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Brycie35
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 18 August 2006 10:46
tank commander wrote on Sat, 12 August 2006 06:34

If these is an expansion for the Brits, these remains one question -- perhaps it should be put to a vote. What tank should be selected to represent them? One of the above posts suggested the Matilda.

The British tank program was a bit complicated. Seems that they could not decide on one model.

Whereas the Germans had the Mk IV, the Russians the T-34 and the Americans the Sherman, the Brits had numerous models. Even the Italians settled on the M13/40. I do not count the Japanese as armor was not a main consideration in their operations (not w/o reason though).

So I submit the following for anyone wishing to vote on which model should do the honors.

(Model / years made / # made)

1) Matilda / 38-43 / 2900+

2) Crusader / 39-43 / 5700

3) Cromwell / 42-44 / 3400

4) Valentine / 39-44 / 6800

5) Churchill / 41-45 / 5600

By sheer numbers, the Valentine leads the pack. It also was in service for most of the war AND produced every year of the war except 1945. So, I think I would cast my vote for that model.



My vote is also for the most produced Tank the Valentine II to be the British tank figure. While I also think the 25-Pounder should be the Artillery piece.
      
jmkinki
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Wed, 23 August 2006 14:56
I don't write in this forum so many time ago but I think it's a good idea a new expansion with british and italian figures at least(french ones too)!

      
GreatDane
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Wed, 23 August 2006 19:10
Not likely that we will see any new expansions after the case - as DoW and RB will be busy designing and producing their new baby - the C&C Fantasy game Battlelore.
      
Jim57
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Wed, 23 August 2006 20:42
I have been reading this post and I too would like to see British/Canadian/Australian troops. BUT, even "IF" they never make/add British troops, a set of British Troops can be substituted/used using Italeri British Commandos (IT6064)
and there are 50 men in a box and are a "tan" colour. Italeri also makes a British paratrooper (IT6034) set also with 50 men in the box and are a "tan" colour.


Just a thought... Smile

Jim
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Wed, 23 August 2006 21:10
GreatDane wrote on Wed, 23 August 2006 12:10

Not likely that we will see any new expansions after the case - as DoW and RB will be busy designing and producing their new baby - the C&C Fantasy game Battlelore.

I don't think that is necessarily true. Granted, it is probably why we haven't seen any new scenarios come out. But they wouldn't cut of their nose to spite their face - in other words - they wouldn't stop producing memoir 44 expansions and just do battle lore. You are reaching two, though possibly overlapping, game groups. M44 is still going to have a market even after BL gets going. Having Ancients available didn't stop me from getting pacific theater.

I would be highly disappointed if we DON'T see a British expansion to this set.
      
eric
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Wed, 23 August 2006 23:24
Mik,
The pipeline for Memoir '44 expansions is as big, if not bigger, than it ever has. I would not lose any sleep over it. Smile
As for the rest, I usually don't believe all that I read on the Internet. Rolling Eyes
eric

[Updated on: Wed, 23 August 2006 23:27]

      
Nordiskanc
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Thu, 24 August 2006 00:04
Eric,
You comments have reassured me Very Happy , in reference to future Memoir '44 expansions and as well as all the rumors on "Fantasy Bigfoot". I, for one, am waiting until Essen. Cool

[Updated on: Thu, 24 August 2006 04:47]

      
leonnez
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Thu, 24 August 2006 01:10
Adding British and Italian figures to Memoir44 would be great.

For now, and for special forces, I have been using the British, German, and American figures from my Axis & Allies D-Day game and they look great, along with being same size as Memoir44 figures.

      
phenoman
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 25 August 2006 13:09
eric schrieb am Wed, 23 August 2006 23:24

Mik,
The pipeline for Memoir '44 expansions is as big, if not bigger, than it ever has. I would not lose any sleep over it. Smile
As for the rest, I usually don't believe all that I read on the Internet. Rolling Eyes
eric



WOW! Great news!!! Keep us updated Wink
      
Jsum79
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Mon, 28 August 2006 02:41
I was thinking how great it would be to have a real race to Rome with the Allies. Patton. check Monty. hmmm Italians. hmmm More Desert and Italian scenarios. hmmm. Anyway, Santa Borg and Days of Wonder, I am pleading like the rest. Please let the next expansion be the Brits and the Italians. Keep printing those official Scenario even if you have to put them in a book and sell them. Let's have em. You guys are doing great work and I really enjoy playing all my Days of Wonder games. Very Happy
      
NastyNatsy
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sun, 03 September 2006 15:39
Well you WOULD see the Italians before the French.......they run faster!
      
yangtze
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Mon, 04 September 2006 17:22
The Churchill looks cooler than the Valentine though, and it's a very 'British' kind of tank, in name and looks...
      
