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Quizoid
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Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 01:33
Wooded terrain "blocks the line of sight." But, examples only seem to show people trying to shoot -through- woods. If a unit is in the woods (surrounded by countryside), can they be hit by a ranged attack?

In regards to elevated terrain, what's ment by "blocks line of sight except from an adjacent elevated terrain of the same hight." Does this imply that a lone hill blocks line of sight on all six sides? Other questions: Can archers "shoot uphill" at enemies from afar? Can archers shoot across two hexes to another elevated terrain of the same hight?
      
tastic
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 02:02
A unit positioned in wooded terrain is visible and susceptible to attack unless there is something else in the way blocking LOS such as more wooded area, other units that block LOS, and other terrain the blocks LOS.

a lone hill does block LOS from all six sides. however, a unit sitting on that hill is susceptible to attack from all units that can legally attack it. you see infantry sitting on elevated terrain. your adjacent infantry can attack it.

I'm at work and don't have my rulebook, so this is from memory. i might be incorrect
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 02:48
Correct. The terrain that a unit is standing on does not block LOS for other units. So if you have a unit on a forest and nothing else blocks the LOS, enemy units may target it. However, firing into the forest would limit their base battle dice to two. Int he case of ranged attack though, this doesn't effect them since they already roll at a base of 2 dice.

Similarly, a unit that is sitting on a lone hill can also be attacked by units around it.

What it means by "except from adjacent elevated terrain" is that if two units are on linked hills, then there is nothing blocking the LOS - it is considered the plateau effect. However, in this game a unit attacking from one hill to another hill is still limited to rolling only 3 battle dice.
      
Quizoid
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 07:49
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 18:48



What it means by "except from adjacent elevated terrain" is that if two units are on linked hills, then there is nothing blocking the LOS - it is considered the plateau effect. However, in this game a unit attacking from one hill to another hill is still limited to rolling only 3 battle dice.


Can anyone think of an example in which this "plateau effect" would do something?
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 08:53
Quizoid wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 00:49

ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 18:48



What it means by "except from adjacent elevated terrain" is that if two units are on linked hills, then there is nothing blocking the LOS - it is considered the plateau effect. However, in this game a unit attacking from one hill to another hill is still limited to rolling only 3 battle dice.


Can anyone think of an example in which this "plateau effect" would do something?

I don't follow what you are asking.
      
Bilben04
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 14:41
ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 19:48


What it means by "except from adjacent elevated terrain" is that if two units are on linked hills, then there is nothing blocking the LOS - it is considered the plateau effect.


Are you sure about this? I ask because that's not what the rule actually says. I mean, in addition to not using the plateau effect phrase, it says line of sight is not blocked "from adjacent elevated terrain". It seems to me you are assuming the "to elevated terrain" part.

Personally, I hope your interpretation is correct and the rules are just poorly worded here. Otherwise, it leads to situations where line of sight can be open in one direction and blocked in another.

If you don't follow me, here's an example. A unit of archers is on an elevated terrain hex and at 2 hex range is a unit of enemy crossbows in an open hex. Between them is another hex of elevated terrain. As the rule is written, the archers should have line of sight to the crossbows, as their line of sight comes "from adjacent elevated terrain". But the crossbows would not have line of sight to the archers, because their line of sight comes from open countryside!

That to me doesn't seem right at all, but it's what I would conclude from a literal reading of the elevated terrain rule.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 14:56
That is not what I am saying and hope that is not what I implied. Both units have to be on elevated terrain in order for them to see each other. If one unit is on elevated terrain and the other is not, and they have elevated terrain in between them, then neither should be able to see each other. That is the way it is in the other C&C games and I beleive that is what it is saying here.

In the example, both units are on a hill (the one on the right on page 63 - hard to tell - but both are on hills in this example). So they are both elevated and both adjacent.
      
Quizoid
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 15:52
ColtsFan76 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 06:56

That is not what I am saying and hope that is not what I implied. Both units have to be on elevated terrain in order for them to see each other. If one unit is on elevated terrain and the other is not, and they have elevated terrain in between them, then neither should be able to see each other. That is the way it is in the other C&C games and I beleive that is what it is saying here.

In the example, both units are on a hill (the one on the right on page 63 - hard to tell - but both are on hills in this example). So they are both elevated and both adjacent.



This is true, but there is no example that shows three hills in a row, and two archer units with a hill between them. I suppose this would be the case in which and adjacent hill does not block line of sight.

This would also imply that in a chain of four hills, with an archer on each side, they could NOT see eachother, as only the first hill wouldn't block line of sight, but the second hill away would be non-adjacent and would block line of sight.
      
Quizoid
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 15:54
Bilben04 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 06:41

ColtsFan76 wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 19:48


What it means by "except from adjacent elevated terrain" is that if two units are on linked hills, then there is nothing blocking the LOS - it is considered the plateau effect.


Are you sure about this? I ask because that's not what the rule actually says. I mean, in addition to not using the plateau effect phrase, it says line of sight is not blocked "from adjacent elevated terrain". It seems to me you are assuming the "to elevated terrain" part.

Personally, I hope your interpretation is correct and the rules are just poorly worded here. Otherwise, it leads to situations where line of sight can be open in one direction and blocked in another.

If you don't follow me, here's an example. A unit of archers is on an elevated terrain hex and at 2 hex range is a unit of enemy crossbows in an open hex. Between them is another hex of elevated terrain. As the rule is written, the archers should have line of sight to the crossbows, as their line of sight comes "from adjacent elevated terrain". But the crossbows would not have line of sight to the archers, because their line of sight comes from open countryside!

