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léachris -
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Open tournament Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31
We are organizing, Vinz and I an open tournament

That means that almost anybobdy can join it
the rules are

- no guests ( so that any game can be created Wink )
- at least 4 of karma ( we don't need quitters )
- of course blocking is allowed
- 32 players : the 32 first registered will be in
- only games for 2
- opponents randomly chosen
- one round is played in 5 games ( best of 5 )
- one round must be finished in 3 days (2 rounds per week)
( opponents schedule their games by PM )

- the tournament will begin after the 15th of june
( we want to wait for the end of the 2 first rounds of the other tournament
but we can't wait more because in july , many players are on holidays )

Who is interested ?
      
redPEPPER
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Re:Open tournament Tue, 24 May 2005 14:13
léachris écrit le Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31

- at least 4 of karma ( we don't need quitters )
This is so elitist! How about those below 4 karma? Don't hey have a right to play too?

This is not very democratic.

      
léachris -
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Re:Open tournament Tue, 24 May 2005 15:12
redPEPPER écrit le Tue, 24 May 2005 14:13

léachris écrit le Tue, 24 May 2005 13:31

- at least 4 of karma ( we don't need quitters )
This is so elitist!

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Quote:

How about those below 4 karma? Don't hey have a right to play too?)


they're allowed to play enough games (without quitting) until their registration.
And if they can't, they can ask us Wink




      
Ben Roimola
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Re:Open tournament Tue, 24 May 2005 15:54
l?hris wrote on Tue, 24 May 2005 14:31

Who is interested ?


I am! But, I will be unable to play June 16th - June 20th. Would this be a problem?
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Tue, 24 May 2005 16:26
Ben Roimola écrit le Tue, 24 May 2005 15:54

l?hris wrote on Tue, 24 May 2005 14:31

Who is interested ?


I am! But, I will be unable to play June 16th - June 20th. Would this be a problem?


Shouldn't be... we are now talking of June, 20th as a start date. To be confirmed.
I put you on the list !

We have something like 10/12 slots still available.
      
Peter de Zeeuw
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Re:Open tournament Tue, 24 May 2005 16:45
Léachris, I love your idea! Surprised

If the doctors think that I'm ready and if you and Vinz allow me to, then I'll be glad to join your Open Tournament!

Greetings,

D.I.S. (a.k.a. your little Peter)
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Tue, 24 May 2005 23:02
Peter, I'm adding your name to the list right now !
welcome aboard !
      
Optimus
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 01:54
DarkAngel1000 wants to sign in too. She read the german post and doesn't speak foreign languages. She appears in the forum as Spieler67204 but in the lobby and the games she is DarkAngel1000.

[Updated on: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:04]

      
travisjhall
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 04:50
léachris, I'm not interested in playing the tournament (if I wanted tournament play, I'd go back to the chess tournaments, besides certain other difficulties), but I do have a few suggestions.

Firstly, would you consider changing your tournament format a little to use a Swiss draw? That way, you don't need the number of players to be a power of 2. Also, everybody would get to play all the rounds, and lower-ranked players who aren't likely to make the finals can get some competitive satisfaction from their final standings.

Secondly, I am willing to offer my services as a draw-maker/tournament director. This would allow you and Vinz to play while still having a neutral tournament director. Acting as director would fit in with my life much better than playing. After all, the major duty would be draw-creation, and that's something I can do in only a few minutes. I have run tournaments before (FTF, though, not online - I did act as a PBEM moderator for a little while), and am competent with the application of Swiss draw, if you care to use that. I used to run Magic tournaments for my gaming club, back before being a WotC-certified judge was a requirement, again largely because I was the person not interested in playing tournaments.

I don't want to steal your thunder, though. It's up to you guys whether you want someone else to act as tournament director, or if you want to modify the tournament format.
      
léachris -
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 10:14
tjandjahall écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 04:50

but I do have a few suggestions.
thank you for your help
Quote:

Firstly, would you consider changing your tournament format a little to use a Swiss draw? That way, you don't need the number of players to be a power of 2.
Tell me more, what is a swiss draw ? Will it last longer than what we scheduled ?
Quote:


Secondly, I am willing to offer my services as a draw-maker/tournament director.
I must ask vinz, but why not !

thank you tjandjahall

we'll answer soon
      
Peter de Zeeuw
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 10:17
Optimus wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 01:54

DarkAngel1000 wants to sign in too. He read the german post and doesn't speak foreign languages. He appears in the forum as Spieler67204 but in the lobby and the games he is DarkAngel1000.