Toothless9
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 05 September 2006 03:58
My vote would be for the Matildas. Oh, and more North African scenarios.
      
Mr & Mrs Guderian
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 15 September 2006 22:52
Dear All,

I would like to repeat my desire for 1940 British Infantrymen, not North Africa or 1944 ones. I would always opt for the Churchill Tank, although I would concede that the Matilda is a close second. I certainly wouldn't be interested in the Valentine. I don't think that anyone has questioned the 25-Pounder for Artillery. Its the obvious, best choice.

The real reason why I am writing is that ever since I first read this post, I realised that no-one has raised the question of what were the best Scenario's to play for the British. I have compiled the following list of British & Commonwealth Scenarios. Please forgive me if I missed any:

Official Scenario's Already Published:
North Africa, Gallabat & Metemma, 06NOV1940, Scenario #28A, Official Scanario
Operation Compass, Beda Fomm, 05-07FEB1941, Scenario #46A, Official Scanario
North Africa, Battle of Gazala, Knightsbridge, 12JUN1942, Scenario #34A, Official Scanario
Dieppe, Yellow Beach, 19AUG1942, Scenario #29A, Official Scanario
D-Day, Pegasus Bridge, 06JUN1944, Scenario #01, Standard Scenario
D-Day, Gold Beach, 06JUN1944, Scenario #20A, Official Scanario
D-Day, Juno Beach, 06JUN1944, Scenario #19A, Official Scanario
D-Day, Sword Beach, 06JUN1944, Scenario #03A, Official Scanario
D-Day, Sword Beach, 06JUN1944, Scenario #03o, Overlord Scenario
Normandy, Operation Goodwood, 18-20JUL1944, Scenario #18A, Official Scenario
Normandy, Operation Spring, 25JUL1944, Scenario #22A, Official Scenario
Normandy, Battle of the Bridgehead, 07-09JUN1944, Scenario #1527A, Official Scenario by Brummbar
Market-Garden, Valkenseaard, 17SEP1944, Scenario #48A, Official Scanario
Market-Garden, Arnhem Bridge, 17-19SEP1944, Scenario #13, Standard Scenario
Operation Veritable, Moyland Wood, 17-20FEB1945, Scenario #33A, Official Scanario

"The War" - Single Board Scenario's From The Front - British Versus Germans (And Italians, too):
1940, Dunkirk, Operation Dynamo, 31MAY-03JUN1940, Scenario #1759U by yangtze
1940, England, Operation Sealion, 01 West, 22SEP1940, Scenario #1834U by cardacarsh
1940, England, Operation Sealion, 02 East, 22SEP1940, Scenario #1835U by cardacarsh
Crete, Operation Merkur, Maleme Sector, 20MAY1941, Scenario #1655U by Leo-T
Crete, Battle of Crete, Maleme, 20MAY1941, Scenario #2300U by Brycie35
Crete, Battle of Crete, Babali Hani, 28MAY1941, Scenario #2307U by Brycie35
North Africa, Tobruk, 11APR1941, Scenario #1265U by stuka pilot
North Africa, Siege of Tobruk, 14APR1941, Scenario #2166U by Brycie35
North Africa, Operation Crusader, Ariete Resistence, Battle of Bir El Gobi, 19NOV1941, Scenario #1849U by benedetto70
North Africa, Totensontag, Biggest Tank Battle in North Africa, 23NOV1941, Scenario #1914U by benedetto70
North Africa, Operation Crusader, Point 175, 23NOV1941, Scenario #2194U by Brycie35
North Africa, Bardia, 31DEC1941-02JAN1942, Scenario #1646U by yangtze
North Africa, The Siege of Giarabub, The Final Assault, 21MAR1942, Scenario #2002U by benedetto70
North Africa, Gazala Line, Rommels Turning Point, 27MAY1942, Scenario #1725U by Cantata
North Africa, Operation Venezia, El Adem, 27MAY1942, Scenario #2224U by Brycie35
North Africa, Battle of Alam Halfa, 31AUG1942, Scenario #2240U by Brycie35
North Africa, Battle of Alam Halfa, Point 102, 01SEP1942, Scenario #2243U by Brycie35
North Africa, Alam Halfa, Rommels Advance, 02SEP1942, Scenario #1571U by player140155
North Africa, El Alamein, Operation Lightfoot, 23-25OCT1942, Scenario #1595U by Leo-T
North Africa, El Alamein, The Aussie's Attack, 28-31OCT1942, Scenario #1601U by Leo-T
North Africa, El Alamein, Monty's Breakout, 01-02NOV1942, Scenario #1555U by eker
North Africa, El Alamein, Operation Supercharge, 01-04NOV1942, Scenario #1652U by yangtze
France, Operation Biting, Wurzburg Radar, 27-28FEB1942, Scenario #1700U by mammuthka
France, Disaster at Dieppe, 19AUG1942, Scenario #1075U by Brummbar
Monte Cassino, Third Battle of Cassino, New Zealand II Corps Tries Again, 15-19MAR1944, Scenario #2334U by goverby
Monte Cassino, Operation Diadem, The Final Assault On Monte Cassino, 11-12MAY1944, Scenario #2423U by Epicurean
D-Day, Pegasus Bridge Variant, 06JUN1944, Scenario #2229U by patryk713
D-Day, Juno Beach, 7th Brigade, 06JUN1944, Scenario #1142U by Brummbar
D-Day, Juno Beach, 8th Brigade, 06JUN1944, Scenario #1160U by Brummbar
Normandy, Forward to Caen, 08JUN1944, Scenario #1058U by tpskeet
Normandy, Villers-Bocage, Wittmann Runs Amok, 13JUN1944, Scenario #1617U by yangtze
Normandy, Battle of the Brigade Box, 14JUN1944, Scenario #1618U by yangtze
Normandy, Carpiquet Airfield, 04-05JUL1944, Scenario #1178U by KippRyon
Normandy, Hill 112, The Verdun of Normandy, 10-11JUL1944, Scenario #1558U by yangtze
Normandy, Battle Plan Julius, Saint-Pierre-le-Vieille, 08AUG1944, Scenario #1557U by JunKie
Market-Garden, "Out of Ammo. God save the King", 16SEP1944, Scenario #1246U by Jimzik
Market-Garden, Arnhem Bridge Variant, 18-20SEP1944, Scenario #1005U by Ubergeek

