think you are forgetting the difference in shrubmen and halflings are shrubmen have to CAPTURE the forests, and only forests. So DEFEND them if you see them coming up Smile. Halflings' immune spots can be anything. And their first one has the advantage of being anywhere on the board. Merchant shrubmen came up in a game i recently played, and they got skipped twice and never taken. It would have been decent early game but there were just better options.

Also- originally came here because i have a faun question. Does their power work on lost tribes? The rule says it works on "active" tokens, and i am not sure if that includes lost tribes. If so, they seem really good early game as well. If not.. Fauns only seem the most useful in larger games, and much less useful in 1v1.


That doesn't change much. Nobody is going to stay brisk while Shrubmen are not taken yet. Almost all races will have as a first aim to spread as much as they can and thus leaving all regions, including Forests, poorly defended. I'll say it again, unless you play very badly, you are bound to get two forests very quickly. And two is already too much compared to the Halflings. Who, by the way, if they're picked in the middle of a game, are likely to have to fight their way through even for their forst two conquests. As much, eventually, as Shrubmen who can almost always spot a poorly defended area with at least one Forest. I'll say it again and again, they're TOO strong.

As for the combo Flying Shrubmen, of course it's deadly, but as much as Flying Sorcerers. I admit and perfectly accept this kind of combo, it makes the game more thrilling from time to time. Tey are necessary. But Shrubmen don't need to have a great power to be interesting, they're like almost always interesting. Which ruins the "from time to time" thing. Anyway...

[Updated on: Wed, 18 December 2013 20:27]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Wed, 18 December 2013 23:14
I do find it interesting that you continue to say it's overpowered even though all of these people who have actually used the Race have agreed that it's not a problem...maybe it's a difference in what "Overpowered" means.

Anyway, I'm not even sure why you care! You apparently don't own the Royal expansion (since you haven't played with Shrubmen) and I'm assuming you don't have the digital version (again, since you haven't actually played with them), so why are you so adamant that this race is too strong? It doesn't even come into your games! Rolling Eyes
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Wed, 18 December 2013 23:24
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 18 December 2013 23:14

I do find it interesting that you continue to say it's overpowered even though all of these people who have actually used the Race have agreed that it's not a problem...maybe it's a difference in what "Overpowered" means.

Anyway, I'm not even sure why you care! You apparently don't own the Royal expansion (since you haven't played with Shrubmen) and I'm assuming you don't have the digital version (again, since you haven't actually played with them), so why are you so adamant that this race is too strong? It doesn't even come into your games! Rolling Eyes


I am just giving my opinion, I s'pose it is not a bad thing Wink Plus, I give it regarding the races and powers I CAN play with and that come a little overpowered or underpowered as well, although none is as much far from balance as I think this one is. Deep down I posted at first to share my inability to understand some of the designers ideas, and the Shrubmen happened to be part of it. One can assume such or such is under or overpowered basing oneself on calculations, right ? I calculated. Some may say they didn't find them overpowered, better for them. I'm stating that they are too strong IN AVERAGE, that's all. Not having something doesn't mean not being allowed to give one's opinion about it.
      
JRec15
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Wed, 18 December 2013 23:36
To throw one more comparison in the mix, i'd like to compare them to the seafaring ability. Seafarers have seas and lakes waiting for them to take, they will always be uncontested, and are then immune to combat even during decline since no other ability gives access to the water regions. Even further, the lake in the middle is probably the single best region to control because of all the places around it you now have access too. I see shrubmen's ability as on average a little worse than thise (depending on other circumstances of the game). I know thats comparing races to powers.. But my point is something similar to their ability has always been in the game, and was never "broken" before. Plus, like everything else in the game, if they are a little OP hopefully that is balanced by the cost to obtain them
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Thu, 19 December 2013 09:21
JRec15 wrote on Wed, 18 December 2013 23:36

To throw one more comparison in the mix, i'd like to compare them to the seafaring ability. Seafarers have seas and lakes waiting for them to take, they will always be uncontested, and are then immune to combat even during decline since no other ability gives access to the water regions. Even further, the lake in the middle is probably the single best region to control because of all the places around it you now have access too. I see shrubmen's ability as on average a little worse than thise (depending on other circumstances of the game). I know thats comparing races to powers.. But my point is something similar to their ability has always been in the game, and was never "broken" before. Plus, like everything else in the game, if they are a little OP hopefully that is balanced by the cost to obtain them