Ehmmm... Optimus? I played a few matches against DarkAngel1000 and there was also a little PM contact, but as far as I know it's a WOMAN.

Just thought you should know. Grin

D.I.S.
      
Optimus
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 11:03
Peter de Zeeuw schrieb am Thu, 26 May 2005 10:17

Optimus wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 01:54

DarkAngel1000 wants to sign in too. He read the german post and doesn't speak foreign languages. He appears in the forum as Spieler67204 but in the lobby and the games he is DarkAngel1000.



Ehmmm... Optimus? I played a few matches against DarkAngel1000 and there was also a little PM contact, but as far as I know it's a WOMAN.

Just thought you should know. Grin

D.I.S.



Embarassed Sorry, won't happen again!
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 11:51
Optimus écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 01:54

DarkAngel1000 wants to sign in too. She read the german post and doesn't speak foreign languages. She appears in the forum as Spieler67204 but in the lobby and the games she is DarkAngel1000.




OK Opti !
you can tell darkangel1000, she had been added. Wink
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 11:58
tjandjahall écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 04:50

léachris, I'm not interested in playing the tournament (if I wanted tournament play, I'd go back to the chess tournaments, besides certain other difficulties), but I do have a few suggestions.

Firstly, would you consider changing your tournament format a little to use a Swiss draw? That way, you don't need the number of players to be a power of 2. Also, everybody would get to play all the rounds, and lower-ranked players who aren't likely to make the finals can get some competitive satisfaction from their final standings.

I don't want to steal your thunder, though. It's up to you guys whether you want someone else to act as tournament director, or if you want to modify the tournament format.


I must be honnest... I have no idea what is a "swiss draw" tournament ! Embarassed
is it this kinf of tournament where if you loose on the first round, you play a "parallel" tournament that can lead you (if you win it) to re-enter in the major one ?

The thing that we consider as the most important, isds the timing issue. As a lot of people is going to leave for vacations... But if it has no impact (which means more or less that the tournament can be over by mid july as a maximum, why not ?
Can you tell us more about this "swiss" thing ? (I usually like things coming from swiss... especially chocolate !)

And yes, any help is welcome ! Laughing
      
redPEPPER
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 13:55
A swiss draw is a compromise between direct elimination and round-robin (where everybody plays everybody else). The system is not as simple as the other two though. Basically, in each match you are paired with someone of your own strength (for the first round: based on your ranking; for the other rounds: based on the results of the previous rounds) and you never play the same person twice.

In order to seed players properly on successive rounds, not only is victory taken into account but so is the score difference (to break ties).

This goes on for a sufficient number of rounds. Often, an elimination process is done with swiss draw, then the 8 best players are qualified for a classic direct elimination tournament.

Advantages:
- Everybody plays several matches (one match per swiss draw round).
- You can mess up and make up for it later (by being extra good)
- Works with any number of players
- Independent of your current ranking, save for the first round
- Your final ranking is more precise and more reliable than with direct elimination.
- Takes score difference into account, not only victories.

Disadvantages:
- More rounds than direct elimination, depending on the number of rounds of the swiss draw.
- Harder to implement and organize
- Takes score difference into account, not only victories.

An alternative with swiss draw is that, instead of playing best of 5 or 7, you could play just one match, and make a lot of rounds. The problem would be that we'd lose a lot of time scheduling matches between rounds.

Another possibility could be to play a round-robin with one match per round. For, say, 32 players that would "only" be 31 matches. The organization would be easier and up to each player: you know you gotta play everybody once. Then you could have direct elimination for the top 4 or 8 with 5- or 7-game rounds. Just to compare for 32 players: round-robin + semi-finals + final = 45 matches (31 matches + 2 rounds), direct elimination = 35 matches (5 rounds)

I'm just throwing some ideas here.
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 14:12
Thanks redPEPPER for the explanation.

I think for the first open we'll stick to the rule "simpler is better" ! Razz
Two reasons to this :
- time --> I'm afraid swiss draw will require more games
- the first round where we really wanted that anyone could meet anyone (and not based on rank)

But, I keep the idea for the second open !!!
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 16:45
vinz wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 08:12

Thanks redPEPPER for the explanation.

I think for the first open we'll stick to the rule "simpler is better" ! Razz
Two reasons to this :
- time --> I'm afraid swiss draw will require more games
- the first round where we really wanted that anyone could meet anyone (and not based on rank)

But, I keep the idea for the second open !!!