"Big Battles" - Overlord Scenario's - Scenario's From The Front - British Versus Germans:
North Africa, Second Battle of El Alamein, 23OCT-03NOV1942, Scenario #2278U by Brycie35
D-Day, Juno Beach, Advanced, 06JUN1944, Scenario #2012U by Brummbar
D-Day, Juno Beach, Basic, 06JUN1944, Scenario #2016U by Brummbar
Normandy, Operation Jupiter, 28JUN-23JUL1944, Scenario #1131u by KippRyon

"The Forgotten Army" - Scenario's From The Front - British Versus Japanese:
Burma, Kohima - The Siege, The British/Indian Thermopylae, 05-20APR1944, Scenario #1976U by yangtze
Burma, Kohima - The Relief, The British/Indian Thermopylae, 05-20APR1944, Scenario #1978U by yangtze

Suggestions For New Authorised Scenarios:
1940, Counter-Attack at Arras, First Encounter with Rommel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arras_%281940%29
1940, Sideshow at Narvik - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Narvik#Land_battle
1942, St Nazaire, Operation Chariot, "The Greatest Raid Of All". Real hero stuff. This is an absolute must-have, especially for anyone that liked Raid On St Nazaire, possible using the Pacific Theatre rules - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nazaire_Raid
1944, Operation Market Garden, "A Bridge Too Far". Entire campaign as an Overlord Scenario, lengthways along the board.
1944, Battle of Imphal. (versus Japanese) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Imphal
1945, Operation Plunder, In Enemy Territory - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plunder

I would also say that some of the Battles featured in Scenarios From The Front should be turned into Authorised ones. Dunkirk, Crete, either Tobruk Sieges, Alam Halfa, and Monte Cassino would all make really good Single-Board Scenarios. Brycie35's version of El Alamein is a really good idea for the Overlord game. El Alamein is definately the turning point for the British during the War. There are plenty of forgotten battles in the Far East that could be used as well.

There are 58 Scenarios listed above, including 15 Authorised ones. A tribute to the efforts of so many. Memoir '44 has been very generous with British/Commonwealth Scenarios. Personally, I think it is only fair to include the Commonwealth, especially ANZAC and Canadian forces. I certainly wouldn't exclude others such as the South African, Indian Army or African contributions to the war effort. I think that the first of these predominated in North Africa and the other two in the Far East. I am sure that there are some experts who will rush forward to correct me and I can only ask that they generate some Scenario's to prove their points.

Does anyone have any thoughts?
      