Yeah, but it is harder to get all three water regions than three Forests, because they're not as close to each other. Plus, unlike Shrubmen's power, occupying water regions doesn't "shrink" the map and block the other players. Let's take another comparison : White Ladies. In absolute, Shrubmen's power is equivalent to have two or three kinds of regions immune in decline. This can reach four or even five due to the fact the player can choose which regions he/she conquers. Not to mention Shrubmen can't lose their Forest while active, whereas White Ladies can lose all of their regions if they don't go in decline quickly. So either the Shrubmen are far too many, or the White Ladies are far too few. That's what leads me to thinking Shrubmen should have been 3, 4 at very most.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 December 2013 09:23]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Thu, 19 December 2013 15:48
What I have been trying to point out is that theory can only take you a little ways in a game like Small World because your theory is only looking at Shrubmen and their numbers + ability. By doing this, you are totally missing all of the vital things that make this game interesting!

You are missing the other players and their choices, you are missing the other races on the board, and most importantly, you're missing the fact that in practice in the game the Shrubmen work perfectly. Theory can only take you to a certain point, and then you must play!

Imagine if Phillipe had worked out this whole game with only theory but without playing the game! It would not be nearly the same because theory is not enough. On paper (in theory) you might be right, but in reality the Shrubmen work very well and are a fun race to add to the game.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Thu, 19 December 2013 16:06
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 19 December 2013 15:48

What I have been trying to point out is that theory can only take you a little ways in a game like Small World because your theory is only looking at Shrubmen and their numbers + ability. By doing this, you are totally missing all of the vital things that make this game interesting!

You are missing the other players and their choices, you are missing the other races on the board, and most importantly, you're missing the fact that in practice in the game the Shrubmen work perfectly. Theory can only take you to a certain point, and then you must play!

Imagine if Phillipe had worked out this whole game with only theory but without playing the game! It would not be nearly the same because theory is not enough. On paper (in theory) you might be right, but in reality the Shrubmen work very well and are a fun race to add to the game.


Seriously, d'you think I calculate and theorise like that ? Of course I take the whole game into account ! Did you even know I've been working really hard on some ideas of mine in the last year by considering different configurations, and that I must believe they're good enough because a lot of people liked them ? So according to you, I let this 3-4 number out on this forum out of pure theory, but shall I repeat I CALULATED it writing down how an average player would play with them, the points got each turn ? And that they're not the only race I've done that with ? Did you really think I was ingenuous enough to miss that vital aspect ? Why do you think I used the expression 'in average' ?

Another comparison : I think it's appropriate to compare races and powers as long as the latter give one token less. Look at Heroic and Royal. Both are equivalent to a region immune while active and in decline. You can immediatly get this single immune region with the Shrubmen, and get one or two extra Forest later. Of COURSE Shrubmen will not be the only race on the map but all I'm saying is that they give too much of an advantage.

I'm a big fan of this game and I really care about creating and playing the most balanced way I can. So please don't lecture me this way before knowing me better. Thanks ^^
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Thu, 19 December 2013 16:29
blaxnlion wrote on Thu, 19 December 2013 19:06

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 19 December 2013 15:48

What I have been trying to point out is that theory can only take you a little ways in a game like Small World because your theory is only looking at Shrubmen and their numbers + ability. By doing this, you are totally missing all of the vital things that make this game interesting!

You are missing the other players and their choices, you are missing the other races on the board, and most importantly, you're missing the fact that in practice in the game the Shrubmen work perfectly. Theory can only take you to a certain point, and then you must play!

Imagine if Phillipe had worked out this whole game with only theory but without playing the game! It would not be nearly the same because theory is not enough. On paper (in theory) you might be right, but in reality the Shrubmen work very well and are a fun race to add to the game.


Seriously, d'you think I calculate and theorise like that ? Of course I take the whole game into account ! Did you even know I've been working really hard on some ideas of mine in the last year by considering different configurations, and that I must believe they're good enough because a lot of people liked them ? So according to you, I let this 3-4 number out on this forum out of pure theory, but shall I repeat I CALULATED it writing down how an average player would play with them, the points got each turn ? And that they're not the only race I've done that with ? Did you really think I was ingenuous enough to miss that vital aspect ? Why do you think I used the expression 'in average' ?