For what it's worth, I like the Swiss draw idea and would definitely play it if y'all choose to set it up in the future.
      
bassie
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 18:04
I also have the feeling that, if well-organised, a Swiss tournament could work for most of us. Anyone could be able to join and the strong players should only have to play a round or two until they would only meet other strong players.

So, we might organise the fourth tournament (probably in August) like this:

- one gets its first opponent by rank* (first plays last, second plays next to last, etc);
- from the second round on, we play Swiss**;
- we play 6-7 rounds;
- one plays 3-5 matches to each opponent;
- to add to the excitement, we might end with two final rounds: nr 1 plays nr 4, nr 2 plays nr 3, and both winners play eachother in the final (regardless if they have played each other before in the tournament). these rounds should take some more matches, for instance best-of-nine.

Apart from guest players, anyone with karma 4 or higher can join.

The only thing we need is a non-playing tournament director (tjandjahall?). But well, let us see first how things go in the second and third tournament...

* One could choose other rules, but at least this one is clear.
** To make it easier to plan later rounds of the tourney, we could take points difference into account, apart from nr of victories.
      
redPEPPER
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 19:27
bassie écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 18:04

- one gets its first opponent by rank* (first plays last, second plays next to last, etc);

I believe it's more like first plays second, third plays fourth, and so on (I just notice you need an even number of players).

For the second round and next we'd totally ditch the ranks and go only by the tournament scores. Each win gives 3 points, a tie is worth 1 point and the losers get nothing. People with identical scores are sorted out with the total point differences of all their matches. Again, people are paired by score, without playing someone they already played.

There could be any number of matches per round, even or odd. We wouldn't play "best of n" though, we'd have to play all the matches. Ideally it should be only 1 match. Practically it might be better to play several matches in each round since you have to wait to see who you're gonna play next between each round (i.e. you've got to wait that everybody's finished, then someone gathers the scores, computes the ranking and pairs players for the next round)

The fun thing is that you've got a complete ranking at the end of each round!

[Updated on: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:28]

      
léachris -
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 19:50
I'm amazed that so many people have ideas on how to organize a tournament.
I only took the rules of the first existing tournament (removing what I didn't like Wink )

I think there are going to be many tournaments in future and I think that's great that online TTR players can finally become a real community !

Long life to our community !
      
akrasia
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Re:Open tournament Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20
Swiss draw sounds interesting. I'm not familiar with it.

The one thing that sounds wrong is taking score difference into account. The game is to win, 1pt or 100pts is the same result.
      
redPEPPER
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 00:01
rek{} écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20

The one thing that sounds wrong is taking score difference into account. The game is to win, 1pt or 100pts is the same result.
Yep, that's why I listed that as a disadvantage of swiss draw.

On the other hand, winning by a landslide or by a neck, that's different. Keeping in mind that victories count first and that scores are only taken into account to sort out the ties, it's a good way to bring additional finesse to the ratings.

So I also listed it as an advantage of swiss draw.
      
travisjhall
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 03:33
redPEPPER wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 08:01

rek{} écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20

The one thing that sounds wrong is taking score difference into account. The game is to win, 1pt or 100pts is the same result.
Yep, that's why I listed that as a disadvantage of swiss draw.

On the other hand, winning by a landslide or by a neck, that's different. Keeping in mind that victories count first and that scores are only taken into account to sort out the ties, it's a good way to bring additional finesse to the ratings.

So I also listed it as an advantage of swiss draw.

Actually, tracking game scores is not a standard feature of a Swiss draw, though it is a mechanic that can be used in conjunction with a Swiss draw. (Accumulated game-score-differences might be used to produce ranking within a score-group, instead of using elo rating, after the first round, and it might be used to as the second tie-break criteria at the end of the tournament, after a comparison of games played against each other. Those are pretty weak uses, though, so I wouldn't consider them terribly objectionable.)

The defining feature of a Swiss draw is that each player has a tournament score (typically 1 point per win, 0.5 points per draw, 0 points per loss) and that in each round, players are matched against other players with the same score, but pairings are never repeated. If players in a score-group cannot be matched against each other (usually because a score-group contains an odd number of players, sometimes because players have played previously), they will be "floated" to the next score-group, to keep the pairings as even as possible.