Mr & Mrs Guderian
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sat, 16 September 2006 12:53
Dear All,

My apologies but it would seem that I missed one, which is probably just as well. I think it deserves special mention for its originality - a mini-campaign in three parts set in Italy between the Canadians and Germans. It is very well researched and written.

It is intriguing to wonder if the Canadian player can win all three or is stopped dead at some point, maybe in the first game, by the German player. I suspect that a marathon game of all three will leave both players feeling almost as frazzled as the real soldiers (hopefully without being quite so shot at).

Italy, The Road to Ortona, by Brummbar
Part 1 - Crossing The Moro, 06-10DEC1943, Scenario #2234U
Part 2 - The Gully, 10-19DEC1943, Scenario #2221U
Part 3 - Taking Ortona, 19-29DEC1943, Scenario #2241U
      
jdrommel
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sat, 16 September 2006 14:37
Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 15 September 2006 22:52

Dear All,

I would like to repeat my desire for 1940 British Infantrymen, not North Africa or 1944 ones. I would always opt for the Churchill Tank, although I would concede that the Matilda is a close second. I certainly wouldn't be interested in the Valentine. I don't think that anyone has questioned the 25-Pounder for Artillery. Its the obvious, best choice.

The real reason why I am writing is that ever since I first read this post, I realised that no-one has raised the question of what were the best Scenario's to play for the British. I have compiled the following list of British & Commonwealth Scenarios. Please forgive me if I missed any:


Hello,
As you, i will be very pleased if there is a new expansion with british figures (infantrymen wearing european uniform (so, it can be used everywhere, asian front, african front and european front) associated with a Churchill tank and a 25 pounder Art. I think, this is the most reasonable. And if one day there is an expansion with french and italian figures, I will be very - very happy !
Another subject : Sorry for the advertising of my own scenarios but I have made some using british (or commonwealth) troops in some not very well known combat (but historic) :
2013u - Bretteville l'orgueilleuse (Canadians)
2188u - Opération Windsor (Canadians)
2219u - Ras El Madaouer (Australians)
2298u - Marsa El Brega (British)
2301u - El Mechili (Indians)
2317u - Green Beach (Canadians)
2336u - Buna (1) (Australians + US)
2342u - Buna (2) (Australians + US)
2390u - Opération Compass (British)
I have a lot of ideas concerning scenarios with british troops and I think that it's better to play them with british figures (one's more !)
Friendly,
Jdrommel (anglophilic french player).



Quote:


Quote:


      
D-Day Dawson
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sat, 16 September 2006 19:50
A British expansion should focus on the North African campaign - the major theatre largely neglected thus far - and so any tanks featured in the release should be of a type that featured prominently during this time.
      
Sniper
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sat, 16 September 2006 21:32
Amen, it should be a Med/North African expansion with British Mini's. That way we could make better use of the desert board and the terrain expansion.

[Updated on: Thu, 28 September 2006 23:45]

      
Mr & Mrs Guderian
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sun, 17 September 2006 12:12
Dear jdrommel,

Please don't apologise for listing your scenarios. I especially liked the idea of some "Bloody" Buna games. If I remember my history this battle was mostly characterised by physically carrying everything across impassably long supply-lines, through endless mud, in order to capture hidden strong-points in swamps. It made sense at the time.

I didn't select anything in French, Italian and Spanish, because, regretably, I don't speak those languages. More importantly I was writing in the English language section of the forum. This obviously meant losing a lot of good stuff, and some excellent ideas, like yours.

If ever Days of Wonder do publish a booklet of British/Commonwealth scenarios, I hope that they include some of these non-English scenarios. It would seem only fair under the circumstances as they are as good as anything the English-speaking scenarios have to offer.

I think this gives me an idea. All but one expansion has included lots of terrain tiles. There are currently more of these than can easily be used. If everyone buys two sets of everything to play the Overlord games then there are twice as many than that. So:

Maybe Days of Wonder could leave out new or extra terrain tiles (quite expensive) and produce a large Booklet with all the Scenarios from the Front with British/Commonwealth battles including the ones not written in English. If Italian figures are to be included in the expansion (maybe, maybe not) then the booklet could also include scenarios pitting Italians against British/Commonwealth.

Does anyone like this idea?
      
Mr & Mrs Guderian
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sun, 17 September 2006 12:48
Dear D-Day Dawson,

The major theatres for British/Commonwealth troops neglected by most people are:

France, 1940 - Perhaps the most significant. The Fall of France was the first real campaign fought by the British Army in WW2. It is this defeat that led to all the other disasters and victories.