That to me doesn't seem right at all, but it's what I would conclude from a literal reading of the elevated terrain rule.


You are correct that this would be a literal interpretation of the rules. Thematically, it wouldn't be too horrible, as it would be difficult to shoot up hill over another hill. This terrain could really use some ranged examples.
      
Bilben04
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 16:13
Quote:

That is not what I am saying and hope that is not what I implied. Both units have to be on elevated terrain in order for them to see each other. If one unit is on elevated terrain and the other is not, and they have elevated terrain in between them, then neither should be able to see each other. That is the way it is in the other C&C games and I beleive that is what it is saying here.


Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. My example was meant to illustrate how the elevated terrain rules actuallly sound as written, as opposed to what you were saying.

Let me quote it: "An Elevated Terrain hex blocks line of sight, except from adjacent Elevated Terrain of the same height."

Now forget what you know about the Memoir '44 hill rules and just read what it says. It never says that the line of sight has to be going "to" a hex of elevated terrain. Only that it has to be coming "from" such a hex. Based on the wording, it sounds as if a unit on elevated terrain hex can ignore an adjacent hex of elevated terrain, regardless of what kind of terrain hex the target is in.

I'm not asserting that this is what the rules are intended to mean. I'm just saying that this is what they actually say and that, if they are meant to be as you interpret them, then they ought to be re-worded or clarified. I don't think there is any way a person who is unfamiliar with M'44 would interpret the elevated terrain rules the way you (and I) would.

[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 16:18]

      
Jude
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 18:42
I assumed that the rule meant that all elevated hill terrain hexes were like low plateaus. This simplified terrain height (rather than charts figuring LOS by height, distance, and side of hex) is commonly done in other wargames:

Basically, the hill is high enough to block LOS from the ground, but all hill(plateau) hexes are the same height (and mostly flat except for the edges), so anyone on one hill can see anyone else on another hill even if there is another hill in-between.

What I am wondering, though, is whether Wood hexes and other landmarks still block LOS if they are between two hill hexes, or if the hills let the unit see over other obstacles to another hill?

Jude
      
Quizoid
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 18:50
[quote title=Bilben04 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 08:13]
Quote:


I don't think there is any way a person who is unfamiliar with M'44 would interpret the elevated terrain rules the way you (and I) would.


I've never played any of the other Command and Colors games (O:
      
Quizoid
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 18:52
Jude wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 10:42

I assumed that the rule meant that all elevated hill terrain hexes were like low plateaus. This simplified terrain height (rather than charts figuring LOS by height, distance, and side of hex) is commonly done in other wargames:

Basically, the hill is high enough to block LOS from the ground, but all hill(plateau) hexes are the same height (and mostly flat except for the edges), so anyone on one hill can see anyone else on another hill even if there is another hill in-between.

What I am wondering, though, is whether Wood hexes and other landmarks still block LOS if they are between two hill hexes, or if the hills let the unit see over other obstacles to another hill?

Jude


There's nothing in the rules about that. So, as it stands, two archers on two hills with unit-occupied countryside between them cannot fire on one another.

I guess the hill isn't that high (O:
      
JMcL63
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 14 December 2006 23:27
Quizoid wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 17:52

There's nothing in the rules about that. So, as it stands, two archers on two hills with unit-occupied countryside between them cannot fire on one another.

I guess the hill isn't that high (O:

That is how LOS works yes: hills don't allow you to see over intervening obstacles, be they units or other terrain.

And I agree that the rules on p.63 could be confusing if you aren't familiar with M44 or C&C:A. But I think we can safely assume that the rules are supposed to work the same way they do in M44 and C&C:A. That is: if an area of elevated terrain consists of several hexes, then intervening elevated terrain hexes do not block LOS between units on different hexes of that area of elevated terrain. On the other hand: intervening elevated terrain hexes do block LOS between units on elevated terrain hexes that are not part of an area of adjacent elevated terrain hexes (ie. they are not on the same hill.

An example in the rules would've served to make this clear. Wink
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Fri, 15 December 2006 01:12
The difference here though is that if you are on elevated terrain, you still can only use a maximum of 3 dice even when battling a unit on an adjacent elevated terrain. This IS different than Memoir 44 and Battle Cry (but I don't remember the rule in Ancients).

Yes, a clarification of "seperate but equal" hills with units standing on them would have been helpful.
      
Jude
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Re:Forest and Elevated Terrain Thu, 05 April 2007 07:40
JMcL63 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 17:27

Quizoid wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 17:52

There's nothing in the rules about that. So, as it stands, two archers on two hills with unit-occupied countryside between them cannot fire on one another.

I guess the hill isn't that high (O:

That is how LOS works yes: hills don't allow you to see over intervening obstacles, be they units or other terrain.

And I agree that the rules on p.63 could be confusing if you aren't familiar with M44 or C&C:A. But I think we can safely assume that the rules are supposed to work the same way they do in M44 and C&C:A. That is: if an area of elevated terrain consists of several hexes, then intervening elevated terrain hexes do not block LOS between units on different hexes of that area of elevated terrain. On the other hand: intervening elevated terrain hexes do block LOS between units on elevated terrain hexes that are not part of an area of adjacent elevated terrain hexes (ie. they are not on the same hill.

An example in the rules would've served to make this clear. Wink



Did we ever get an official explanation of the "adjacent hill" questions? I did a search and found a lot of user discussion, but nothing from Richard Borg or the DOW people.

Jude
      
    
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