For a tournament with 32 players and five rounds, Swiss draw is effectively a single-elimination (one loss and you're out) tournament with an opportunity for those who can't win the tournament to keep playing for a "tied second". Out of 32 players, there will be an undefeated champion at the end of 5 rounds. (Ignoring the possibility of a drawn game.) Six rounds would give someone who loses one game a chance of still winning or tying for first place if the undefeated player loses in the sixth round. (Often, a tie-breaker is used to produce an outright tournament winner. For example, if the two players tied for top place have played in the tournament, the player who won that match might be declared tournament winner.) Seven rounds will give a player who has lost a game a chance to win outright - depending on whether the 5-round champion can keep his winning streak going.

Also, a Swiss tournament lets you sort out ranking below the outright winner, at least to an extent. (In one tournament I played, I ended up in a seven-way tie for a divisional prize, and walked away with a cheque for $14.29. I think the entry fee was $25.) In a single-elimination tournament, the "second-place" player is really just the top-seeded player amongst those who only lost one game. In a Swiss tournament, this isn't so.

Obviously, a Swiss tournament would be a little longer than a single-elimination tournament for the same number of players. However, a seven-round swiss tournament is quite effective for around 32 players, and that's only an extra week of play in the case of 3-day rounds - a lot less than the 31 rounds of a round-robin tournament! Typically, I think an n-round Swiss tournament will work well for up to 2^(n-2) players. For up to 2^(n-1) players, it isn't as good but probably still better than single-elimination.

In chess tournaments, it is typical to construct the first round draw by ranking the players according to rating (that's your elo score in TTR Online), dividing the tournament into a "top half" and a "bottom half", and then matching the top player in the top half against the top player in the bottom half, the second player in the top half against the bottom player in the bottom half, and so on until everyone is paired. The idea is to lessen the chance of an early upset, and thus produce more even matches as the game goes on. (Chess players don't like for a tournament to take a low-ranked player at the bottom of the table, give him a lucky win in the first round, and then see him get seriously thrashed for the next three rounds. This can be discouraging and lacking in fun for the low-ranker. That still happens, of course, but that particular first-round draw reduces the frequency.) As far as the tournament standings at the end go, in a Swiss tournament the initial pairings really don't matter much, if at all.

A set of rules and procedures for running Swiss-draw chess tournaments can be found at http://www.swissperfect.com/handbook/c_04.txt (though I can't promise this is FIDE's latest version). Note that colour preferences have an equivalent in TTR. It could be argued that the starting player in two-player TTR has a slight advantage. In chess, the white player is the starting player, and is generally considered to have a slight advantage. If I was organising a FtF tournament, I might assign starting players according to similar "colour preference" rules. However, the online game randomly chooses a starting player, so we can't do that.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:33]

      
akrasia
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 03:37
Thanks! This sounds pretty good. I'll have to read all the details. Definitely more effort to manage the whole thing, but if you are volunteering... Smile
      
travisjhall
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 03:51
léachris wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 03:50

I'm amazed that so many people have ideas on how to organize a tournament.

We've barely scratched the surface. Swiss draw is a nice system, but there's also n-elimination (for n>1), play-offs, draw systems for n-player games (for n>2 - say, if players want to try playing a tournament for 4-player games)...

Let me know whether you and Vinz want me to act as tournament director. I'm prepared to do this even if that tournament remains single-elimination, though there isn't really much work to be done to run a single-elimination tournament.
      
léachris -
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 08:16
tjandjahall écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 03:51


Let me know whether you and Vinz want me to act as tournament director. I'm prepared to do this even if that tournament remains single-elimination, though there isn't really much work to be done to run a single-elimination tournament.


YES YES YES

vinz already answered your question but you know, men are sometimes not easy to understand when they say things Wink :

vinz écrit le Thu, 26 May 2005 11:58

And yes, any help is welcome ! Laughing


      
Optimus
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 10:24
Falke and Lexion from the german forum would like to sign in the open tournament, too. How many players can still join?

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:24]

      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 12:44
léachris écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 08:16

tjandjahall écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 03:51


Let me know whether you and Vinz want me to act as tournament director. I'm prepared to do this even if that tournament remains single-elimination, though there isn't really much work to be done to run a single-elimination tournament.


YES YES YES

vinz already answered your question but you know, men are sometimes not easy to understand when they say things Wink :



tjandjahall, YES YES YES !!! Very Happy
we will continue with the direct elimination scheme for this open.
As soon as I have the 32 slots filled, I'll send you the list of the name to randomly sort the 1st round if you don't mind !

Thanks again for your help ! Much appreciated !!!! Razz
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 12:47
Optimus écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 10:24

Falke and Lexion from the german forum would like to sign in the open tournament, too. How many players can still join?