Sicily & Italy, 1943-1945 - Perhaps the most international at times and often the muddiest and most drawn-out. Monte Cassino, for instance, was one of the biggest battles in the war for Western Armies.

The Far East, 1941-1945 - Perhaps the largest and most forgotten theatre. It included Commonwealth troops from just about every corner of the globe.

Other significant theatres include Norway, Iraq, Syria, Ethiopia, Greece & Crete, to name a few. I would also say that Germany, 1945, is quite neglected. It would seem that most people seem to think the war ended with Market-Garden and the Battle of the Bulge. Actually, Western Armies still had to fight their way into Germany, let alone across it. The Germans didn't give up in the West untill quite late and then only in order to try to rescue the other half of the country from the Russians.

North Africa is actually quite well covered so far. 3 of the 14 Authorised Scenarios and 17 of the 46 Unauthorised ones are North African Scenarios. I do appreciate that the war in the desert is very compelling. The Desert Fox, 8th Army, El Alamein will probably always retain their romance. A gentlemans war with plenty of space for small forces to move around in, with no SS or Civilians to clutter the place up. But the campaigns were only fought as a result of the Fall of France. It was a side-show that gained prominance as the only place Churchill could keep the British War-Effort alive.

The majority experience was in Europe and the Far East.

I would also point out that with the advent of the Pacific Theatre expansion, the Korean War is now possible with battles like Imjin River.
      
Mr & Mrs Guderian
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Sun, 17 September 2006 13:01
Dear D-Day Dawson,

By the way, did you ever read a comic called Battle (I think).

It had a character that I remeber having your username. The plot was that he had an inoperable bullet lodged next to his heart, but still continued to fight all the way to the end of the war.

I used to read Warlord. My favourites were stories such as Kampfgruppe Falken and Union Jack Jackson.
      
ClosetGeek
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 02:37
jdrommel wrote on Sat, 16 September 2006 20:37

Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 15 September 2006 22:52

Hello,
As you, i will be very pleased if there is a new expansion with british figures (infantrymen wearing european uniform (so, it can be used everywhere, asian front, african front and european front) associated with a Churchill tank and a 25 pounder Art. I think, this is the most reasonable. And if one day there is an expansion with french and italian figures, I will be very - very happy !
Another subject : Sorry for the advertising of my own scenarios but I have made some using british (or commonwealth) troops in some not very well known combat (but historic) :
2013u - Bretteville l'orgueilleuse (Canadians)
2188u - Opération Windsor (Canadians)
2219u - Ras El Madaouer (Australians)
2298u - Marsa El Brega (British)
2301u - El Mechili (Indians)
2317u - Green Beach (Canadians)
2336u - Buna (1) (Australians + US)
2342u - Buna (2) (Australians + US)
2390u - Opération Compass (British)
I have a lot of ideas concerning scenarios with british troops and I think that it's better to play them with british figures (one's more !)
Friendly,
Jdrommel (anglophilic french player).



Bravo Jd !

You have posted, with much greater detail, my sentiments for supporting what I'd like to call a Commonwealth expansion.

Let's not call it the 'British' expansion as it may affect the understanding of the set's broader application to all theaters of WWII .

Everyone is pretty much aware of the Brits escape from France and their return, the North African campaign, and the South East Asian theater, however as Jd has pointed out, forces with 'British' kit operated over a wider range.

The Aussies helped the U.S. 'single-handedly' Razz fight in the Pacific theater after North Africa, the Kiwis went on to Italy, Indians in Italy (and S.E. asia?), Canadians of course in Europe (and again, Italy?), South Africans in N.A. and Italy, and I'm sure there's others I've missed (and I apologise for that).

Arty has to be the 25-pounder, no argument !

The tank; well the Churchill would win being seen as the best the Brits had in serious enough numbers, but after the desert campaigns, the Matilda was used by the Aussies in the island-hopping campaigns, where the heavier armour was preferred and poor-road speed was not an issue - particularly preferred when fitted with a flamethower !

That said, I feel that the tank choice should be based more on theater coverage rather the sentiment of 'best tank' (I can't believe I said that...) or sheer numbers ( remember the Red Army at one stage had the numbers but not as many guns Smile )

Cheers,
ClosetGeek
      
Brycie35
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 05:43
Mr & Mrs Guderian wrote on Sat, 16 September 2006 06:52



I would also say that some of the Battles featured in Scenarios From The Front should be turned into Authorised ones. Dunkirk, Crete, either Tobruk Sieges, Alam Halfa, and Monte Cassino would all make really good Single-Board Scenarios. Brycie35's version of El Alamein is a really good idea for the Overlord game. El Alamein is definately the turning point for the British during the War. There are plenty of forgotten battles in the Far East that could be used as well.