Another comparison : I think it's appropriate to compare races and powers as long as the latter give one token less. Look at Heroic and Royal. Both are equivalent to a region immune while active and in decline. You can immediatly get this single immune region with the Shrubmen, and get one or two extra Forest later. Of COURSE Shrubmen will not be the only race on the map but all I'm saying is that they give too much of an advantage.

I'm a big fan of this game and I really care about creating and playing the most balanced way I can. So please don't lecture me this way before knowing me better. Thanks ^^


I'm glad you're a big fan, and I'm glad you enjoy creating your own races. In this case, though, you are still only working from theory and your calculations may not translate into what you expect in the real game. I'm not saying you came up with these numbers randomly and I believe that you have calculated this...but calculations without practice is still just theory.

When you say the Shrubmen are "overpowered", I understand it to mean that if someone manages to get Shrubmen, they are probably going to win. In my experience of playing with Shrubmen lots of times, this is not true! Therefore in my understanding of the word, they are not overpowered any more than other races. Of course in the right situation and at the right time they can help a player win, but the same is true for every race.

In the end, I think we might actually be debating language more than anything. I agree the Shrubmen are a strong race but I do not agree that they are "overpowered". I will continue to enjoy playing with them and it sounds like you will continue to be glad you don't have them. We will both have fun with Small World and that is the real point of all of this!

Happy holidays and have fun with this great game! Cool
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Small World Royal Bonus expansion (+ Leaders & Necromancer Island) Thu, 19 December 2013 16:36
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 19 December 2013 16:29

blaxnlion wrote on Thu, 19 December 2013 19:06

rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 19 December 2013 15:48

What I have been trying to point out is that theory can only take you a little ways in a game like Small World because your theory is only looking at Shrubmen and their numbers + ability. By doing this, you are totally missing all of the vital things that make this game interesting!

You are missing the other players and their choices, you are missing the other races on the board, and most importantly, you're missing the fact that in practice in the game the Shrubmen work perfectly. Theory can only take you to a certain point, and then you must play!

Imagine if Phillipe had worked out this whole game with only theory but without playing the game! It would not be nearly the same because theory is not enough. On paper (in theory) you might be right, but in reality the Shrubmen work very well and are a fun race to add to the game.


Seriously, d'you think I calculate and theorise like that ? Of course I take the whole game into account ! Did you even know I've been working really hard on some ideas of mine in the last year by considering different configurations, and that I must believe they're good enough because a lot of people liked them ? So according to you, I let this 3-4 number out on this forum out of pure theory, but shall I repeat I CALULATED it writing down how an average player would play with them, the points got each turn ? And that they're not the only race I've done that with ? Did you really think I was ingenuous enough to miss that vital aspect ? Why do you think I used the expression 'in average' ?

Another comparison : I think it's appropriate to compare races and powers as long as the latter give one token less. Look at Heroic and Royal. Both are equivalent to a region immune while active and in decline. You can immediatly get this single immune region with the Shrubmen, and get one or two extra Forest later. Of COURSE Shrubmen will not be the only race on the map but all I'm saying is that they give too much of an advantage.

I'm a big fan of this game and I really care about creating and playing the most balanced way I can. So please don't lecture me this way before knowing me better. Thanks ^^


I'm glad you're a big fan, and I'm glad you enjoy creating your own races. In this case, though, you are still only working from theory and your calculations may not translate into what you expect in the real game. I'm not saying you came up with these numbers randomly and I believe that you have calculated this...but calculations without practice is still just theory.

When you say the Shrubmen are "overpowered", I understand it to mean that if someone manages to get Shrubmen, they are probably going to win. In my experience of playing with Shrubmen lots of times, this is not true! Therefore in my understanding of the word, they are not overpowered any more than other races. Of course in the right situation and at the right time they can help a player win, but the same is true for every race.

In the end, I think we might actually be debating language more than anything. I agree the Shrubmen are a strong race but I do not agree that they are "overpowered". I will continue to enjoy playing with them and it sounds like you will continue to be glad you don't have them. We will both have fun with Small World and that is the real point of all of this!

Happy holidays and have fun with this great game! Cool



Yeah, that's what's cool ^^ May I remind everybody here, that I was just giving my opinion like others gave theirs about other races and powers, and this thread seemed more appropriate to me.

To be sincere, if I could play with them, I wouldn't just because it wouldn't be fair to me, especially while playing against beginners.
      
    
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