They are in !
We still have 3 slots opened... and I need a confirmation from Zugbegleiterin (I saw an intention in a post but can't remember where...)
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 13:02
tjandjahall : just a reminder on a few rules of this open ! (and to help you in your "sherrif" function Very Happy )

- No guest ! (they can't create a game...)
- minimum karma of 4 (we don't want players leaving the game after a bad draw !)
- ranking doesn't matter
- 2 players game
- match game of the 1st round are based on a random draw (then it's a "classic" direct elimination board)
- one round is won at best of 5 games until 1/4 final, then best of 7.
- 1/16th and 1/8th must be played within a week (3 days alllowed for each one, in order to end the tournament before the vacations of everybody...)
- blocking is allowed !
- Once the list of players is complete, tjandjahall is THE BOSS. We can't discuss his drawing !!!
- as soon as 3 games have been won, one of the 2 opponents has to PM tjandjahall the result

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:41]

      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 13:04
Players :
1- léachris (44)
2- jacqueline (260)
3- vinz (721)
4- olivier27 (1906)
5- salutos (914)
6- pat's jumelle (1572)
7- chrigu
8- lotusardent (227)
9- grenouillette (3016)
10- kris&caro 44 (1611)
11- Zugbegleiterin (8 )
12- orc&roll (82)
13- beshop (609)
14- vegas (1664)
15- optimus (19)
16- grolapinos (50)
17- redPEPPER (826)
18- gwen (46)
19- montezuma (2913)
20- thaddäus (69)
21- Ben Roimola (1984)
22- Peter de Zeeuw (207)
23- nico06 (395)
24- bassie (118)
25- lorus (737)
26- Spieler67204 (darkangel1000 : 4310)
27- Rode katers (229)
28- Razamanaz (13)
29- Falke (482)
30- Lexion (184)
31-
32-

Positions remaining : 31 - 32


number within parenthesis is ranking on 05/27

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:35]

      
Peter de Zeeuw
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 13:08
So far the list looks great. Not many "real" top players, but that's ok. There are a lot of nice and interesting people competing who I would love to play against.

Well done, Vinz!

D.I.S.
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37
Peter de Zeeuw écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 13:08

So far the list looks great. Not many "real" top players, but that's ok. There are a lot of nice and interesting people competing who I would love to play against.

Well done, Vinz!



Thanks !

Do you know a quick way to retrieve the ranking of every players ??? (just to know where we are...)
      
Franck
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 14:16
vinz écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37

Do you know a quick way to retrieve the ranking of every players ??? (just to know where we are...)

Try the new top feature Wink
Search by login was added yesterday (Communities->Find Other players then click on the "login search" tab)

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:17]

      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 15:09
Franck écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 14:16

vinz écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37

Do you know a quick way to retrieve the ranking of every players ??? (just to know where we are...)

Try the new top feature Wink
Search by login was added yesterday (Communities->Find Other players then click on the "login search" tab)



You guys at DOW are just amazing...
Congrats to all the team ! Surprised
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 15:23
Franck wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 08:16

vinz écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 13:37

Do you know a quick way to retrieve the ranking of every players ??? (just to know where we are...)

Try the new top feature Wink
Search by login was added yesterday (Communities->Find Other players then click on the "login search" tab)




Very nice concept, but when I tried to type in several names (just to test it) I got nothing. The page just refreshes.
      
vinz
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 15:25
SKMorefield écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 15:23



Very nice concept, but when I tried to type in several names (just to test it) I got nothing. The page just refreshes.


it did worked for me... I've updated the player list with ranking for information purpose only !
      
SKMorefield
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 16:08
vinz wrote on Fri, 27 May 2005 09:25

SKMorefield écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 15:23



Very nice concept, but when I tried to type in several names (just to test it) I got nothing. The page just refreshes.


it did worked for me... I've updated the player list with ranking for information purpose only !




Oh, I was typing 'enter' instead of clicking 'ok'. When you type the name and 'enter' it will refresh the page for some reason. Gotcha. Thanks!
      
léachris -
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 16:53
+1 alektacrome

[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:51]

      
léachris -
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Re:Open tournament Fri, 27 May 2005 16:58
vinz écrit le Fri, 27 May 2005 13:02

- 1/16th and 1/8th must be played within a week (3 days alllowed for each one, in order to end the tournament before the vacations of everybody...)


I would even be more precise

1/16th : 20-21-22 and 1/8th : 24-25-26

so that tjandjahall has time on the 23th to schedule the 1/16th games, do you agree vinz ?

      
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