Thanks for the compliment Mr & Mrs Guderian! Wink
      
Epitaph
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 06:14
I'm all for the British for the next expansion as long as one of the types of badges has the old school canadian flag on it. Very Happy Go canucks! Cool
      
yangtze
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 10:12
Thanks for the British campaign list Mr. and Mrs Guderian Smile I humbly offer that you missed my 1940 Arras scenario 1665u, complete with the possibility of accidental friendly fire French v. English, as happened historically.

I think a British expansion would be most worthwhile given the range of scenarios on offer. Maybe the Brits could be packaged with the desert scenarios we're promised, and some additional Burma and 1940 scenarios.
      
Mr & Mrs Guderian
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 12:56
Dear ClosetGeek,

I thoroughly agree with your contention about the Commonwealth contributions. I think I said similiar things myself. Without the Commonwealth or the Colonies, Britain would not have been able to fight the War, let alone continue the War after the fall of France. I think that "British & Commonwealth" is fairer and more accurate. But to call a new Expansion just "Commonwealth" would be historically inaccurate and might not be as recognisable for a wider audience. It might not be as commercial in Europe and America without the identifying "British" bit.

I don't think that anyone would want to get into the Britain vs Commonwealth arguements left over from before, during and immediately after the War. It would be very ironic that the same arguements that almost wrecked the joint-defence of Great Britain, the British Empire and the Commonwealth, should also claim an Expansion Set for Memoir '44 approximately 60 years later.

I think that the issue of Tanks is always going to be a problem mostly because of the continual development by all sides throughout the entire war. For instance, if I was going to choose a Late-War Tank for the Germans it would have been a Tiger 1 or Panther. Certainly the Mark IV is very representative but I would have produced a model with armour skirting. The one currently being used for Memoir looks more appropriate to something like North Africa. I don't think that anyone can argue with the Sherman Tank for the Americans, even though there were other American Tanks, simply by virtue of the numbers produced.

But the arguement over Matildas vs Churchills is probably always going to be difficult. If you were going to use the Matilda, then its main use was in the Desert. For that you would need 8th Army figures in sand colour which would prevent them being used in European or SE Asian theatres. This means no Sword Beach, Arnhem, or Monte Cassino which seems silly. If you produced an 8th Army Expansion, the other half would have to be an Afrika Korps set instead of the Italians that some people would want. A great pity.

The Matilda II was used in France 1940, most notably in the counter-attack at Arras, but at that stage there were not very many Tanks in use compared to later in the War. 2,987 Matildas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_tank) were produced untill 1943 before the British switched to other types like the Churchill and the Sherman. If there was a Desert Expansion, I would have no arguement with the Matilda, but we would like a British & Commonwealth Expansion for the whole war. Additionally there were only 3 Australian variants with a total of only 30-50 Tanks converted out of the almost 3,000 Matilda's produced. I have seen a Matilda in the Imperial War Museum and it is very impressive looking, but it is not as imposing as the Churchill.

I don't know if Churchills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_Tank) were used in Burma, but they were used in the Desert and Europe. The record includes Dieppe (I'll admit this one doesn't help my case), Tunisia, Italy, D-Day, Normandy and NW Europe. There were 5,640 produced from 1941 onwards, about twice as many as the Matilda. The Churchill ceased being used after 1952, but I would imagine that most of the post-war Tanks were produced during the War.

All British Tanks suffered with massive problems, which is one of (but not the only) the reasons why American Tanks (Sherman, Grant, Lee, Stuart, Honey) were used in large numbers. There would be as much reason to use the Sherman model for the American forces as either the Matilda or the Churchill. But then just the ordinary Sherman currently being used in Memoir is good enough. There is no need for a Firefly version as it wouldn't be very noticeable and there weren't that many. It would be very sad, though, that a British Tank could not be used to represent British & Commonwealth forces.

Eventually, my contention is not on numbers, theatres or length of service, although I think that the Churchill wins on these points. It is simply for the aesthetic reason that it is so British. It was the pinnacle of British design towards the solely British idea of an Infantry Tank, with all the lateness, design flaws, unreliability, production problems, slowness, and underarmed that this implies. I can't think of anything more typical of British efforts during the War. I even like the name.

If ever Days of Wonder do produce a British & Commonwealth Expansion Set, then I imagine they will make their decision on purely commercial reasons. Maybe that will settle the Matilda vs Churchill question, but I doubt if it will be once and for all. Laughing
      
Mr & Mrs Guderian
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 12:58
Dear yangtze,

Oops! Sorry, missed another one.

This list is beginning to get very long.
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 13:00
Dear Epitaph,

What does the old school Candadian Flag look like?

Go Canucks!
      
ClosetGeek
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  Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 17:19
Mr & Mrs Guderian wrote on Tue, 19 September 2006 18:56

Dear ClosetGeek,

I thoroughly agree with your contention about the Commonwealth contributions. I think I said similiar things myself. Without the Commonwealth or the Colonies, Britain would not have been able to fight the War, let alone continue the War after the fall of France. I think that "British & Commonwealth" is fairer and more accurate. But to call a new Expansion just "Commonwealth" would be historically inaccurate and might not be as recognisable for a wider audience. It might not be as commercial in Europe and America without the identifying "British" bit...


Well put Smile - OK, that's the expansion title sorted !

Mr & Mrs Guderian wrote on Tue, 19 September 2006 18:56

...
I don't think that anyone would want to get into the Britain vs Commonwealth arguements left over from before, during and immediately after the War...



Again, I agree.
Mr & Mrs Guderian wrote on Tue, 19 September 2006 18:56

...
I think that the issue of Tanks is always going to be a problem ... the arguement over Matildas vs Churchills is probably always going to be difficult...

Eventually, my contention is not on numbers, theatres or length of service, although I think that the Churchill wins on these points. It is simply for the aesthetic reason that it is so British... I even like the name.

If ever Days of Wonder do produce a British & Commonwealth Expansion Set, then I imagine they will make their decision on purely commercial reasons. Maybe that will settle the Matilda vs Churchill question, but I doubt if it will be once and for all. Laughing



I cut out down the quote for as much as I like your intelligent post and think it's worth another read, I can't speak for everyone else Smile

I agree with the comments regarding the Sherman (sorry, I cut that bit out) and as mentioned, we have that already. So with the all things considered, I guess that puts the Churchill up for 'most representative' Smile

I believe there's a range of tank miniatures available almost to the same scale as Memoir 44, which I've seen but never bothered to note the name of, but don't suppose there's Matilda amongst them ?

Cheers,

CG
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 17:48
Mr & Mrs Guderian wrote on Tue, 19 September 2006 06:00

Dear Epitaph,

What does the old school Candadian Flag look like?

Go Canucks!



http://familyheritage.ca/Images/Red%20Ensign.gif

The Canadian Red Ensign. This was our national flag that was used up until 1967 I believe. While we were still a British colony. Very Happy
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Tue, 19 September 2006 17:57
Churchills were used by Russia too. Apparantly 258 were sent over as part of the lend-lease agreement. Some fought at Kursk. They were part of a few Heavy Guards Breakthrough regiments. There are some great pictures of them here.

So we could throw a few Churchills into some of the Russian scenarios!

Having said that, the Russians also got 3487 Valentines, 832 Matildas, 1233 Stuarts, 1200 Lee tanks, and 3600 Shermans, amongst a load of other stuff!
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Thu, 21 September 2006 19:33
Dear ClosetGeek,

There are plenty of manufacturers of lead miniatures that sell Matilda II's. In the UK one of the most widely known are Heroics & Ros. Another is Irregular Miniatures. They both have 1/300th or 6mm models that will almost certainly feature Matilda's.

In the meantime, here is a picture of the Matilda I saw in the Imperial War Museum. I first saw it when I was a small boy and there was none of the blue paint then:

http://www.ma.ic.ac.uk/~finn/Albums/War/slides/DSCF3388.JPG

It is quite an impressivly solid tank to stand next to. Quite low and looks like it skirts along the floor. I suppose that might be why they called this heavy tank from 1937 Matilda.
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Thu, 21 September 2006 19:36
Dear Epitaph,

Every day we learn something new. I never thought that Canada might have had any flag except the current Maple Leaf. I think this older one is going to stick in my mind a bit.

Thats a really nice flag. Very colourful. Apart from the end of the whole British Colony thing, its a shame it had to change.
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Thu, 21 September 2006 19:38
Dear yangtze,

The Russians used everything. I'm surprised they had room for all those T-34's, BT's, KV's and JS's.
      
Dasher
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  Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Thu, 21 September 2006 20:56
I am a great fan of diversifying the mix, so I would support both a French Army Expansion and an Italian Army Expansion, as well. I wrote an Italian expansion for the Up Front game from Avalon Hill, so I am an obvious fan, and I don't think thee French get nearly as much credit as they deserve.

However, back on-topic, I would REALLY love to see the British Expansion. I wouldn't even mind foregoing new rules, I'd be happy just having the figures.

Darion Leonidas
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 22 September 2006 01:01
From "True Canadian Amazing Stories: D-Day"by Tom Douglas
<<A few days before June 6, General Crerar presented all Canadian units with a new Canadian flag, the Red Ensign, as their battle standard. No longer would Canadian troops head into battle under the Union Jack.>>

My selfish reasons to prefer the Matilda tank.
1- Matildas where used from the beginning of the war, early scenarios would look odd with a Churchill, while late scenarios look well with the Shermans we already have.
2- Matildas are smaller than Churchills, hex space is at premium when using 4 tanks.
3-Very selfish: I will buy some Churchills to replace 1 Matilda for elite tank units (have some PzIVH and JagdPanzer IV for the Germans and some KV-2 and SU-85 for the Russians)
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 22 September 2006 09:56
Dear Darion Leonidas,

I think the French do need to be represented, as well. Unfortunately, unlike in WW1, France surrendered quite quickly, something that wasn't supposed to happen. Fortunately, however, French Soldiers carried on fighting throughout the entire War, as anyone who has visited Les Invalides has discovered (North Africa, Syria, Italy, France, to name a few places).

An idea might be to have a French Expansion at some point with French Soldiers as one half and Partisans/Resistance as the other. It would seem an appropriate pairing. The Partisans could also be used in Eastern Front scenarios. They could have Cossack Cavalry instead of Tanks and Artillery. That might be fun.

I would like to see the Italians appear in the same expansion as the British. Both sides fought each other for about three years before Italy surrendered. Italian Soldiers also carried on fighting just like the French. Its a funny old world.

I agree. I also just want the figures. Its a real loss. I like the American, Russian, and German ones, but it would be nice if I could use the figures representing my own country. An interesting fact is that out of all the major combatants of WW2 only Britain (& the Commonwealth!) was in it continuously from the very beginning to the very end. I'm obviously excluding Japan as their participation wasn't official until the attack on Pearl Harbour.
      
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 22 September 2006 10:34
Dear red_zebra

The new Canadian Flag - Wow, I never knew that. Did you know that James Doohan, "Scotty" from Star Trek, was a Canadian who fought at Juno Beach on D-Day. He was wounded later that night:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Doohan#Military_service

MY selfish reasons for the mighty Churchill:

1. Pre-War designs like the Matilda and the Hurricane were replaced as soon as possible. Late-war scenarios would look very odd with the Matilda. The Sherman was a reasonable Tank but it is an American one. It would be much more reasonable to have a British Tank and there isn't one more British than the Churchill.

2. I am quite positive that the manufacturers will shift things so that the required number of tanks/infantry/artillery will fit the available hex-space. They have undoubtedly already done it with the Germans, Americans, Russians and Japanese sets. Its curious that this should be considered a reason when the three main components for the game (Infantry/Tanks/Artillery) are all on three entirely different scales.

3. Very selfish - The Matilda is the British Tank of the Desert, but the Churchill is the British Tank of the entire war. Frankly the Churchill means more. Like you said, its a big, mean Tank - and it was produced in greater quantity and served in more places.

When the British thought "Tank" during the war, the Churchill is what they meant. Thats why they give it the name. The Matilda is what HM Treasury allowed the British to think BEFORE the war. It was decisions like Matilda, or at least the thoughts behind those decisions, that left us almost completely unprepared for the Germans. We made the best of what we had because we had to. Matildas mean a long series of costly disasters to me.

I have to ask you, would the German Fans like being made to use Panzer IIs or IIIs in their game, which are the German Matilda equivalents? I think not. Can you imagine refighting Kursk with Panzer IIIs? No, because everyone wants Panzer IV's, Panthers and Tigers. So why refight Arnhem or D-Day with Matilda's?

If there is ever a Desert Expansion, then I will be arguing for the Matilda, hands-down. But this is the British & Commonwealth Expansion we want and it has to be the Churchill.

In the meantime, here are some great pictures of Churchills:

http://freespace.virgin.net/shermanic.firefly/chmcwide.jpg

http://www.warbirdpictures.com/ATC/ATC-BritishChurchill-1.jpg
      
yangtze
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 22 September 2006 14:39
Churchill every time.
      
Sniper
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Re:Another plea for the British as expansion 6 Fri, 22 September 2006 19:06
I would vote for any tank other than a Sherman. With a slight perference for Crusaders or Grant/Lee tanks for early war scenarios.

[Updated on: Fri, 22 September 2006 19:07]

      
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